Scott’s Letter on Caning Gets Responses


My letter on caning got quite a discussion going. Remember, what I support is disciplining and control via carefully controlled guidelines, NOT physical abuse and violence.

LAST UPDATE: 6 March 2008

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First up, a response by T… Who sounds just like some of the unhinged commentors I get who miss my point entirely, attack my character and go off on an incoherent rant attacking what they mistakenly perceive to be my viewpoint.

Though her starting comments quoting Star Wars should have given some clue as to how much she’s in touch with the real world.

This gal has definitely never taught in a modern Malaysian public school before – unlike both my parents, my fiance, my ex-teachers, all their teacher friends, and myself in private tuition – and will never even ever attempt to in order to prove her point – she’s the standard Moonbat who talks big and believes she is right no matter what the evidenceor reality may show otherwise.

Judge for yourself if she’s ever been out of her little padded bedroom to see what the majority of schools are like these days:

(Note: All personal remarks about Tarshini have been apologized for in the comments below. Sorry for being rude to you! – Scott)

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Teach with some love and respect

     CaningTarshini1     CaningTarshini2

I REFER to the letter “Empower Teachers to Discipline Students,” (The Star, Feb 14).

Firstly, the writer seems to be labouring under the delusion that schools here are wretched hives of scum and villainy (to shamelessly plagiarise a famous phrase). This is clearly evidenced by his analogy of the police force being made to “maintain law and order without firearms.”

I would really love to know how a boisterous student could be likened to a rapist, murderer, snatch thief, or even a common pickpocket. I must confess, the first image that leapt to my mind when I read that passage was of adults hiding in trenches and launching hand grenades upon the reviled enemy: children.

I mean why don’t we round up all school kids, the kind filled with natural exuberance and joy, and lock them up in camps?

The writer mentions “respect and fear.” Let me just say that those two things should never go hand-in-hand. Respect cannot be given or commanded via fear, it must be earned.

I am not saying that we shouldn’t punish misbehaving kids and that all students are just full of youthful high spirits. Yes, there are troublemakers and yes they must be dealt with, but certainly not by caning.

Violence begets violence, and with caning, just what kind of values are we trying to instil in the younger generation? Likewise, who is he to say that all teachers are misunderstood and harassed, burdened and martyred?

Sure, some are, but unless you’ve taken a nationwide census, do not propagate what is mere speculation and attempt to pass it off as fact. The writer also refers to “strict British-style schooling.” I attended a school with a British curriculum and was never even so much as roughly poked.

The writer claims that at such a school, he learnt to grow up and be civilised.

Let me introduce him to what civilised people refer to as child abuse – “physical, sexual, or emotional maltreatment or neglect of children by parents, guardians, or others responsible for a child’s welfare.”

Corporal punishment easily encompasses physical maltreatment.

It may get the kids to listen at that moment, but studies have shown that corporal punishment of children only increases short-term compliance.

The writer seems to have the notion that the only alternative to caning is using “soft approaches, quiet voices, and gentle persuasion.” It’s like saying that the only cure for obesity is bulimia.

Nowhere in any code of conduct does it say that teachers can’t yell, set extra homework or lines – these punishments will not only leave a more lasting lesson, but also aid students intellectually.

Parents must juggle jobs and looking after their kids, as well as many more burdens.

Is it too much to ask that education with which their hard-earned pennies are invested upon be delivered with dignity, respect and love?

Teachers are among the most blessed of professionals – you can hardly call it a job, as it is more of a calling.

Several studies have shown that the more children are spanked, the more angry they become as adults and the more likely they are to spank their own children.

Caning and hitting are closely related with higher rates of physical aggression, substance abuse and an increased risk of crime/violence in adolescents.

TARSHINI S. SUKUMARAN,Sg Buloh.

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And now, some more remarks from interested participants:

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Not the best way to bring up children

     HelpTheKidsCaning

I READ with interest “Empower teachers to discipline students” (The Star, Feb 14). Immediately, images of kids with very low self-respect and little discipline came to mind.  

