Submitted to God, But Not A Muslim


— At my mum and dad’s request, this post has been EVACUATED. I’ve left the bits that are totally not offensive and ISA inducing in any way. —

The second paragraph on this pro-Islamic site on Islam states this: Islam is not a new religion because “submission to the will of God”, i.e. Islam, has always been the only acceptable religion in the sight of God. For this reason, Islam is the true “natural religion”, and it is the same eternal message revealed through the ages to all of God’s prophets and messengers. Muslims believe that all of God’s prophets, which include Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, brought the same message of Pure Monotheism. For this reason, the Prophet Muhammad was not the founder of a new religion, as many people mistakenly think, but he was the Final Prophet of Islam.

This definition of ‘Muslim’ is ‘someone who is submitted to God’. Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, the many Prophets… Even polytheists like Alexander the Great can thus be considered Muslims.

The statement is a LOGICAL FALLACY of False Dilemma : It states that either you’re a Muslim, or you’re not submitted to God – but doesn’t include other viable alternatives such as: “Submitted to God, but NOT a Muslim.” I came across this site that says asomething about Abraham on that note.

— As you can see above, what’s left of the original post merely states the opinions of others and links you to other sites. That should be safe enough, I do hope. —


10 Responses to “Submitted to God, But Not A Muslim”

  1. marea Says:

    Actually dear sir, if you were to say,
    “There is no God but Allah and that Prophet Isa is just a messenger of Allah”

    – yes you has submitted to Islam. And Islam indeed was the religion of Prophet Isa.

    Same thing goes, if a Jew says,
    “There is no God but Allah and that Prophet Mosses is just a mesenger of Allah”

    Islam was the religion of Adam, Noah, Mosses, Abraham, Isa, Muhammad and all those prophets that can help yourself to name.

    Peace

    ps Please take note that I have spread the words to you. Whatever you shall wish to do next is your choice. Just a reminder that the question shall pop up during Dooms day. Good luck.

  2. marea Says:

    Unfortunately for you, Prophet Isa did prophecies the coming of another Prophet and so did the rest of the other Prophets on the coming of the last Prophet.

    ~ Source of information is your Holy Bibles, the earlier version from both the Catholic and Methodist Church back in the 50’s. If they had gone missing in your current versions, please don’t blame us – we didn’t do it!

  3. Scott Thong Says:

    Oh wow! There were earlier, very different versions of the Bible from the 50’s? Did you see them yourself, or just heard word of mouth about them? Cos if you did see them, I’d honestly like to know about it too!

    Query 1: Could these 50’s Bibles possibly be hoaxes? Seeing as 1700 year old documents of the New Testament don’t have these amazing revelatory prophecies. Neither does the Old Testament. If the Jews changed the texts to exclude Muhammad, shouldn’t they have done the same to exclude the more than 110 prophecies of the Messiah that Jesus fulfilled? Seeing as how the Pharisees and Saducees REALLY didn’t like Jesus.

    Query 2: If you say that the modern Bible has been changed, what are you accusing really? For the Koran states:
    “It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).” – Al E Imran 3
    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.003

    Are you (gasp!) accusing that the words that were sent down in the Injil cannot be protected by all-powerful authority? Think it over…The infidelic Christians are that powerful, wow! Their fanciful belief is able to the holy divine revealed word! Watch your tongue, that’s blasphemy by your standards isn’t it?

    Query 3: Did you hear about the secret missing chapters of your books that say “Haha this is all a big prank, please go back to your normal daily activities”? What do you mean, that’s just a false rumour? My friend’s brother’s uncle’s teacher’s goldfish’s pet alien saw the ACTUAL COPY from the year 1992! Don’t you believe him? (Get the point?)
    I agree that if anyone says “There is no God but Allah and that Prophet Mosses is just a mesenger of Allah”, then he is quite undoubtedly a bona-fide Muslim. However…
    Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham were more along the lines of “There is no God but YHWH.” Jesus was definitely of the “There is no God but YHWH and that I AM the only way to be reconciled to Him”.

