Comment to Yuki’s Remarks on my Gay Pastor Post


The following is my reply to several remarks made at http://yuki-thejourney.blogspot.com.

The blogger linked to and excerpted some of the things I said in my post Gay Pastor Wants to Start Church in KL.

Non-Blogger members cannot post comments on said blogger’s site, so I reply to the remarks made here. The blogger’s remarks are in bold italics.

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“christian popes had murdered alot of scientists long ago just because they denied what the popes told the society …

I’d like to see the documented basis for this ‘fact’… As opposed to Wikipedia on myths regarding science and Wikipedia on the relationship between religion and science (under ‘Perspectives on the historical relationship between religion and science’).

And non–religious people had lots of their own myths that they stubbornly clinged to, such as spontaneous generation and an infinitely old, unchanging universe (both of which remove the need for a Creator).

You might add evolution to that bag. And those who are skeptical of global warming are being treated in the same spirit as your quotation claims the Popes treated heliocentric supporters. Religion doesn’t have the monopoly on bias, arrogance and bullying.

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I’ve met a few Christians that believe that homosexuality is worse than murder. They base this belief on what I said above. One time act vs. a continuous lifestyle choice. Ken R – exgaywatch.

I believe you are familiar with the Christian doctrines on forgiveness of sins.

Let’s say I murdered many people in cold blood. After years of killing, I regret what I did and repent. I turn to Christ for forgiveness and change my lifestyle, surrendering myself to the police if I haven’t already been caught. Am I thus saved and justified by God? Doctrine says YES.

But let’s say I did all the above murdering, and did not repent. If I continue on in my lifestyle, am I saved? Doctrine says NO.

What if I accept Christ as my saviour, and continue my murdering? Doctrine says NO.

Now, not to equate murder to homosexuality (murder is far worse in my book), but it’s the issue of repentance.

If Hitler and Stalin, the kings of mass murder themselves, were to accept Christ and change their life, they would be saved!

But if the most petty of accounting fraudsters, stealing pennies a day, claimed to accept Christ but refused to admit his wrong and change… He’d still be condemned.

It is worse FOR the homosexual who doesn’t repent and change than FOR the one-time murdered who begs God’s forgiveness… Like the parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14.

(Assuming of course that homosexuality IS a willful sin before God’s eyes. And I’m placing homosexual rationalizers as the Pharisee here, not myself.)

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We give every reason to why the old laws of Leviticus could not be applied at our times now, but totally singling out homosexuality. Why?

Because the laws of Leviticus are applied to Jews, and we are not Jews.

However, the New Testament is strongly opposed to homosexual behaviour. If one argues that it is only as bad as gossiping and slandering, well then, I respond that those ‘minor’ sins are actually very bad indeed! I could debate the meaning and application of said NT passages if you wish.

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It is nearly an end game for ex-gay ministries in throughout the world. At the turn of the century, homosexuality is now confirmed as inborn, and not socially constructed.

I tend to be skeptical of any claim that a behaviour is 100% nature or 100% nurture. In the case of sexual orientation, there are many confirmed cases of exposure to environment influencing the sexual ‘orientation’.

Pastor Edmund Smith (although you think not-highly of him) is one example, as are the stories of people he ministered to. And yes, amazingly, many of them WERE ‘cured’. But I would rather say, repented and were renewed by the Holy Spirit.

Is alcoholism or propensity for violence genetically determined? Very likely in part, but does that give one a license to be drunken or smash furniture? Does being ‘born that way’ make it any more acceptable before God? Not likely.

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The definition of the ‘homosexual lifestyle’ is still one of the most bothersome questions Christians can ever answer. The word ‘lifestyle’ itself is as vague as homosexual ‘behaviour’. What constitutes the ‘sinful lifestyle’? Going to a mall? How is it any different than a heterosexual lifestyle?

The difference is clear and simple: One has sexual and romantic thoughts about the same gender. Going to the mall, eating breakfast, worshipping in church… Everything is the same, but the mentality and heart are what makes the difference.

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Example, images of provocative artistes such as Shakira and Beyonce are on display almost every single day. Their adulteress like ‘behaviour’ on MTV, barely clothed and hip shaking shows are watched by millions all across the world. So how can we support that and say that it is okay, but the expression of two men in love considered a higher level of sin?

We cannot support or condone it. I get really riled up by the sin pumped into our homes and cars every day by disgusting MTV, especially R & B! I strongly condemn it! This is the true religion of the Blue States of the USA – the flesh and the self!

I advise anyone I know not to let themselves be polluted with sex-worshipping corruption like this. Turn off that radio and switch off that TV!

R&B: A Sign of the End Times

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HIV/AIDS does not discriminate.

Agreed. If people would just STOP SLEEPING AROUND, the scourge of HIV would not even be a minor problem.

Stop Free Love! Casual Sex Is Killing Humanity!

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Being homosexual is not defying God’s law. Sadly, as it is well known ever since 1949, bias crept into the Bible through translators.

Then let’s use the 1611 A.D. Old King James version:

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals (catamites), nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” – 1st Corinthians 6:9-10

Or, how about this:

“Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” – Romans 1:24-27

Not good enough for you? We’ll use Romans 1:24-27 in the original Greek the NT was written in:

Rom1_24_27Greek

Word for word translation:

Rom1_24_27GreekEng

Proof enough for you? Rather than the mainstream churches changing the clear meaning or commentators adding subtext, it takes a lot of twisting and wrangling to avoid the implications of these passages. And New Testament nonetheless, so any Leviticus-type objections are null.

Reference: Greek NT – Byz./Maj. and Greek/English Interlinear (TR) at http://www.olivetree.com/bible/

Bible in Greek and pop-up dictionary for every word at http://www.zhubert.com

ZhubertRomans1b

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Next, we can attend services focusing on honesty by a convicted white-collar criminal. [Scott’s words]

It is amazing how a person could not separate criminal activity, with love between two men.It is amazing how a person could not separate criminal activity, with love between two men.

That and Michael Jackson were just popular examples to illustrate the point. Try these instead, they have the same meaning:

Next, we can attend services focusing on holiness in thought led by a pornographic website host. And then, learn about how to be chaste from 17-year old Ms. Shelley, who is pregnant with her fifth child of unknown parentage. Finally, let’s learn how to read God’s word as fable from an atheist professor of Higher Criticism and Biblical Deconstructivism.

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The VAST majority of mainstream REAL church are known as Christian liberals.

I would argue that the VAST majority of FAKE AND SUPERMARKET CONSUMER churches are liberal.

Seriously, why even adopt Christianity if you don’t believe in God’s judgement? If He isn’t going to judge us, then we don’t need Christ’s forgiveness. Go and vote Democrat already.