How many of us have seen kids shouting back at their parents in public, especially when their nonsensical requests were not met? 

Nowadays, most parents have adopted the so-called “softer” way of teaching their children and don’t allow teachers to scold their children.  

It is about time we realise that this is not the best way to bring up our kids.  

Don’t get me wrong. I’m totally against child abuse. However, the fact is that children need to learn what is right and wrong.

The basic approach should be praising them when they do good and punishing them when they do wrong.  

HELP THE KIDS,  Klang, Selangor.  

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     RamamurthyachariCaning

In favour of caning      

I REFER to “Teach with some love and respect” (The Star, Feb 17) protesting against the caning of students. The writer said caning was outright violence, and cited his spell in a British curriculum system school.  

I was educated in a mission school where no parent voiced displeasure in seeing their children caned.  

Schools in that era had uncontested rights over their students. No one saw caning as violence. Everyone saw it as a way to instil discipline and good values in students. 

Most of my schoolmates are in our late sixties now. If not for the caning we received, we might not be what we are today. 

Because certain groups say that caning is barbaric, a wrong message is sent.  There is no reason why it should not be re-introduced in schools and extended to girls as well.  

K. RAMAMURTHYACHARI,  Penang.  

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Days of caning and whipping are over

     CaneWhipOver1     CaneWhipOver2

IN response to In favour of caning in The Star, Feb 18, I’d like to begin by saying that those days are over. While I’m sure the writer has accomplished much, the world has changed.  

As we have progressed, we have discovered more methods of teaching, learning, and reaching out to students. What is best for one child is not necessarily what is best for another.  

Sixty years ago, problems like ADD and dyslexia were not given attention to at all. In fact, during schooling in that era, children were whipped for the “crime” of being left-handed. Is this truly an education system that can deem itself sophisticated or helpful?  

Times have changed, people are far more educated with regards to teaching others and we have only two options: evolve or die. Either jump on the wagon or hop off the tracks, my friend.  

What is the point of progress if we cling on to the sad remainders of yesteryear? While there are always values that will remain constant no matter what the year, education – like healthcare – is not something that should be allowed to stagnate.  

You wouldn’t go to a hospital today and expect them to treat you with medicine and from the 1950s, would you? The very idea itself is laughable. 

And the letter also says that without caning, he or she “might not be” what they are today. Let me just say that it is a sad, sad world when all the positive achievements one has made in his or her lifetime must be attributed to violence.  

What about personal drive, intelligence, hard work and talent – or perhaps these are all modern traits? Finally, the letter claims that “certain groups say caning is barbaric”. Certain groups? The majority of the educated world are of the conviction that caning in schools is unhelpful, has more adverse effects than positive, and is brutal to boot.  

To be concise, certain groups say caning is not barbaric and these groups are either outdated or just plain inept at interacting with children. 

The writer has presented no concrete evidence for caning, and only cites personal experiences from half a century ago. Please, let’s have some basis for an argument here. 

Finally, in my last letter, I did cite my spell in a British curriculum system school. I was there from the first grade until I graduated from high school (in 2006). Therefore, I am able to refer to my experiences as those of modern-day schooling, and not bring up an education from 50 years ago and try to purvey it as relevant to today’s age.  

TARSHINI S. SUKUMARAN, Sg Buloh, Selangor.  

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Well, no wonder T talks the way she does – she finished high school in 2006!

She therefore went through school long after the system began collapsing; has never personally experienced the ’50 year old’ system she disparages; and is a product of the ‘progressivist’, post-modern liberalism world.

In other words, a Moonbat.

Therefore, there is little point in arguing the facts and experience with her – as she has already formed her conclusions based on personal bias, not evidence.

Bet you she cries for the poor opolar bears drowning in the global warming, thinks DDT is a worse killer than malaria, opposes the liberation of Iraq, and feels that we can love and hug terrorists and criminals into becoming reformed.

