Caliph Uthman Destroyed the Qurans – Bet You This Commentor Has No Valid Response


A certain commentor, tong sam pah, who is apparently a convert to Islam, was busy insinuating that the Bible was changed.

To which I responded, that the Judeo-Christian scriptures cannot possibly have been changed due to there being 6 billion printed Bibles, tens of thousands of ancient manuscripts, the Dead Sea Scrolls from 300 B.C. being 99.95% the same as today’s Bible, etc.

And he also insinuated that Christians have tried to change the Muslim scriptures before but failed, and warned us not to try again.

To which I pointed out that we don’t need to do any such thing, because his own Caliph Uthman already did so!

International Burn a Koran Day?

Readers might therefore be interested to learn that the first recorded burning of the Qur’an was a conflagration of many Qur’ans in fires ordered by the third “rightly guided Caliph,” Uthman ibn Affan (644-656 A.D. ). According to Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510, as narrated by Anas bin Malik

  • Caliph Uthman destroyed all variants of the Quran (www.parapundit.com/archives/001519.html) – yes there were many – and banned non-Arabic translations in order to keep it pure, according to his own version of it.

Haha! So I asked him,

Was Caliph Uthman a prophet? (No, according to your own beleifs, Mohammed was the last.)

Was he infallible, sinless and perfect? (No, according to your beliefs, only a prophet is sinless.)

Was his judgement unquestionable? (No, according to your beliefs, only prophets led by Allah have perfect judgement.)

If not, how can you know he did not destroy the true Quran and keep a false Quran – the same Quran you read today?

Ask yourself carefully, and determine if you can know whether your Quran really is unchanged from what Allah gave Mohammed… Or if you have been reading false scriptures ever since the time of Caliph Uthman.

I thus challenge him and all who have an opinion to refute my claims which are backed by history and the narrative of the Hadith:

Caliph Uthman, a fallible and non-Allah led normal human, destroyed all the copies of the Quran he did not like.


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93 Responses to “Caliph Uthman Destroyed the Qurans – Bet You This Commentor Has No Valid Response”

  1. Yusuf Ahmed Says:

    slam mostly spread throughout the region during the first two Caliphs (our Prophet’s disciples); may Allah Almighty be pleased with them, Abu-Baker Al-Siddeeq, and Omar bin Al-Khattab. They were mostly concerned with spreading Islam to the people of the entire region and never had the time, nor the rulership (since Islam wasn’t quite spread throughout the entire region until toward the end of the second disciple’s time) to unify the Noble Quran or the teaching of the Noble Quran with one dialect in recitation and spelling.

    When Uthman bin Aaffan (the third disciple) came, Islam was pretty stable in the region, and he had rulership to implement the Quraishi dialect among all the Arabic speaking people in the entire region, and to teach them the Noble Quran through that dialect only.

    Important Note: If the Noble Quran is recited in a different dialect than the Quraishi one, and if one tries to write down what he is reciting, he could and would end up with different words in spelling and in some cases in meaning as well than the original copy of the Noble Quran.

    When Uthman got hold of all of the Qurans that were written in different dialects, and in some cases were altered to sound exactly like the other dialects, he ordered for them to get burnt because they did not use the proper Arabic that was revealed unto our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and in some cases their words were different because of this dialect difference. He then compiled all of the Noble Surahs (Chapters) of the Noble Quran that were already written during the time of Prophet Muhammad in the city of Madina and formed what we call today the one true copy of the “Noble Quran”.

    Important Note: As I mentioned above, when Uthman, the third Caliph in Islam, compiled the Noble Quran, he did not determine the numerical order of the Noble Chapters and the Noble Verses. The entire Noble Quran as I said was already documented and memorized. Chapters from the Noble Quran were recited by our Prophet peace be upon him at least 5 times a day during the Muslims’ five-daily prayers. Also, the Noble Quran was all recited during the month of Ramadan, as it is still done today. There are other daily and weekly religious occasions, festivals and holidays where the Noble Quran back then and still today was recited either partially or wholly. The Muslims who perfected the memorization of the Noble Quran back then continuously refreshed their memories through teaching others: Muslims and non-Muslims about Islam.

    So, it is beyond the shadow of the doubt that the numbering and the order of the Noble Chapters and Verses was already determined by our Prophet peace be upon him through the inspiration and guidance of Allah Almighty, and not by anyone else.

