What is the Source of Magic in the Real World?


I went to see Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix the yesterday… Mostly because in the gap between Transformers and Ratatouille + The Simpsons Movie, there’s nothing else to see right now.

                      HP1

When Harry and ‘Dumbledore’s Army’ clash with the Death Eaters in the Departmet of Mystery’s prophecy storage room, most of the kids fire off little spells – stun blasts and the like. But Hermione lets off one nice, big boom of a spell, blasting the baddies away momentarily and starting all the racks of prophecy globes falling over.

Which got me thinking: What is the source of magic in the Harry Potter universe? After all, it’s not explained where the energy comes from. If it were out of nowhere, then logically Hermione and the rest ought to let off the tactical nuke spells every single time, instead of pinging away with finger pokes.

I guess it’s because I’m familiar with RPG games and their concept of magic points or mana. As a balancing factor, more powerful spells use up more magic points. So if you keep launching big spells, you’ll run out of magic energy reserves quickly.

And IMHO, magic can’t come out of nowhere. Energy cannot simply be created out of no energy (according to the First Law of Thermodynamics). Ergo, magical energy must have a source.

So what could the source of Hogwartsian magical energy be?

And remember that Harry Potter’s universe is one where flashy, fun-times-for-all magic exists in our own Muggle-run world of science and technology.

So let’s take the question further, and ask: What could the source of magic in our nonfiction reality be? Where do humans draw their magic from, since we don’t come equipped with nuclear-fusion-to-magic-energy-reactors in our guts?

As a fan of the fantasy genre, especially high fantasy, let me tackle this pertinent question by comparing several different continuities as I delve into the source of their magic.

———————

ERAGON

    EragonPoster

In the Eragon universe, dragons can form a special bond with humans. The human becomes a Dragon Rider, sharing a special life-and-death link between them. This special link also gives the Dragon Rider access to magic – but using too much magic in one shot severely drains the caster.

Now, where the dragons get their magic is another thing, but suffice to say that Dragon Rider humans draw their magic power, or at least gain magic-usage, from their dragons.

Do dragons exist in the real world? No, Peter Dickinson aside. And especially not the spellcasting kind.

———————

DUNGEONS & DRAGONS

baldurs_gate_2_shadows

Ah, the great classic and grand-daddy of modern role playing gaming fun, Dungeons & Dragons in all its paper and electronic forms.

In the popular Forgotten Realms D&D setting, magic is drawn through something called the Weave. Spellcasters manipulate the Weave to alter its balance of energy, thus creating changes in reality that result in magical effects.

The Weave itself is a barrier between the Forgotten Realms world and raw magic. A similar, more sci-fi concept exists in the Immaterium of Warhammer 40000.

Does The Weave or a comparable magical energy barrier exist in the real world that we can manipulate to mess with the rules of physics? No, unless you count the freakiness of quantum theory.

———————

MAGIC: THE GATHERING

                           Magic_the_gathering-card_back

In the multiple planes of existence that is the Magic universe, magical energy is called mana. Mana is drawn from the very land, and sometimes powerful artifacts. (But it can be argued that most mana-producing artifacts are merely storage devices for land-based mana.)

Anyway, magic-users draw mana from the lands they have formed a bond to, and use the accumulated mana to cast mighty spells and summon fantastic creatures to do battle!

The most gifted of these magic-users may actually have the in-born planeswalker spark, which makes them magnitudes more powerful. But it all still comes down to the magic of the land.

Do lands providing magical energy exist in the real world? No, ignoring the unproven claims of ley lines, geomancy and feng shui. Solar power as ‘energy cascading down onto the land’ doesn’t even come close! And definitely not in the channel-mana-cast-spell way.

You can also read my post about my tournament gaming experience, which has lots of links to card images that may give you a feel for how the game plays.

———————

WARCRAFT

In the world of Warcraft, magic comes from several sources. Mortal or limitless-lifespan folk can use magic, sure, but they need a source to draw their magic from.

In the Frozen Throne storyline, the High Elves used to have their source of magic in the mystical geographic feature known as the Sunwell. It was created long ago by smuggling out a small portion of the original source of magic on the world, the Well of Eternity.

Unfortunately, the invasion of the Undead Scourge resulted in the defiling and destruction of the Sunwell. Their homeland destroyed, the High Elves renamed themselves as the Blood Elves and pledged revenge.

                 bloodelves

However, the Elves soon began to feel ill and apathetic. Having been exposed to the Sunwell’s magical energies for so long, they had become addicted to magic. Now with no source of magic to feed their addiction, they were suffering from magic withdrawal symptoms.

Fate played out its hand, for the leader of the serpentine Naga came to them with the revelation that the Elves could always turn to other sources for magic… Such as demons.

Thus the Elves pledged their allegiance to Illidan Stormrage, the Demon Hunter who himself became a demon.

                 300px-Illidan23

Does the Well of Eternity exist in the real world? Nope. Does the Sunwell exist in the real world? No.

Do demons exist in the real world?

YES.

According to Christian beliefs, demons really do exist in our real world.

——————–

Did everyone read that right? Demons exist in the real world? What’s wrong with this blogger? Hasn’t he read The Demon-Haunted World and left his outdated superstitions behind yet?

But you forget. This particular nutter is a Bible-believing, fundamental Christian.

Of course you won’t see big, hulking, horned, hooved, flaming sword demons wandering around ripping people’s hearts out for snacks. In Christian doctrine, demons are always spiritual entities – non-corporeal beings who cannot take real physical form.

You can imagine how Hollywood would find itself hard-pressed to sell movies where the villians are all invisible, hence the popular portrayal of demons as physical-combat oriented warrior-beasts… Although Poltergeist and The Exorcist are good exceptions.

However, demons are no less real for all the Hollywood artistic license. Being spirits, they can’t be proven to exist through the usual scientific observation methods (although the reputed effect of spiritual phenomena on the electromagnetic spectrum may hold some promise).

——————–

So there you have it – if magic exists in this real world of ours, then demons are in all likelihood the source of it. And since Christian doctrine claims that demons do exist, then it is likely that practitioners of demonic magic also exist (knowing or unknowing of the demonic origin of their magic, see the mafia rackets bit at the Conclusion to this post).

But not fancy, flashy magic mind you… No area-damage fireballs and Patronus here.

In line with their spiritual traits, demons called upon by various practitioners (such as malignant bomohs) to attack the target by disturbing the mind, emotions and will. And through the psychosomatic process, to affect physical health as well.

That doesn’t mean that all mental disorders are necessarily the work of demonic influence, but simply that demons can sometimes meddle with normal mental health.

(By contrast, holy miracles are not limited to messing with the mind, as anyone familiar with the more spectacular scenes in the Bible knows. Nor are they ever invoked by humans, but always commanded and caused by God. And they are never for selfish reasons, but always to glorify God.)

——————–

This theory of demonic magic does have a Biblical basis, gleaned from the following passages (bolding is mine for emphasis):

They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols. They sacrificed to demons, which are not God— gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your fathers did not fear. – Deuteronomy 32:16-17

They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood.Psalms 106:36-38 (SHOCKING! Still happening in modern times!)

Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 1 Corinthians 10:19-20

While they were going out, a man who was demon-possessed and could not talk was brought to Jesus. And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke. – Matthew 9:32-33

When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment. – Matthew 17:14-15,18

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. – 1 Timothy 4:1

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. – Matthew 24:23-25

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.2 Corinthians 11:14-15

And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. – Revelation 13:13-14 (see whole of Revelation 13 for more ungodly magic)

Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.Revelation 16:13-14

——————–

CONCLUSION

So what is the moral of this little exercise in high fantasy continuity? Well, if demons are the source of real ‘magic’ in our real world, then we shouldn’t risk having anything to do with them!

Like mafia rackets (see Virus/Anti-virus Scam on the Spiritual Plane for more), they will eventually demand a high price for their services.

It is the testimony of my Indigenous friend from Borneo that his uncle, a real life bomoh (tribal shaman), was full of deathly fear of something as he lay on his deathbed. We reckon that it was because he knew his magical patrons were coming (or already there) to collect their dues.

Perhaps you can see now why some Christian families do not want their children to become engrossed in the world of Harry Potter. Sure, it’s all make believe and rollicking good fun. And doubtless J.K. Rowling would not mould the Potter continuity to make his magic reliant on demons.

But those cute little don’t-know-better kids, who are so enamored of fly-on-broomsticks magic, might start experimenting with magic in real life… Hoping beyond hope to discover that elusive secret, the amazing gift of REAL MAGIC!

And God forbid, what they will find when they search long and hard enough… Or perhaps simply stumble onto the wrong names to utter in jest. It is never merely jesting to the demonic criminal syndicates of the spiritual realm.

                               200px-Devillizzy2

“You will not surely die. Your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God.”

For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. – 1 Samuel 15:23


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107 Responses to “What is the Source of Magic in the Real World?”

  1. Caro Says:

    Am I writing to the person who wrote this blog about the origin of magic? If so I would really like to talk to you. I am a fantasy author (soon to be published) and stumbled on this ‘blog’ whilst doing some research. (I’m not familiar with blogs – not entirely sure how it works).

    I’d really appreciate a message back I think we could have a lot to talk about plus it would be very helpful to me

    Caro

  2. Reuben Says:

    the Bible tells us there are more things in heaven and earth than we could ever imagine. The common idea that humans conciously use only 10% of our brain capacity, the documented existence of people with extra-normal abilities (such as the ability to conciously raise the body’s core temperature and thus withstand cold conditions thought to be impossible), and so forth offer us a glimpse of this. Practitioners of some martial arts have long been able to perform apparently superhuman feats like walking on burning, broken glass without being harmed. Does exploration of mind over matter, producing results that could appear “magical,” necessarily involve dark forces?

  3. Taliesin Says:

    There’s a very serious flaw in your argument. You are going through a list only so far as to ensure you find the angle you need to spout your beliefs- you pass by several fantasy series’ which don’t help and don’t say where the magic comes from, but as soon as you find the one angle you need (which is, I might remind you, only one aspect of the world it is set in) you immediately latch onto it, forsaking all other examples.

    You even go so far as to mention a series which does the job quite well. That being Warhammer, although you only mention the sci-fi version, not the fantasy version that would fit the theme of your post better. Interesting point, that.

    For example, in Warhammer 40k ‘magic’ manifests as people who genetically evolve a link to the Immaterium, more commonly called the Warp. The Warp is a parasite dimension composed of pure energy, which reacts to the emotions of sentient beings in material space.

    Does such a dimension exists in the real world? How should I know? I certainly can’t find a way of proving it, but that in itself is not enough. Something is wrong when it is DISproven, not when there is simply a lack of evidence to back it up. That is, after all the idea of theory and what di many of the laws of physics, biology, etc start out as? Theory.

    Yet, unlike your example, the Warp is not deamonic. It can seem so, on the surface. It is certainly inhabited by malevolant energy-beings commonly referred to as ‘Daemons’, but this is an oversimplification.

    The inhabitants of the warp are not demons. They are energy-constructs formed out of the overwhelming emotions of the material world- the fact that they are malicious creatures is a result of the dark, brutal world that Warhammer is, rather than any intrinsic leaning towards metaphysical concepts such as ‘good’ and ‘evil’.

    The warp itself is also not demonic. When a wizard or ‘Psyker’ as they are referred to in Warhammer 40,000 (although despite the name, they are for all intents and purposes, spellcasters), do not channel demonic energy to fuel their incredibl power.

    Although it is true that some Psykers do so, unlocking the secrets of sorcery by making demonic pacts, this is not the most common case, and as evidenced by some of the more powerful Psykers, not the only route to unlimited power.

    Most Psykers simply channel extra-dimensional energies which, while volatile and potentially destructive, are not intrinsically evil. As such, the idea that magic stemming from demonic pacts is an argument I find narrow-minded at best.

    This is not to say that Warhammer 40k is the only example of magic with a defined source in its world, it is simply the one that I, personally, know best. As such, I suggest you perform further research before you judge so readily.

  4. Scott Thong Says:

    Taliesin, dude… You’re WAY too serious into this…

    Yes, I just used a few examples, out the dozens I know of (e.g. Final Fantasys 1-10 which each have their own system) and the countless others I don’t.

    Yes, I homed in on just one example – that of Warcraft III.

    But this is because, according to Christian theology (which I take to represent truth, fact and reality) demons are the SOLE source of magic in this real world.

    And Warcraft III is fantasy universe I know well where demons are mentioned as a source of magic. The other examples I gave were just red herrings.

    To be blunt: MtG, Final Fantasy, Harry Potter, Merlin, My Little Pony, Disney’s Aladdin, Bedknobs and Broomsticks, Bewitched, and – yes – even Warhammer all have fictional, make-believe, untrue and WRONG accounts of magic. They are unintentional LIES told for the purpose of amusement. Warcraft comes close, but is inaccurate in stating that non-demonic sources of magic exist.