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It is not the orientation. It is the person. God judges the matters of the heart, remember?

Is the heart really, truly seeking to please Him by following His precepts? Or is it reasoning and rationalizing to itself in order to justify its earthly desires?

Besides, it is a misconception that the heart is what counts. If I have a good heart and do good deeds but never receive Christ, am I then saved?

If my heart SINCERELY tells me that killing non-believers is a holy and commendable thing that the victims deeply appreciate, does God smile upon my pure motives? Or am I a nutcase?

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I do not think any person would agree to that. The third world mentality of some young men is really getting stale. So I can be born left handed and I cannot be a Christian? I am born with a third hand, so I am left out of His kingdom?

If the first world mentality is “Hey, let’s decide for ourselves what should be moral right and wrong and interpret the Scripturs to suit our agenda!”… Then I am exceedingly proud to be third world.

You can be born with huge claws for hands and an insatiable bloodlust, but if you seek God and obey His laws, you’ll be fine by Him.

My point is simply: God condemns homosexuality. How can one claim to be a follower, a servant, as subject of God and disobey Him blatantly to His face? Worse, disobey and say that God thinks it’s a great thing you do?

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When two or three homosexuals or heterosexuals gather in the name of the Lord, it is therefore called a church. Something must be wrong when Christians still think the church is a building. Probably to much anguish caused by attending talks by a confused misinformative ministry.

You missed the point entirely.

What I am saying is, if you don’t follow the Christian rules, puh-leeze don’t hijack the Christian terms. It’s bad enough that half the cults out there say that they have the ‘real’ teachings of the ‘real’ Second Coming of Christ or whatever.

A church is Christ-obeying people, gathering wherever it may be. So please, don’t call a group of Christ-disobeying-and-self-rationalizing people a church. Make a new religion or something. The Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Reverend Moon will give you pointers.

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God chooses pastors for the church. Some people just loves playing God.

What’s to stop fakes from CLAIMING that God chose them for their church? I can do that too, just watch:

“GOD CHOSE ME TO BE THE NEXT POPE!!! IT IS HIS WILL THAT I SUPPORT MANDATORY STERILIZATION OF ALL HUMANS!!!”

“…Hey, why isn’t anyone listening to my divine revelation? God chose me what!”

I agree on the playing God bit, but I would say it is those who decide what SHOULD be right and wrong and twist the Word of God to fit their perception. But of course, I would be accused of that by those people, right? Ah, the vagaries of subjectivity…

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Christians are overrated. I will settle with believer in Christ. I am utterly astonished at how some fundamentalist people still fail to remember Christian fundamentals such as John 3:16.

Too many people spout on about God’s love, and too few remember God’s holiness, righteousness and judgement in countless passages, such as Ecclesiastes 12:14 – “For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.”

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The Bible according to some fellow who is hogwashed by another fellow who was hogwashed… Or we could just read the Bible as just the Bible, without questions, without interpretations and without prejudice; not picking up lines and make them justifications to stampede on a minority group just because we feel uncomfortable with them. Now, THAT would grief the Holy Spirit.

What grieves the Holy Spirit is men like Paul warned of in 2nd Timothy 4:3 – “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”

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Matthew 7: 1-2
“1Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

Ah, the favourite defensive verse of the accused. I always respond that I am ready to stand in the courtroom of God, convinced and convicted of the righteousness of my beliefs. Are you?

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In conclusion…

I would reiterate, just because one is born with certain tendencies does not make it an excuse to accept them. To do so would be paramount to denying the free will’s control (or at least influence) over biological instincts.

From a humanist point of view, I see NOTHING WRONG with homosexuality. I would support homosexual civil unions. Seriously.

However, if one judges by the Bible (even when un-modified, un-commentaried, and in the original Hebrew and Greek), then it is clear that the overwhelming conclusion is that the Judeo-Christian God considers homosexuality a sin. It’s not something that He approves of.

This is further bolstered by the fact that the perceptions of Jews and Christians throughout all of history has been that homosexuality is contrary to God’s purpose… From the time of Moses, to the Jewish laws as understood by the scribes, to the Apostles, to the early church, to the Torah, to Reformation, to today. It is by no means merely a modern backlash against the free love movement.

Jesus Himself set the example of acceptance when He reached out to women, other races, the young, the sick… But why didn’t He reach out to the homosexuals or the sexually wanton?

Instead, He reaffirmed that Sodom and Gomorrah would be judged in Matthew 10:15.

Not as bad as the cities which rejected the Gospel… But what does that say about people who BOTH practice homosexuality AND reject the precepts stated in God’s Word?

I do not hate or even dislike homosexuals. But I cannot sit down quietly when anyone attempts to modify the Word of God to suit their own beliefs, be it for pro-gay, a cult like Ahnsahnghong or atheist mockery.

How long more before paedophilia, bestiality or the abolition of marriage entirely becomes the ‘right’ thing to do?

How long before pornography, sex orgies, drug use and drunkenness become traits of the church? Wild Rompin’ Sex Baptist Assembly? Church of the Crack-head Christ?

You may argue that those things are wrong and should not be compared with the moralness of homosexuality, but that is exactly how mainstream (‘fundamentalist’ as you put it) Christians feel about homosexuality.

I hope I have not sounded harsh, critical or smug. But I won’t sit still and let the precepts of God be subverted while the non-believers of this world laugh mockingly at us.

God loves us so much… He wants us to follow how He suggests we live, for our own better good. And you know what, He might just be right about that.

God bless. And may the truth set us all free. (May it set ME free if I am truly the one who is misguided and sinning.)

UPDATE: Yuki responds to this post at this link, and I reply to that response here.

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SCOTT’S NOTE: While I maintain my personal convictions – based on Scripture – regarding this issue, I apologize for any hurt or offense I may have caused with my remarks.


7 Responses to “Comment to Yuki’s Remarks on my Gay Pastor Post”

  1. Matt Says:

    http://www.ahnsahnghong.info/

    The COG is a cult. Ahnsahnghong is all a scam.