  2. Benyo Says:

    Wow, Scott Thong. You are such a genius. You have absolutely no idea of the Arabic language but claim here that there were many quite significant variations of the Quran. The quran was written in different dialects back then. Like one quran said “They did not want to” and the other one was “They didn’t wanna”. Like you said: A quite significant variaton. So stop talking about things you have no idea about. What Uthman was doing was to standardize the quran in dialect and you and other Christian missionaries are trying to spread these lies. In the end truth will prevail. It will.

    You know, the thing with the bible is: Jesus never wrote a single word in the new testament. Better: He never read a single word from the new testament. Much Better: The writers of the new testament had never seen Jesus alive. Paul said that he had seen Jesus in his dreams but Paul also said that if you lie in the name of god you are not judged as sinner (ROMAN 3:7). So, your master has no problems about lying. This is in the BIBLE. This is not some story made up by muslims. He says it is not a sin if you lie for God. And this is the guy who is said to have seen Jesus in his dreams. Now I challenge you: Proof me that Paul was not a liar! I can proof that Paul had no problems with lying by referring to ROMAN 3:7.

  3. Scott Thong Says:

    Much Better: The writers of the new testament had never seen Jesus alive.

    Lololol! Looks like you’re more genius than me! Since you know oh-so-well that the people whose names are attached to the books of Mark, Matthew, John, James, 1st Peter, 2nd Peter, 1st John, 2nd John, 3rd John, Jude and the Revelation of John all never met Jesus in person…

    Despite being, respectively: the follower of Peter, Jesus’ tax collector disciple, the disciple Jesus loved, a disciple of Jesus who shared the same name as the brother of the disciple Jesus loved, the leader of Jesus’ disciples, the leader of Jesus’ disciples, the disciple Jesus loved, the disciple Jesus loved, the disciple Jesus loved, Jesus’ own brother, and the disciple Jesus loved.

    But that’s just my lesser genius talking up to yours, I’m sure you know better.

    —————————-

    Like one quran said “They did not want to” and the other one was “They didn’t wanna”. Like you said: A quite significant variaton.

    So which one was right? I wouldn’t know despite my significant geniusness, since all the pre-Uthman manuscripts were immolated, combusted, fried, cooked, toasted, flambed and plain old burnt to crispy cinders.

    —————————-

    Proof me that Paul was not a liar! I can proof that Paul had no problems with lying by referring to ROMAN 3:7.

    Romans 3:7 in various editions:

    For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? (NKJV)

    Lying = sinning, duh. But check out this minority against some other translations:

    Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” (NIV)

    “But,” someone might still argue, “how can God condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?” (NLT)

    Since your lies bring great honor to God by showing how truthful he is, you may ask why God still says you are a sinner. (Contemporary English Version)

    It’s simply perverse to say, “If my lies serve to show off God’s truth all the more gloriously, why blame me? I’m doing God a favor.” (The Message)

    ει γαρ η αληθεια του θεου εν τω εμω ψευσματι επερισσευσεν εις την δοξαν αυτου τι ετι καγω ως αμαρτωλος κρινομαι (Greek NT, Byzantine Majority text)

    You need a better verse to argue with, genius. Or at least more supportive versions to selectively cite.

    —————————-

    And by the same token… ‘Proof’ to me that Uthman did not make any mistakes. If you can ‘proof’ he was perfect, congratulations – you used your genius to show that Uthman was a prophet, since only prophets are perfect among humanity (as Islam says).

    But wait… If Uthman did not make any mistakes and therefore was perfect and therefore was a prophet… Who then is The Last Prophet????????

  4. Ben Shniper Says:

    I have linked to your site here:

    http://colonize.wordpress.com/

    I’m trying to point out the existence of envy in the human spirit will make it difficult to achieve space colonization. It is easier to destroy a colony then to build one of your own… This truth, that a simple rocket costing millions can destroy human life and colonies worth billions or trillions, may make space colonization difficult if not impossible.

    Islam has to get over itself and learn to live with humans of all types inheriting space. If Muslims get upset over that, then islam is a problem that threatens the survival of all humanity.

  5. Scott Thong Says:

    Indeed, your thesis is the driving force behind the plot of Alpha Centauri.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Alpha_Centauri#Setting

  6. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    “..But wait… If Uthman did not make any mistakes and therefore was perfect and therefore was a prophet… Who then is The Last Prophet????????”