    So in conclusion: Yes, I judged quickly. I believe that the Christian doctrine of all magic being from demonic sources is true, and from the start geared my entire post towards providing an example that rings true to that belief.

  5. Scott Thong Says:

    Practitioners of some martial arts have long been able to perform apparently superhuman feats like walking on burning, broken glass without being harmed. Does exploration of mind over matter, producing results that could appear “magical,” necessarily involve dark forces? – Reuben

    Reuben, I too have some control over the normally subconcious bodily functions. I can speed up my digestion, make my stomach contents more acidic or more alkaline, and constrict or dilate my skin’s blood vessels (though not very consistently).

    Feats such as these, or future proven abilities such as telekinesis, are distinct from magic – just as teleportation using quantum physics is distinct. They likely rely on yet-undiscovered physical laws and biological characteristics.

    Using the Biblical principle, a simple way to distinguish between magic and cool-stuff is this: If the source is demonic, then it is ‘magic’ according to the Biblical understanding. If the source is not demonic, then it isn’t the ‘magic’ described in the Bible.

  6. Taliesin Says:

    So you are, in effect, ignoring the idea of proving anything in favour of providing a biased, christian-only account without even accepting the possibility that such a belief might be wrong?

    Whether you believe the christian belief is correct or not is irrelevant. If you want to prove anything, then actually try and prove it- don’t just spout your beliefs which may or may not be correct.

    For example, why should christianity be correct? What provides it with so much more reason to be true than anything else?

    Maybe I am taking this too seriously. Well, as a firm believer in truth when I see people doing nothing more than spouting a biased, self-serving account and citing it as the irrefutable truth, I believe I have just cause to argue back with any amount of ferocity I deem appropriate.

    Furthermore, as a pagan when I see somebody declaring the magic -a fairly central part of my beliefs- is evil and demonic without at any point accepting the idea that they may be wrong, or that other points of view may be right, I also believe that I am justified in, to put it bluntly, biting back.

    So, in summary you say that “MtG, Final Fantasy, Harry Potter, Merlin, My Little Pony, Disney’s Aladdin, Bedknobs and Broomsticks, Bewitched, and – yes – even Warhammer all have fictional, make-believe, untrue and WRONG accounts of magic”

    Okay, fine. Why is christianity any different?

  7. Scott Thong Says:

    First up, I apologize if my equation of magic with demons is offenseive to your beliefs. However, those are the facts of the matter according to Christian doctrine.

    Secondly, this post is not about proving Christianity correct – I have many other posts to that effect.

    This post instead assumes two things: 1) That Christian theology is correct, and 2) That most people in the First World do not actually believe in magic as portrayed by the Fantasy and Sci-Fi genres.

    This post was therefore meant to interest Fantasy fans (i.e. Warcraft players) in Christianity in a way they can connect with.

    If I were to post about logically, objectively proving that magic exists in our real world – I’d be in for a loooooooong, hard time. It’s not exactly hard science and 1 + 1 = 2, if you catch my drift.

    Thirdly, as to why I assume Christianity to be correct, it’s because the Judeo-Christian Scriptures are textually, historically, archaeologically, logically and scientifically verified… Unlike the other faiths.

    Easy 3 Steps to Why We Can Believe The Bible About Spirituality and Metaphysics

    Go ahead and challenge me on it – Christianity is a faith based on reason and truth, not make-believe and illogicity. It is an amateurish mistake to assume that Christians are all mindless, unthinking, brainwashed, glassy-eyed sheep.

    (This particular Christian is a skeptic, a scientist and a cynic – it takes a whole lot of convincing to make me believe anything.)

    Fourthly, while you’re at it, YOU try and prove that: 1) Magic exists, is observable and has been objectively verified, and 2) It stems from non-demonic, non-malevolent sources.

    But just FIY – I’ve already prepared a rebuttal of any ‘Magic does good things’ arguments…

    Virus/Anti-virus Scam on the Spiritual Plane

    Fifthly, why do you yourself assume that demons = evil? Isn’t that offensive to pagans and New Agers with different beliefs from you?

    Sixthly, why are you even defending the metaphysics of Warhammer, which is a fictional system created for recreational gaming?

    Or do you believe that Warhammer’s metaphysics actually reflect the true hidden reality, just like how Scientologists claim that all Sci-Fi is actually an unsconcious reflection of their Space Opera doctrine?

  8. Dan Says:

    Please tell me that this is just some sort of joke. Grown ups don’t actually believe that magic really exists, because a couple fictional and mythological books say so, do they?

  9. Scott Thong Says:

    Unfortunately, you just insulted the Wiccans, New Agers, Vodun pratitioners, etc.

    And unlike Christians, they are not averse to immediately calling the ACLU and suing people’s pants off. Heck, they even got a Wicca symbol hoisted onto the rooftops at Christmas.

    http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2007/12/wiccan_pentacle.html

    For the record, most Christians I know do not believe in Hollywood style rainbow coloured lightning blasts (as I have stated). To us, so-called ‘magic’ is limited to the spiritual, psychological and emotional realm – very nonphysical as it were.

  10. Dan Says:

    Haha… “moonbattery” indeed.

  11. Dan Says:

    Say… have you thought about promoting the tin-foil hat brigade too?

  12. Scott Thong Says:

    See, all you do is quote various straw men in an effort to ad hominem me. What, no Flying Spaghetti Monster yet? Flat Earth?

    Or have all the other atheists already come up with the last of the original material?

  13. Dan Says:

    You’re suggesting that magic really exists, and you suggest that I’m the only one that makes things up? I thought I was just joining in the fun with you.

  14. Believer Says:

    Scott,

    You’re “right on” brother. The source of magic always comes from a demonic source. Despite what Wiccans and other pagan-sourced religions want us to believe, magic is always demonic. What appears to the eye as some unseen force carrying out the will of the practitioner, the knowledgeable see the force what it truly is, which is a fallen angel doing the magic that results with a fantasitic feat. However, the ticket to the show always comes with a high price, one that will have to be paid at the end by the conjurer. And, sadly though, most magicians will eventually discover how they were deceived when it may be too late to do anything about it.

    Demonic beings are clever, they sometimes conceal their true nature, making it appear as if unknown universal forces have been tapped into to successfully conduct magic. I’ve known folks who’ve dealt with magic (most were frauds) and have regretted their choice to pursue it. They’ve given up their practice and now lead normal, magic-free lives. They have confirmed that dealing with this stuff is horrible, and that if it weren’t for a re-commitment to a life based on Christian ideals (they are not fanatics), they would’ve probably been doomed by now.

    As for Dan, are you an atheist? Or are you a Satanist solely trying to undermine Scott’s message? Or neither? Either way, in order to prove that demons and magic exist, this can only be verified from your participation in the occult. This is something that I do not recommend (the danger is obvious). Your lack of belief is immaterial, as magic and demon invocation can occur independently from your belief system. I can go deeper into this, but for now, I’ll leave my message as is. In short, I just want to re-emphasize Scott’s message that magic is real and its source is demonic. This is not only Christian doctrine, but Islamic as well. If you decide to dabble in this, don’t say you weren’t warned when things begin to go out of control.

  15. Dan Says:

    Hi – no, I’m an atheist and a scientist. I come to this discussion from the perspective of Arthur C. Clarke’s third law:

    “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”

    That is, magic doesn’t exist. Until a day or two ago, I thought that believers of magic existed only up until the Enlightenment, and were strongest during the Dark Ages.

    Have you guys not heard of the Enlightenment or something? This is just astonishing to me that people still actually believe in magic and fairy tales, and cannot distinguish fact from fiction or mythology.

  16. Scott Thong Says:

    “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”

    Okay, so let me redefine the message of my post:

    Technology that is so advanced that it is virtually mass-less and dimensionless yet can alter reality without any visible source of power, is the product of a race of sentient but malevolent beings so ancient and advanced that they have long ago transcended the physical plane and now exist as pure mental/emotional energy that cannot be detected by our primitive scientific tools.

    Any objections to that, Mr. Scientist?

  17. Scott Thong Says:

    Spot on, Believer, I say just as much in this post:

    https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2006/11/01/virusanti-virus-scam-on-the-spiritual-plane/

  18. Believer Says:

    Dan,

    I have an engineering degree. My job deals with solving problems with an engineer’s perspective. Half of the engineers I work with are atheists, or agnostic to say the least. Subjects like religion or the belief in God have no place in our discussions when we eat lunch, or when we go for a cold one right after work. I understand what you’re saying and why you are skeptical with our point of view. But as a scientist, you should always keep an open mind to forces that you don’t understand. After all, much of today’s chemistry is derived from yesterday’s magicians, or alchemists, right? Magic, my friend, has its own set of rules that are constant and immutable, just like physics. The only difference in what you and I learned at the university and what “true” magicians practice is that one can be confirmed with scienctific methods and the other cannot. However, our failure at this point in human history to confirm the validity of magic, or a spiritual world for that matter, should not mean the subject should be chucked or dismissed so lightly. In fact, several highly-noted academicians from Stanford University have conducted some interesting studies on the subject matter. Their studies yielded fantastic yet inconclusive results (which I will describe more in my next post), but nonetheless allowed for the existence of forces that are outside of our contemporary understanding of how the physical world functions.

    Anyway, it is true that the Enlightenment brought us a great deal of understanding of our physical world, but it did nothing to completely quash the belief in magic and people’s pursuit of it. What it did do is relegate this world to obscurity as civilization continued to advance with the advent of great discoveries and inventions in the last three centuries.

    However, having said that, I have to vehemently disagree and take offense with your implication that somehow Scott and I are deficient in our understanding of science and our physical world only because we believe that magic exists and that it is controlled by demonic forces. Magic will never be explored or studied by academicians due to the manner in which grant funding is secured. In today’s world, most of our advances and great technologies are discovered by funds from either a governmental or industrial entity. No entity with deep pockets will want to fund such a “non-scientific” endeavor such as magic. The professors from Standford University were fortunate enough to secure funding from an unusual source, an eccentric man with an abundant supply of resources.

    I have to eat dinner now. I will contribute more tomorrow.

  19. Scott Thong Says:

    Thanks for the input again Believer. Do give us the link when you do post that info.

    Btw, engineers may be plentiful atheists, but psysicists who study the universe aren’t:

    “If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn’t much use.” – Robert Griffiths, physicist and winner of the Dannie Heineman Prize for Mathematical Physics

    https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/physicists-believe-in-god-or-at-least-a-creator-or-designer-a-collection-of-quotes/

  20. http://www.spellcastersblog.org Says:

    Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 42. Veteran’

  21. jameson Says:

    well i found all this very ointeresting and inlightening

    and i found many facts and learned alot

    however i have a question,, keep in mind i am not trying to prove you wrong , just was wondering about something

    1. i think there is good magic

    a. every action has a reation, every yin a yang
    i think that the magic god used in creation, the magic jesus used ,and the magic that is in several parts of the bible, like moses staff, the parting of the waters,the burning bush,water in to wine , bread into fish,ect are examples

    also the bible says that there willl be healers , children with have visions and people will speak in tounges , also there are exorcisms to reverse demonic possesssion with would be good right?

    keep in mind i am not questioning you i found your points and counterpoints quite factual just thought i might would give you a thought and see what u think

    also if you think about it technolgy in a way is magic , we harness wind , water ,fire ,light and earth for energy in technology just as they do spiritualy , someone from biblical times might find our cars , lights , telephones and television to be magic

  22. wits0 Says:

    And What About Miracles? (Magic included, i.e)

    http://www.parami.org/buddhistanswers/what_about_miracles.htm
    1. The marvel of supernormal power to appear as many persons, to pass through walls, to fly through the air, walk on water. All these are physical actions the ordinary people cannot perform.
    2. The supernormal power to read other people’s minds.
    3. The supernormal power to be able to guide people according to their mental development, for their own good, using suitable methods that fit these people.

    No.2 can be attained using an invoked disembodied spirit. I knew of one such guy at least who could read my mind this way.

    We live in a Mental Universe created by minds, individually and en masse. This is one hint. Thus our own thoughts themselves are not that absolutely insulated and ‘unseen’.

    Jameson: “1. i think there is good magic”
    Yes, but the temptation to go bad is also great. Yes, Moses could easily have been treated to a holographic burning bush indeed,

  23. Jamie Says:

    Well jameson, what you’d deem as ‘good magic’ and the examples you’ve listed out fall under the category ‘miracles/works of God’.

    If one were to talk about the ‘good magic’ supposedly used by practicers of magic nowadays, the source is still demonic and not from God, so even if it produced good effects it would still not be classifiable as good magic.