  2. Scott Thong Says:

    Or for a suuuuuuuupaaaaa many commented discussion, see
    http://jamietalkstogod.wordpress.com/2007/04/06/church-of-god-world-mission-society/

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  4. Ps Amanda Smith Says:

    Attention Church in Malaysia…
    There is an individual by the name of Vivian @ Yuki @ Anonymous @ etc who is going international via internet to destroy the name and ministry Ps Edmund & RLM (www.r-l-m.com). This individual is a transgender (a male who believes that he is meant to be a female) who was once helped by Ps Edmund but became vicious because Ps Edmund refused to condone to his pro-gay and pro-transgender believes. Vivian stalks the internet to see where Ps Edmund / RLM are mentioned. And like below – he will condemned Ps Edmund / RLM. Below is just one of the hundreds of schemes of Vivian. He is dangerous & definitely an instrument of the devil. What can you do?
    1. Pray for him
    2. Do not entertain him (many Christians are interacting with him – online)
    3. Pass this email to everyone you know.
    Continuation of girls camp 2007 — Homosexuality and the Ex-gay Lifestyle
    I wanted to separate the posts because I think my previous post is too long. So anyway…

    I also joined the workshop “The Heart of Worship” by Pastor Ng Wah Lok and “What do you do when no one is watching” by Pastor Edmund Smith. The heart of worship workshop was really interesting. Pastor Ng Wah Lok taught about how to plan songs for worship. Pastor Edmund Smith’s topic was a little bit shocking at 1st. It was Homosexuality and the Ex-Gay Lifestyle. I really didn’t expect it. And actually I didn’t choose it. I chose The heart of worship. But Pastor Ng can only come on the 1st day, and Pastor Edmund can only come on the 2nd and 3rd day, so both workshops were joined. And I’ve learnt a lot from Pastor Edmund Smith about gays and he has really changed my perspective of gays.

    If you’ve read my post entitled “What would YOU do?”, I had this thinking that gays are born like that. I had this perspective that gays cannot be changed. But through the workshop, I’ve learnt that there are people who were gay and now they’re not. For example, Pastor Edmund Smith himself was gay. He had 3 elder brothers. So when his mother was pregnant with him, his parents expected him to be a girl. But when he was born a boy, his parents rejected him, especially his father. He told us that his mother rejected him at 1st but then later accepted him. But for the 1st 5 years of his life, his mother treated him like a girl and later treated him like a boy. So he was very confused about his gender. He told us he hated being a guy. He wanted so badly to be a girl. And he lead a gay lifestyle for almost 11 years. He later stopped being gay because he said he suffered and was depressed during the 11 years he was leading the gay lifestyle. But of course he said it was not easy to change from being gay to straight. But he said soon after he left the gay lifestyle, he found Jesus. And his life changed from there. And oh yea, he’s married by the way. Blessed with 2 kids. =)

    He taught us a lot of terms and also shared with us the issues that could lead to a person being gay. First he taught us about 2 stances : the pro-gay and ex-gay stance.
    • Ex-gay stance = promotes ex-gay lifestyle and discourages gay lifestyle
    • Pro-gay stance = promotes and encourages gay lifestyle
    Then he taught us some terms :
    1. gay = (for male and female) others drawn to a person of the same sex in a way of romance and sex
    2. lesbian = specifically for female homosexuals
    3. Gay friendly = to be friendly to gays, but hold the ex-gay stance. Aka do not hurt or reject gays, but be friendly to them and at the same time do not encourage their gay lifestyle/do not encourage them being gay.
    4. anti gay/homophobic = afraid of gays/hate gays. opposite of gay friendly
    5. hermaphrodite = one who is born with both genitals.(not necessarily gay)(due to genetics)
    6. Transgender= transfer of gender. one who has a Gender Identity Disorder. a female who wants to be a male and vice versa.
    7. Transsexual = transgender who go for sex change operation
    8. Transvestite = transfer of vest (clothes). a male who dresses like a female (or vice versa) mostly for fun/ performance.
    9. Androgynous = one who appears in the middle. Eg, a person looks a little like a man but at a certain angle looks like a woman.(not due to genetics)
    10. homophyllic = one who loves others of the same sex but has nothing to do with sex or romance.
    11. Deep Platonic Relationship = relationship whereby a person loves another of the same sex deeply without involving sex or romance.
    12. pedophile = adult who is drawn to children in a way of sex/romance.
    13. metro sexual = a man who is in touch with his feminine side.(eg man who cook, do facial, do sewing, cry, etc) it is usually a term for men and it is perfectly normal.
    14. fetrosexual = same as metro sexual but this term is used for girls (eg, girls who are strong, who love to play football/rugby etc etc
    15. butch = a girl who wants to be a guy. they will bind their breasts, cut their hair short, act like a guy etc
    The issues that could most probably lead to homosexuality :
    • SELF ISSUE
    This issue is the rejection in the area of gender or appearance. Eg, a person who hates his/her own gender. In the area of appearance means that a person who hates the way he/she looks like. Eg, a person who feels that he/she is ugly or fat etc. Pastor Edmund was saying that don’t ever hate yourself. Thank God for making you a girl/guy. Never say that you wish were the opposite gender. It really woke me up because there were times where I hated being a girl (it was not serious/severe). But yea, his words made me thank God everyday that I am a girl. I am who He made me to be.

    And also Pastor Edmund said, don’t complain you’re ugly, but rather remember that you are beautiful in God’s eyes, and that’s all that matters. God made all of us beautiful, so don’t ever say or complain that you’re ugly. He also said don’t complain about being fat. But instead, exercise, eat well and rest well. (A big bang to my head for that. LOL)
    • VACUUM ISSUE
    This issue is basically about the absence of love of a parent/relative of the same gender. For example, Pastor Edmund did not have love from his father. His father was there physically but he didn’t love Pastor Edmund. So Pastor Edmund was looking and wanting love from a person of the same gender.

    Pastor Edmund said that many people always look for Mr/ Miss Right. And he was stressing that there is no such thing as Mr/ Miss Right, because no one is perfect. And he also said that no one completes us. He said for example, his wife does not complete him, but compliments him.

    During one of the night sessions (not connected to this workshop), Pastor Eric Lau came to speak and he quote a saying from Pascal : “In the hearts of every men and women there is a God shaped vacuum that can only be filled by God the creator through Jesus Christ”. This is so true.
    • BARRIER ISSUE
    This issue is where a person is unable to be romantically involved with another of the opposite sex because the person has been abused verbally or sexually. For example, a girl may have been molested or raped. She will look at men as monsters and she won’t be comfortable being romantically involved with a man. If this issue is not resolved (through counselling), she will stick to girls and this can lead to lesbianism.

    *phew* So yea, he was telling us that gays are not born. God doesn’t make gays. A person becomes gay mostly because he/she has not resolve either one, two, or all of these 3 issues. A person can also become gay because of influence from the world. He also taught about Deep Platonic Relationship. It is normal and possible, to love a person of the same sex deeply without involving romance/sexuality. So yea, don’t get confused between admiration/ deep platonic relationship and love for the same sex in terms of romance.

    He also taught us to be gay friendly but to stay strong to the ex-gay stance. We can be friendly to gays but it doesn’t mean that we encourage that person being a gay/ leading a gay lifestyle. He also taught us not to reject gays or to mock gays.