    Note the name of God, YHWH, that is present in the pre-Christ Dead Sea Scrolls and the thousands of pre-Islam New Testament documents. The Jews and Christians had to be pretty foresighted to remove the prophecies about Mohammad centuries before it would even be an issue.

    How DID they manage it, anyway? How did the not-on-friendly-terms Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodoxes, other branches and Jews change ALL their Holy Texts spread across Asia, Africa and Europe in dozens of languages?

    If if was done in recent times, how did they change the BILLIONS of printed Bibles that exist? The Bible is the best selling book of all time, btw. 6 Billion sold, and that doesn’t count the free copies given out, the books about the Bible, the books which quote verses of the Bible, the handwritten copies hidden in monasteries…

    I agree wholeheartedly that Islam was the religion of ‘Ibrahim’, ‘Nuh’, ‘Musa’, the Arabic idea of ‘Adam’, and of course ‘Isa’. They all obeyed Allah.

    But as for Abraham, Noah, Moses, Adam and especially Jesus (Yeshua in the Hebrew) – They worshiped YHWH (Jehovah in some tongues). The difference in the slightly different names is vast, based on what they did and believed.

    It’s like saying that I’ve heard of George W Bush. I tell you he’s an American President and he waged war of Iraq, to which you would agree. Then I tell you he’s African-American, is 70 feet tall and passed public laws making ballet dancing compulsory. You’d disagree on that.

    Similarly – Isa didn’y die on the cross as an atonement for our sins, Jesus did. Moses didn’t have a sister who was Jesus’ mother – that was Musa.

    (Moses’ sister was Miriam, and Jesus’ mother was Mary. The names got translated to Musa’s sister Miriam and Isa’s mother Mariyam. So somehow, a certain prophet mixed up the two and told the Jews that Musa’s sister was Isa’s mum, please ignore the 1000 year gap in time)

    Allah is beyond creation, unknowable and untouchable. But YHWH longs for us to know Him, to speak with Him, to fellowship with Him.

    And on the final note… I am confident in looking in the face of Doomsday. The Muslim texts state that Isa will return to judge on Judgement day – which Christian texts state Jesus as doing as well. They only differ in how the world will be judged. Islam says that Isa will judge according to the Koran, Christianity says it will be according to belief in the Saviour.

    All things being equal, with Islam criticizing the inerrancy of the Bible and Christianity doubting the genuineness of the Koran and Hadith, how do you tell who is right? How do you choose what to believe?

    Why not take a good long look at the evidence for each stand? Check secular (and thus, non-supportive of either Islam or Christianity) sources for things such as: The oldest surviving manuscripts of the Holy Books; the historical accuracy of the narration in the Books; whether there are self-contradictions within the Books; whether you can agree with the teachings and actions of the most important Prophet of each religion.

    Give it a try. Pretend that you aren’t already biased and have already chosen. Put yourself in a skeptical atheist’s shoes. Study the evidence, and then think over the choice you have. (You can start with Wikipedia, because it is very biased against both beliefs. But don’t use it as definitive guide, because it can easily be maliciously edited or inaccurate).

    What I have just done is to show up inconsistencies in marea’s logic and reasoning. In just 8 paragraphs, he/she has shown us many of the flawed arguments that are often levelled in this particular field of debate. Read, ponder and judge for yourself if I have given a worthy (if non-exhaustive) rebuttal.

    In the end, perhaps if your heart doesn’t convict you, your mind will.

  4. Scott Thong Says:

    Hi marea. Sorry my original post had to be almost entirely wiped. Your comments still fit in context by reading the sites I linked to, however. So our little debate may escape intact, hurray!

  5. the10Commandments Says:

    Bravo, brother.
    Well-done, good and faithful servant.

