The following are compiled from testimonies of God-fearing Christians who are convicted to be truthful, as Jesus and the Bible demand of them. They were recounted first-hand to me.
Can the atheist or naturalist who deny the existence of God or supernatural phenomena claim that every single of these testimonies is false or mistaken, and that every one of the testifiers is a liar or misguided?
-
Hundreds of swarming Christmas beetles simultaneously fall to the ground on their backs and do not get up again, just as the pastor prays for the God-given authority of man over all nature in order to stop this disruption to the service. The entire church witnesses this miracle, including members of the church executive committee who later sign the pastor on.
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An elderly lady leaving church in tears because of the pain of her bent back of 38 years, is stopped by the pastor who proclaims that God is indeed faithful. He asks her if her pain is still there – “No”. And if she can stay on for the rest of the hymns – “Yes. I can.” And she stands straight up in full view of the entire church congregation.
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A young man’s heart stops for over half an hour due to anesthesia. The doctors test him and predict that he will not live through the night, will not awaken from his coma, and will have massive brain damage to the point of being a vegetable. The very next day, he awakens with full control of his body. The ECG shows no heart problems at all. The doctors are flabbergasted.
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A young woman, unsure of whether to accept her new suitor due to still having feelings for her ex, asks God for a speific sign: The suitor will give her something with an apple in it tomorrow. The very next day, he gives her a teddy bear… One that holds an apple.
-
After spending a whole night exorcising a possessed man (no 360-degrees head-turning involved outside of Hollywood), a Malaysian Christian studying in New Zealand seeks a sign froim God that the exorcism was successful: His wife in Malaysia will send him her very first letter to New Zealand from 9000 kilometres away, and it will arrive today. That very morning, the first person at the door was the mailman, with the letter in question.
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Seeking advice about how to know God’s will about relationship and marriage, the young man is asked by a church leader what a suitable sign would be. He answers that it would be a clear sign if his next job, out of the dozen applications that have been stewing for a month, sends him to Johor Bahru where his love interest is teaching. That very afternoon, he receives the phone call. They want a Science-educated individual who is good in English and who has worked for a magazine before - which fits him to a T. Not a single other job apllication responds for 6 months more. And the job is in Johor Bahru.
That last testimony is by me myself… And the second last is my father’s. So I double know that it isn’t fake or fudged.
And those are just a handful of the miracle healings, directly answered prayers, and other coincidences so improbable that they can’t be due to chance alone… A fraction of a the divine interventions taking place in churches, prayer meetings and personal cries to God every single day across the world.
Can the atheist dismiss every single one of these occurences as psycho-somatic healing, pure luck or fraud?
————————–
PS. I anticipate that some commentors will jump in with the red herring argument “Oh but so-called miracles and answered prayers happen in other religions too. So are you saying that their gods are just as real as the Christian God?”
To this I reply: “That’s a whole ‘nuther blog post, meanwhile thank you for conceding that gods DO exist (no matter what stripe they may be).”
Tags: atheism, Christianity, answered prayers, proof of God, testimony, experiental evidence, miracle, miracle healing
March 21, 08 at 7:00 pm
Each and every one of those is an example of a post hoc logical fallacy. Simply demonstrating a sequence of events does not demonstrate that those events had anything to do with each other.
March 21, 08 at 7:05 pm
Here’s an example of a study trying to causally link prayer and miracles: Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer:
March 21, 08 at 9:53 pm
Ah, but in every one of those cases, the prayer stating what would happen was made before the event actually happened, not after. rather than a ‘post hoc’ fallacy, it is instead a ‘pre hoc’
This contrast is what differentiates a winner in the stock market and a loser.
And as for the scientific study on prayer, a major neglect of the study is whether or not God willed that the patients be healed faster. God can save a hardened criminal’s life yet let a 5-year old die of cancer – it is up to Him which mother’s prayer goes answered, for purposes known only to Him.
March 21, 08 at 10:04 pm
Right – and that’s the same logic that self-professed “psychics” use in duping their clients.
It’s called superstition.
March 21, 08 at 10:35 pm
Quick question that’s related to miracles:
You do realize that magicians don’t really do magic or spells or whatever – that they just use tricks – right??
Or are you really just this gullible?
March 21, 08 at 10:59 pm
Which leads me back to the title of my post: Can you seriously disclaim every single testimony of every single Christian – a group of people who are supposed to seek the truth and be honest – as lies, fraud, hallucinations, coincidence, trickery or madness?
Are you bluntly accusing me, my father, my friends and pastors I know of intentionally lying and cheating – something which we believe will earn us condemnation and hell?
If I am gullible, you are shallow.
Here’s some postings for you, read them (if you can sit still long enough to) and tell me that I am a gullible moron who has no understanding of the concept of logic and rationale.
Easy 3 Steps to Why We Can Believe The Bible About Spirituality and Metaphysics
Historically Corroborated: Jesus Fulfilled 129 Messianic Prophecies Made in Isaiah 335 Years Earlier
Okay, now you can question my level of naivete with regards to magic tricks… If you still believe I am a foo’.
March 21, 08 at 11:07 pm
In each of the examples you gave there are a number of possible answers. Let’s take the first as an example. Either:
The person who recounted the story to you was lying.
The person who recounted the story to you told the partial truth but exaggerated the events.
