The following is my reply to several remarks made at http://yuki-thejourney.blogspot.com.
The blogger linked to and excerpted some of the things I said in my post Gay Pastor Wants to Start Church in KL.
Non-Blogger members cannot post comments on said blogger’s site, so I reply to the remarks made here. The blogger’s remarks are in bold italics.
“christian popes had murdered alot of scientists long ago just because they denied what the popes told the society …
I’d like to see the documented basis for this ‘fact’… As opposed to Wikipedia on myths regarding science and Wikipedia on the relationship between religion and science (under ‘Perspectives on the historical relationship between religion and science’).
And non–religious people had lots of their own myths that they stubbornly clinged to, such as spontaneous generation and an infinitely old, unchanging universe (both of which remove the need for a Creator).
You might add evolution to that bag. And those who are skeptical of global warming are being treated in the same spirit as your quotation claims the Popes treated heliocentric supporters. Religion doesn’t have the monopoly on bias, arrogance and bullying.
I’ve met a few Christians that believe that homosexuality is worse than murder. They base this belief on what I said above. One time act vs. a continuous lifestyle choice. Ken R – exgaywatch.
I believe you are familiar with the Christian doctrines on forgiveness of sins.
Let’s say I murdered many people in cold blood. After years of killing, I regret what I did and repent. I turn to Christ for forgiveness and change my lifestyle, surrendering myself to the police if I haven’t already been caught. Am I thus saved and justified by God? Doctrine says YES.
But let’s say I did all the above murdering, and did not repent. If I continue on in my lifestyle, am I saved? Doctrine says NO.
What if I accept Christ as my saviour, and continue my murdering? Doctrine says NO.
Now, not to equate murder to homosexuality (murder is far worse in my book), but it’s the issue of repentance.
If Hitler and Stalin, the kings of mass murder themselves, were to accept Christ and change their life, they would be saved!
But if the most petty of accounting fraudsters, stealing pennies a day, claimed to accept Christ but refused to admit his wrong and change… He’d still be condemned.
It is worse FOR the homosexual who doesn’t repent and change than FOR the one-time murdered who begs God’s forgiveness… Like the parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14.
(Assuming of course that homosexuality IS a willful sin before God’s eyes. And I’m placing homosexual rationalizers as the Pharisee here, not myself.)
We give every reason to why the old laws of Leviticus could not be applied at our times now, but totally singling out homosexuality. Why?
Because the laws of Leviticus are applied to Jews, and we are not Jews.
However, the New Testament is strongly opposed to homosexual behaviour. If one argues that it is only as bad as gossiping and slandering, well then, I respond that those ‘minor’ sins are actually very bad indeed! I could debate the meaning and application of said NT passages if you wish.
It is nearly an end game for ex-gay ministries in throughout the world. At the turn of the century, homosexuality is now confirmed as inborn, and not socially constructed.
I tend to be skeptical of any claim that a behaviour is 100% nature or 100% nurture. In the case of sexual orientation, there are many confirmed cases of exposure to environment influencing the sexual ‘orientation’.
Pastor Edmund Smith (although you think not-highly of him) is one example, as are the stories of people he ministered to. And yes, amazingly, many of them WERE ‘cured’. But I would rather say, repented and were renewed by the Holy Spirit.
Is alcoholism or propensity for violence genetically determined? Very likely in part, but does that give one a license to be drunken or smash furniture? Does being ‘born that way’ make it any more acceptable before God? Not likely.
The definition of the ‘homosexual lifestyle’ is still one of the most bothersome questions Christians can ever answer. The word ‘lifestyle’ itself is as vague as homosexual ‘behaviour’. What constitutes the ‘sinful lifestyle’? Going to a mall? How is it any different than a heterosexual lifestyle?
The difference is clear and simple: One has sexual and romantic thoughts about the same gender. Going to the mall, eating breakfast, worshipping in church… Everything is the same, but the mentality and heart are what makes the difference.