And here’s fifty bucks betting that when she herself has children, she’ll either be wildly smacking them or be terrorized by their uncontrolled brattiness. Prophetic lol!

And if she’s a child of the Internet era, let’s hope she can find her name here…

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Why caning was banned in Britain

     WhyCaneBannedBrit

THE time has now come for me to give you the details of how and why we banned the use of the cane on children in Britain some 50 years ago. 

In the 50s, the British Board of Education was persuaded to change the law in British schools on the use of corporal punishment. 

This radical change came about mainly due to the dedication and determination of a band of teachers in Britain who started the movement called S.T.O.P (School Teachers Opposed to Punishment.)  

The decision to use corporal punishment on girls is a serious matter and not to be taken lightly. There are many who advocate the re-introduction of corporal punishment for boys in the UK however, few would agree to this being used on girls. 

The medical implications in girls on their monthly cycles poses a real problem, and it would be inhuman to disregard the physical and psychological differences between the sexes. 

JANE WHITE,
Hastings, East Sussex, UK.

[Scott: Just let me say that this is the same ‘progressive’ Britain that has removed Winston Churchill from the schoolbooks and where 1/4 don’t believe Churchill even really existed, where dhimmitude is taught in schools and the Anglican Archbishop panders to sharia (as well as homosexuality, the secular idea of Jesus as myth and global warming hysteria); and where fifty babies are aborted ALIVE then left to die by girls who never learnt discipline, responsibility and a Christian value for life.

Yeah, great job liberalism has done for Blighty’s education system, and the society that grows from that school education. And what happened to the feminist concept of equal treatment regardless of gender?]

And here’s a nostalgic personal-experience letter from a ‘victim’ of the ‘barbaric’ British-style school system (/sarcasm):

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No harm in wielding cane

   StXaviersProCaning1   StXaviersProCaning2   StXaviersProCaning3

WHAT is it about teachers that they could be used as a punching bag for all the wrong things that happens in school but not the students?  

I’m from St Xavier’s Institution where Brother Charles was an all-time favourite and then there was Brother Casimir. I would wish that there were more Brother Charles or Brother Casimir in all schools today.  

Incidentally, did anyone who had been under the cane of Brother Charles grow up with permanent head damage or was scarred for life? On the contrary, if Brother Charles is still with us today, a lot of us would go up and shake his hand for instilling discipline in our lives.  

I admit that I’d never been caned in school before but I did like the way Brother Casimir and disciplinarian Joseph Chin handled a situation. They would always explain to the guilty before handing out their punishment.  

Personally, I know of “guilty” friends who had since gone up to shake Chin’s hand on the street and talk about the “good times”.  

Thanks to “concerned” parents, schools today are in a dilemma. But it is not their fault, they are just voicing out their discontentment every time their little darlings get a good spanking for misconduct.  

Seriously, if the concerned parents themselves cannot control their children, wouldn’t it be prudent to let the teachers handle them? But yet, pride and prejudice prevails. 

“I can’t bring myself to cane my child for misconduct but neither should anyone else!”  

It’s funny that the concerned parents who can’t get their child to behave are the ones who point the finger at the teachers for their own failing.  

At the age of three, my daughter would say: “but mommy says that I could have it.” And I would say: “I’ll go and check with mommy!” And what do you know, mommy didn’t say “yes”.  

My daughter is like any other child. At a very young age, they have already started to find ways and means to get what they want. At home, when she throws a tantrum, she will get the cane. But before I cane her, I would explain to her what is wrong and give her a chance to stop her tantrum by counting to three.  

Naturally, if the caning is too soft, you might as well forget about it. Whenever my wife canes my daughter, she’ll be running about taunting and laughing at her mother until I step in. It has to be hard enough for them to feel the tingling pain but not hard enough to scar them for life. It’s good to cool down first before applying the cane. That way, you will have control of the stroke.  