The beetles really did fall, coincidentally at the same time as the Pastor spoke.
The beetles fell from the sky as the direct result of intervention from a higher being.
Perhaps all of these possibilities seem unlikely, but we know one of them must be true. Therefore, we have to assume the most likely is the case. It might be hard to believe that the person exaggerated their story or got the facts wrong, but this is far more likely than a higher being intervening on the swarming of beetles.
The mistake you seem to make is in seeing a miracle in every coincidence. Coincidences, by their nature are extremely unlikely, but they happen.
You might find it useful to know the standard test for a miracle, devised by David Hume:
“No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish.”
If the beetles story is not a miracle, it means the person who told you either lied, exaggeratted, was mistaken or witnessed a coincidence. All far likelier than a miracle.
March 21, 08 at 11:34 pm
“No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish.”
If the beetles story is not a miracle, it means the person who told you either lied, exaggeratted, was mistaken or witnessed a coincidence. All far likelier than a miracle.
As there was a church full of eyewitnesses, including a board of church executive committee members who later signed the pastor on partly due to the miracle, the lying/exaggerating/mistaken explanation is discounted.
As for coincidence… What is the probablility of all the beetles falling, all on their backs, and just when the pastor prays his prayer asking for a divine intervention along those lines?
Thus, Hume’s test would establish this case to be a miracle – it is far more likely some unseen power influenced the spontaneous, simultaneous fall of hundreds of beetles at jus the right time, than they all fell by pure random chance.
The supernatural intervention of a God is only ‘improbable’ or ‘impossible’ if one assumes from the start that God doesn’t even exist. Whereas Christians believe in a very real, active and listening God.
—————————————-
The mistake you seem to make is in seeing a miracle in every coincidence. Coincidences, by their nature are extremely unlikely, but they happen.
On the contrary, I look for the non-supernatural explanation for every event. It is only when the odds of something happening by pure chance become too improbable, that I bring supernatural explanations into the account.
As these intelligent, rational and educated scientists do: Physicists Believe in God (Or At Least a Creator or Designer): A Collection of Quotes
I contend that your mistake is to explain away every claimed miracle as a coincidence. From the offset, naturalists discount the possibility of the supernatural as ‘impossible!’
That runs contrary to the scientific method; whatever result an experiment gets, will be bludgeoned and massaged into fitting the pre-formed conclusion.
As the finale of this skit demonstrates: The Locked Tomb Mystery – Whodunit?
March 21, 08 at 11:35 pm
Okay – you’re gullible AND resort to baseless personal insults.
March 21, 08 at 11:36 pm
“No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish.”
If the beetles story is not a miracle, it means the person who told you either lied, exaggeratted, was mistaken or witnessed a coincidence. All far likelier than a miracle.
As there was a church full of eyewitnesses, including a board of church executive committee members who later signed the pastor on partly due to the miracle, the lying/exaggerating/mistaken explanation is discounted.
As for coincidence… What is the probablility of all the beetles falling, all on their backs, and just when the pastor prays his prayer asking for a divine intervention along those lines?
Thus, Hume’s test would establish this case to be a miracle – it is far more likely some unseen power influenced the spontaneous, simultaneous fall of hundreds of beetles at jus the right time, than they all fell by pure random chance.
The supernatural intervention of a God is only ‘improbable’ or ‘impossible’ if one assumes from the start that God doesn’t even exist. Whereas Christians believe in a very real, active and listening God.
—————————————-
The mistake you seem to make is in seeing a miracle in every coincidence. Coincidences, by their nature are extremely unlikely, but they happen.
On the contrary, I look for the non-supernatural explanation for every event. It is only when the odds of something happening by pure chance become too improbable, that I bring supernatural explanations into the account.
As these intelligent, rational and educated scientists do: Physicists Believe in God (Or At Least a Creator or Designer): A Collection of Quotes
I contend that your mistake is to explain away every claimed miracle as a coincidence. From the offset, naturalists discount the possibility of the supernatural as ‘impossible!’.
That runs contrary to the scientific method; whatever result an experiment gets, will be bludgeoned and massaged into fitting the pre-formed conclusion.
As the finale of this skit demonstrates: The Locked Tomb Mystery – Whodunit?
So I want to ask frankly and honestly: Did you consider the evidence and arguments for and against the existence of God and miracles before deciding whether miracles can or cannot happen?
I have, and you know my conclusion.
March 21, 08 at 11:37 pm
So Dan… Do point out where:
A) I insulted your person,
B) My perceived insult was baseless.
And I bet you didn’t bother to read what I posted, or you’d be less quick to insult my person as being gullible.
March 21, 08 at 11:39 pm
Lucy Lowe opts for every other possibility except a miracle because they are far more likely than a miracle. Put the other way round, a miracle is the LEAST likely possibility. That is exactly what a miracle is: the least likely coincidence BUT IT HAPPENED.
Dan, please don’t hide behind words like “superstition” and “gullible”. These are convenient labels that require little thinking apart from being able to remember how to spell them correctly. They don’t help in any discussion. Instead, it brings it down to the level of name calling.