    Anyway, to learn more about Pastor Edmund’s work (it’s called the Real Love Ministry) , check out his website http://www.r-l-m.com
    You can also check out this website http://www.exodus.to

    I really found this workshop and the things Pastor Edmund taught very useful. I think now that gays and their lifestyle are beginning to be such a norm, these notes are very useful as awareness to the public. And also hope that a gay can be changed. Though it is not easy and it also depends on whether that person is willing or not. But yea, it is an interesting topic, and an important one too.

    Hope you’ll find this post useful. Do comment and give your opinions.
    Posted by JoJo at 15:04

    5 comments:
    Anonymous said…
    Was Edmund Smith gay?
    No, he was a heterosexual who has relationships with men for experimentation.

    What is homosexuality?
    Just Same Sex Attracted Individuals.

    What is the gay ‘lifestyLe’?
    Ask any real gay men, and they would tell you eat, go to the gym, study, sleep, watch movies, swim…

    Why the term progay then?
    It is used for people who wants to have rights to get married, employment, non-discrimination.

    Is Edmund lying?
    Yes, just google on definitions like transsexual and transgender, and you would find different meanings to it.

    Somethings wikipedia has to say:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

    What does 477000 medical and health professionals say about homosexuality and chanches for change?

    Homosexuality is normal, and change causes harm, that could be emotional or phychological.

    http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/facts.pdf

    [In 1998, December 12, the American Psychiatric Association meeting.

    “The potential risks of ‘reparative therapy’ are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient.”
    “Many patients who have undergone ‘reparative therapy’ relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction.”

    “The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed.”

    “Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon a prior assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation. The American Psychiatric Association recognizes that in the course of ongoing psychiatric treatment, there may be appropriate clinical indications for attempting to change sexual behaviors.”]

    But Edmund changed?

    Changes are either 1. Bisexual people reconciling to just be straight. 2. Heterosexuals who feel they do not really want to have sex with men. 3. Celibacy.

    Until now, there has been many ‘supposed’ changes, but non are peer previewed, and scientifically prove, that a shift from orientation from homo to hetero happened. It is as impossible as a shift from hetero to homo.

    The Bible is used to condemn many others before; slaves, women, african americans, but the truth is what is written is never understood fully.

    Even Christ himself said nothing in red about homosexuality.

    The writings of the apostle Paul that has verses that is against homosexuality, also has verses that is against women…

    example:

    1 corinthians 34-35

    34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

    1 timothy 2 : 11 – 15

    11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

    You are too young to know this, but understand this fact, the bible had been used for centuries to go against minorities. it is what drives the church, fear.

    Edmund Smith needs to go against gays to sell his CD’s, one after another, also his preachings, and also to be popular and ge. Very few of ht support from th church. His ‘sermons’ are sometimes not free. It is his career and we should respect it.

    But I am talking as a Christian, Jesus would not murk a prostitute, neither use the Bible to condemn people EXCEPT self righteous priests. What is the Christian thing to do here? Think, question.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21

    21Test everything. Hold on to the good.

    Lastly, is it fair to listen to only one person who claims to be gay to represent every gay in the world? Everyone is different. Everyone is an individual. God sees the minds and hearts of people. Therefore, do not talk about people behind them and assume; but when there is a chance to meet gays, talk to them. You would be surprised how different a gay person is than the one perpetuated by Edmund Smith.

    PS – I used to hate gays too, and find a lot of reasons to do so. I was wrong. They are just ordinary human beings like you and I. In fact, I am starting to find it is heterosexuals that are deceitful, fighting to control homosexuals, while not looking into the speck of their own eyes. I was one of them. And I know that I am wrong by misusing His Name to condemn people who have a place in His Kingdom. Hope you learn from this too.
    17 December 2007 18:18
    JoJo said…
    Dear anonymous,

    Thank you so much for giving your point of view. I do agree with some things you have said.

    However I do have to point out that Edmund Smith is not lying(that is a very strong word to say).

    I’ve checked wikipedia and it says that:
    “One common definition is that a transsexual is a person who believes that his or her body does not reflect his or her true ‘inner’ identification of physical sex or gender.
    Another common definition is that a transsexual is a person who has had or plans to have medical or surgical treatments that alter his or her body to better reflect what the individual believes is his or her true gender.”

    So Edmund Smith is not lying. He may not be totally right, but lying is definately not what he was doing.

    And I do agree with this “Homosexuality is normal, and change causes harm, that could be emotional or phychological.” But as you yourself said, “Lastly, is it fair to listen to only one person who claims to be gay to represent every gay in the world? Everyone is different. Everyone is an individual.”

    I am not saying that Pastor Edmund Smith represents every gay in the world. Everyone is different. And the most important thing about changing a person, whether gay or not, is willingness. You can talk to a gay, tell him/her that change is better, so on so forth, but at the end of the day, it depends whether the person is willing to change him/herself.

    Maybe you’re right, that change in homosexuality causes harm, but not all gays feel that way. It is not easy leading a gay life (although many have already been opened-minded about them), and some may actually feel much better and more free coming out of the gay life. I don’t think you should judge Pastor Edmund and say that he has not changed. How do you know his heart? For all you know, maybe he really felt better/more free after being not gay. Then again, I might be wrong. But only God knows his heart and his true feelings. And we don’t have the right to judge him.

    Lastly, I agree that gays are normal human beings like you and me. I do not see gays as monsters or weirdos or anything like that. I don’t mind at all talking with a gay. That’s why Pastor Edmund taught us about being gay-friendly. To be friendly towards gays, not to mock them or reject them. I would also like to encourage other Christians to love them…like Jesus would.

    Thanks again anonymous for your comments. I really have learnt alot from it. And though I agree with what you said, that I might be too young to understand/know this, I am indeed very eager to learn new things everyday. It is the awesomeness of life. 🙂

    Ps: to all, I really hope you will post your comments too. Do share your opinions though it might be against my post. I am eager to learn and to hear your voices. Thank you.
    19 December 2007 19:24
    Yuki said…
    Hi, my name is Yuki. I have known Edmund Smith for quite some time and have been observing the comments coming in here.

    I would like to highlight something here, especially when I am a pre-op transsexual female.

    Transgender= transfer of gender. one who has a Gender Identity Disorder. a female who wants to be a male and vice versa.

    (Transgender is just an umbrella term that emcompasses every human being that does not fit into a specific gender category. It is NOT G.I.D.)

    Transsexual = transgender who go for sex change operation

    (I am diagnosed as a person with Gender Identity Disorder, or known as Harry Benjamin Syndrome. It is caused by the chromosomnal being, the psychological being, the hormonal being or the biological being being variant from the birth sex. The only cure for that constitutes HRT or hormone reparative therapy then to SRS surgery. That puts me as a transsexual)

    (Unlike mentioned by Edmund, a transsexual may not go to surgery, example the Muslim transsexuals in Malaysia who cannot because of their religion. The surgery is just part of the journey, the transition is a lifetime. Therefore, Edmund Smith is incorrect to drag the term transgender and mashes it with transsexual)

    Transvestite = transfer of vest (clothes). a male who dresses like a female (or vice versa) mostly for fun/ performance.