During PTA, we formally passed authority to the teacher by telling the teacher in front of our daughter to instill punishment if she misbehaves. By doing so, the teacher has been given the responsibility of a guardian, and our daughter will acknowledge her likewise.  

Today, my daughter is eleven. So far has been consistently first in the first class. She is a prefect and is involved with the choir and choral speaking, plays the piano and guitar, loves to swim and teaches her friends mathematics.  

My wife would always tell her friend’s that she’s her daddy’s girl as she has my ethics. The teachers praise her for her manners. Why am I saying all this? It is clearly our responsibility as parents to educate our children, not the teacher, the school or the Government. 

CHENG WOOI, Penang.  

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Give teachers leeway to punish errant students

     GiveTeachLeewayPunish

OF late, there have been a lot of comments and criticisms in the letters column about caning students. 

Some decades ago, parents were so concerned about the character development of their children that they would request teachers to punish them if they were found to be delinquent.  

They trusted the teachers with the disciplining of their children. It was easier then for teachers to handle their students without the interference of the parents.  

Children should be corrected while they are young as, it is said, young stems are easier to straighten if they slant.  

For some students, mere reproachment won’t do; they need a real hard spanking or caning (no serious injuries, of course) to send the message that their misdeeds were severe enough to warrant it.  

Thus, to say that caning will scar children for life as mentioned in some letters is not true as long as the punishment is meted out fairly and not out of anger, frustration or stress.  

On the other hand, verbal abuse can be more harmful than corporal punishment. 

Derogatory words and phrases like, “bodoh…stupid…numbskull…good-for-nothing….useless bum….hopeless etc.” should never be used on any child.  

A child may be slow at a certain stage of development but may speed up and grow up to be successful later, if given a lot of encouragement, hope and assistance.  

So, teachers, beware of what you utter. Words can be in the memory of a person for life!  

TAN LEE HUAN,  

Bukit Mertajam. 


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9 Responses to “Scott’s Letter on Caning Gets Responses”

  1. T Says:

    Hi bb🙂 Thanks for the personal attacks and lack of evidence. I was really hoping you’d write back, as your arguments have validity and I’m always up for a good debate. It’s a shame you had to resort to funky-ass statements like “Moonbat”.

    (Oh by the way – haven’t you heard the phrase “I’m not gonna diss you on the Internet ‘cos my momma taught me better than that”?)

    Of course I would attack your character if, by way of words, you are incapable of properly expressing your viewpoints. Slagging someone off on a blog is just puerile, and my rant was not incoherent.

    (But yes, it was a rant.)

    BIIIG props for knowing it was Star Wars😉 although you ARE old so I guess you’d know.

    I have not taught in a modern Malaysian public school, no, I’m seventeen (and please do not use age as a platform from which to launch arguments, as youth doesn’t ALWAYS mean stupid). In fact, I just arrived here last year, I was living overseas. But you CAN’T say “Malaysian schools only like this wor”, because that’s B-freaking-S. It is. People are people are people, when you take it all away. I realize I left that wide open for you to cite cultural differences and all that; but – you can’t say Malaysian kids are different to Bruneian kids or Singaporean kids… socioeconomically, religiously, whatever it is – I truly believe that in a setting like public schools (or schools fullstop) you tend to revert to this basic personality. Wow, I’m using a lot of words to say the simple: All kids like having fun. All kids want friends. All kids want to be liked. Do you get me at all? I’m wayyy hungry and the lab I’m in is freaking cold and I need to pee. So sorry if I seem rushed🙂

    My mother is a teacher. My brother is nine, and he attends a public school, and the bullcrap he has to deal with is of an agonizing level. I have many friends who ARE teachers as well; in both public AND private schools here AND overseas. I think that that alone should tell you I have a fair, balanced view – you know teachers. Do you know students? CURRENT students, in a modern Malaysian public school? I did try to speak from both sides, that of teachers AND students.

    And no, you’re right, I probably would never teach in a modern public school. Mostly because I don’t want to teach. You don’t teach either, bar private tuition. Which, come on…

    BTW, “Moonbat”? Sorry, haven’t heard that before. Define?