March 21, 08 at 11:54 pm
Hi Simon,
To quote your original post:
“And those are just a handful of the miracle healings, directly answered prayers, and other coincidences so improbable that they can’t be due to chance alone… ”
I disagree with your assertion that these “miracles” could be too improbable for chance alone. Improbable events occur all the time. If a lottery were held everyday, every day there would be a winner, despite how improbable winning the lottery is.
The letter your Father received is a lovely story but to say “coincidentally, the leter arrived the next day” seems vastly more likely than to say “A God caused the wife to write a letter and a postman to deliver it the very next morning”. This story is certainloy not “so improbable that it can’t be due to chance alone” as you suggest.
But I see where we disagree:
“The supernatural intervention of a God is only ‘improbable’ or ‘impossible’ if one assumes from the start that God doesn’t even exist. Whereas Christians believe in a very real, active and listening God.”
I would say that your position means you want to see miracles, and it is a very natural thing for people to do. When we miss an elavtor by a few seconds or drop a butter covered knife on the floor we have a moment of frustration, as if the inanimate objects and events are conspiring against us. But of course, they aren’t. It’s purely chance.
None of the examples you have given here are miracles I’m afraid, but this isn’t something that should upset you. I assume you have faith in your God and faith requires no proof they say, so stop looking for miracles, have faith in your God and have a very lovely day
March 21, 08 at 11:57 pm
Correction to the last paragraph “none of the examples you have given here are proof of miracles”.
March 21, 08 at 11:58 pm
Dan Says: March 21, 08 at
Right – and that’s the same logic that self-professed “psychics” use in duping their clients.
It’s called superstition.
__________________________________________________________
Some would. I can only talk of myself.
I`ve had `strange xperiences` but I don`t claim to be `psychic`(it`s become acliche these days). To you they would be superstition.
To me they were something out of the world. It just happens that I happen to be somehow `gifted` in this as you call `superstition`.
But dammit, it`s too real. Things just happen as I predict they will. Give it whatever name you will, but it`s true.
March 22, 08 at 12:09 am
But dammit, it`s too real. Things just happen as I predict they will. Give it whatever name you will, but it`s true.
All of the time?!
March 22, 08 at 12:27 am
All of the time?! – Emphatically YES including the earthquakes, twin towers, deaths of individuals and so on. Maybe I got the `giftie` or `curse` from my mum. I dunno but tis there.
March 22, 08 at 4:25 am
LOL Sure. Whatever you say.
March 22, 08 at 6:51 am
Want to LOL more? The mossies believe that `Mahdi` Obama will be in the White House soon.
March 22, 08 at 10:09 am
[...] Do you believe in miracles? A blog I happened to stumble upon [...]
March 22, 08 at 11:49 am
Miracle of sorts:
http://www.rense.com/general13/koran666.htm
March 22, 08 at 4:33 pm
Did you know that Charleton Heston performed all his own miracles? LOL
March 22, 08 at 7:16 pm
Haha. That a good one by Charlie.
March 22, 08 at 9:54 pm
`Mahdi` Obama’ won’t make it. You may call me Edgar, Edgar Cayce, later.
March 22, 08 at 11:14 pm
If you liked that, here’s another good one.
March 22, 08 at 11:18 pm
Hi Scott,
Fascinating post.
The miracles that Jesus Christ performed convinced many that he is God. Resurrecting the dead, walking on water and his own resurrection and ascension to Heaven.
Some argue that miracles and supernatural experiences are just a perception of the mind. As in an event may be absolutely meaningless but because of the “programme” wired in your brains, you may interpret it as a miracle, act of God or coincidence.
Over the years, many have tried to explain away the miracles in the Bible by attributing them to scientific or “natural” causes. But most fall short in explaining the supernatural causes behind these naturally explained events. For instance, one explanation for the parting of the Red Sea is that it’s a natural occurence due to the wind and depth of the sea. But it does not convincingly reasons why the wind blew at that particular time.
Other critics have pointed out that Bible stories are hyped up in the tradition of holy books. A particular event is given a supernatural twist to show the power of an almighty. In ancient Egypt, it was common to only record the glorious victories of Pharaohs while ignoring the devastating losses and defeats.
Personally, God is supernatural. And until one has a supernatural experience, one will never truly understand the amazing power and glory of the story of Jesus Christ, that’s unique in history.
Although the story of a god coming down to earth to redeem a fallen man is also found in ancient religions. But the historical documentation of the life of Jesus Christ so far suggests that it is much more likely that He existed and did what He did as recorded in the Gospel.
To answer a question that you replied on my blog. You said that Jesus came to fulfil the law. This is correct. It means that he came to die for our sins as the ultimate sacrificial lamb as the wages of sin is death and all has fallen short of the glory of God. In doing so, He also abolished the law, as we now live under grace, restored to our original state of communion with God in Eden, atoned….
Happy Easter.
God Bless.
PS. I still can’t decide how to classify your blog and may start a new category under religion….
March 23, 08 at 2:06 am
More fun satire of God’s omniscience, miracles, and prayer:
The REALLY funny part is that I can picture Scott watching this video and not recognizing that it’s satire!! (oops, I gave it away)
March 23, 08 at 10:14 am
According to unofficial sources, in the past five years, one million Iranians, particularly young people and women, have abandoned Islam and joined Evangelical churches.
This phenomenon has surprised even the missionaries who carry out their activities in secret in Iran.