  24. wits0 Says:

    Magic, “the source is still demonic and not from God”

    Then one would have to also condemn Milarepa with this statement – without having first defined God.

    http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/Milarepa/Milarepa.htm

  25. Jamie Says:

    I was limiting discourse to the frame of reference of the post as well as his comment, so yes I was not addressing the issue of Milarepa.

  26. wits0 Says:

    T o described unknown as demonic is rather often too convenient. Agreed that the Black Arts are greatly corruptive as with all Earthly powers in the annals of human history.

    BTW, If God created Everything, that must include demons too. IF not, then, he is not ALMIGHTY.

  27. jameson Says:

    also id like to point out people can use godly powers

    so magic either comes from god or demons

    always from an alternate source

    i agree that mostly would be demonic as eeven in the bible its says evil is beautiful and easily confused

    and i think demons used to be angels minus the snake i think dont kill me if im wrong

    in my personal opinion if it is in you if you natually do it then its god
    if you call upon something other than god it is demonic
    just my thoughts with the knowledge i have know
    thanks guys

  28. wits0 Says:

    Jameson, in the West, the Ouija Board remains a danerous thing to use. With that, one does not know what he/she is invoking. There’ll be demons and evil disincarnate just waiting for that chance to do mischief.

    In a trance state too, unlike a Samadhi state, a person is not in control and possession is very possible.

    If you are not living in the Orient, you may not be accustomed to or experience the temple medium trance in action. Under the auspices of presiding deity, the medium is not threatened although he himself is not an achiever of any Samadhi state via meditation, e.g. In fact the medium is chosen by the Deities themselves and was given a choice to accept or not.

    The titulary gods are real and their lending hands are quite efficacious, though help is often limited by the appelant’s own state of karma and chosen path. Were they not efficacious, how did all those temples survived generation after generation wrt to the temple trance in SE Asia?

    From my experience, they’re certainly not malicious but benevolent ; they do not cast curses on your oppressor(s). That would indeed have to be via black magic. If you, e.g., need to know about who is fixing you or stole something from you, they know who dunnit alright but what will be revealed would be dependent on your own character too. I believe they weighed the benefit against the harm that comes with you knowing. If your disposition is that of a vicious and vengeful one, I doubt they will tell you who fixed you if they see you are capable of handling matters – as they have told me a few times in the distant past wrt similar matters. No, I’m not an addict but I’ve brought a couple of friends and translated for them. That helped to save one from serious injury in a predicted accident.

    They also never claimed to be Almighty God.

  29. hutchrun Says:

    `T o described unknown as demonic is rather often too convenient.`

    I would have said `very convenient`. Reminds me of this bunch of Christians meeting one Thaipusam day, and one of them asking the others to bless him `cos the devils were out on the streets. Have heard muslims say the same.
    To me no big deal. I`d just join in and break a coconut or two if I felt like it🙂

  30. jim Says:

    magic is rooted in the mind of the being who uses it. biblical sources aside, i believe that what can be called magical, is often nature acting according to its design. energies come from many sources. every religion has a core. some are very mystical. not to anger any one of the others, as a Christian i have read accounts of miracles that weren’t Earth shaking. there are many divine beings, and they are all great.

  31. Scott Thong Says:

    Well, I’m quite cynical… So just as I initially suspect that every stranger on the street is a potential criminal and aggressor until proven otherwise, I see no reason to unquestioningly trust ‘divine beings’ just because they’re all glowy and spiritual and say that they’re just here to help.

    See To Serve Man.

  32. john Says:

    “if magic exists in this real world of ours, then demons are in all likelihood the source of it.” As I read this quote among the rest of your blog I thought that as a bible believing Christian you might want to look at a verse in the bible that may explain some magic in the world. In the beginning of the world God in all his wisdom created man and after that history began to form. As Christians we like to believe that man, God, and Angels (both demon and holy) are the only intelligent beings with the potential of faith. In genesis 6 it explains another race existed and may still be around.
    Genesis 6:1-4,
    1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
    Keep hope in the magic of the world my friend.

  33. Scott Thong Says:

    But nowhere does it say that the Nephilim had magical abilities. They may have all been Fighter class heroes, rather than Mage class. And they’re no longer around anyway…

  34. john Says:

    What Mr Thong was saying is in fact true, however the statement that they no longer exist is foolish. We have no way of knowing that they were wiped out, and if he pretends to understand every living being he is a tired fool. Tired because he would have to go through massive amounts of information and foolish because he would never complete this fools errand. It is true it never speaks of the magical abilities of the Nephilim, but it does not say they did not have any magical abilities. When you look at the deeds of angels in the bible you see them do things no man could possibly accomplish. It is also foolish to say that some of these supernatural ability’s did not carry over to that race. I never said these creatures absolutely have magical powers I was merely making an observation that they could have had them.

    Again I say keep hope in the magic of the world my friend.

  35. Scott Thong Says:

    Ah, but see, you forget what happened to the Nephilim:

    4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

    5 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. – Genesis 6:4-8

    Everyone except Noah and his family – a total of 8 people, were wiped out by the Great Flood. No more Nephilim or their ‘magical genes’.

    However, you may argue that they survived due to their ‘magicalness’.

    For we see:

    30 Then Caleb silenced the people before Moses and said, “We should go up and take possession of the land, for we can certainly do it.”

    31 But the men who had gone up with him said, “We can’t attack those people; they are stronger than we are.”

    32 And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, “The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size. 33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.” – Numbers 13:30-33

    Now it could be that the Israelites just heard the rumoured to be descended from the Nephilim (which would be impossible if they all died off in the Flood).

    But regardless, read on and find:

    21 At that time Joshua went and destroyed the Anakites from the hill country: from Hebron, Debir and Anab, from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua totally destroyed them and their towns. 22 No Anakites were left in Israelite territory; only in Gaza, Gath and Ashdod did any survive. – Joshua 11:21-22

    Hmf. Their magic skillz didn’t help them much against the power of God’s will. So even if they had residual magic powers, it was no match for God’s righteous wrath. Same goes for all other magic and powers and forces – God is supreme.

    But I reiterate, I do not disbelieve in magic. I do believe it exists. I simply believe that all supernatural power comes either from God, or from forces not submitted to God (i.e. rebellious or evil spirits).

  36. Simon Thong Says:

    And if there are forces in-between, ultimately they must decide or have decided for them which way they should swing: to the Lord or to “the other place”.

  37. john Says:

    I completely agree with the statement,
    “And if there are forces in-between, ultimately they must decide or have decided for them which way they should swing: to the Lord or to “the other place”.
    We as humans and possibly the Nephilim were all given certain powers whether they be speech, intelligence, or magical powers(purely hypothetical don’t worry im not making a claim to actual truth) as well as free will to do with it what we will. Its just interesting to think of the actual POSSIBILITY of magical powers. thanks ado

  38. Mikey Mobbover Says:

    You marled him john.

  39. Simon Thong Says:

    Mikey Mobbover: You marled him john. Sorry, did you mean ‘marled’? That’s an interesting word but not used as a verb. Marl is soil consisting of clay and lime; or a type of fabric with threads that are of an uneven color (blue marl stockings). Or did you mean “mauled”?

  40. john Says:

    its a saying not something you would find in a dictionary, but more of an inside joke. You thongs take things so literally

  41. Simon Thong Says:

    And who is inside with you, to share your joke, just a majority of two? This is a blog, public, open to all and sundry (that includes you). Keep your inside jokes inside lest the outsides laugh at your insides.

  42. Valeriu Says:

    is magic just an illusion or an desire ( thirst for power ) best way to learn it is to see somone doing it then u wont have doubts it even exists in 1st place about the sources there might be a few nature/soul/spirit/brain’s electormagnetic feild generation energy or manipulating existing elements and maybe the earth itself if an source ( why do we even consider paranormal stuff somthing diferent coze it’s not hapening evry day )
    obtaining magic is geting imposible this days tryed to find sources in darkenss/light … ( the legend of atlantis thery king sunked the city becoze they were corupt abusing power or some mysterios crystals )
    my opinion there are ALOT of magic sources not only demon’s/angles
    in the end all the search of power leaded to myself in our bodyes must be an energy core ( not heart or brain ) the body wont just live on the organs
    and what about biblic ino about soul and spirit + the lost souls who belife they are still alive or seek vengeance or hatred towards living persons
    hell ya magic is real hope some day i find out the basic of magic the source til then it’s an complete mystery

  43. Scott Thong Says:

    Well Valeriu, I can’t provide much real and factual info about non-demon potential magic sources on this Earth.

    But I can safely say that the Bible does not permit the possibility of lost souls or vengeful ghosts of dead humans.

    According to the Bible, once a person dies his/her soul immediately faces judgement and goes to either heaven or hell. From there, none can leave or return to this world except for a time by God’s specific permission. Nor can they remain in this world.

    Bible verses:

    “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

    Abraham said, “Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.”

    The rich man answered, “Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.” – Luke 16

    The above verse shows that when people die, their souls go to either heaven or hell where they must stay. And this happens immediately after death, because the rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus back to the land of the living to warn his brothers.

    Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. Then one of them said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

    Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” – Luke 23

    Again, the Bible shows that the souls of people immediately go to the afterlife when they die, so that the repentant criminal can meet Jesus in heaven on the same day they die.

    So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

    Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
    “Bring up Samuel,” he said.

    When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul! I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.”

    Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy?” – 1 Samuel 28

    This is an interesting passage. The woman made a living from summoning the ‘souls of dead people’ so that the living could consult them. But when the spirit of Samuel appeared, she was frightened! She recognized the famous (and dead) prophet and realized that, for the first time, a real human spirit had come from the other world!

    Why is this? It is likely because when she performed her service, she was not really calling up the ghosts of the dead. She was (probably) actually calling upon demonic spirits who then pretended to be the ghosts of the deceased.

    So when a REAL ghost appeared (the ghost of Samuel), she was very afraid – it had never happened before! In this case and ONLY in this case, God allowed Samuel’s spirit to return to the world in order to deliver a message to Saul.

  44. john Says:

    13. [They (the leaders) and all … of them took for themselves] wives from all that they chose and [they began to cohabit with them and to defile themselves with them]; and to teach them sorcery and [spells and the cutting of roots; and to acquaint them with herbs.] And they become pregnant by them and bo[re (great) giants three thousand cubits high …]
    – Book of Enoch (from Translation by J. C. Greenfield

    This is a passage from the Book of Enoch, and it furthers my suspicion into the idea linking magic to the nephilim. Just interesting

  45. Scott Thong Says:

    3000 cubits high? You do know that the Book of Enoch is not considered canon, even though it is referred to once by actual canon in the Bible?

  46. Allebalycle Says:

    Thanks for the post

  47. bharat Says:

    nice post… wouldn’t necessarily agree with all of it, but very insightful…
    thanks

  48. magical Says:

    I stumbled on this by accident and I really find it interesting to read. But I have lots of things to say about.
    Do you like say demons exist only because it is written in the bible? but you cant believe in leylines and fengshui just because they cant prove it? Ever thought of the fact we cant prove if the bible tells the truth? Don’t forget all the translations made from the original that can be wrong? Ever thought of that ? I don’t think so.
    If people believe in the bible? why not all start believing in all the fantasynovels? I mean how did man ever came up with creatures like elves and dragons and like sphinxes and weird creatures, lost worlds, mermaidstuff? There must have been a source ? I mean like weird dreams with for example faeries in it and stuff? Arent dreams supposed to be a quick review of what you all have seen in you life, but then mixed together. You can tell yeah but dreams about elves for example can come because you just saw lord of the rings. But where did the man who wrote the stories got it from? Where did the man who first wrote or told stories like this got his ideas from? Not from dreams because if you have to believe the scientist like I said before they are a review of what you’ve all seen. So sorry I don’t think you can believe in the bible without believing in all other still not proved things.
    Another question: Why does magic has to come from demons, why be so negative about magic. Just because you are afraid it maybe real?? If it would be real, I wouldnt say it comes from demons. We are all a form of energy ever noticed that? I believe it there would be magic we can get it from the simplest thing, just pick some massive energy out of space? What about the stars oh wait dont look so far ever heard we live on earth. The planet itself can be used to draw magic from. Energy doesnt dissapear after its used. It just is going to a lot of different forms, for example fire: you put it on so the fire uses energy, but that energy becomes warmth, the warmth gives us energy to put another fire ( I know its a stupid example, but I just want you to get the point) Everything is some kinda sorce of energy.
    There is no such thing as bad magic, magic is magic. The way we would use it makes it bad or good magic. If you would use magic to kill whatever is alive, then that would be bad magic. If you would use magic to heal then it would be good magic.
    It’s just my point of view here. I really have respect who believe in god heaven and hell or other religions. It’s your choice away to explain things you actually cant. But sorry if I have to believe in a god then I should believe in dragons and faeries as well.
    Oh and the manavision of using magic is like a perfect way to explain how magic can work. You cant use more energy then your body and mind can handle. And like told big spells absorb more energy.
    Oh and a last comment: If you want to refer to a fantasynovel please be sure to actually read the book or books. Like in Eragon if you read the 3 books you should notice he can also draw magic out of living beings but he has to compensate that by not eating meat. In lots of fantasynovels they make this as a rule. Like in the books ‘Laws of Magic’ (dunno if it’s the right translation I read those in dutch) it’s also the rule for the man who uses the magic of a sword, when he kills he cant eat meat or he becomes awfully sick.
    I leave it with this, I hope you enjoy my respond.