Example, images of provocative artistes such as Shakira and Beyonce are on display almost every single day. Their adulteress like ‘behaviour’ on MTV, barely clothed and hip shaking shows are watched by millions all across the world. So how can we support that and say that it is okay, but the expression of two men in love considered a higher level of sin?
We cannot support or condone it. I get really riled up by the sin pumped into our homes and cars every day by disgusting MTV, especially R & B! I strongly condemn it! This is the true religion of the Blue States of the USA – the flesh and the self!
I advise anyone I know not to let themselves be polluted with sex-worshipping corruption like this. Turn off that radio and switch off that TV!
HIV/AIDS does not discriminate.
Agreed. If people would just STOP SLEEPING AROUND, the scourge of HIV would not even be a minor problem.
Being homosexual is not defying God’s law. Sadly, as it is well known ever since 1949, bias crept into the Bible through translators.
Then let’s use the 1611 A.D. Old King James version:
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals (catamites), nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” - 1st Corinthians 6:9-10
Or, how about this:
“Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” - Romans 1:24-27
Not good enough for you? We’ll use Romans 1:24-27 in the original Greek the NT was written in:
Word for word translation:
Proof enough for you? Rather than the mainstream churches changing the clear meaning or commentators adding subtext, it takes a lot of twisting and wrangling to avoid the implications of these passages. And New Testament nonetheless, so any Leviticus-type objections are null.
Reference: Greek NT – Byz./Maj. and Greek/English Interlinear (TR) at http://www.olivetree.com/bible/
Bible in Greek and pop-up dictionary for every word at http://www.zhubert.com
Next, we can attend services focusing on honesty by a convicted white-collar criminal. [Scott’s words]
It is amazing how a person could not separate criminal activity, with love between two men.It is amazing how a person could not separate criminal activity, with love between two men.
That and Michael Jackson were just popular examples to illustrate the point. Try these instead, they have the same meaning:
Next, we can attend services focusing on holiness in thought led by a pornographic website host. And then, learn about how to be chaste from 17-year old Ms. Shelley, who is pregnant with her fifth child of unknown parentage. Finally, let’s learn how to read God’s word as fable from an atheist professor of Higher Criticism and Biblical Deconstructivism.
The VAST majority of mainstream REAL church are known as Christian liberals.
I would argue that the VAST majority of FAKE AND SUPERMARKET CONSUMER churches are liberal.
Seriously, why even adopt Christianity if you don’t believe in God’s judgement? If He isn’t going to judge us, then we don’t need Christ’s forgiveness. Go and vote Democrat already.
It is not the orientation. It is the person. God judges the matters of the heart, remember?
Is the heart really, truly seeking to please Him by following His precepts? Or is it reasoning and rationalizing to itself in order to justify its earthly desires?
Besides, it is a misconception that the heart is what counts. If I have a good heart and do good deeds but never receive Christ, am I then saved?
If my heart SINCERELY tells me that killing non-believers is a holy and commendable thing that the victims deeply appreciate, does God smile upon my pure motives? Or am I a nutcase?
I do not think any person would agree to that. The third world mentality of some young men is really getting stale. So I can be born left handed and I cannot be a Christian? I am born with a third hand, so I am left out of His kingdom?
If the first world mentality is “Hey, let’s decide for ourselves what should be moral right and wrong and interpret the Scripturs to suit our agenda!”… Then I am exceedingly proud to be third world.
You can be born with huge claws for hands and an insatiable bloodlust, but if you seek God and obey His laws, you’ll be fine by Him.
My point is simply: God condemns homosexuality. How can one claim to be a follower, a servant, as subject of God and disobey Him blatantly to His face? Worse, disobey and say that God thinks it’s a great thing you do?
When two or three homosexuals or heterosexuals gather in the name of the Lord, it is therefore called a church. Something must be wrong when Christians still think the church is a building. Probably to much anguish caused by attending talks by a confused misinformative ministry.
You missed the point entirely.
What I am saying is, if you don’t follow the Christian rules, puh-leeze don’t hijack the Christian terms. It’s bad enough that half the cults out there say that they have the ‘real’ teachings of the ‘real’ Second Coming of Christ or whatever.
