Yuki has made more replies to my posts. For the record, this is the full list of discussion from earliest to latest:
Scott: Gay Pastor Leads Service in KL
Yuki: Finally, something that gets us thinking.
Scott: Comment to Yuki’s Remarks on my Gay Pastor Post
Yuki: Prejudice shines through.
Scott: More Comments to Yuki’s Comments
Yuki: Prejudice based on dogma, how would Christians come of age?
And now this post you’re reading. You readers probably wish we had kept this to the Comments boxes of one post, eh?
Yuki and myself will not stop debating/arguing this point in the near future. And from the tone of Yuki’s last replies, the discussion seems to be getting quite hot under the collar.
Frankly, we have completely different viewpoints that can be summarized thus:
Yuki believes homosexuality is not wrong by the Bible. I believe it is.
Yuki believes Christian fundamentalists have perverted the concept and are brainwashing people with it. I believe that liberal elements have done the very same.
Yuki believes that history and the facts show that Christian Scriptures and doctrine have been altered in the past – the truth has been twisted by the church. I believe that history and the facts show that Christian Scriptures and doctrine have NOT been altered in the past – the truth has been twisted by researcher bias.
Basically, Yuki thinks I am being manipulated, biased and choose what I want to believe as truth. I may think the same about Yuki.
So as they say, we can only agree to disagree and let God sort it out at the end of days.
So rather than reply to each one of the points that make me really feel like replying, I choose to clarify only a few points that regard me personally. (It’s a struggle, very tempting to rebutt some more…)
Here’s my response to Yuki…
The heart is what counts – because in the end, the only thing separating two straight guy buddies going bowling from two gay partners is that the two gay partners have sexual acts together, or are thinking of it, or have the intention.”Scott Thong has finally admitted why he hates homosexuals, it is because of his disgust on ‘two gay partners have sexual acts together, or are thinking of it, or have the intention.’. As we can see again and again, the bigotry exists mostly on men, and less on homosexual women, again , proof of Scott Thong’s own own discrimination. Scott Thong now has problem with not only dogma and blind faith, but also has admitted he do not like two guys expressing their sexual love.I have to make a clarification here – I think equally of both genders’ versions of homo/bi-sexuality. The reason I only mentioned guys is to save typing effort, and quite frankly, because your remarks themselves usually mentioned guys. As per below:[Yuki said:] Separate what is external, and what is internal; being drunken and smashing furniture harms others. What great harm would be done when two men are together in a room watching a movie? (The examples given here thus far is still personified by dogmas.)[Yuki said:] Again I stress again, what constitutes the homosexual ‘lifestyle’? I know a good couple, who go watch movies and hang out in the mall and so forth. Heck, they do not even like pubs as much as heterosexuals do. Anyway, they are two men in love, so what is the ‘lifestyle’?In the midst of crafting my post, I must have gotten the impression that we were using guys as an example, which didn’t mean we were excluding girls. My apologies for not being gender neutral and politically correct more often.———————————Giving in to homosexual tendencies? Everything that Scott comments, ends up slapping him on the face. I would ask him, what about heterosexual tendencies and Scott will still not answer my question and goes on with his speech based on prejudice.
I have not mentioned heterosexual sins because this has been a discussion on homosexuality in the context of Christianity.
Let me just say it out straight then: I condemn ALL forms of sin. I believe that ANY sexual contact outide of a God-ordained marriage is wrong.
Heterosexuals can sin… In fact, they are the majority of sinners by sheer weight of numbers. Murder, rape, blasphemy are not confined to any one gender orientation.
I merely was trying to explain my viewpoint that willing acceptance of homosexual behaviour IN ITSELF is a sin, whereas heterosexuality is God’s original plan. (Something disagreed with by yourself, of course.)
Anyone noticed what he writes here and before, contradicts himself? Scott Thong now has a problem with contradicting himself.
I must be really blur, I don’t realize myself where I contradicted me or made Jesus seem to be contradicting Himself. And I meant gender-bias as in treating women as second-class citizens, btw, not as in sexual orientation.
Scott went on to say that those in Malaysia, men or women who gets a second shot at marriage is committing adultery because God says so. Those who are getting their second marriage be warned. Yes, that is what I believe as Jesus taught quite clearly.
Here is an example of what I said about submiting my own personal opinion to God’s stated will. I persoanlly feel that spouses should be allowed to divorce for reasons such as alcoholism, violence and so on. But the Bible says, even that would be wrong!
So how do I resolve this issue? I submit to the Bible’s words, which I can’t interpret into a form that agrees with my above viewpoint. Perhaps God means us to try and reconcile ALL kinds of problems in a marriage, no matter how serious. Except sexual infidelity, which is joining the flesh with that of another.
But bottom line, I submit my own will to God’s as I understand it. And I reiterate: I do not feel homosexuality is wrong from a humanistic point of view. If two consenting adults are happy, why object? But I believe that the Bible tells us it is not desireable. (And from a natural viewpoint, it seems to be a self-denying reproduction strategy.)
I cannot belief this! He finally understands that it is all prostitution back in the Roman days! Nothing to do with same sex attraction. Some of the old men are called qadesh, by the way. Sometimes the priest himself will partake on the pagan worship. You can study about it in some sites if you check it out in the net. Scott Thong has finally realised, a bit, of what I am trying to say.
I admit that your remarks about the relationship between pagan worship and male prostitutes was informative. It got me researching a bit. It seems to come down to the words used and the interpretation of their meaning, and is under debate by more educated parties.