  49. Scott Thong Says:

    It’s nice to hear some thought-out views.

    This post of mine is actually meant to argue a certain position, therefore I purposely slant the examples and argument to suit my position. My argument is basically that if magic comes from evil beings (i.e. demons as described in the Bible) and is only used at the pleasure of those beings, then the ultimate result of magic is always evil. According to Christian doctrine, God = good. Anything that goes against God is therefore evil. And the definition of magic is relying on anti-God demonic forces for more power.

    I’ve covered the matter of whether the Bible is likely to be true or not about spiritual matters at Easy 3 Steps to Why We Can Believe The Bible About Spirituality and Metaphysics. Basically, I argue that we can prove the Bible’s claims about proveable things (such as history or archaeology), and therefore it is more trustable as an authority on unproveable things (heaven and angels etc).

    Apart from that, there is also the personal testimony of many Christians (including myself), where coincidences too impossible to be random chance happen in response to prayer. I cover a few at Atheists: Can You Discount Every Single Testimony of Miracles and Answered Prayers?.

    This is therefore my reason for believing what the Bible says, while not believing in faeries and the Greek pantheon of gods and other religions. To me, the claims of Christianity are factual, not fantasy.

    Note too that I never claim that elves, dragons, magic etc. do not exist. I am open to the proof of the existence of anything, even the Land of Oz. However, until these things have more substantial evidence (at least close to the kind of evidence the Bible has), it’s pointless to believe in everything I hear about.

    As for the different Bible translations, the cool thing is that there are still thousands of manuscripts of Biblical Scripture (24,000+ in fact) in the original languages that we can check. For example, see Isaiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls where the copy of Isaiah found in the Dead Sea Scrolls is scientifically dated to at least 100~300 BC, and has more than 99% the exact same contents as Isaiah in the modern Hebrew Bible.

  50. magical Says:

    I still don’t believe the bible is the real thing, something i should believe. I know what te bible says; it’s not because I don’t believe in it that I’m a stuborn person who directly puts it away. I’ve read huge parts of it and for me it’s more a big story. If I should believe in a god then it wouldn’t be the christian way, but then I would chose for one of the oldest religions; natur relegions with different gods. Those religions were even before christian beliefs.
    If you would like try to put the things that happened in the bible on a timeline; then you would see that people already lived before all the things in the bible and that there were other religions.
    I think the bible was a way to try to unite people in those times. So they made up some things and yes some things probably will be true, but that doesnt makes the bible a total true book. Everyone can tell a story or write a book with true things and made up things. It’s like writing a normal book about things that can happen in real life so it would give you the feeling it happend for real; but it didn’t happen. It’s the art of a good writer: mixing up real events with unreal to let people think the unreal are real as well.

    To end I wanna point out something about translations: yes the original text still exists but how many people can actually read the original language? Even if you have studied hebrew it’s still hard to translate it. There are to many words that can have different meanings. And mostly if people translate something they take the meaning that fits most how they want it.
    Translating is a difficult job and you can be certain that in translations that there are always mistakes even small ones; but small mistakes can sometime lead to huge misunderstandings.

    I know I’m a difficult person🙂 and I think to much, but thats because I’m a curious person. I always wanna learn more and more about everything. I don’t think I’ll ever believe in a god. And if there is one and the bible is true then I don’t think I will go to hell just because I don’t believe in god. I’m a nice person and optimistic, trying to find my way in this world. If there is a god and he sends me to hell because I’m good but didn’t believe in god then I’ll be happy I didn’t. Because he wouldnt be rightous then.

    I still have respect for those who believe in a religion, but only for those who really believe not those who fake to believe to look like a better person. My whole family has respect for eachothers believes; like my aunt is a christian to but is married with a moslim. They both respect eachothers believes and they will let there children chose what they want to believe later on in there lives. My dad is like me he doesn’t believe in a god and my mother is more someone who believes in the ways of the buddha. I’ve got friends who are protestant, christian, moslim, even wicca, jehova, …. and so on. I will never look at them and see them as a bunch of lunatics because they believe in something I dont believe. I respect there choice. They probably see me as a lunatic because I dont believe at all😀.
    If I later on will have children I will never tell them they shouldnt believe; it’s their choice and their life.

    Oh and I would recommend everyone to read some more books, even fantasy. In every book fiction or non-fiction you can learn things about life. But mostly read to enjoy🙂 even the heavy ones like the bible. But if someone reads the bible then that someone should read the books of other religions as well. It’s worth it even for those who don’t believe like I.

  51. Scott Thong Says:

    I respect your viewpoints and rationale, even though I disagree with them. Your politeness is also a welcome rarity in this usually rude Net!

    You have some experience regarding the Bible; allow to me add some more information that may be helpful to your complete understanding.

    If I should believe in a god then it wouldn’t be the christian way, but then I would chose for one of the oldest religions; natur relegions with different gods. Those religions were even before christian beliefs.

    If you would like try to put the things that happened in the bible on a timeline; then you would see that people already lived before all the things in the bible and that there were other religions.

    If one takes the entire Bible timeline to be true, then it stretches back to the very first humans (Adam and Eve, as I’m sure you know) – this relationship with the Judeo-Christian God (YHWH) precedes any other

    According to Judeo-Christian theology (which I believe to be correct, but at the same time do not assume that you will take as correct), YHWH is the only true God who created everything. Any other claimed ‘gods’ are actually spiritual powers pretending to be the true god, but none have even a fraction of the power of YHWH (since YHWH created even them!).

    It’s like writing a normal book about things that can happen in real life so it would give you the feeling it happend for real; but it didn’t happen. It’s the art of a good writer: mixing up real events with unreal to let people think the unreal are real as well.

    This is a valid criticism, and there are various rebuttals by Jewish and Christian thinkers. Some of them which I’ve heard are:

    – It cannot be fiction written by authors who lived centuries after the events (e.g. the way novelists write about the 1800s today), as there are many details included that only a real person living at that time could have known – and some of these details we only discover in modern times). Examples: The details about desert life in Exodus, names of ancient kings, the existence of the Hittite empire.

    – If it were fiction intended to unite a nation or race, then the embarassing and shameful parts would not have been included. Examples: The sinful behaviour of some patriarchs and kings; the total defeat of Israel and Judah; the exile to Babylon. When comparing the legends of how other nations were founded, we find few or no such shameful events recorded.

    And if there is one and the bible is true then I don’t think I will go to hell just because I don’t believe in god. I’m a nice person and optimistic, trying to find my way in this world. If there is a god and he sends me to hell because I’m good but didn’t believe in god then I’ll be happy I didn’t. Because he wouldnt be rightous then.

    That depends a lot on where your definition of ‘righteous’ comes from. To Christians, God by definition is righteous, and so is anything He does (it was Him who invented creation, all life, and even morals after all!). If we have a different opinion, then it is actually us who are mistaken about righteousness.

    I admit that is a very biased viewpoint, but that’s how Christians define goodness, morality, justice etc.

    These two posts may help you understand the logic of hell and how only belief in Jesus Christ can avoid it while infinite good deeds cannot:

    Hell, If I Know – How hell can simply be understood as ‘where YHWH is not at’, which is exactly what non-Christians want (and get)

    Pure Soul Water – One drop of ink will make purified water no longer 100% pure water. Adding more purified water will NEVER make it pure again, as the ink is still there (no matter how minute a percentage). And if you add the ink-contaminated water to a reservoir of pure water, ALL THE RESERVOIR WATER WILL NO LONGER BE PURE. The ink must be removed to make the water pure. Follow the link for the conclusion.

  52. magical Says:

    I was raised with the vision of having respect for everyone and their way of life. That’s why I’m a polite and nice person. Maybe it’s because I’m still young (only 19years old), but I think it’s in my nature. I already have had a huge taste of the hard life in this world, but I’m still like I’m now.
    I never tell people what to do or what to believe, but just tell my opinion and they tell theirs. That’s the way people learn from eachother, get different points of view of life.
    I’m still wondered how people can fully believe in the bible or like in other religions in the koran for example. I can’t believe in it, and it’s beautifull to meet people who really do believe in it, because it helps them to face hard parts of life. I’m just mostly I think like you say maybe to rational and realistic. But I face hard parts of life on a different way then. Friends and family have great value for me.
    I have a friend as well who always wants to try me to let me believe in god, my friends who believe never give up🙂 although they know I will never follow in their belief.
    Sometimes we also start theological debates, it’s actually fun to do that. Especially because we know that we have respect for eachothers view of life.

    Just another question ( I know I’m difficult :p): Where does Yahweh come from if he would exist. He can’t just come out of knowhere right? My friends who believe in god can’t answer me on this question, they just say I have to believe he/she exists (another matter if there is a god why can’t it be a she)

    They always get annoyed when I come up with those questions.

    I’m a thinker, always thinking further and further.

    Greetings

  53. Scott Thong Says:

    I’m still wondered how people can fully believe in the bible or like in other religions in the koran for example. I can’t believe in it, and it’s beautifull to meet people who really do believe in it, because it helps them to face hard parts of life. I’m just mostly I think like you say maybe to rational and realistic. But I face hard parts of life on a different way then. Friends and family have great value for me.

    Well, Christian ‘faith’ is not about blindly believing something or somebody. It is just stupid to believe for no reason at all – just like all the people who are scammed by African black money, Ponzi schemes, email you-got-an-inheritance etc.

    Christian faith is belief based on reason and past experience. It is like how your mother takes care of you for 20 years. Then one day, she tells you to JUMP OUT THE WINDOW NOW!!!! And because you know she cares for you from those 20 years of trust and proof, you know she must have a good reason for it.

    It is that way with Christian faith in God and the Bible. From personal experience, I am persuaded that God must exist (see the last testimony of this post). From research, I find that many things the Bible claims are historically proven (see this post).

    Therefore, based on this ‘preliminary’ evidence, I choose to believe that God really is real (even though I can’t prove it 100%), and that the Bible is true (even though not every claim is proven yet).

    Just another question ( I know I’m difficult :p): Where does Yahweh come from if he would exist. He can’t just come out of knowhere right? My friends who believe in god can’t answer me on this question, they just say I have to believe he/she exists

    This is a very old question actually.

    For the first question, it is a misconception that EVERYTHING must have a beginning, including God. The accurate statement would be Everything THAT WAS CREATED must have a beginning.

    God was the one who created everything – the universe and all life, which therefore had a beginning. God Himself was not created and always existed, so He is exempt from this.

    For comparison, look at secular science – the current leading model for how the universe was formed is the Big Bang theory. Once upon a time, there was nothing. Suddenly, for no reason, it exploded into everything. (See the fifth poster at this fun collection for an illustration.)

    Where did all this everything – the entire universe – come from? Why did nothing becoming everything instead of staying nothing – especially since, according to physics, TIME ITSELF didn’t even exist before the Big Bang? Crazy!!!! Yet it is considered accepted science.

    I know it’s difficult to accept or understand such a concept, but that’s because we are stuck in 3-dimensions.

    (I have tried imagining how God created Himself – I get a headache every time, my brain feels like it cannot comprehend it!

    It also happens when I try and imagine what a 4-dimensional or 5-dimensional world looks like, since physicists believe such extra dimensions exist. It is like a 2-dimensional square trying to understand what a 3-dimensional cube is like!

    Try it yourself – just because you cannot imagine it, does not mean it cannot be real.)

    (another matter if there is a god why can’t it be a she)

    Well, actually there is nothing to stop ‘god’ from being a ‘she’. It is just that the JudeoChristian God is described in the Bible as a ‘he’ all the time. So we take it that YHWH has a ‘male’ personality – loving but disciplining like a father.

    This is not to say that YHWH is constrained because His personality is based on human maleness – rather, since humans were ‘created in the image of God’, it is human males which are based on YHWH’s maleness!

    For comparison, this question is kind of like asking why the JudeoChristian God is called YHWH instead of YHWG, or why Joseph was a carpenter and not a blacksmith, or why Tiger Woods is not named Lion Woods. It just is.

    Share these thoughts with your friends and see what they think.