    (A male who dresses as a male or vice versa is called drags and drabs. It has nothing to do with transsexuals, because they are sure with their sexuality.)

    I am sure Edmund is not lying, but there are political things you cannot see in his ‘motion’, even for ex-gays.

    I give you just one simple question, let’s just say you have a left hand. But suddenly someone comes and says it is caused by your parents who are distant or psysical brokeness. How do you feel? Now put that to gays, you have gays who come from normal families and childhoods, only to be accused of being abused or distant from their parents? Is Edmund being fair?

    Lastly, on your comment:

    “You can talk to a gay, tell him/her that change is better, so on so forth, but at the end of the day, it depends whether the person is willing to change him/herself.”

    That is the problem. How would you feel if someone comes to you and ask you to be a homosexual? And are you fair in stating here that the person ‘should’ change? No one should be compelled to be who they are not, or be assumed they are to change to something they are not.

    If I were to have listened to Edmund and try to be a boy… I would have lost a lot of years in my life in pursuing a transition, and missed a huge part of my years being who I am.

    But of course I cannot speak for gays for I am not, but you can check here – http://www.beyondexgay.com. These are ex gay survivors, who have wasted precious years and finances, only to realise they have wasted years (some to decades) of their life trying to be who they are not. And who have they to thank for? People who come and tried to change them like Edmund.

    And dear, Edmund IS lying. There is no change. Only supression, and a life of denial. But to Edmund, that is his right, to deny himself to take up his cross to follow HIM. But in another different corner, does denying yourself to take up the cross include ‘changing’ to become a homosexual (lesbian) for you? Do you understand now?

    Are you doing justice then to your homosexual friends? The best thing to do for your homosexual friends treat them as human beings without compelling them to do something they will regret for the rest of your life.

    Imagine, a girl, one day, someone may come and slap her in the face and said ‘you ruined my life You blurred my mind saying that I would be better of to change. Well, I was willing to. Now I wasted 20 years of my life. And what do I get? NOTHING! If is all because of you and those false promises by EDMUND SMITH!…

    Do you want to be that girl?

    I am sure Edmund can help very few people who were sexually confused like himself, but for the majority, he does nothing but throw wrong representations of what homosexuality really is.

    One last question. As you know I am a transsexual. You can say I am an ex-boy. Do you trust me if I tell you I can teach everyone about being a boy?

    Likewise, can you say ex-gays can tell you about being a gay? Ex-gays are never gays, or they are lying to themselves.

    I agree with the ‘annonymus’. You need to question, and think. The world is never simple, but I am sure everyone will get their share of wisdom someday. Even you me, and Edmund Smith.
    19 December 2007 22:21
    JoJo said…
    Dear Yuki,

    Thank you so much for your comments and I have to say, some things you have said have got me thinking.

    “Imagine, a girl, one day, someone may come and slap her in the face and said ‘you ruined my life You blurred my mind saying that I would be better of to change. Well, I was willing to. Now I wasted 20 years of my life. And what do I get? NOTHING! If is all because of you and those false promises by EDMUND SMITH!…

    Do you want to be that girl?”

    No, I would not want to be that girl. And I most probably would not. Because honestly, I don’t think I have enough knowledge or experience or maybe even courage to go up to any gay and ask them to change. This post I put up in my blog is just to share with people something I have learnt in camp. Not to change anyone. And of course I would like to have some feedback from others and to learn more, to think more, to question more.

    “And dear, Edmund IS lying. There is no change. Only supression, and a life of denial. But to Edmund, that is his right, to deny himself to take up his cross to follow HIM. But in another different corner, does denying yourself to take up the cross include ‘changing’ to become a homosexual (lesbian) for you? Do you understand now?”

    I still do have this believe that there IS change. That change is possible. However, I do agree with you that change may not be beneficial to others.
    But like I said, neither me nor you nor anyone else knows Pastor Edmund’s true heart. Only God and himself. Whether he is living a life of denial, we don’t know, and we definately cannot judge him.

    I have visited your blog and I have to say, I am very encouraged by you. About how strong your relationship with God is. And I do very much agree with you. That gays are normal human beings, and I will take your advice “The best thing to do for your homosexual friends treat them as human beings without compelling them to do something they will regret for the rest of your life.”

    Tell you the truth, I don’t have any homosexual friends. Or for all you know maybe I do but I don’t realise. But one thing is for sure, I will definately follow your advice in treating them as normal human beings. And I will love them…as Jesus would.

    Thank you once again, Yuki for sharing your comments, your opinions, and your knowledge. I have learnt alot. From both you and anonymous. And I will question and think about this topic. And I will most definately learn from views, opinions, and knowledge from other people. Thank you once again and God bless 🙂
    20 December 2007 12:41
    Yuki said…
    You are wellcome. Perhaps you are right too, to say it is only for God to judge him. Only God can see the mind and the heart of everyone.

    And perhaps I am speaking in despair in seeing many homosexuals that goes to someone like Edmund and his myths, and instead of changing their homosexuality, they even lost their belief in God.

    I fortunately leart a lot about Edmund, from his family and relatives; but I am not going to say anything except it is his life and God has shown many of us his fruits. He has to face Him one day.

    My concern as I say, is a notion that homosexuals CAN and SHOULD change. Change to what by the way? It is not a choice. The Bible’s writers has no understanding of homosexuality, or women and slaves for that matter. What more human beings.

    We are all individuals, living in the age of the fall of sin. Heterosexuals sin too, and heterosexual acts are all over MTV, add with girls in skimpy bikinis all over the place with men. So what right has heterosexuals got to judge homosexuals?

    We are all sinners, we should stop claiming to represent God and define people as who we want them to be. Let God define themselves. Our Saviour bless you, He will show you everything in His time and give you wisdom. Take care.