However, the fact that male-male sexual relationships were part of pagan rituals doesn’t make it seem any more acceptable to me – on the contrary, it seems even more like something to avoid! Just IMHO.
And I wouldn’t define it as purely prostitution… Undoubtedly many relationships would have been based on mutual attraction. Greece and Rome were renowned for their pederasty, with many Graeco-Roman deities and legends having had boy lovers, including Zeus and Hercules.
At last, some neutral ground to dialogue on. Okay Scott, I will refer to you on this. You must understand as you said, that it depends on a person’s convictions. I can tell you now, two contrasting points. One, for some LGTs, having relationships is something beautiful. You need to respect that, because no one is trespassing on your safe place, but you are on others. Two, we are hurting God everyday, even by having this discussion. You need to acknowledge that, as I will in the end of this post.
I have to reiterate, I did not begin this back-and-forth discussion because I felt that my rigths were under attack, but because I felt that the Christian faith’s stand on what is right and wrong by God’s reckoning was being undermined. More on that at the conclusion.
I respect that LGTs feel their lifestyle is wonderful, and respectfully disagree that Christ condones it. I’m not sure about the hurting God by discussing part.
You already are set with a belief system since young, so some beliefs are even easier to digest into your skull. You must think about it.
Oh, I have thought about it often. I didn’t exactly turn out to be the young man my parents wanted me to be… They’re still proud, but I tread my own path.
I never really went to church or read the Bible as a youth. Much of my knwoledge comes from online, where views of every angle are presented.
A little on my past beliefs: As a younger lad, I firmly believed in evolution. Why? Well, because evolution was scientific fact!
That changed as I got older, took up biology, went to university, learned up on the Net… Then found that evolution had too many holes in it that were not answered, just swept under the carpet of ‘scientific acceptance’. I no longer believe evolution is a fact, but a very elegant theory that needs to be proven.
I admit that the prevailing view among Christians and Asians surrounding me is that homosexuality is unGodly. And I admit that this view would have been passed on to me. But my current beliefs are entirely my own, my research and logicking all to my own satisfaction.
If my convictions happen to match what was told to me in childhood, put it down to coincidence, because there are plenty other views that do not match.
I will say this out loud and clear, as I state often in my blog: If I am convinced that something is the proven truth, I will humbly and publicly accept it. That goes for whether homosexuality is God’s will, and the usual suspects of whether evolution and global warming are fact.
So I hope that when that time finally comes, IF EVER, I will be able to go through on my promise to be open minded.
We should be more vary that the Christian beliefs is mixed up with the Mormon beliefs there. Some investigation into MCC is needed.
I don’t really follow. Clarification? I actually only brought in the Mormons as a casual example. I could have just as easily used any other example, meaning that I didn’t mean to imply anything specifically to do with the Latter Day Saints.
As I said, we may argue on the merits on culture, but principles of Christianity is sound. Homosexuality, is more than a culture now. It is just part of life. Your beliefs would always be your beliefs, but please do not judge other people and impose your views on others. Other than that, I wish you all the best in your future undertakings and thanks for the discussion. Hope it open your eyes more, as it has opend mine. God bless and take care.
Forgive me if I ever made you feel that I was attacking LGTs. I try not to get into polemic confrontations – sticking to apologetics is much more peaceable.
I suppose the reason I even ever posted about the Star newspaper report about the homosexuality-accepting church is because I felt that MY system of belief was under attack, i.e. mainstream Christianity with all its doctrines, including the teaching that homosexuality is not right by God.
It felt to me that my declared faith was being hijacked. That people with differing beliefs – irreconciliable alternate doctrine – had just come along and told the whole country, “Hey! WE are the REAL Christians and this is what Christianity really teaches!”
It was a feeling of exasperation and some outrage – who are they to come along and take over the definition of true followers of Christ?
In that way, it feels the same as when a new cult coming along and saying “Hey everyone! Jesus really taught so and so. This is the true teaching, and all those mainstream churches are sinfully misguided and too arrogant to admit that they’ve been proven wrong!”
And feeling thus feeling ‘under attack’, I went on the ‘defense’ and made known my strong emotions in that first post.
And that’s my clarification. I hope you can empathize with how I felt, and probably how many other mainstreamers in Malaysia feel, even if you disagree with the reasonableness of the cause of my feelings.
I suppose a comparison would be like NAMBLA (which promotes underage sex with boys) showing up and claiming that “All tolerant and accepting LGTs support our practise because we’re the most enlightened of all sexual preference groups! Only the bigots cannot accept us, and they’re hypocrites who have forgotten how they themselves were prejudiced against by the heterosexuals!”
In fact, NAMBLA did try to associate themselves into the larger LGT community, and were mostly given the cold shoulder.
In conclusion, I believe we understand each other on this matter: We have differing viewpoints, and are each convinced of our own correctness. I guess we shall leave it at that. And if we never come to agree on this matter, I hope to meet one day in Heaven and have it all sorted out then.
I am actually not very much into debating sexual orientations. I’m much more practised at debating evolution, global warming and the historical basis of Christianity and its Scirptures.
All in all, it’s been an informative discussion. I’ve appreciated getting to know how you think and why you think it, and I hold no ill will or poor perception of you.
God bless… Seriously and honestly!
SCOTT’S NOTE: While I maintain my personal convictions – based on Scripture – regarding this issue, I apologize for any hurt or offense I may have caused with my remarks.