  54. James WHAT THE FVCK ARE YOU TAKING ABOUT Says:

    HELLO ALL, i’d like to just congratulate you on all the bullsh*t you have vomitted up over the past few whatever. anyways i might as well have read J.K Rowlings bullsh*t on a page and learnt more than this. And as for all the crhistians who are getting tardy over athiests who don’t believe, it’s not your place to tell us what to believe in, quite the contrary, it’s our place to tell you that you are retarded. I wouldn’t be suprised if half the people who posted on here didn’t believe in evolution, or better still believed that world is flat.

    Ok another point…
    ________________________________________________
    For the first question, it is a misconception that EVERYTHING must have a beginning, including God. The accurate statement would be Everything THAT WAS CREATED must have a beginning.

    God was the one who created everything – the universe and all life, which therefore had a beginning. God Himself was not created and always existed, so He is exempt from this.
    _________________________________________________

    Ok so God exists and was not created, surely this makes no sense, it is like saying, “see that can of vaseline pure petroleum jelly 100g over there, well guess what, it doesn’t exist!”, omg i am actually willing to come round to where ever you live and personally face palm you just so you can know how much of a mental retard you are.

    Once again…..
    _____________________________________
    Where did all this everything – the entire universe – come from? Why did nothing becoming everything instead of staying nothing – especially since, according to physics, TIME ITSELF didn’t even exist before the Big Bang? Crazy!!!! Yet it is considered accepted science.
    _____________________________________

    Ok, no, wrong again. Firstly we need to consider what the definition of time is, and no i’m afraid that your wrong with your statement that, “IME ITSELF didn’t even exist before the Big Bang”, this makes no sense, unless you define time as the start of humans recognisation of time which was eras after that anyway.

    Ok, and as for whoever that guy is who says magic exists through demons or something, that’s kinda retarded, you sound like a satanist. Besides if God loves us oh so much why no just, SHOOP DA WHOOP, there ass and laser them to hell. Then no problem, doesn’t take our free will does it. I really don’t get you guys you just override each other with another retarded attempt at forcing us to believe what you believe.

    No i do not necesarily denie God and everything he/she/it is, to be honest i think all the crap about father in the sky watching other us is complete bullsh*t, yes i said it again, but if there is a god it would be something like the good inside of us, or some crap like that, i am really getting tired of typing all of this out and i’m sure your getting tired of reading, so bye

  55. Scott Thong Says:

    Ok so God exists and was not created, surely this makes no sense, it is like saying, “see that can of vaseline pure petroleum jelly 100g over there, well guess what, it doesn’t exist!”, omg i am actually willing to come round to where ever you live and personally face palm you just so you can know how much of a mental retard you are.

    Ok, no, wrong again. Firstly we need to consider what the definition of time is, and no i’m afraid that your wrong with your statement that, “IME ITSELF didn’t even exist before the Big Bang”, this makes no sense, unless you define time as the start of humans recognisation of time which was eras after that anyway.

    So tell me, oh non-retarded James, where did the universe or whatever preceded the universe come from? What created it?

    There ya go!

    Apparently, the vast majority of modern day physicists are also retards for believing the same about the universe as religious folk believe about God:

    “This is an interesting time to be a cosmologist,” Carroll said. “We are both blessed and cursed. It’s a golden age, but the problem is that the model we have of the universe makes no sense.” – Universe Today

    As summarized in this poster:

    Ok, and as for whoever that guy is who says magic exists through demons or something, that’s kinda retarded, you sound like a satanist.

    Way to skip most of the Bible verses I posted, Captain Observant. But I’ll give that I sound superficially like a satanist:

    Me: Magic is caused by demons, therefore we should avoid it.
    Satanist: Magic is caused by demons, therefore we should embrace it.

    Actually, scratch that nickname – Captain Polite and Well Mannered Good Example of An Critic of Christianity would be more descriptive. *snark*

  56. Menda Says:

    This excerpt was taken from a web site. I think it is interesting.

    The bible, Genesis 6, and the Book of Enoch give us a clear picture of
    the origins of magick. The Book of Enoch states “… and it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them… And angels, children of heaven saw and lusted after them… and all the others together took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one… and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants.” This is the first recorded or written reference to the history of magick.

  57. magical Says:

    “The Age Of The Bible

    The earliest portions of Scripture date back more than 3,300 years. However, its message has been fresh and relevant to men of every age and generation. Its pages are still producing new gems of truth, even to those who study them the most.”

    Just so you should know humans walk on this planet for more then 3300 years to be exact:
    The oldest found skeleton of a modern human so a homo sapien dates back for like 195000 years ago
    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-02/uou-toh021105.php
    PLUS knowing the oldest humanoid creature found is like 4.4 million years old :
    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/item_KSVcJUoawxktxk6UzgGFtK

    How do you explain me that the bible is written in the time when the things happend when you know the oldest written language dates from 3500BC and is called the Kish tablet consisting more out of pictures then anything else? (Look it up yourself)

    So if you believe Adam and Eve are the first humans ever then you should believe they were walking on this planet about 195000 years ago AND that everything that was told to the next generation was the truth till it finally after all those years was written down. So only the part from 3300years ago till know in the bible can be considered based on actual fact if proven but everything before not. (Like I posted a year ago: today we also write non-fiction books BASED on facts but not totally on facts)

    I still believe that religion is a way for people who are sick finding answers they cant find and say well lets tell god did it, just to make it easy and give their life a reason thats a clear for them.
    Because I think religion all started just because men asked this question: WHY ARE WE ALIVE? WHY DO WE WALK AROUND ON THIS PLANET? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF LIVE?

    And to be honest I have no idea, but I refuse to say Oh it is because of God, Allah, the greek pantheon, or whatever we humans came up with. Our mind is just to primitive to understand everything but like me and I think we all do we still want to give a reason for everything, we want to know WHY and HOW and if we don’t know the answer we make up one to ease our thinkings.
    I refuse to make up a theory and to believe one. First see then believe.

    Oh and I read somewhere in this blog that there is the big bang theory, if you would keep up with science then you should know by now that the science people found out that we didn’t poof out of nothing but that our solarsystem poofed out of the remains of another exploded solarsystem that had his time. Like our solarsystem will once have to. There are 2 possibilities now known: or our precious sun turns into an cold remaining rock or it goes BOOOM big bang AGAIN. Maybe in some time we discover other things that will clear things out for us.
    It is in our nature to find answers and it is not because we don’t have answers now that we will never find them. We keep asking the WHY and the HOW questions. Everytime we find an answer we want to know more and more and more people no longer try to find those answers in religion just to make it easy.

    Oh and one other reason I don’t believe in god: for as far as I understand the bible there is a reason for the sufferering of us all on this planet so that he later on can save all the good people who earned their place in paradise. WHY the hell let us humans destroy almost everything of this planet and even polute space. I mean we humans exist for like 195000 years in the form we walk around now so without evolution. Homo sapiens like we are now are already 195000 I mean what is his goal wait for us to walk on this planet till we reach the peak of 200 000 to have a nice round figure and then clean up the mess?

    I’m going to tell you what I tell all my friends who want to convert me to one or another religion: it is YOUR way of getting along with life, to give everything the right meaning for you, others have another way to cope with life and give everything a meaning and I am just a lunatic in your eyes the who keeps asking the why and how questions and strangly I don’t break my head by doing so, I just keep looking and if I don’t find my answers then I don’t. It is not a shame you know not to know everything it is only human.

  58. Scott Thong Says:

    Thanks for the citation, but the Book of Enoch is not accepted as part of the Bible.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch#Canonicity_in_Christianity

    If it really is so old or is genuine, however, yes it would be the oldest reference to magick I know of so far.

  59. Scott Thong Says:

    Oh and I read somewhere in this blog that there is the big bang theory, if you would keep up with science then you should know by now that the science people found out that we didn’t poof out of nothing but that our solarsystem poofed out of the remains of another exploded solarsystem that had his time. Like our solarsystem will once have to. There are 2 possibilities now known: or our precious sun turns into an cold remaining rock or it goes BOOOM big bang AGAIN. Maybe in some time we discover other things that will clear things out for us.

    This just avoids the question by pushing it back. If our present universe was formed from an earlier universe, then where did that earlier universe come from? An even earlier universe? Where did that come from?

    Everytime we find an answer we want to know more and more and more people no longer try to find those answers in religion just to make it easy.

    That is a straw man argument. Where is it that you got the idea that religious believers just read their holy texts and shut their minds up for the rest of their life? I can’t speak for others, but the Bible tells us:

    You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind – Luke 10:27

    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge – Proverbs 1:7

    Test everything. Hold on to the good.- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    It is this instruction to apply our God-given gift of sentience that has led Christians who are also scientists to make many of the discoveries throughout the centuries.

    So sure, the Bible says that God is the one who created the heavens and the earth and all life. But that does not stop Christians from asking, using what method did God do all this?

    Oh and one other reason I don’t believe in god: for as far as I understand the bible there is a reason for the sufferering of us all on this planet so that he later on can save all the good people who earned their place in paradise. WHY the hell let us humans destroy almost everything of this planet and even polute space. I mean we humans exist for like 195000 years in the form we walk around now so without evolution. Homo sapiens like we are now are already 195000 I mean what is his goal wait for us to walk on this planet till we reach the peak of 200 000 to have a nice round figure and then clean up the mess?

    Basically, it’s our own fault. God’s plan was for all of us to live in perfect paradise. We decided that we know better than God how to run our lives. The result is that God’s perfect creation and plans for us got horribly distorted. Go read Genesis 3 again, or my post The Sin Theory of Evolution.

    Do you disagree? Your comment shows that you too have decided that you know best, not God.

    As for cleaning up the mess, I believe it was Bruce Almighty that gave us the line: Be the Miracle! Jesus will return to sort out the entire planet one day, but in the meantime it is up to each of us whether we want to accept Him into our lives and start doing good to others.

    I’m going to tell you what I tell all my friends who want to convert me to one or another religion: it is YOUR way of getting along with life, to give everything the right meaning for you, others have another way to cope with life and give everything a meaning

    Agreed. I respect your freedom to choose what you want to believe and how you want to live. The most I can do is tell you my personal opinion that you have much to gain – in this life and the next – from accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour and living according to the ways God has made known to us through the Bible.

  60. Ron Says:

    “Where is it that you got the idea that religious believers just read their holy texts and shut their minds up for the rest of their life?”

    That pretty much accurately describes ever creationist, gay-basher, anti-abortionist, fundie, and JW I’ve ever met. In fact, creationists on ‘this side of the pond’ proudly affix bumper stickers with the slogan: “God said it, I believe it, that settles it!”

    “Basically, it’s our own fault. God’s plan was for all of us to live in perfect paradise. We decided that we know better than God how to run our lives. The result is that God’s perfect creation and plans for us got horribly distorted.”

    God had a plan and humans thwarted it? That makes him either less than omnisicent or less than omnipotent, or both.

    And the reality is, he’s a lousy creator. In software terms this universe could best be described as an alpha release of Windows ME. In movie terms he reminds me of the Dr. Evil from Austin Powers. First he creates a host of angels to glorify him in the heavens, and soon thereafter the brightest one defects taking another third with him. Rather than just destroy them all (or simply force them to be good) and be done with it, he creates an elaborate torture chamber called Hell, then promptly forgets to send them there. Instead they’re given free roam amongst the humans. Next he creates humans, places a temptation in their midst and sits back to watch the drama unfold. When the players act out their parts as scripted, he throws a tantrum and throws everyone off the set. From there, the plot only gets worse.

  61. magical Says:

    “And the reality is, he’s a lousy creator. In software terms this universe could best be described as an alpha release of Windows ME. In movie terms he reminds me of the Dr. Evil from Austin Powers. First he creates a host of angels to glorify him in the heavens, and soon thereafter the brightest one defects taking another third with him. Rather than just destroy them all (or simply force them to be good) and be done with it, he creates an elaborate torture chamber called Hell, then promptly forgets to send them there. Instead they’re given free roam amongst the humans. Next he creates humans, places a temptation in their midst and sits back to watch the drama unfold. When the players act out their parts as scripted, he throws a tantrum and throws everyone off the set. From there, the plot only gets worse.”

    Ron just described perfectly what I think about the existing of god. If he/she/it existed and really was a god then he wouldn’t mess things up. I mean it’s like we are an antfarm then or some pupets in his own private theater. Reality tv. If you create or do something you are responsable for it; I don’t think that if there is a god that he is really taking his/her/its responsibility. Just a silent watcher.

  62. Scott Thong Says:

    That ignores the possibility that we are an entertaining antfarm to a sadistic, evil, Warhammer 40,000 kind of god. If that is the case, forget it – live life piously and we’re screwed, life life hedonistically and we are extra screwed.