A church is Christ-obeying people, gathering wherever it may be. So please, don’t call a group of Christ-disobeying-and-self-rationalizing people a church. Make a new religion or something. The Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Reverend Moon will give you pointers.
God chooses pastors for the church. Some people just loves playing God.
What’s to stop fakes from CLAIMING that God chose them for their church? I can do that too, just watch:
“GOD CHOSE ME TO BE THE NEXT POPE!!! IT IS HIS WILL THAT I SUPPORT MANDATORY STERILIZATION OF ALL HUMANS!!!”
“…Hey, why isn’t anyone listening to my divine revelation? God chose me what!”
I agree on the playing God bit, but I would say it is those who decide what SHOULD be right and wrong and twist the Word of God to fit their perception. But of course, I would be accused of that by those people, right? Ah, the vagaries of subjectivity…
Christians are overrated. I will settle with believer in Christ. I am utterly astonished at how some fundamentalist people still fail to remember Christian fundamentals such as John 3:16.
Too many people spout on about God’s love, and too few remember God’s holiness, righteousness and judgement in countless passages, such as Ecclesiastes 12:14 - “For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.”
The Bible according to some fellow who is hogwashed by another fellow who was hogwashed… Or we could just read the Bible as just the Bible, without questions, without interpretations and without prejudice; not picking up lines and make them justifications to stampede on a minority group just because we feel uncomfortable with them. Now, THAT would grief the Holy Spirit.
What grieves the Holy Spirit is men like Paul warned of in 2nd Timothy 4:3 - “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”
Matthew 7: 1-2
“1Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
Ah, the favourite defensive verse of the accused. I always respond that I am ready to stand in the courtroom of God, convinced and convicted of the righteousness of my beliefs. Are you?
I would reiterate, just because one is born with certain tendencies does not make it an excuse to accept them. To do so would be paramount to denying the free will’s control (or at least influence) over biological instincts.
From a humanist point of view, I see NOTHING WRONG with homosexuality. I would support homosexual civil unions. Seriously.
However, if one judges by the Bible (even when un-modified, un-commentaried, and in the original Hebrew and Greek), then it is clear that the overwhelming conclusion is that the Judeo-Christian God considers homosexuality a sin. It’s not something that He approves of.
This is further bolstered by the fact that the perceptions of Jews and Christians throughout all of history has been that homosexuality is contrary to God’s purpose… From the time of Moses, to the Jewish laws as understood by the scribes, to the Apostles, to the early church, to the Torah, to Reformation, to today. It is by no means merely a modern backlash against the free love movement.
Jesus Himself set the example of acceptance when He reached out to women, other races, the young, the sick… But why didn’t He reach out to the homosexuals or the sexually wanton?
Instead, He reaffirmed that Sodom and Gomorrah would be judged in Matthew 10:15.
Not as bad as the cities which rejected the Gospel… But what does that say about people who BOTH practice homosexuality AND reject the precepts stated in God’s Word?
I do not hate or even dislike homosexuals. But I cannot sit down quietly when anyone attempts to modify the Word of God to suit their own beliefs, be it for pro-gay, a cult like Ahnsahnghong or atheist mockery.
How long more before paedophilia, bestiality or the abolition of marriage entirely becomes the ‘right’ thing to do?
How long before pornography, sex orgies, drug use and drunkenness become traits of the church? Wild Rompin’ Sex Baptist Assembly? Church of the Crack-head Christ?
You may argue that those things are wrong and should not be compared with the moralness of homosexuality, but that is exactly how mainstream (‘fundamentalist’ as you put it) Christians feel about homosexuality.
I hope I have not sounded harsh, critical or smug. But I won’t sit still and let the precepts of God be subverted while the non-believers of this world laugh mockingly at us.
God loves us so much… He wants us to follow how He suggests we live, for our own better good. And you know what, He might just be right about that.
God bless. And may the truth set us all free. (May it set ME free if I am truly the one who is misguided and sinning.)
SCOTT’S NOTE: While I maintain my personal convictions – based on Scripture – regarding this issue, I apologize for any hurt or offense I may have caused with my remarks.