An Evangelical priest and former Muslim in Iran told Adnkronos International (AKI) that the conversions were “interesting, enthusiastic but very dangerous”.
http://europenews.dk/en/node/8613
March 23, 08 at 10:27 am
http://www.amazingchange.org/mormirapartredsea.htm
Exodus 14:21-31
“Moses held out his hand over the sea, and the LORD drove the sea back with a strong east wind. It blew all night and turned the sea into dry land. The water was divided, and the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with walls of water on both sides…..”
I will always have to wonder why the wind has to be employed to part the Red Sea. And that it needed to blow all night. My opinion is that Almighty God needs no roundabout way to effect this. The Red Sea should have parted instantly the moment Moses raised his hands.
That brings us to the question as to WHO was actually the “LORD” referred to in this ‘miracle’.
March 23, 08 at 10:37 am
We are building a religion
He`s calling you DUDE
March 23, 08 at 10:50 pm
Lucy Lowe, I hope you haven’t got Simon and Scott mixed up.
Dan, regarding “The REALLY funny part is that I can picture Scott watching this video and not recognizing that it’s satire! (oops, I gave it away)”: the only thing you have given away is that arguing against the person, trying to tear him down and using snide remarks is YOUR methodology. Don’t you have anything substantial? Btw, Scott was into satire even before he was ten, and wrote satirical stories before he went to university. Try to deal with the subject, won’t you?
March 24, 08 at 8:28 am
Well wits0, God has a way of using natural means to accomplish His will.
For example, if a family is in dire need of money to pay the rent or get kicked out, God might send a kind-hearted soul who just happened to feel the calling to donate a cheque. But I’ve never heard any testimonies of money inexplicably materializing on the table out of thin air, or the dishes becoming solid gold.
Likewise, I see no problem with reconciling the Big Bang with God commanding the universe into existence.
As the God-robot says to Bender in Futurama: “When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfellas
Or as the Jewish sages put it: If God provided indispiutable evidence that He exists, He would have negated faith.
March 24, 08 at 8:37 am
Lucy, do you personally believe that miracles actually possible or can actually occur? If so, what level of improbability or impossibility would it take to fit the definition of a miracle rather than a highly improbably set of coincidences?
After all, if the science is advanced enough, anything can be discounted as ‘naturally occuring though unlikely phenomena’.
(Inversely, if the faith is strong enough, anything can be counted as a miracle.)
——————–
As for Dan… No serious arguments from him, so apart from the purposes of having some baiting and fun, we can just ignore him as a CLICK HERE
March 24, 08 at 9:38 am
The name Rowan Williams is now well known. It belongs to the typical British
Muslim-Wannabe “bishop” of Canterbury, whose most recent headline-grabbing
statement was that England should accept a parallel Sharia legal system. This
is the same “bishop” who tried to debunk the Christmas story days before
Christmas,…
http://politicalmavens.com/index.php/2008/03/22/dont-hate-me-because-im-jewtiful/
March 24, 08 at 3:21 pm
Sorry – I didn’t know that I had to present a serious argument when you weren’t.
March 24, 08 at 3:30 pm
And besides, you did ask for responses from atheists, didn’t you?
March 24, 08 at 3:54 pm
And besides, you did ask for responses from atheists, didn’t you?
You got me there.
I should have specified that I was looking for intelligent responses. Thank goodness for Lucy Lowe.
March 24, 08 at 4:43 pm
Hello, anyone home? Check out the first two comments on this thread.
But yes, when I got responses back suggesting extreme gullibility, I gave up and just stuck around for my own humor. So sue me.
March 24, 08 at 5:28 pm
And I accused you of both shallowness and ignorance when you refused to even consider the fact that Christians are not all gullible, easily duped, totally unscientific morons who run screaming about doomsday at the slightest sign in the sky.
Those are global warming hysterians.
March 24, 08 at 6:01 pm
I didn’t say that Christians are all gullible. In fact, most Christians that I know wouldn’t conclude that your examples of miracles are so miraculous or believable at all. Oh they might believe that miracles are possible, but they also wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that such coincidences are more than just coincidences – that is, they still believe in the Christian God but aren’t gullible.
Yet, some Christians are gullible. Take you, for example.
March 24, 08 at 9:12 pm
Hi Dan,
Please provide your contact address. I’ve decided to take you at your word and sue you; my lawyer will contact you once you have provided your contact details.
Best wishes,
Jamie
March 24, 08 at 9:32 pm
Neat – and then when you’re done, I can file a counter suit for you thinking bad thoughts at me.
That would be fun.
March 24, 08 at 10:49 pm
You have to provide your contact address.
Also, I intend to sue you for libel as you are insinuating, in a public domain, that I am thinking bad thoughts about you without proof.
I await your correspondence.
Best wishes,
Jamie
March 24, 08 at 10:55 pm
Haha suing for bad thots. Man this has to be sent to moonbattery.com. On that there`s this OT but related item:
Ah, but there’s a problem with this “mutual respect of religions” idea, one which led the council overwhelmingly to vote down the resolution, 77-33. Critics pointed out that such a pact would recognize polytheistic religions, and that “would be unacceptable.” One opponent, Khaleel Al Khaleel, explained his vote against on the grounds that it would create a dangerous precedent for Muslims. “Some consider Buddhism, Qadianism and Baha’ism as religions. Can we make it obligatory for Muslims to respect these faiths and avoid criticising them?” Another member, Talal Bakri, noted that “if we approve the resolution it will be make it obligatory to recognise some religions and will facilitate establishing places of worship for them in Muslim countries.”