  63. Simon Thong Says:

    Did he screw up? No. His creation screwed up. Yet He took responsibility for their screw-up, just as you insisted, magical. God in Jesus Christ came to pay for our screw-ups and also fix things.

  64. Ron Says:

    It’s a poor craftsman who blames his tools. And an even worse one who blames his creation.

  65. Simon Thong Says:

    The Creator assigned no blame that He did not himself assume.

  66. Scott Thong Says:

    On the flip side, sooner or later the children have to stop blaming their parents for everything and take responsibility for their own actions.

    (Unless they’re Berkeley students or other lifelong handout recipients…)

  67. Ron Says:

    Assigning blame is a conditioned behavior which often manifests itself in those who’ve had the misfortune of living under the shadows of a cold, distant, and abusive authoritarian figure.

  68. Chris Says:

    “And the reality is, he’s a lousy creator. In software terms this universe could best be described as an alpha release of Windows ME. In movie terms he reminds me of the Dr. Evil from Austin Powers. First he creates a host of angels to glorify him in the heavens, and soon thereafter the brightest one defects taking another third with him. Rather than just destroy them all (or simply force them to be good) and be done with it, he creates an elaborate torture chamber called Hell, then promptly forgets to send them there. Instead they’re given free roam amongst the humans. Next he creates humans, places a temptation in their midst and sits back to watch the drama unfold. When the players act out their parts as scripted, he throws a tantrum and throws everyone off the set. From there, the plot only gets worse.”

    Whats the point in creating something to worship you when it has no will to worship you with? To use your software analogy. Its like creating a program for everytime you click something the words popup “YOUR AMAZING!” whats the point?

    If “God” is real and if “God” exist then he created things to worship him, but wanted them to have a free will, in order to have a free will to worship you have to have a choice to not worship and according to the bible to not worship the god is to not believe in God and that means your going to Hell.

    So God created humans to be tested so that they could chose to be with him, but while also have the choice that satan did and not chose to be with God. God is descirbed as a loving God, but he also is a wrathful God and a jealous God. Accounts of the old testment prove this to be true. God in the sense we are using it here according to these believes is for most a Just god and weighs everything on the scales that he has standardized.

    To get back on topic, when Adam and Eve sinned they sinned with their own free will, but the penalty of sin is death, and so “all of creation” was cursed. (aka a virus introduced to the software) For to be a Just God you have to punish accordingly, but God being also loving his creation had set up a “sub-routine” in order to save the “non-corrupted data”. Or outside of the software analogy, God had an alternative plan in order to save those who would use their free will to worship and obey him, and a way to punish those that wouldn’t.

    My believes are Skeptical of all things, but I can tell you that I absolutely do not believe in evolution. In many ways I was alot like magic and still am. I have talk to many different people of many different believes, and I respect them all. I also know though that they can’t all be right because the all condemn the other, so this gives us a choice, to believe one over the other or to believe in nothing.

    The ladder of those choices doesn’t make much sense to me, because that basically denies all answers as to why or how we are here.

    I said earlier that I don’t believe in evolution and I will explain why:
    The biggest question is one that has been discussed where did the original particals come from that happen to fall into our planet that happened to be in perfect position for life and then just happen to have the right ingredients to just happen to bring all these particles together who just happen to create a living material from animate objects that just happened to find a reason to evolve to survive(which case I don’t know how it came about to begin with). My problem with evolution is the “Just happens”

    Now you may ask why I don’t rule out God as a possiblity then because where did he come from?

    Well That has an explination though its not factual based. If god existed out side of time and created time and the universe. Then you have to take your perception to being timeless(which is difficult cause we are creatures of time) and then if God neither grows older nor younger cause time does not pass for him then there can be no creation of him, but there can be no destruction of him.
    Like I said no facts to back this up one of my problems with this religion.

    Well i’ve gone on for probably to long now. I enjoyed reading most of this and hoped that I’ve help to create some more speculation. Debate is the key to knowledge and that i find sacred.(Deabte for the sake of learning not for the sake of calling someone dumb)

  69. Ron Says:

    Why would a supreme being requires constant worship and adoration ego stroking? Does it have an Inferiority complex? And forced relationships hardly constitute an exercise in free will. Be my friend or I’ll beat you up isn’t much of a choice.

    As for Adam and Eve, how could they possibly know that disobedience was a sin prior to eating the fruit which would grant them the knowledge of good and evil? Seems God jumped the gun on that one.

  70. Chris Says:

    “Why would a supreme being requires constant worship and adoration ego stroking?”

    I don’t know good question, all I can say is that if it does exist I wouldn’t pretend to understand how a being out side of time and space thinks.

    “Does it have an Inferiority complex?”

    This question isn’t really as good, more of a straw-man in my opinion.
    If you have kids you teach them your view of right and wrong when they are young, and discipline when their young so does that mean parents have an inferiority complex?

    “And forced relationships hardly constitute an exercise in free will. Be my friend or I’ll beat you up isn’t much of a choice.”

    Eh you might be right except its more like be my friend or I’ll have nothing to do with you.

    “As for Adam and Eve, how could they possibly know that disobedience was a sin prior to eating the fruit which would grant them the knowledge of good and evil? Seems God jumped the gun on that one.”

    Well according to the bible, God specifically told them not to eat from that tree. I don’t know about you, but when I was young(before I could comprehend religion)I knew that if my parents told me not to do something I would reap the conscience of my actions. Also from reading the bible, I’m not sure they knew it was a sin till after they did it, they just knew the shouldn’t do it.

    “When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. ” Genesis 3 verse 6 and 7.

    “Then the eyes of both of them were opened…”
    This makes me believe that they truly didn’t know what the sin was till after they did it. Yes you could argue that they realised both of them were naked, but just like most people if they are caught naked and become ashamed try to cover themselves up. Adam and Eve realized what they did was wrong and tried to cover their shame as well.

  71. Ron Says:

    “I don’t know good question, all I can say is that if it does exist I wouldn’t pretend to understand how a being out side of time and space thinks.”

    Well that’s the problem, isn’t it? To date, we have no evidence such a deity even exists, yet there are numerous believers who boldly proclaim to know precisely what this entity wants and expects of us — right down to the minutest details of daily living — based solely on the writings found in ancient texts; and this despite the fact that those ancient texts are more often than not incongruent with one another.

    “If you have kids you teach them your view of right and wrong when they are young, and discipline when their young so does that mean parents have an inferiority complex?”

    My question about the inferiority complex was a continuation on the worship and adoration theme. I don’t expect my children to prostrate themselves at my feet and tell me how great I am at every opportunity, so why should a (supposedly) superior being require such behavior? Does that seem like the sound basis for a healthy and enduring relationship?

    With regards to discipline, the punishment is usually in proportion to the crime. Sane parents don’t condemn their children to death for simple acts of disobedience. Even so, the god of the Torah is at least satisfied to end the suffering at death, whereas the Christian god extends it to an eternity of torture in the hereafter — an infinite punishment for a finite crime.

    “Eh you might be right except its more like be my friend or I’ll have nothing to do with you.”

    And that would be completely acceptable, but the Judeo-Christian deity we read about in the Bible doesn’t allow for such an arrangement; with him it’s either worship me or endure my wrath.

    “Well according to the bible, God specifically told them not to eat from that tree. I don’t know about you, but when I was young(before I could comprehend religion)I knew that if my parents told me not to do something I would reap the conscience of my actions. Also from reading the bible, I’m not sure they knew it was a sin till after they did it, they just knew the shouldn’t do it.”

    I’ve actually addressed this issue in another thread on this blog so I’ll just repeat it here verbatim:

    Responsible parents assess their children’s capabilities and focus on creating a safe environment. They actively monitor their children’s activities and take action before things get out of control. Unsafe items which might appeal to a youngster are placed out of reach or locked away. During extended absences, guardianship is entrusted to caregivers who value and support those goals.

    Loving parents provide guidance, teach self-discipline, acknowledge honest efforts, praise achievements, and offer encouragement. They have reasonable expectations, set appropriate rules and guidelines, communicate them clearly, and apply them with fairness and consistency. Physical punishment is reserved for extreme misbehavior, and administered only as a last resort once all other alternatives have been exhausted.

    https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/physicists-believe-in-god-or-at-least-a-creator-or-designer-a-collection-of-quotes/#comment-40078

    So let’s review the situation. The god of the Bible decrees the fruit forbidden, but nonetheless places the temptation directly in their midst, and then abandons the gullible couple with a serpent that goads them into disobedience. It’s similar to a parent telling his kids not to do drugs and then leaving them unattended with a drug dealer. Who would you blame in that instance? The kids who succumb to temptation? The drug dealer who induces them to take drugs? Or the parent who lacked the foresight to anticipate the likely outcome?

  72. Ron Says:

    “And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will )receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.” (Luke 12:47-48)

    “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ” (Ephesians 6:5)

    “All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them.”(1 Timothy 6:1-2)

    “I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” (1 Tim. 2:9-14)

    “Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. (1 Corinthians 14:34)

    Meet the new boss
    same as the old boss.

  73. Scott Thong Says:

    If god existed out side of time and created time and the universe. Then you have to take your perception to being timeless(which is difficult cause we are creatures of time) and then if God neither grows older nor younger cause time does not pass for him then there can be no creation of him, but there can be no destruction of him.
    Like I said no facts to back this up one of my problems with this religion. – Chris

    Well, take your non-belief in evolution and stretch it further back in time. Where did all the particles that form our universe come from? From the Big Bang? What was there before the Big Bang? Nothing? Something? If something, where did it come from – from outside existence/reality, or did it always exist since eternity?.

  74. makayo Says:

    Ok……………………………………….
    Topics like these are somewhat difficult for me to reply too. I have read all the posts here and still find that age old adage of who’s right and who’s wrong. Who’s to say. At first I was offended then realized that was my inner atheist. So I’m gonna try to leave a polite, intelligent post.

    If you lay all your facts aside and your scripture and ask yourself do you truly believe in god your answer will be revealed to you in your mind. Just as I asked myself if I believed in god. The answer came after days of thinking and pondering and that answer was not in the biblical sense. Does that make me wrong. Not anymore than that makes you wrong.

    The funny part is I have absolutely no faith in the organization of religion.
    The reason being is the strongest of faith comes from the disorganization of religion practiced not from the book but from the heart. Do you know what you find at church? Hypocrasy. People screaming as to how much your a sinner when all your trying to do is learn about this great being.

    And if this was an isolated event from one denomination and one church then I would be out of line here. But I have been to many churches and they all resort to it. If you question what is written then your a disbeliever. And even though I appreciate the attemted open-mindedness of this blog I still see things like “thats a straw-man”.

    On your part sir that is a cop-out because he might have had a point. So do I believe in God. Yes. Do I believe he’s the jackass the christian faith makes him out to be NO! I see him in a different light. There is one thing that is said in the bible that truly makes real sense and I believe Jesus Christ said it and that was do unto other as you’d have done to you. Amazingly there is no religion taught that doesn’t have that belief. And I have met alot of Atheists who believe in that. So instead of trying to force a scripture down someone’s throat be sure your not choking them with it cause they just might be doin it right.

    So as a message to all people of faith or lack there of love your brother take care of your people and if someone isn’t walking your path don’t judge lest ye be judged.

    I apologize if this sounds negative. Now as far as true magic existing? All the time. If you believe in god then you are witnessing great magic. If you believe in nature and the landscaping she created then you believe in magic.

    As far as your time line matching up. Of course they are gonna find cities and evidence of places from that timeline. But how is that inconclusive evidence? I could write one hell of a book using present day places and when that gets dug up it will be deemed truth by society 2000 years from now too. There still is no substantial evidence just speculative. When they dig up some real evidence I may change my view until then it is still just speculation.

    Thanks for listening.

  75. makayo Says:

    Ok……………………………………….
    Topics like these are somewhat difficult for me to reply too. I have read all the posts here and still find that age old adage of who’s right and who’s wrong. Who’s to say. At first I was offended then realized that was my inner atheist. So I’m gonna try to leave a polite, intelligent post.

    If you lay all your facts aside and your scripture and ask yourself do you truly believe in god your answer will be revealed to you in your mind. Just as I asked myself if I believed in god. The answer came after days of thinking and pondering and that answer was not in the biblical sense. Does that make me wrong. Not anymore than that makes you wrong.

    The funny part is I have absolutely no faith in the organization of religion.
    The reason being is the strongest of faith comes from the disorganization of religion practiced not from the book but from the heart. Do you know what you find at church? Hypocrasy. People screaming as to how much your a sinner when all your trying to do is learn about this great being.

    And if this was an isolated event from one denomination and one church then I would be out of line here. But I have been to many churches and they all resort to it. If you question what is written then your a disbeliever. And even though I appreciate the attemted open-mindedness of this blog I still see things like “thats a straw-man”.