    “I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here [head] and here [heart], and by what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man (person), or not. – Quote from Kingdom Of Heaven.
    21 December 2007 15:13

  5. Ps Amanda Smith Says:

    Attention Church in Malaysia…
    There is an individual by the name of Vivian @ Yuki @ Anonymous @ etc who is going international via internet to destroy the name and ministry Ps Edmund & RLM (www.r-l-m.com). This individual is a transgender (a male who believes that he is meant to be a female) who was once helped by Ps Edmund but became vicious because Ps Edmund refused to condone to his pro-gay and pro-transgender believes. Vivian stalks the internet to see where Ps Edmund / RLM are mentioned. And like below – he will condemned Ps Edmund / RLM. Below is just one of the hundreds of schemes of Vivian. He is dangerous & definitely an instrument of the devil. What can you do?
    1. Pray for him
    2. Do not entertain him (many Christians are interacting with him – online)
    3. Pass this email to everyone you know.
    Real Love brings Real Life,
    Ps Amanda Smith (wife of Ps Edmund Smith)
    Continuation of girls camp 2007 — Homosexuality and the Ex-gay Lifestyle
    I wanted to separate the posts because I think my previous post is too long. So anyway…

    I also joined the workshop “The Heart of Worship” by Pastor Ng Wah Lok and “What do you do when no one is watching” by Pastor Edmund Smith. The heart of worship workshop was really interesting. Pastor Ng Wah Lok taught about how to plan songs for worship. Pastor Edmund Smith’s topic was a little bit shocking at 1st. It was Homosexuality and the Ex-Gay Lifestyle. I really didn’t expect it. And actually I didn’t choose it. I chose The heart of worship. But Pastor Ng can only come on the 1st day, and Pastor Edmund can only come on the 2nd and 3rd day, so both workshops were joined. And I’ve learnt a lot from Pastor Edmund Smith about gays and he has really changed my perspective of gays.

    If you’ve read my post entitled “What would YOU do?”, I had this thinking that gays are born like that. I had this perspective that gays cannot be changed. But through the workshop, I’ve learnt that there are people who were gay and now they’re not. For example, Pastor Edmund Smith himself was gay. He had 3 elder brothers. So when his mother was pregnant with him, his parents expected him to be a girl. But when he was born a boy, his parents rejected him, especially his father. He told us that his mother rejected him at 1st but then later accepted him. But for the 1st 5 years of his life, his mother treated him like a girl and later treated him like a boy. So he was very confused about his gender. He told us he hated being a guy. He wanted so badly to be a girl. And he lead a gay lifestyle for almost 11 years. He later stopped being gay because he said he suffered and was depressed during the 11 years he was leading the gay lifestyle. But of course he said it was not easy to change from being gay to straight. But he said soon after he left the gay lifestyle, he found Jesus. And his life changed from there. And oh yea, he’s married by the way. Blessed with 2 kids. =)

    He taught us a lot of terms and also shared with us the issues that could lead to a person being gay. First he taught us about 2 stances : the pro-gay and ex-gay stance.
    • Ex-gay stance = promotes ex-gay lifestyle and discourages gay lifestyle
    • Pro-gay stance = promotes and encourages gay lifestyle
    Then he taught us some terms :
    1. gay = (for male and female) others drawn to a person of the same sex in a way of romance and sex
    2. lesbian = specifically for female homosexuals
    3. Gay friendly = to be friendly to gays, but hold the ex-gay stance. Aka do not hurt or reject gays, but be friendly to them and at the same time do not encourage their gay lifestyle/do not encourage them being gay.
    4. anti gay/homophobic = afraid of gays/hate gays. opposite of gay friendly
    5. hermaphrodite = one who is born with both genitals.(not necessarily gay)(due to genetics)
    6. Transgender= transfer of gender. one who has a Gender Identity Disorder. a female who wants to be a male and vice versa.
    7. Transsexual = transgender who go for sex change operation
    8. Transvestite = transfer of vest (clothes). a male who dresses like a female (or vice versa) mostly for fun/ performance.
    9. Androgynous = one who appears in the middle. Eg, a person looks a little like a man but at a certain angle looks like a woman.(not due to genetics)
    10. homophyllic = one who loves others of the same sex but has nothing to do with sex or romance.
    11. Deep Platonic Relationship = relationship whereby a person loves another of the same sex deeply without involving sex or romance.
    12. pedophile = adult who is drawn to children in a way of sex/romance.
    13. metro sexual = a man who is in touch with his feminine side.(eg man who cook, do facial, do sewing, cry, etc) it is usually a term for men and it is perfectly normal.
    14. fetrosexual = same as metro sexual but this term is used for girls (eg, girls who are strong, who love to play football/rugby etc etc
    15. butch = a girl who wants to be a guy. they will bind their breasts, cut their hair short, act like a guy etc
    The issues that could most probably lead to homosexuality :
    • SELF ISSUE
    This issue is the rejection in the area of gender or appearance. Eg, a person who hates his/her own gender. In the area of appearance means that a person who hates the way he/she looks like. Eg, a person who feels that he/she is ugly or fat etc. Pastor Edmund was saying that don’t ever hate yourself. Thank God for making you a girl/guy. Never say that you wish were the opposite gender. It really woke me up because there were times where I hated being a girl (it was not serious/severe). But yea, his words made me thank God everyday that I am a girl. I am who He made me to be.

    And also Pastor Edmund said, don’t complain you’re ugly, but rather remember that you are beautiful in God’s eyes, and that’s all that matters. God made all of us beautiful, so don’t ever say or complain that you’re ugly. He also said don’t complain about being fat. But instead, exercise, eat well and rest well. (A big bang to my head for that. LOL)
    • VACUUM ISSUE
    This issue is basically about the absence of love of a parent/relative of the same gender. For example, Pastor Edmund did not have love from his father. His father was there physically but he didn’t love Pastor Edmund. So Pastor Edmund was looking and wanting love from a person of the same gender.

    Pastor Edmund said that many people always look for Mr/ Miss Right. And he was stressing that there is no such thing as Mr/ Miss Right, because no one is perfect. And he also said that no one completes us. He said for example, his wife does not complete him, but compliments him.

    During one of the night sessions (not connected to this workshop), Pastor Eric Lau came to speak and he quote a saying from Pascal : “In the hearts of every men and women there is a God shaped vacuum that can only be filled by God the creator through Jesus Christ”. This is so true.
    • BARRIER ISSUE
    This issue is where a person is unable to be romantically involved with another of the opposite sex because the person has been abused verbally or sexually. For example, a girl may have been molested or raped. She will look at men as monsters and she won’t be comfortable being romantically involved with a man. If this issue is not resolved (through counselling), she will stick to girls and this can lead to lesbianism.

    *phew* So yea, he was telling us that gays are not born. God doesn’t make gays. A person becomes gay mostly because he/she has not resolve either one, two, or all of these 3 issues. A person can also become gay because of influence from the world. He also taught about Deep Platonic Relationship. It is normal and possible, to love a person of the same sex deeply without involving romance/sexuality. So yea, don’t get confused between admiration/ deep platonic relationship and love for the same sex in terms of romance.

    He also taught us to be gay friendly but to stay strong to the ex-gay stance. We can be friendly to gays but it doesn’t mean that we encourage that person being a gay/ leading a gay lifestyle. He also taught us not to reject gays or to mock gays.