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/832
March 25, 08 at 12:08 am
Also, I intend to sue you for libel as you are insinuating, in a public domain, that I am thinking bad thoughts about you without proof.
LOL
March 25, 08 at 1:16 am
I am still waiting for your contact details sir.
Best wishes,
Jamie
March 25, 08 at 1:39 am
Right – and I’ll counter-counter sue you back for, um… oh who cares. I’ll make up something.
You know, looking around on the other blog posts, I’m sorry I didn’t realize that this site was spoofing religion. I actually thought that you guys were the real thing. Shows you how slow I am to get a joke.
On the other hand, maybe you’re not joking. That’s a scary thought.
And the fact that I can’t tell says something profound about how absolutely stupid some parts of the Christian mindset are.
March 25, 08 at 5:13 am
Problem with discussing religion is that some people have to go for the jugular. Meaning, X must attempt to demolish Scott absolutely so that he is right. Hahaha! It can’t be done.
March 25, 08 at 7:54 am
`And the fact that I can’t tell…That’s a scary thought.`
Conan gets angry when somebody else sits on his favourite spot.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080324031036.hpe4uyox&show_article=1&image=large
March 25, 08 at 8:47 am
Dan, why do you consider me as gullible or even stupid? The reason I quoted the testimonies above is because they are exteremely improbable.
If I quoted testimonies of “Yesterday I saw a rainbow and I knew it must be God giving me a sign!” you could say I’m overenthusiastic and underwhelming.
Or if I were all post hoc like you claimed I am, I would be quoting cases where something cool happened and AFTER THAT the pastor says “It’s a miracle!”. There’s nothing out of the ordinary about that.
But what I quoted were all pre hoc, that is, the pastor says something AND THEN that exact thing happens.
Can it really be pure coincidence the twentieth time he does something like that? I seriously doubt that most Christians would find the testimonies I listed completely mundane and un-special.
This is why I said you are shallow – you assume that I am some head-in-the-clouds, starry-eyed brainwashed sheep just because I say I believe in miracles.
You completely neglected to read any of my posts that I provided links to, where I demonstrate clear logic and rationale in accepting or rejecting something as a ‘miracle’.
You completely discount the possibility that I am informed, skeptical, cynical and scientifically grounded when I make the conclusion that some things are just too improbable to be attributed to pure chance.
So on that note… What could possibly pass as a miracle or non-coincidental answered prayer to you?
I’m guessing NOTHING… Because in your mind, you’ve already decided that God and miracles cannot exist before even looking at the evidence. All the evidence in the world thus becomes wrong to your eyes.
March 25, 08 at 12:53 pm
Perchance it simply means that you as an individual are not particularly bright, Dan. It is okay to admit your failings
March 25, 08 at 5:03 pm
Extremely improbable? Let’s take the first example you gave.
This pastor was praying for a sign. Many pastors pray for signs, many times over. The fact that on one occasion out of thousands, something happened that could loosely be described as a sign, is not only not extremely improbable, it is reasonably following what might be considered statistically inevitable.
That’s gullibility for you.
March 25, 08 at 5:17 pm
That assumes that the pastor prays for Christmas beetles to be smited on a weekly basis… Which the congregation would be quick to point out to him.
That’s the clear difference between winning the lottery (low probability but eventually will happen because of endless repeating) and a divine answer to a specific prayer (low probability, yet manages to happen the one time the prayer is made).
And what scientific device or natural phenomena, pray tell, exists that can knock hundreds of flying and crawling beetles on their backs within seconds and keep them on their backs with no visible, audible or smellable signs or effects on other living creatures in the vicinity?
Just admit it – you patently refuse to believe that divine intervention can possibly exist.
If God Himself appeared to you in burning cloud and rock-melting lightning and chided your stubbornness to your face, you’d dismiss it as a hallucination, a trick, an alien, a fairy, Karl Rove… Anything but God.
March 25, 08 at 5:33 pm
No, according to your passage, the pastor wasn’t praying for Christmas beetles at all.
This is the same thing as how psychic frauds work – they make extremely vague predictions, and the listeners then look for anything that could possibly make those predictions appear believable. Then, when they find something that loosely fits the vague prediction, they convince themselves that the psychic or pastor knew what they were talking about.
Again, that’s gullibility for you.
March 25, 08 at 6:33 pm
That doesn’t count?
To be precise, the swarming disruption caused him to pray for the God-given authority of man over nature (Genesis 1) to stop the beetles from disturbing his sermon.
March 25, 08 at 8:22 pm
just as the pastor prays for the God-given authority of man over all nature in order to stop this disruption to the service
How many hundreds of times do pastors ask for “a sign,” and how many hundreds of ways could there be “a disruption to the service”? Many times many. That’s hardly miraculous.
March 25, 08 at 8:36 pm
I’d like to remind you, Dan, to provide your contact details. You still have not done so. We cannot proceed to court unless we have some way of contacting you, and also of determining where we should prosecute you.