    On your part sir that is a cop-out because he might have had a point. So do I believe in God. Yes. Do I believe he’s the jackass the christian faith makes him out to be NO! I see him in a different light. There is one thing that is said in the bible that truly makes real sense and I believe Jesus Christ said it and that was do unto other as you’d have done to you. Amazingly there is no religion taught that doesn’t have that belief. And I have met alot of Atheists who believe in that. So instead of trying to force a scripture down someone’s throat be sure your not choking them with it cause they just might be doin it right.

    So as a message to all people of faith or lack there of love your brother take care of your people and if someone isn’t walking your path don’t judge lest ye be judged.

    I apologize if this sounds negative. Now as far as true magic existing? All the time. If you believe in god then you are witnessing great magic. If you believe in nature and the landscaping she created then you believe in magic.

    As far as your time line matching up. Of course they are gonna find cities and evidence of places from that timeline. But how is that inconclusive evidence? I could write one hell of a book using present day places and when that gets dug up it will be deemed truth by society 2000 years from now too. There still is no substantial evidence just speculative. When they dig up some real evidence I may change my view until then it is still just speculation.

    Thanks for listening.

    Sorry one more thing
    And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. – 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

    BY your bible own words how am I to know your not one of these and how can your faith alone stand tall with wiritngs like these in your book.
    This passages power alone can make anyone doubt even your bible which is why I choose to do thing the way I do. And why real believers spoken of in the bible didn’t need a book just an open mind.

  76. gabriella Says:

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  77. gabriella Says:

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  78. Simon Thong Says:

    Ron, after a period of absence, returns with the same nit-picking way to scripture.

    Meet the new Ron
    Same as the old Ron

  79. rotfl Says:

  80. MAGIC USER Says:

    Demons HA! Demons are USERS OF MAGIC, NOT the CREATORS OF IT.

    Magic exists as MANA, just as Normal Energy exists. It cannot be created, it cannot be destoried. Only manipulated. It is woven into reality just like energy is. Actually, MANA is a form of ENERGY in one system of it.

    Demons use MANA, ANGELS USE MANA! GOD USED MANA TO CREATE THE EARTH!

    So before you say “demons this and that”. Look into what is the reality of your own faith. Mana is used as a tool to shape reality. God is a manifestation of MANA that has pooled together to create a being. Then God being alone, pooled mana into the void to create his Angels, but the problem here is that God not yet understanding that MANA is volitile and being a BEING OF GOOD AND EVIL, He did not know that by weaving with a vile hand he caused his angels to become corrupt, which then they transformed into Demons.

    Lucifer then used MANA to shape his kingdom, which God also used his benevolent hand rather then his vile one to Shape his kingdom.

    Mana is energy of existence and the void is the canvass in which mana is used as paint.

    Don’t EVER give demons that. Christians are the reason for all the problems in the world, if you stopped being so ridiculous in you beliefs and understood anything you would be able to feel and understand the truth. Blind you all are by something that is a mere collection of energy which lives in the void.

    Stop feeding the demons with your lies.

  81. Simon Thong Says:

    MAGIC USER speaks eloquent LIES and DISTORTIONS. Highly opinionated, you feed demons by giving to them your energy.

    Read the Bible. Open your heart to the Holy Spirit. Be humble. You are human and have NO magic.

  82. Scott Thong Says:

    Ehh, MAGIC USER… It’s kind of difficult to argue on metaphysics and philosophy without bringing in some physical evidence to back up our positions.

    I mean, you say God is a manifestation of mana, while I say God is an infinite spiritual being. How are we supposed to prove one or the other view right or wrong?

    For my part, I can bring in the Holy Bible. It not only describes the Christian view of God, magic, demons, angels and etc, it also describes historical events, persons, places, political conditions and more. The former cannot be proven by modern scientific methods yet (neither can your view on them), but the latter can be checked through modern research. In this way I have a ‘witness’ who has part of its testimony already proven (earthly matters) which makes the remainder of its argument (on spiritual matters) more trustworthy.

    Furthermore, I can bring in the personal testimonies of countless Christians who have had personal encounters with God, answered prayers and miracles, and lives transformed for the better.

    What can you bring to the table to lend credence to your point of view on magic?

  83. MAGIC_USER Says:

    I mean, you say God is a manifestation of mana, while I say God is an infinite spiritual being. How are we supposed to prove one or the other view right or wrong?

    Yes I can. Do I have to, no. But the thing is, spiritual energy is the same as mana. Mana being an energy force of all creation. Something like the way the everything exists is because of the universal energy of well the universe.

    Whatever your name for it may be, its all the same thing. It the energy that has existed before anything else. Even older than the christian bible are the pagan stories that speak of mana. Most of the christian stories are rip offs of pagan stories anyway.

    Semantics is what causes the argument, not the actual nature of existence.

    What I can bring to the table is not only scientific discoveries that are provable but also pagan stories that have long existed before the forged documents known as the holy bible. Not only this but the holy bible itself has been re-written to suit the needs of kings past and church authors.

    Use your own mind and heart to decide the truth instead of a physical document that has been corrupted by the needs of men. Think, listen, contemplate. The answers are inside you, hopefully.. but you may be drowning them with the brain washings of religious education. Any sort of education that is not actual knowledge can limit your understanding and processing ability of existence. Stop seeing with your eyes and see with your spirit.

  84. Scott Thong Says:

    Yes I can. Do I have to, no. But the thing is, spiritual energy is the same as mana. Mana being an energy force of all creation. Something like the way the everything exists is because of the universal energy of well the universe.

    Okay, I have no argument with that – you call it mana, I call it spirit, mayhaps some Jedi fanboy calls it The Force.

    Of course you don’t have to prove that your view is correct, but it would be helpful in convincing others that you are correct.

    Most of the christian stories are rip offs of pagan stories anyway.

    Semantics is what causes the argument, not the actual nature of existence.

    What I can bring to the table is not only scientific discoveries that are provable but also pagan stories that have long existed before the forged documents known as the holy bible. Not only this but the holy bible itself has been re-written to suit the needs of kings past and church authors.

    This I can argue from a ‘scientific’ standpoint, as it involves historical documents.

    So go ahead, tell me what you think you know about how the Bible rips off pagan stories and was re-written over the ages. I bet I know a some things you may not be aware of regarding this issue.

    Use your own mind and heart to decide the truth instead of a physical document that has been corrupted by the needs of men. Think, listen, contemplate. The answers are inside you, hopefully.. but you may be drowning them with the brain washings of religious education. Any sort of education that is not actual knowledge can limit your understanding and processing ability of existence. Stop seeing with your eyes and see with your spirit.

    I’ve debated this point before, with a self-proclaimed Christian no less.

    When you say to rely on my spirit, who is to say that I am right or wrong in my conclusions? Let’s say I see with my spirit and it tells me that God is as the Bible says He is. Meanwhile, you see with your spirit and conclude that all is mana.

    Back to the same problem, we have no way to determine who is right. It’s all subjective because our spirits may tell us different things.

  85. Simon Thong Says:

    The answers are inside you, hopefully.. but you may be drowning them with the brain washings of religious education – MAGIC_USER Says:
    April 5, 11 at 9:59 am

    I bet you didn’t get your answers from inside yourself, especially the crap about ripping off old pagan beliefs, or the part about the holy bible itself having been re-written to suit the needs of kings past and church authors. I bet you read that kind of rubbish, that it didn’t come fom inside yourself. I reckon the magic of writing that you now use was taught to you, and didn’t come from inside you either.

    What did you get inside yourself? Can’t be much. Self-fantasy? Or just downright badness. “It is what comes out of the mouth that makes a person unclean.” Matt 15.11

    Thus, while it is one thing to say, “Use your own mind and heart to decide the truth”, I doubt whether your mind or heart helped you much except made you feel so self-important.

  86. MAGIC_USER Says:

    Lol, you have made no arguments against what I said. Only misunderstood it.

    Actually, I don’t know what you’re talking about, the magic of writing? Well, actually, I learned this language from different sources such as books, socializing, listening, and information gathering, so, yes I did learn this myself.

    Also, no, I didn’t READ that the stories were stolen, its just happens to be truth, as all stories no matter how “different” they may seem all spawn from the same origins and just change over time and from person to person to suit their needs.

    To believe that “the bible” has flawless truth or to believe that lies weren’t written into the bible, or to believe that the current bible of today hasn’t been defaced is to walk blindly into the lion’s mouth. Your gullibility faults you. Your inability to perceive other possibilities faults you.

    I say there is no god, no magic, no universe, no comprehension of existence and you will say “open your eyes”.

    Open my eyes? That do what? Receive information that has to be interpreted through a inferior medium? Or is their maybe something else, something we cannot see, understand, or comprehend that is the possibility of all things. No one can say.

    I say that god, magic, the spirit, the body, the universe, everything that we can perceive is all the same. You will say again, “Open your eyes!” I will say, even a blind man knows that everything is the same, even if the textures, colors, temperatures change, they are the same.

    God is no more superior that the world he is supported by, nor is anything greater than another. The bible will tell you different. Why? Because people are ignorant to truth. Truth is something that cannot be attained until everything you think you know is left behind.

    Why do you believe that, in your small amount of time existing on this earth. That everything someone has told you, has written on a physical medium, has bore deep into, is truth? Because the society you were raised in believed it? Because it was something you were taught was truth? Because it is something you believe is truth even though many times over their have been others who can put an argument against it?

    History changes, people write history to how THEY saw it, not to how it actually happened. Publishing’s that are for the masses are made intentionally to control and confuse humans. I hope you don’t read the newspaper and believe every single little article in it. I hope you don’t read anything and believe that it is absolute truth.

    You can’t even believe the words of “god” if he has spoken through a natural medium. The truth is, reality gets distorted by everything. Your eyes, ears, nose, mouth, skin, all of your senses will betray you from finding truth.

    Because truth doesn’t rely on sense, it doesn’t rely on right or wrong, or what any being has said or will say.

    Not even anything ever written can be taken as truth. Everything is just artificial, even the word “natural” is artificial. The only thing that is natural is the energy of the universe. What it can form and create, how it reacts to itself, this is where truth is.

    Truth is merely knowing that you will never know the truth. To not fall into gullibility but to react to the energy in proper manner. How you do is dependent on how many reactions has occurred with the energy that makes up your body.

    Every person, every thing in existence, has frequencies in them, the movement of their own energy, this changes, shapes, reacts, and makes us who we are. Whenever you move, think, act, react, you change existence. You could be affecting the flight pattern of a moth in another country.

    Everything is connected, we are all the same, this isn’t something you have to be taught, its something you can recognize. Mana, Spirit, Light, Force, Energy, Holy, and all the other thousands of words for the same thing. They don’t mean anything because I can make up a new word and call it that. Humans spend too much time trying to make their own beliefs right, instead of trying to understand that they are all wrong.

    If one being makes up all of existence, this one being is not a being at all, not an entity, not even existent. It couldn’t. Because it wouldn’t be allowed. By its own rules in which it has to govern itself, this being would merely be a figment of its own imagination. Paradoxes are how our universe runs, their is no truth, their is only infinity.

    Someday, maybe we will discover who the christian god as well as all the other gods really were. I don’t believe they were gods at all in the power and imagination that we have of them now, but they may have just been extra-planar beings. Maybe even most of these “gods” were killed by men who didn’t understand at the time their origin.

    Creatures can exist in all forms of energy. Your idea of a god may even just be a predator waiting to devour you. Enticing you with ideas of paradise because of the hardships of living in a physical body.

    If anything, if god exists in the way the bible portrays, then he would not allow a hell to exist, because if such a place existed then beings could rise from it with infinitely larger power than even his own. Instead, the “paradise” would just be a moment, that would be perceived as an eternity, then your energy would be recycled, your thoughts, feelings, emotions, memories, would disappear. You would be nothing but the electrical energy you started out as. One day to reform in several other beings. But you will never be who you were, your thoughts and ideas will change, your acceptance of a god will be unimportant, you will just start over.

    Can’t say any of this is true, can’t say anyone is ever right. But I know what I’ve experienced on a level far above the physical.

    So feel safe with your delusional mind, but just do your best to help all those around you, this is a teaching of man not god.

  87. Scott Thong Says:

    Lol, you have made no arguments against what I said. Only misunderstood it.

    Actually, I don’t know what you’re talking about, the magic of writing?

    I think you’re the one not understanding here. Magic of writing? WTF??? Who brought up that topic, sure wasn’t me!

    Also, no, I didn’t READ that the stories were stolen, its just happens to be truth, as all stories no matter how “different” they may seem all spawn from the same origins and just change over time and from person to person to suit their needs.

    Yeah… That’s like me saying I didn’t READ that magic is demonic in nature, it just happens to be the truth.