    Anyway, to learn more about Pastor Edmund’s work (it’s called the Real Love Ministry) , check out his website http://www.r-l-m.com
    You can also check out this website http://www.exodus.to

    I really found this workshop and the things Pastor Edmund taught very useful. I think now that gays and their lifestyle are beginning to be such a norm, these notes are very useful as awareness to the public. And also hope that a gay can be changed. Though it is not easy and it also depends on whether that person is willing or not. But yea, it is an interesting topic, and an important one too.

    Hope you’ll find this post useful. Do comment and give your opinions.
    Posted by JoJo at 15:04

    5 comments:
    Anonymous said…
    Was Edmund Smith gay?
    No, he was a heterosexual who has relationships with men for experimentation.

    What is homosexuality?
    Just Same Sex Attracted Individuals.

    What is the gay ‘lifestyLe’?
    Ask any real gay men, and they would tell you eat, go to the gym, study, sleep, watch movies, swim…

    Why the term progay then?
    It is used for people who wants to have rights to get married, employment, non-discrimination.

    Is Edmund lying?
    Yes, just google on definitions like transsexual and transgender, and you would find different meanings to it.

    Somethings wikipedia has to say:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

    What does 477000 medical and health professionals say about homosexuality and chanches for change?

    Homosexuality is normal, and change causes harm, that could be emotional or phychological.

    http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/facts.pdf

    [In 1998, December 12, the American Psychiatric Association meeting.

    “The potential risks of ‘reparative therapy’ are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient.”
    “Many patients who have undergone ‘reparative therapy’ relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction.”

    “The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed.”

    “Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon a prior assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation. The American Psychiatric Association recognizes that in the course of ongoing psychiatric treatment, there may be appropriate clinical indications for attempting to change sexual behaviors.”]

    But Edmund changed?

    Changes are either 1. Bisexual people reconciling to just be straight. 2. Heterosexuals who feel they do not really want to have sex with men. 3. Celibacy.

    Until now, there has been many ‘supposed’ changes, but non are peer previewed, and scientifically prove, that a shift from orientation from homo to hetero happened. It is as impossible as a shift from hetero to homo.

    The Bible is used to condemn many others before; slaves, women, african americans, but the truth is what is written is never understood fully.

    Even Christ himself said nothing in red about homosexuality.

    The writings of the apostle Paul that has verses that is against homosexuality, also has verses that is against women…

    example:

    1 corinthians 34-35

    34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

    1 timothy 2 : 11 – 15

    11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

    You are too young to know this, but understand this fact, the bible had been used for centuries to go against minorities. it is what drives the church, fear.

    Edmund Smith needs to go against gays to sell his CD’s, one after another, also his preachings, and also to be popular and ge. Very few of ht support from th church. His ‘sermons’ are sometimes not free. It is his career and we should respect it.

    But I am talking as a Christian, Jesus would not murk a prostitute, neither use the Bible to condemn people EXCEPT self righteous priests. What is the Christian thing to do here? Think, question.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21

    21Test everything. Hold on to the good.

    Lastly, is it fair to listen to only one person who claims to be gay to represent every gay in the world? Everyone is different. Everyone is an individual. God sees the minds and hearts of people. Therefore, do not talk about people behind them and assume; but when there is a chance to meet gays, talk to them. You would be surprised how different a gay person is than the one perpetuated by Edmund Smith.

    PS – I used to hate gays too, and find a lot of reasons to do so. I was wrong. They are just ordinary human beings like you and I. In fact, I am starting to find it is heterosexuals that are deceitful, fighting to control homosexuals, while not looking into the speck of their own eyes. I was one of them. And I know that I am wrong by misusing His Name to condemn people who have a place in His Kingdom. Hope you learn from this too.
    17 December 2007 18:18
    JoJo said…
    Dear anonymous,

    Thank you so much for giving your point of view. I do agree with some things you have said.

    However I do have to point out that Edmund Smith is not lying(that is a very strong word to say).

    I’ve checked wikipedia and it says that:
    “One common definition is that a transsexual is a person who believes that his or her body does not reflect his or her true ‘inner’ identification of physical sex or gender.
    Another common definition is that a transsexual is a person who has had or plans to have medical or surgical treatments that alter his or her body to better reflect what the individual believes is his or her true gender.”

    So Edmund Smith is not lying. He may not be totally right, but lying is definately not what he was doing.

    And I do agree with this “Homosexuality is normal, and change causes harm, that could be emotional or phychological.” But as you yourself said, “Lastly, is it fair to listen to only one person who claims to be gay to represent every gay in the world? Everyone is different. Everyone is an individual.”

    I am not saying that Pastor Edmund Smith represents every gay in the world. Everyone is different. And the most important thing about changing a person, whether gay or not, is willingness. You can talk to a gay, tell him/her that change is better, so on so forth, but at the end of the day, it depends whether the person is willing to change him/herself.

    Maybe you’re right, that change in homosexuality causes harm, but not all gays feel that way. It is not easy leading a gay life (although many have already been opened-minded about them), and some may actually feel much better and more free coming out of the gay life. I don’t think you should judge Pastor Edmund and say that he has not changed. How do you know his heart? For all you know, maybe he really felt better/more free after being not gay. Then again, I might be wrong. But only God knows his heart and his true feelings. And we don’t have the right to judge him.

    Lastly, I agree that gays are normal human beings like you and me. I do not see gays as monsters or weirdos or anything like that. I don’t mind at all talking with a gay. That’s why Pastor Edmund taught us about being gay-friendly. To be friendly towards gays, not to mock them or reject them. I would also like to encourage other Christians to love them…like Jesus would.

    Thanks again anonymous for your comments. I really have learnt alot from it. And though I agree with what you said, that I might be too young to understand/know this, I am indeed very eager to learn new things everyday. It is the awesomeness of life. 🙂

    Ps: to all, I really hope you will post your comments too. Do share your opinions though it might be against my post. I am eager to learn and to hear your voices. Thank you.
    19 December 2007 19:24
    Yuki said…
    Hi, my name is Yuki. I have known Edmund Smith for quite some time and have been observing the comments coming in here.

    I would like to highlight something here, especially when I am a pre-op transsexual female.

    Transgender= transfer of gender. one who has a Gender Identity Disorder. a female who wants to be a male and vice versa.

    (Transgender is just an umbrella term that emcompasses every human being that does not fit into a specific gender category. It is NOT G.I.D.)