Best wishes,
Jamie
March 25, 08 at 8:39 pm
Jamie,
Ha… no, whether you’re joking or you actually imagine that a judge or lawyer would refrain from laughing at you, I’m not sharing my contact details here. Not that they’re difficult to find if you know where to look on the web…
Seriously though – that joke has grown stale.
March 26, 08 at 1:13 am
Dan,
Like I mentioned previously, perhaps you aren’t as bright you make yourself out to be.
And I agree, your continued refusals to give proper answers is a joke that went stale many posts ago.
March 26, 08 at 1:43 am
Jamie,
Are you by any chance special?
March 26, 08 at 2:03 am
Jamie,
I “get” Scott and his gullibility. What I don’t get is you – I can’t tell whether we’re enjoying a joke together, or if you are serious (in which case I guess I’ve just been laughing AT you).
Could you clarify please?
March 26, 08 at 2:32 am
Hi Dan,
Perhaps you don’t know enough not to discriminate against anyone just because they might have special needs. Do educate yourself in the anti-discrimination laws in your country.
I cannot volunteer a free clarification; you have have not clarified anything in response to Scott’s post.
Furthermore, you haven’t provided any contact information. Stop wasting my lawyer’s time.
March 26, 08 at 2:41 am
Okay – so joking WITH me it is.
Where do you come up with this stuff though, and not break form? I could never keep the “really, I’m serious” shtick going for so long.
For instance, pretending that I didn’t explain why Scott is incredibily gullible, as though ignoring my serious comments, and his closed-mindedness, would make them go away.
Or pretending that my question of whether you had special needs was discriminatory.
And it’s amusing (for a moment) how you’re not giving up the lawyer joke.
March 26, 08 at 2:53 am
Thinking it over for a few more minutes, perhaps the best one is the lawyer joke though:
- I say “You were thinking bad thoughts about me, so I’m going to sue you.” Of course this is a joke since no one in their right mind would sue over what someone else was thinking, which is unprovable and ridiculous. Hence, I was making a joke.
- You reply “I’m going to sue you,” and play along with the joke.
- Then, you keep pretending that you’re serious, asking for my contact info. Aside from the fact that sharing personal contact info over chat discussions is very unwise, which isn’t funny, you were asking someone that you were joking about suing for their assistance in suing them. “Here, take my money, sir!” LOL That’s some damn good comedy right there.
- And, true to form, you’re keeping it up. For a moment there I thought you were serious, which suggests that you would have zero clue as to how the world works. But of course it looks like you’re joking.
Very funny!
March 26, 08 at 8:47 am
How many hundreds of times do pastors ask for “a sign,” and how many hundreds of ways could there be “a disruption to the service”? Many times many. That’s hardly miraculous.
That’s because you are unfamiliar with (i.e. totally ignorant about) Christian scripture.
The pastor specifically quoted Genesis 1:28 – “Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” He used the specific verse about living creatures against the living creatures that were disturbing the service.
I will be as exact as I can be: The pastor specifically prayed against the beetle swarm, using the specific authority God gave man over nature, as specifically written in Genesis 1:28.
Why do you assume this particular pastor prays against everything, everytime he steps onto the pulpit? I already said that if he launched ineffective prayers every Sunday, the jaded congregation would make the exact same conclusion as you do – that he finally ‘got lucky’.
(And besides, you proud but ignorant atheists have no understanding of the fact that Spirit-led Christians do not simply pray for miracles on a whim, but are always led by God’s prompting to do so – when they try it on their own, they inevitably fail.)
And you still cannot explain what techonology exists that is so incredibly advanced it can knock out every beetle as if by ‘magic’.
And you still need to discount the other testimonies I included, and the testimonies of every other event more improbably than those, to prove that no such thing a answered prayers or miracles exist.
On that note, it must be hard being an atheist – having to prove that God is not hiding in every corner of the universe, under every rock and tree, before you can know that God does not exist instead of believe by faith that God does not exist.
March 26, 08 at 9:01 am
Jamie, maybe you should lay off of Dan. He’s one of those sorts who is an expert at mocking, taunting and insulting people… But not so great at taking what he dishes out.
Come to think of it, why am I bothering to apply rational arguments when they bounce off his Armour of Not-Magical-But-Something-Else Logic Deflection? I should skip right to the sarcasm.
Name: Dan
Alignment: Whatever is the opposite of Christians
Class: Completely lacks any
Race: Baiter, if his religion baiting is anything to judge by
Strength: 18 (all out offensive assault force)
Intelligence: 12 (smart mouthed but no original arguments)
Dexterity: 18 (able to avoid addressing any valid points aimed at him)
Constitution: 1 (very thin skinned whiner who can’t take ribbing)
Wisdom: 1 (automatically assumes everyone who doesn’t share his views is an uneducated moron)
Charisma: 1 (resorts to insults and mockery by the third comment)
March 26, 08 at 1:45 pm
Once again Dan, I think I have to repeat that you might not be as bright as you make yourself out to be, but you are quite good at evading issues. It is not a good practice to jump to conclusions so quickly. I may not have been referring to you calling Scott gullible.
Anyway, you haven’t properly answered the questions Scott has posed to you, and you are trying to evade the topic by claiming I am joking. Once again, you are jumping to conclusions.
Dan, you seem to be showing that you really aren’t as bright as you make yourself out to be.