  6. xmido Says:

    Allah means The GOD
    Islam means Submission ( to GOD)
    Muslim means Submitter

    religion is a system not a group. its a way of life. islam actually started from ibrahim. islam is the act, its not a religion. it an action. something you do. the religion is Worshiping GOD alone. Setting no partner. Jesus, Moses, Muhamed, Ibrahim all worshiped GOD alone. They were submitters. They didnt set partners or idolize anybody. they were monothesist. this is the perfect religion but most people dont know. so islam is a verb not a noun. so anyone could be a submitter. anyone who worships GOD alone will go to heaven. Anyone who follow other rules(setting partners).

    old testament (Torah) was once right, but they changed it. The new testament was once right(Bible) but they changed it and made millions versions of it. so GOD promises to maintain the Quran(Final Testament). even though they r trying to change it(with hadith) not part of the quran. they will never succeed.

    perfect religion is following GOD alone. thats the perfect religion but most people dont know.

    xmidoz@gmail.com

  7. oneforthelord Says:

    what xmido says is the same old argument that is always raised.

    What i’d like to maintain is that he’s almost 100% correct! He only missed out on one detail: Jesus did not worship Allah. Isa worshipped Allah. Jesus worshipped the LORD.

    Allah is NOT the LORD. Allah is NOT Jehovah God. Allah is Allah and he is not my god nor is he Scott’s god. Allah doesn’t want a personal relationship with me and neither does he care for one with Scott. God does, and unless your Allah is schizophrenic or has dissociative identity disorder they cannot be the same. Unless of course your Allah is not interested in having a relationship with only Muslims but is very interested in relationships with Christians. Now I wonder why that would be the case, hmm?

  8. oneforthelord Says:

    Oh, forgot to add: Moses also did not worship Allah. Musa did.

  9. Scott Thong Says:

    —old testament (Torah) was once right, but they changed it. The new testament was once right(Bible) but they changed it and made millions versions of it.—

    This accusation I pre-emptively answered in my post https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2006/11/25/was-the-bible-changed-reasons-why-it-could-not-have-been/

    —even though they r trying to change it(with hadith) not part of the quran.—

    Agreed, the Hadith is completely separate from the Quran. The Quran is said by Muslims to be the actual words of Allah, whereas te Hadith is a compilation of the sayings and doings of Muhammad.

    But an interesting point of view that the Hadith is a bad thing. But you DO know that a Muslim not accepting the Hadith as holy scripture is considered heretical belief in most Muslim countries. Do be careful okay?

    On your note, secular scholars believe that the Hadith was compiled a hundred to hundreds of years after Muhammad’s death. Therefore, enough time had passed that the actual sayings and teachings he said could have been forgotten or misremembered, as well as for mythical tales to be included among the factual accounts. Many sayings attributed to Muhammad might even never actually been said by him. This is supported by a read-through of the Hadith – there are far more seeming self-contradictions and scientific oddities than in the Quran.

    This criteria (date of writing of the original manuscript) is similar to one line of logical reasoning used by conservative Christian scholars as to why many apocryphal books are not included as genuine New Testament Scripture. For example, the earliest copies of the so-called Gospel of Barnabas date from the Medieval era. The style of writing and details mentioned also point to a late date of composition.

    —so GOD promises to maintain the Quran(Final Testament). even though they r trying to change it(with hadith) not part of the quran. they will never succeed.—

    According to Muslim tradition, the third Caliph Uthman gathered up the various written copies of the Quran and compiled them into one version. He then ordered all the other manuscripts destroyed.

    The question to ask is: Was he right to do so? Did he choose which parts to keep and which to destroy correctly? Shia Islam doesn’t even accept him as a legitimate caliph, since he is not family-related to Muhammad. Without competing manuscripts all destroyed, how can modern scholars make a comparison and verdict as they can do with the Bible scriptures?

    So while you may believe that the perfect, original Quran exists in heaven, and Muhammad had the Quran dictated to him flawlessly… How sure are you that the copies of text you have today are the same as what the first Muslims had?

    A question that would itch my brain and conscience terribly if it were my holy scriptures. Think about it, and find your own acceptable solution. Tell me if you decide on something.

    Oh, and PS… If the version you read today is not the same as the original, then any accusations in it of the Bible having been changed could also be inclusions that were not in the original.

  10. jbl87 Says:

    Allah never had a son. YHWH / JEHOVAH GOD has a Son. Allah is NOT Jehovah. ” Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
    Psalm 2:11-12 (in Context) Read Psalm 2 (Whole Chapter).

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