    Transsexual = transgender who go for sex change operation

    (I am diagnosed as a person with Gender Identity Disorder, or known as Harry Benjamin Syndrome. It is caused by the chromosomnal being, the psychological being, the hormonal being or the biological being being variant from the birth sex. The only cure for that constitutes HRT or hormone reparative therapy then to SRS surgery. That puts me as a transsexual)

    (Unlike mentioned by Edmund, a transsexual may not go to surgery, example the Muslim transsexuals in Malaysia who cannot because of their religion. The surgery is just part of the journey, the transition is a lifetime. Therefore, Edmund Smith is incorrect to drag the term transgender and mashes it with transsexual)

    Transvestite = transfer of vest (clothes). a male who dresses like a female (or vice versa) mostly for fun/ performance.

    (A male who dresses as a male or vice versa is called drags and drabs. It has nothing to do with transsexuals, because they are sure with their sexuality.)

    I am sure Edmund is not lying, but there are political things you cannot see in his ‘motion’, even for ex-gays.

    I give you just one simple question, let’s just say you have a left hand. But suddenly someone comes and says it is caused by your parents who are distant or psysical brokeness. How do you feel? Now put that to gays, you have gays who come from normal families and childhoods, only to be accused of being abused or distant from their parents? Is Edmund being fair?

    Lastly, on your comment:

    “You can talk to a gay, tell him/her that change is better, so on so forth, but at the end of the day, it depends whether the person is willing to change him/herself.”

    That is the problem. How would you feel if someone comes to you and ask you to be a homosexual? And are you fair in stating here that the person ‘should’ change? No one should be compelled to be who they are not, or be assumed they are to change to something they are not.

    If I were to have listened to Edmund and try to be a boy… I would have lost a lot of years in my life in pursuing a transition, and missed a huge part of my years being who I am.

    But of course I cannot speak for gays for I am not, but you can check here – http://www.beyondexgay.com. These are ex gay survivors, who have wasted precious years and finances, only to realise they have wasted years (some to decades) of their life trying to be who they are not. And who have they to thank for? People who come and tried to change them like Edmund.

    And dear, Edmund IS lying. There is no change. Only supression, and a life of denial. But to Edmund, that is his right, to deny himself to take up his cross to follow HIM. But in another different corner, does denying yourself to take up the cross include ‘changing’ to become a homosexual (lesbian) for you? Do you understand now?

    Are you doing justice then to your homosexual friends? The best thing to do for your homosexual friends treat them as human beings without compelling them to do something they will regret for the rest of your life.

    Imagine, a girl, one day, someone may come and slap her in the face and said ‘you ruined my life You blurred my mind saying that I would be better of to change. Well, I was willing to. Now I wasted 20 years of my life. And what do I get? NOTHING! If is all because of you and those false promises by EDMUND SMITH!…

    Do you want to be that girl?

    I am sure Edmund can help very few people who were sexually confused like himself, but for the majority, he does nothing but throw wrong representations of what homosexuality really is.

    One last question. As you know I am a transsexual. You can say I am an ex-boy. Do you trust me if I tell you I can teach everyone about being a boy?

    Likewise, can you say ex-gays can tell you about being a gay? Ex-gays are never gays, or they are lying to themselves.

    I agree with the ‘annonymus’. You need to question, and think. The world is never simple, but I am sure everyone will get their share of wisdom someday. Even you me, and Edmund Smith.
    19 December 2007 22:21
    JoJo said…
    Dear Yuki,

    Thank you so much for your comments and I have to say, some things you have said have got me thinking.

    “Imagine, a girl, one day, someone may come and slap her in the face and said ‘you ruined my life You blurred my mind saying that I would be better of to change. Well, I was willing to. Now I wasted 20 years of my life. And what do I get? NOTHING! If is all because of you and those false promises by EDMUND SMITH!…

    Do you want to be that girl?”

    No, I would not want to be that girl. And I most probably would not. Because honestly, I don’t think I have enough knowledge or experience or maybe even courage to go up to any gay and ask them to change. This post I put up in my blog is just to share with people something I have learnt in camp. Not to change anyone. And of course I would like to have some feedback from others and to learn more, to think more, to question more.

    “And dear, Edmund IS lying. There is no change. Only supression, and a life of denial. But to Edmund, that is his right, to deny himself to take up his cross to follow HIM. But in another different corner, does denying yourself to take up the cross include ‘changing’ to become a homosexual (lesbian) for you? Do you understand now?”

    I still do have this believe that there IS change. That change is possible. However, I do agree with you that change may not be beneficial to others.
    But like I said, neither me nor you nor anyone else knows Pastor Edmund’s true heart. Only God and himself. Whether he is living a life of denial, we don’t know, and we definately cannot judge him.

    I have visited your blog and I have to say, I am very encouraged by you. About how strong your relationship with God is. And I do very much agree with you. That gays are normal human beings, and I will take your advice “The best thing to do for your homosexual friends treat them as human beings without compelling them to do something they will regret for the rest of your life.”

    Tell you the truth, I don’t have any homosexual friends. Or for all you know maybe I do but I don’t realise. But one thing is for sure, I will definately follow your advice in treating them as normal human beings. And I will love them…as Jesus would.

    Thank you once again, Yuki for sharing your comments, your opinions, and your knowledge. I have learnt alot. From both you and anonymous. And I will question and think about this topic. And I will most definately learn from views, opinions, and knowledge from other people. Thank you once again and God bless 🙂
    20 December 2007 12:41
    Yuki said…
    You are wellcome. Perhaps you are right too, to say it is only for God to judge him. Only God can see the mind and the heart of everyone.

    And perhaps I am speaking in despair in seeing many homosexuals that goes to someone like Edmund and his myths, and instead of changing their homosexuality, they even lost their belief in God.

    I fortunately leart a lot about Edmund, from his family and relatives; but I am not going to say anything except it is his life and God has shown many of us his fruits. He has to face Him one day.

    My concern as I say, is a notion that homosexuals CAN and SHOULD change. Change to what by the way? It is not a choice. The Bible’s writers has no understanding of homosexuality, or women and slaves for that matter. What more human beings.

    We are all individuals, living in the age of the fall of sin. Heterosexuals sin too, and heterosexual acts are all over MTV, add with girls in skimpy bikinis all over the place with men. So what right has heterosexuals got to judge homosexuals?

    We are all sinners, we should stop claiming to represent God and define people as who we want them to be. Let God define themselves. Our Saviour bless you, He will show you everything in His time and give you wisdom. Take care.

    “I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here [head] and here [heart], and by what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man (person), or not. – Quote from Kingdom Of Heaven.
    21 December 2007 15:13

  6. online toy shop Says:

    Love… be loved… live free… be HAPPY!

    Life is too short to be filled with hatred for anyone…
    I am not gay no bisexual but I embrace freedom of choice
    to be whatever or whoever you want to be as long as it hurts no one else.

    So drop your objections…. worry about your own happiness and stop persecuting people simply because of their sexual preference

  7. Scott Thong Says:

    Eh, who’s persecuting?

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