March 27, 08 at 2:06 pm
Dan,
Why did you run away?
Left behind,
Jamie
March 27, 08 at 4:39 pm
Sorry, I was a bit busy with work, and harassing you silly folks was getting boring. You see, I really do think that Scott’s posts are ridiculous – to the point where I only gave serious responses a brief chance here and there. And, Scott is right on one thing – after that, I’ve just been playing games with you.
After a while though, even baiting morons gets old.
March 27, 08 at 4:45 pm
i.e. He admits defeat.
To morons.
That has got to sting.
March 27, 08 at 5:52 pm
What, me upset for not getting through to you? Why is that not your loss?
March 27, 08 at 7:01 pm
Actually, that too is pretty damn funny… I’ve been having a good laugh at your expense, not hiding it or anything, and you think that that means “you win.”
Are you a clown or something, if “laughing at you” means “you win”?
March 28, 08 at 12:29 am
Sigh…Dan ran away and abandoned the fight. He didn’t even provide his contact details so that I could sue him…
Why did you have to run away and disappear, Dan? Why? Where have you gone?
Left behind,
Jamie
March 28, 08 at 8:33 am
Are you a clown or something, if “laughing at you” means “you win”
Works for me, if the laughing boy’s chortling sounds very hollow and forced.
Otherwise, one could shake his head and laugh every time someone tries to bring up a valid point, then walk away and claim victory. I believe we politely call such people ‘nutters’.
(Dan doesn’t get it – his continuous claims of ‘victory’ and being all merry and tickled over ‘winning’ make him sound desperate and impotent – in the non-Viagra way of course.)
March 28, 08 at 3:20 pm
his continuous claims of ‘victory’ and being all merry and tickled over ‘winning’
Haha… I didn’t claim that at all, just as the clown’s audience doesn’t claim victory at a show. LOL
March 28, 08 at 7:51 pm
I like this one:
March 28, 08 at 8:22 pm
Nah… this one is better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQUR2tvuQhI
LOL
March 29, 08 at 1:21 am
Dan…where have you gone? I know it is hard, but why did you up and run just like that?
Left behind,
Jamie
March 29, 08 at 2:52 am
What the heck are you talking about Jamie?
March 29, 08 at 8:25 am
Sorry that one isn`t as good as the book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dice_Man
March 29, 08 at 6:03 pm
Dan…come back! We miss you! Where did you run away to?
Sigh…if only Dan had not run away…please come back Dan!
Left behind,
Jamie
March 29, 08 at 6:20 pm
Awww tis the weekend, sooo it`s Saturday Night Fever
March 29, 08 at 9:31 pm
hutchrun,
Dice Man sounds interesting, but it’s based on someone who does so because he’s bored and wants to make things interesting. Scott’s logic of prayer (spoofed in that latest YouTube clip) is much more funny, IMO.
March 30, 08 at 9:45 am
Even funnier is this pious guy, who after praying fo God`s intercession came out of the temple and pumped his last dollar in the lottery. He won half a million. That`s from real life experience.
April 11, 08 at 8:22 am
Hm. They’re all true? Curious how not a single one of them has a link to a news story, or even to a church website. But let’s say that these miracles escaped every single bit of media/sectarian interest. Or that the churches in question are unable to have a website.
Then provide details for verification: Names, dates, places. Just for the first one will do nicely: A pastor in some unnamed church asks for a sign. What pastor? What church? Who are the witnesses to the event? How do we contact these people? BTW, What do you call a swarm? Two? Two thousand? Where did these beetles land? How much time, exactly, elapsed, after the preacher asked for the sign before the beetles landed? One second? Two? A minute? More? What species of Christmas beetle was it? If that’s not known, what color were they? Where did the beetles fall from? Did they just appear in mid-air and drop, and die?
Oh… And do you know if the church had been exterminated recently?
Oh–the anesthesia claim. Sorry, but that’s not unusual. My maternal unit is an anesthetist, and people have weird responses to the chemicals all the time. A lot of things can put a wrench in the works, like unexpected allergic reaction to the anesthetic or latent drug/alcohol/food effects in the system. These things can be anywhere from an annoyance for the anesthetist to fatal to the patient, and everything in between. Sometimes, they can seem worse than they actually end up being–and would be worse if they’re not handled carefully. Notice there’s no mention of efforts the staff was making to counteract the problem, but I’m sure they were doing everything they could to save the person’s life. How insulting to millions of hard-working doctors and nurses to assume that they wouldn’t do everything in their power, look for every possible way, to do that.
Those will do for now. Please provide the necessary information about the first story (or any of the others), so that the claims can be verified. This is necessary because the burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim. A claim for miracles existing (a positive claim) has been made. It is up to the claimant in such a case to provide evidence supporting the claim.
April 11, 08 at 9:25 am
Wll for the first story, i’d have to ask the pastor to recount to me all the details and contacts you asked for – I only heard it from him firsthand the last time.
I’ll also record a video of him swearing its veracity on his life or ask him to sign a binding contract to the tune of $5 million if he turns out to be lying.
Then I could search for and interview separately at least ten people who witnessed said miracle. I’ll repeat the video, sworn testimony and binding contract for them too.
By that point, I’ll have exceeded the research for a News At Eleven type headline story by several orders of magnitude.