    What makes you say that I am talking big and will believe I am right no matter what? You don’t even know me. Personal attacks, I thought, were far below you. Your letter impressed me in terms of evidence and writing; which is the sole reason for my deigning to reply. It’s The Star for chrissakes. Honestly, I don’t see a reason for your bitterness and wannabe-funny sarcasm, because I was NOT trying to launch a personal attack or cast aspersions on who you are, I was attempting to highlight how ludicrous I found your statements to be.

    And honey, as a student NOW (granted, I’m in college now not school), I think I’d be far better equipped to discuss schools nowadays than a guy now in his sixties. (Not that you are, I mean. Duh. Unless you’re marrying way late.)

    And a “padded bedroom”? Way for unfounded statements, and man, I love the smell of blogger hypocrisy in the morning.

    “Well, no wonder T talks the way she does – she finished high school in 2006!”

    My age doesn’t have anything to do with it, once again – I disagree with the statement that it has “collapsed”. I don’t see what’s wrong with my generation’s schooling honestly, I see a lot of good stuff that you have to take WITH the bad. As with all things, there is a dichotomy. You say “progressivist” and postmodern as though it is a BAD thing, when in actuality you are just coming off as a relic who refuses to move through the times. (Note I said “coming off”, don’t interpret that as another so-called personal attack, okay?)

    I AM also arguing facts AND experience – my own, as well as facts I’ve gotten off the world wide web and other teachers. You, however, are the one who did not cite a SINGLE study or quotation or any such secondary viewpoint in your letter.

    No I don’t cry for polar bears (why am I even replying to your immaturity?); I think animals are doing fine. Save the humans. (Before you ask, no I’m not vegetarian either :P); am all for the liberation of Iraq; and firmly believe that “An’ it harm none, do what ye will” – ergo, terrorists should have their appendages blowtorched off.

    HAHAHA, love your statement regarding my kids – brother, I am NOT going to open that can of worms. I KNOW that if I had kids, I would be what you described – the kind who hits. And, um, yeah, I believe if you can;t do something, don’t. So kids is not an option for me, because I will become what I am opposed to. If y’know what I mean.

    LOL I feel proud I found my name😉 Although I didn’t really… my friends were bored and googled me. Voila, you were the first hit.

    AND OMFG I LOVE YOU FOR POSTING THAT ABOUT THAT BRIT CHICK. I was like WTF. Sexism much? I think it’s BS when chicks demand that we get equal pay or whatever and yet don’t think rules that apply to boys apply to girls.

    (Aside from the ones about flushing your pads or similar…)

    Anyway, please do reply. I really am enjoying this, in a debate-y way, if y’know what I mean. Honestly, my reply was not meant to be personal and I wish you hadn’t taken it as such. If you hadn’t seemed intelligent and capable of carrying out a cogent and well-informed argument, I wouldn’t’ve bothered replying. Of course, I thought this before I found your little Page O’ Flames😉

    Hope to hear from you soon.

    T.
    (Nickname. T is my IC name, but I’d prefer T and I’m guessing you don’t give a rat’s a$$ so I’ll stop rambling now…)

  2. T Says:

    Oh, once more, the nasty comments weren’t necessary and all. I know I’m just proving your idea of me as some sort of naive young hippie tree-hugging emo moron; but they really weren’t NICE.

    If you get what I mean?
    😛

  3. T Says:

    OH and you can reach me at [hidden by blog host] if you wanna continue this; or [hidden by blog host]. Y’know, just if.

  4. Scott Thong Says:

    Hey T. Actually, no grudge is held… When I posted this on my blog I was just quite miffed about being ripped into, in a national newspaper no less, because of what I perceive to be a misconstruing of the intent of my letter.

    To be straightforward, I did not in any way advocate uncontrolled physical caning – merely the threat of caning would have sufficed. But it would have to be backed up with actual permission to cane, or students would know it to be an empty and ignorable boast.