    We can’t get anywhere with that kind of reasoning.

    To believe that “the bible” has flawless truth or to believe that lies weren’t written into the bible, or to believe that the current bible of today hasn’t been defaced is to walk blindly into the lion’s mouth. Your gullibility faults you. Your inability to perceive other possibilities faults you.

    Whatever of an expert you might be in ‘magic’, you obviously are not so well acquainted with Biblical textual accuracy.

    Show me what proof you think you have that the Bible has been corrupted. I already know what proof I have to show you that it has NOT been.

    I will say, even a blind man knows that everything is the same, even if the textures, colors, temperatures change, they are the same.

    I see my mistake here now.

    It is pointless and impossible to try and use Greek style, dichotonomous logical debate with someone whose philosophy is that “1 is 1 and also is NOT 1, simultaneously”. Tell me if I’m mistaken.

    I might as well use your style of argument based entirely on presuppositions. Watch me:

    I will say, even a deaf man knows that everything is NOT the same, even if the textures, sounds, temperatures stay the same, they are the different.

    See how much (non)sense you make?

    So having learned the error of trying to use logic and reason with you, I will instead just have fun by making snarky comments from here on.

    I hope you don’t read the newspaper and believe every single little article in it. I hope you don’t read anything and believe that it is absolute truth.

    Don’t worry, I don’t unquestioningly believe everything I read… Especially your comments above! Zing!

    Truth is merely knowing that you will never know the truth.

    Everything I say is a lie, including what I am saying now.

    The only rule is that there are no rules.

    Do not read this sentence, and do not do what I say in this sentence.

    Etc etc etc

    Whenever you move, think, act, react, you change existence. You could be affecting the flight pattern of a moth in another country.

    Focus my thought energy as I might, I can’t get you in wherever you are to utter an ounce of sense.

    Mana, Spirit, Light, Force, Energy, Holy, and all the other thousands of words for the same thing

    I can think of a thousand words that are the same as your rambling, if you catch my drift…

    Humans spend too much time trying to make their own beliefs right, instead of trying to understand that they are all wrong.

    Except you, of course. Right?

    Paradoxes are how our universe runs, their is no truth, their is only infinity.

    I reiterate my point about logic vs. 1 equals 1 not equals 1.

    Your idea of a god may even just be a predator waiting to devour you. Enticing you with ideas of paradise because of the hardships of living in a physical body.

    Reading your treatise would be one of those horrible, horrible hardships right now.

    If anything, if god exists in the way the bible portrays, then he would not allow a hell to exist, because if such a place existed then beings could rise from it with infinitely larger power than even his own.

    You keep accusing me of getting what I know from reading, but it seems your own knowledge of what the Bible portrays hell to be is gotten solely from sensationalist Hollywood films.

    Can’t say any of this is true, can’t say anyone is ever right. But I know what I’ve experienced on a level far above the physical.

    That’s funny, because countless religious mystics similarly claim to have experienced what they *know* to be true on a level far above the physical. Does your testimony therefore outweigh theirs?

    So feel safe with your delusional mind, but just do your best to help all those around you, this is a teaching of man not god.

    So feel safe with your delusional mind, but just do your best to not become a bedraggled, screaming loony who hacks up bystanders because they are the ‘same’ as spiritual energy that must be returned to the Matrix. This is the advice from me, who is also not me – which should make sense and not make sense to you who is me.

  88. Simon Thong Says:

    1 MAGIC_USER Says:
    April 23, 11 at 3:11 am Also, no, I didn’t READ that the stories were stolen, its just happens to be truth, as all stories no matter how “different” they may seem all spawn from the same origins and just change over time and from person to person to suit their needs.

    Well, let me quote your words back to you: Your gullibility faults you. Your inability to perceive other possibilities faults you.

    2 MAGIC_USER Says: I will say, even a blind man knows that everything is the same, even if the textures, colors, temperatures change, they are the same.

    No, I know someone who is blind, and nothing is the same: smells are different, brighter and darker colors appear differently, and he can feel different temperatures. You just mouth off, speaking meaningless things. Why are you like this? Because YOU are the focus of your own thoughts, and fail to relate to the knowledge of others. YOU decide what is right or wrong (which comes across strongly), and wrong to you is right and right wrong. You are out of sync with the world outside yourself.

    3 You contradict yourself, and sound like some of the things TV script writers make their ‘profound’ actors say. Probably coz you stole them. For example, “Truth is merely knowing that you will never know the truth.” Haha, heard and read that umpteen times. And if that is true, why should anyone listen to you since you don’t know the truth? Or why should you pretend to know anything since you acknowledge that you don’t know the truth and you will never know the truth?

    You go on and on, telling us the ‘truth’ about Christianity as something createed by man. But how would you know? You yourself said at the end of your rambling: “Can’t say any of this is true, can’t say anyone is ever right. But I know what I’ve experienced on a level far above the physical.”

    You’re delusional but how would you be able to see that? LOL

  89. Simon Thong Says:

    Btw, are you high on weed? You sound like some of the guys I met at a rock festival in NZ in the 70s. Weed speaks for you?

  90. MAGIC_USER Says:

    @Scott : Simon guy said magic of writing.🙂

    @Both : Everything is the same, everything is made up of particles of the same thing. These particles all produce different effects which our brains interpret.

    @Scott : 1 DOES equal 1 and ALSO DOES NOT equal 1. Don’t you know anything about math and science. I suggest you look it up.

    @Both : If you wish to do as many will have always done before you when someone brings up a point that is against your views that you cannot defend against, this is to: Change the context of it to bend it to your will without understanding its meaning. Then go ahead, in the end it just makes you look like a fool.

    I may contradict myself because the fact is, everything in the world in itself is contradictory. If you haven’t understood this rule then you cannot advance.

    Proof of such contradictions exist in the bible, nature, and perception. Or should I say, exist BECAUSE of perception.

    If you said the grass is green, I could say you are wrong, the grass is actually red and ultraviolet. But due to reflection of light and human perception and visual interpretation it is green.

    If you showed me a flower and you said the flower was Magenta, I would say, that is impossible, because the color Magenta does not exist. But you would point it to me and say, we can see it exists here! This again is because of your minds interpretation of the missing color. You cannot possibly see its ACTUAL color, so you have to combined red and blue to assume that is the missing color.

    If you cannot understand that 1 is 1 and also is not 1 at the same time, then how can you argue that a demon is not the source of magic, but instead the source of demons as well as all beings of “spiritual nature” are created from magic.

    You do not understand what magic is, so therefor you cannot argue where it comes from or how it exists naturally without the need for a source.

    Magic is incomprehensible. Magic is understanding the contradictions of natural order and law and exploiting it. Magic is everything from collective consciousness to impossible particle physics. More.

    If “god” could walk the earth, there would be an even more powerful force that could destroy “god”. If that force was used there would be an equally powerful force that could nullify it, but both forces would be the same. Then there would be a 3rd and even 4th force that would contribute to making a 5th even powerful force.

    Explore your world more, stop taking for granted the things that are here. Stop trying to fight against what you don’t understand, instead just try to understand more about the existence of everything.

    How would have “god” done anything he has done if not by the use of some energy. How would “god” have been formed if not by the combination of lesser energies. How could he conceive up such evil and vile creatures if he himself was not evil and vile to begin with. Because the truth is, he is both good and evil. But he himself exists and does not exist at the same time.

  91. MAGIC_USER Says:

    What is delusion but a difference in opinion of reality. How can delusional one be wrong if he sees it as correct. Maybe you are the one who is delusional, after all, maybe we are all in mass delusion of the actual reality.

    Were not those who believed the world was round “delusional” to those who “knew for a fact” the world was flat?

    Remember, not to long ago, it was mass belief that the world was flat and you could fall of the edge if you sailed to far, some even had stories of being to the edge.

  92. Simon Thong Says:

    How do you manage to speak through your mouth and bottom at the same time?

  93. Scott Thong Says:

    How do you manage to speak through your mouth and bottom at the same time?

    Everything/nothing is/isn’t possible/impossible with/without this/that person/nonperson.

    If the above line makes no sense, what to do – that’s about the only way to discuss with a non-dichotomic thinker where two/ten/infinite contradictory statements can coexist.

  94. Simon Thong Says:

    poor guy is confused, maybe using the pc in his cell in a mental asylum..under treatment for delusion?

    1+1=2; 1+1=0; 1+1=1; 1+1=65…and all are correct…lol

  95. Zack T Says:

    Magic_User makes total sense!! You Thongs are just jealous of his ub3r-ness!

    [/sarc]

    Explore your world more, stop taking for granted the things that are here. Stop trying to fight against what you don’t understand, instead just try to understand more about the existence of everything. ~Magic_User

    Seems to me, based on what Magic_User said, more like “Stop trying to fight against what you don’t understand, instead just IMAGINE SOME EXPLANATION IN YOUR HEAD about the existence of everything.”

    Magic_User can’t seem to comprehend the concept/idea/difference between reality and delusion/imagination and what’s physically provable and what’s not.

  96. Scott Thong Says:

    Someone else try to seriously and calmly explain to him/her/it why it is impossible to have a discussion with his/her/its mentality that way.

  97. Simon Thong Says:

    do you think he’ll use his imagined magic to zap us?

  98. Zack T Says:

    Truth of the matter is.. according to Magic_User’s logic… there’s no point trying to explain it to him/her/it..

    Why? Because…

    1 – Nothing is right or wrong… he/she/it won’t be able to tell his right from his left or up from down or vice versa… the ground is the sky and the sky is the ground… water is fire and fire is ice. Green is black, black is white, white is red… there’s no end to the type of argument or explanation with his line of thought/logic.

    2 – Magic_User’s own gender is put in question then… Is he a male or a female? or a shemale? or a trans? or an ‘it’? or none of the above!? Or a figment of our very own imaginations.

    3 – His very existence is questionable. He will argue that he exists and lives just like any other human being.. but we can just say ‘no’ and that he is actually our delusion and that we are just acting out a theoretical/hypothetical scenario where some random commenter decides to throw us an equally random comment which is just as equally random with its line of thought and logic and we randomly decided to name this random commenter, ‘Magic_User’…

    Oh… there ya go. The impossibility of discussion with his/her/its mentality… ^_^

  99. Simon Thong Says:

    oh no, it exists: it posts on the Net, therefore it exists (remember I Kant, cogito, ergo sum?)

  100. Zoom Says:

    I like how you did not go off into the deep end and start spewing how we are all going to hell and stuff. This was also inspirational as well, makes me want to draw again so thanks for that.

    My one and only problem is how everyone freaks about the deamon stuff, its a simple cause and effect, a contract is signed, and both partys are to abide on the contract. At the end of the process a transaction is due and in most cases it is your imortal soul, sometimes its somthing else, for better or worse.

    Not a devil worshiper, just FYI.

  101. Kevin Says:

    I think you missed one of the most important examples of Fantasy Magic. Middle Earth. In J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle Earth, magic comes from the Ainulindale, which is the Song of Creation. In this world, Eru Iluvatar (“God”) is the composer and conductor of the Ainulindale, and his angelic chorus (the Ainur) are the performers. One of the Ainur (Melkor) corrupts the song and introduces evil into it.

    This parallels our Earth scenario perfectly (by the intention of the author: Tolkien was a devout Catholic).

    Your analogy that demons are the source of all magic is, therefore, incomplete and riddled with a very important hole: Demons are Fallen Angels. Demons draw their power from God. So do Angels.

    God is, therefore, the source of magic.

  102. Scott Thong Says:

    Nice exposition. I apologize as my background is in pop fantasy/sci-fi, hence my knowledge of the classics like LotR is somewhat lacking.

  103. ipad priser Says:

    There is certainly a great deal to find out about this issue.
    I really like all the points you’ve made.

  104. DarthL33T Says:

    If this is true, then defeating demons is easy as pie: just do magic until you use it all up.

  105. Scott Thong Says:

    I doubt that any demon with a modicum of intelligence would allow itself to be drained of all its energies.

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  107. Rodney James Says:

    You’ve got it right. But in addition, the spilling of blood, especially human blood, is most appealing to these demons, why? Because the life of the soul is in the blood. Life force serves to replenish and even amplifies magic.Magic is the corrupted form of “Holy Spirit”. Like humans, holy spirit served as a fallen Angels arms, hands, legs & foot. When they were tossed out of heaven, God removed their ability to take physical form (probable to prevent them from having more children See “The Nephilim”, amongst other things)., they have also had their powers reduced, it has made it more difficult to posses humans (which is disgusting to normal Angels as is having sex).Infact, it takes more demons to possess one human and even then, that humans “will” needs to be severely weakens by drugs. To many demons in one body will do great damage, as they will all struggle to be the single dominating “will”.

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