Heck, by that point, I’ll have exceeded the amount of verifiable proof that the IPCC has for global warming!
In the meantime, I’ll give you all the details about the last testimony:
Name of witness: Scott Thong (me)
Contact: This blog
Place where prophetic utterance was made: Excel Point Community Church (Penang, Malaysia)
Employer that made the call: Penerbitan Pelangi Sdn Bhd (Malaysia)
Independent witnesses: Tan Hui Ping (at church) and Jovelynna (under employer)
The reason that none of them have links to news stories is that they are either personal events (nothing for the enws crews to film) or happened decades ago.
———————
How insulting to millions of hard-working doctors and nurses to assume that they wouldn’t do everything in their power, look for every possible way, to do that.
Sorry, but doctors are already insulting their own profession by murdering perfectly save-able patients:
If Abortion is Legal, So Should Infanticide and Child Murder Be
In the Netherlands, 31 percent of pediatricians have killed infants. A fifth of these killings were done without the “consent” of parents.
FIRST, Dutch euthanasia advocates said that patient killing will be limited to the competent, terminally ill who ask for it.
Then, when doctors began euthanizing patients who clearly were not terminally ill, sweat not, they soothed: medicalized killing will be limited to competent people with incurable illnesses or disabilities.
Then, when doctors began killing patients who were depressed but not physically ill, not to worry, they told us: only competent depressed people whose desire to commit suicide is “rational” will have their deaths facilitated.
Then, when doctors began killing incompetent people, such as those with Alzheimer’s, it’s all under control, they crooned: non-voluntary killing will be limited to patients who would have asked for it if they were competent.
And now they want to euthanize children.
In the Netherlands, Groningen University Hospital has decided its doctors will euthanize children under the age of 12, if doctors believe their suffering is intolerable or if they have an incurable illness.
April 13, 08 at 10:49 pm
Aquaria:How insulting to millions of hardworking doctors…….. 3 decades ago, a lecturer in the Medical Faculty, Malaya University, commented “it doesn’t matter whether the medical student is Chinese, Indian or Malay. All are equally intelligent but most are in it for the money.” That was quite an indictment on the medical students (and by extension, the medical profession) of his day and his country (Malaysia). Doctors? Sorry, there are many dedicated ones but not enough. Not in my experience. Millions? lol
May 7, 08 at 5:18 am
This is real easy folks – let’s organise a ‘World Religion Challenge’! What we’ll do is get the leaders of all Religions/Belief systems to back-up their claims for both divine intervention & the rights to sell ‘the only ticket in town’ to eternal life. This will be a worldwide sensation. We’ll have the Pope, Dalai Lama, Islamic Caliph etc all lined-up to battle it out for sole (soul?) supremacy. The rules are real simple and totally fair to all participants. We’ll have six dice and each of the contestants, has to say the same mantra/prayer just before they throw them: “Oh god prove your existence and the only true religion is [insert name of religion] by giving me six sixes”. Oh yeah I almost forgot, the atheists will have a chimp as their representative, the chimp will just simple throw the dice (minus the prayer bit) What do you think will happen after 24 hours of throwing the dice?
May 7, 08 at 9:31 am
The Pope will launch a Crusade, the Caliph will declare jihad, the chimp will evolve into an atheist and begin a Stalinist purge of millions, and the Dalai Lama will sit cross-legged to protest the violence (not in the studio, in Tibet)?
January 14, 09 at 6:07 am
Scott,
I’m not starting a discussion, but just wanted to thank you for sharing your personal stories of miracles – The world needs to hear of miracles occurring today, whether or not they believe is their choice. I delight in the Lord’s mercies and miracles. I know that His tender mercies and His miracles, large and small, are real. They come in His way and on His timetable. I have had miracles in my life and know of many other miracles that have occurred to others. Fools make a mock of miracles.
“He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” –Galatians 3:5
“But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him” –John 12:37
“For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.” — Mark 6:52
“… O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken…” –Luke 24:25
“6 A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth. 7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge. 8 The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way: but the folly of fools is deceit. 9 Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour.” — Proverbs 14:6-9
January 14, 09 at 9:09 am
Ah, if only we knew when miracles would occur beforehand – then we could set up mutiple video cameras and PROVE that God works His wonders!
But perhaps that’s not how God wants it… It has been said before by a Jewish theologian, that if God were proven then there would no longer be any element of faith left in believing in His existence…
March 19, 09 at 6:04 am
“Miracles by their definitions are meaningless. Whatever CAN happen…WILL happen.”
Miracle? You want me to acknowledge a miracle? Show me a bilateral amputee who has both legs grow back overnight or AT ALL, and maybe ill acknowledge it as a miracle. But im sure science will take care of that, god is obselete. He’s the equivalent of santa claus, except no one ever bothered to tell you that god was made up too.
–Dr.Manhattan
March 23, 09 at 1:59 pm
Yeah, right. If I were to bring that amputee to you and have it happen before your very eyes, you would discount it as a spontaneous regeneration – unlikely and surprising, but completely natural with no supernatural phenomena involved. Tell me that I am mistaken.
- Mr. Scott
By the way, you might like to attend any one of the many healing crusades or prayer rallies and confront any one of the healed persons (or go here). Try saying “YOU ARE JUST A FRAUD!” to their faces and come back and tell me what you find.