    And what was printed in the papers was personally attacking my character and state of mind, so I felt that I was permitted some leeway in some return mud-slinging – on my own blog, not Malaysia-wide and The People’s Paper approved.

    (Yeah, that was a bad decision, but bloggers ethics forbid removing an embarrassing inclusion to hide one’s guilt. The most I can do is apologize for it.)

    ———————————

    Your words in The Star (at least, your words after the editors had their way with them) in italics. Followed by my thoughts in normal font.

    Firstly, the writer seems to be labouring under the delusion that schools here are wretched hives of scum and villainy (to shamelessly plagiarise a famous phrase). This is clearly evidenced by his analogy of the police force being made to “maintain law and order without firearms.”

    I would really love to know how a boisterous student could be likened to a rapist, murderer, snatch thief, or even a common pickpocket. I must confess, the first image that leapt to my mind when I read that passage was of adults hiding in trenches and launching hand grenades upon the reviled enemy: children.

    Delusion… Ouch!

    Grargh! Must… Salvage… Ego!!! Attack!!!

    There, I think that about sums up my gut response when I read your letter.

    I chose the police analogy for its shock value and appeal to emotions. It’s not to say that students are criminals or monsters.

    A police officer’s job is to stop crime, and they are given the powers to do so. A teacher’s job is to teach students, but they are not given the authority to control the class.

    The writer mentions “respect and fear.” Let me just say that those two things should never go hand-in-hand. Respect cannot be given or commanded via fear, it must be earned.

    I concluded (wrongly?) that your views lean towards the liberal left because of this. Conservativism believes that people are naturally flawed – little children do not understand or accept the concept of good behaviour naturally, but they do understand firmness and authority.

    Conservatives acknowledge the fact that in real life, people are NOT ideal and well-behaved individuals. This is why strict laws are required instead of asking people nicely not to speed or litter. Many people have to be threatened in order for them to be motivated be behave.

    This is why Malaysians in Singapore behave well in public, while Singaporeans in Malaysia are rude in public. ( https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2006/12/22/rule-enforcement-dota-and-the-ugly-southeast-asian/ )

    This is why Communism failed – it would be perfect if people were inherently good, but people are really inherently selfish b*stards.

    This is why appeasing terrorists does not work – they will just demand more and more.

    This also applies to giving the bully your lunch money every day – do you think he will stop because of that?

    And this leads to rebellious students – do you seriously believe that more affection, more pandering, more surrendering, more bowing to their whims will convince them to recipocrate? (In an perfect, ideal world like Tellytubby Land perhaps…) Or will it reinforce their power-and-control behaviour?

    This is a sad fact of life, but this is what life is like. It may seem brutal or backwards, but I see it as pragmatic – idealism is all fine in theory, but seldom works in practise.

    If you know any parents who let their children act like little monarchs, you’ll understand how disruptive and uncivil such kids can be in public – they refuse to listen to their parents’ pleas to behave, especially because they know their parents have no power to back up their begging.

    Imagery for you: A small child in a supermarket shrieking “I WANT IT I WANT IT I WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNT IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!!!!!!!!!!! AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” for five minutes while the parents coo and beg and console her. And finally give in to her.

    How to resolve this problem? If it were my child, I would threaten a public spanking – and she would know I would carry out my painful (though superficially), embarassing threat. Result? Almost inevitably concurring and learning that actions have consequences.

    Likewise, who is he to say that all teachers are misunderstood and harassed, burdened and martyred?

    Sure, some are, but unless you’ve taken a nationwide census, do not propagate what is mere speculation and attempt to pass it off as fact.

    I myself was oblivious to the poor standard in most schools – I thought only bad reputation schools had problems, such as the one I attended myself (I was a good and civil kid though, and thanks my parent’s spanking for it – I am naturally rebellious).

    But my fiancee is a teacher, as are my parents, many of my friends, and all their extended list of friends. And they all have the same complaint – the discipline level in schools is at rock bottom. What I wrote to the papers is not a tenth of the stories of unbelievably disrespectful, FEARLESS misbehaviour students display daily.

    The teachers really want to just teach – but all they do every day is spend 50% of the time trying to futilely ASK the class to get in order, and the other 50% talking to a wall (either the brick one or the one made of sound from screaming students).

    This is in Malaysian public schools, mind you, which was the only consideration of my letter. Seriously, you need to apply to be a substitute or temporary teacher and take over a few classes to really appreciate what it’s like out there. There is no substitute for it. Just do it as an experiment.

    It may get the kids to listen at that moment, but studies have shown that corporal punishment of children only increases short-term compliance.

    And that’s all teachers ask for – sit down, shut up, if you aren’t going to learn then at least let others learn. That is what school is for – since when did parenting involve passing on your genetic offspring to a state ward for upbringing?

    Nowhere in any code of conduct does it say that teachers can’t yell, set extra homework or lines – these punishments will not only leave a more lasting lesson, but also aid students intellectually.

    To quote my fiancee: “That’s not going to work.”

    What’s to be done if they refuse to do their lines – give them more lines? The shouting and playing the fool continues. Nothing is solved. They simply do not care that they are ‘punished’ with more homework – but they really care about getting caned in front of all their friends.

    Parents must juggle jobs and looking after their kids, as well as many more burdens.

    Is it too much to ask that education with which their hard-earned pennies are invested upon be delivered with dignity, respect and love?

    It’s either that children today are spoilt rotten, or that 40 sets of parents expect teachers to be the Life Role Model and Overall Guardian for their kids after the parents spoil them rotten – one of these two is the number one complaint of Malaysian school teachers today.

    —————————————–

    Responses to your comment on this page:

    But you CAN’T say “Malaysian schools only like this wor”, because that’s B-freaking-S. It is.

    But many Malaysian schools ARE like this. It’s B-freaking true. They are.

    Seriously, that is why I warned opiners not to make suggestions unless they are personally acquainted with Malaysian schools in general – not just the nice ones like Convents either.

    Apply for that teaching job. Or babysit some children of diplomats, that works even better!

    What makes you say that I am talking big and will believe I am right no matter what? You don’t even know me. Personal attacks, I thought, were far below you.

    Yeah, I’m sorry for that. As I explained, I felt I was being personally attacked by your letter – and based on a misunderstanding of my actual message.

    To repeat my message: Restore the power to cane and threaten to cane, following very strict guidelines, for the purpose of getting the classroom into order so that teaching may commence.

    BTW, “Moonbat”? Sorry, haven’t heard that before. Define?

    Moonbat is a less repectful term for one who is perceived to hold liberal values.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonbat

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=moonbat

    The vast majority of insults I get come from Moonbats.

    My age doesn’t have anything to do with it, once again – I disagree with the statement that it has “collapsed”.

    I contend that your age does – my time was the last vestiges of strict teachers carrying canes. After that, caning became a total pariah among parents. And seriously, look at thestandard of education among the non-straight A students – they cannot even add or read English at Secondary Three! Their whole student life has been spent playing and chatting and ignoring that impotent teacher.

    You say “progressivist” and postmodern as though it is a BAD thing, when in actuality you are just coming off as a relic who refuses to move through the times.

    To Conservatives, progressivism and postmodernism are progess and modernizing taken to the extreme and gone bad.

    Just because something has been used for generations, does not make it automatically bad. If it worked for centuries, why fix it?

    Look at what ‘the times’ under half a century of ‘progressivism’ have given us – youth gangs, sexual peversion, moral decay. 1950s America was ‘backward’, but their society was strangely somehow liveable.

    4000 years of spanking children and making them upset for a while, out of love, brought us to where we are. Not all old things are bad things – women’s equality, racial equality and whatnot are not the same thing as corporal punishement and cannot be lumped together in one bag.

    No I don’t cry for polar bears (why am I even replying to your immaturity?); I think animals are doing fine. Save the humans. (Before you ask, no I’m not vegetarian either :P); am all for the liberation of Iraq; and firmly believe that “An’ it harm none, do what ye will” – ergo, terrorists should have their appendages blowtorched off.

    So I put you in the wrong box. Very sorry for that again. Super especially sorry for insulting a fellow Humanity-First, Terrorists-Die proponent!

    HAHAHA, love your statement regarding my kids – brother, I am NOT going to open that can of worms. I KNOW that if I had kids, I would be what you described – the kind who hits. And, um, yeah, I believe if you can;t do something, don’t. So kids is not an option for me, because I will become what I am opposed to. If y’know what I mean.

    But what about the rest of the world who do choose to have kids? What happens when physical disciplining is banned by law even in private homes?

    I’ll tell you what happens with an example: Little Manny (not his real name) is brought up by two loving, pampering parents. They do not believe in spanking or scolding.

    Manny runs and screams and plays with everything at home – and brings that same behaviour to the outside world, such as the houses of friends of his parents, or kindergarten, or eventually school and life.

    He knows he is the king. What are soft and gentle persuasion to him? They are the begging of those big people who exist only to serve him.

    “Don’t touch that electrical outlet!” Of course he will touch it – it’s so much fun to mock these powerless, pandering adults!

    Children are who you mold them to be. If they are naturally well behaved, all the better. But if they are naturally rebellious and uncooperative, how can we make them understand that parents are in charge – with more bribing?

    Heck, you want a study? I’ll quote China’s millions of Little Princes and Princesses, with two parents and four grandparents lavishing them with love and care and goodies – but not disciplining.

    —————————————

    LOL I feel proud I found my name Although I didn’t really… my friends were bored and googled me. Voila, you were the first hit.

    Only way I knew I would ever manage to contact you…

    Anyway, please do reply. I really am enjoying this, in a debate-y way, if y’know what I mean. Honestly, my reply was not meant to be personal and I wish you hadn’t taken it as such. If you hadn’t seemed intelligent and capable of carrying out a cogent and well-informed argument, I wouldn’t’ve bothered replying. Of course, I thought this before I found your little Page O’ Flames

    Flattery will get you anywhere!

    (No, I’m serious – butt kissing and pandering will get you nowhere with brats, but it’s the best success-ensurer in work and politics. Sadly.)

    —————————————

    In conclusion, from personal experience I sincerely believe that physical discipline is a necessary tool in schools and in bringing up children.

    In an ideal world, persuasion and compassion would be enough. But that world is not the one we have to live in and face every day.

    Spare the rod and spoil the child – it may be cliched and horribly behind the times, but I contend that – pragmatically – there is little alternative to it.

  5. T Says:

    hey dood. am in college right now registering, so i’ll reply to your awesomely long (YAY LONG EMAIL :D) email tomorrow-ish, k? thanks for the reply🙂

    take care,
    t.

  6. Scott Thong Says:

    At your leisure… ISA hasn’t forced this blog off the Net yet😛

  7. Ruairi Says:

    Caning should be introduced into schools world wide – not as an instrument of violence and abuse, but as an instrument of correction.
    T should be ashamed of herself.
    She should be tied down to a bench and she should receive the cane herself – 24 strokes on the bare.

  8. Scott Thong Says:

    Um, Ruairi, you’re kind of illustrating exactly why anti-caning proponents think the way they do…

  9. T Says:

    Wow. Ruairi has introduced to me a whole new level of crazy.

    “Caning should be introduced into schools world wide – not as an instrument of violence and abuse, but as an instrument of correction.”
    coupled with
    “She should be tied down to a bench and she should receive the cane herself – 24 strokes on the bare.”

    Yeah, I can see how that is an example of a CORRECTIVE measure and not violence and abuse. Heaven forbid I have my own viewpoint! I should be shot, why stop at caning?

    Scott, the best part about your blog? The nutbags you invariably attract :p lulz all the way.

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