    Yea. Ordinary man like us are prone to mistakes and sinned. Only the guided / inspired prophet don’t.

    Paul and Peter were prophets as well, might be

  7. mushrooms Says:

    Uthman was a screwball whom all the present day screwballs are following.

  8. Scott Thong Says:

    But remember that the Judeo-Christian concept of prophets does not require them to be sinless. Peter denied Christ (lying) and Paul persecuted and killed many before his conversion. David committed adultery and arranged a murder, Moses lashed out in anger, Solomon strayed to other gods, Abraham lied, Jacob tricked.

    That is why the free forgiveness offered by Jesus Christ is so important, since no other person is sinless – not even prophets. So no one can enter heaven with their contaminating sin, unless all their sin is ‘neutralized’ by accepting Jesus as their saviour.

  9. casey Says:

    I think all ******s should be **********and made to pay a “Jiddish Tax” or be forced to work on a *** **** or be ****** **, ****** and ****** on the *** ****. Reap what you sow Islam !

    [Redacted by blog author]

  10. Simon Thong Says:

    Casey’s latest comment, I think, is offensive. Please bury it.

  11. Zack T Says:

    Wow… seems our Muslim friends had abandoned this post too… That was really fast of them…

    Good post, Scott.

  12. loop Says:

    Like Marina Mahathir said,’ no point in trying to counter such prejudice and hate.’ Casey is just like one of the sh*t that discriminated by Jesus in Matthew 7:6

  13. Zack T Says:

    Wow… indeed discriminative… Are you judging Casey as ‘sh*t’ then, loop?

    Just a forewarning to you, loop, of what Jesus [hgbuh] said..

    Matthew 7:1-2:
    “Judge not, lest you be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

  14. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Matthew 7:1-2:
    “Judge not, lest you be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

    That passage/verse seems to be in line, in harmony with Quran message/teaching as well. (In fact many others verses). Is this among the uncorrupted verses of the Bible that remained intact?

  15. Zack T Says:

    Of course, Nasaei. Because none of the verses in the bible has ever been corrupted. Haven’t you been reading your Quran?

    THE TORAH WAS TRUE AT THE TIME OF JESUS

    Dawood – Quran 3:48 – 50
    48. He [Allah] will instruct him [Jesus] in the Scriptures and in wisdom, in the Torah and in the Gospel
    49. and send him forth as an apostle to the Israelites. He will say: “I bring you a sign from your Lord”. …
    50. “I come to confirm the Torah which preceded me and to make lawful to you some of the things you are forbidden. I bring you a sign from your Lord: therefore fear God and obey me.”

    Ali – Quran 5:46, 47
    46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary confirming the law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
    47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah has revealed they are (no better than) those who rebel.

    Dawood – Quran 61:6
    6. And of Jesus the son of Mary, who said to the Israelites: “I am sent forth to you from God to confirm the Torah already revealed,…”

  16. Zack T Says:

    TORAH AND GOSPEL WERE TRUE AND UNCHANGED AT THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD

    Ali – 29:46
    And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (then mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury); But say, “We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is One…

    Dawood – 35:31
    What We have revealed to you in the Book [Quran] is the truth confirming previous Scriptures. God knows and observes His servants.

    Dawood – 3:3
    He has revealed to you the Book with the Truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of mankind, and the distinction of right and wrong.
    ____

    MUHAMMAD APPEALED TO THE TORAH AND/OR THE GOSPEL

    Dawood – 10:94
    If you doubt what We have revealed to you [Muhammad], Ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.
    [Wow… Muhammad, doubtful of what Allah told him, can go ask the Jews/Christians for their scriptures.]

    Ali – 16:43, 44
    43. And before thee also the apostles We sent were but men to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realize this not ask of those who possess the Message.
    44. (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou may explain clearly to men what is sent for them and that they may give thought.

    Ali – 5:68
    68. Say: “O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Law the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.“…

    For more info… http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/bible.htm

  17. Zack T Says:

    So… with that established that the Quran teaches the bible was true and uncorrupted at the times of Muhammad and Jesus… why are you still saying our bible is corrupted?
    If you believe our bible is corrupted, then your Quran is not true and thus, not from God.
    But if you believe our bible is uncorrupted and believe in what is revealed in it… then the bible says the Quran and what Muhammad teaches are false and not from God.

    Make your choice, Nasaei.
    1 – Believe that the bible is corrupted and reject the Quran that says the bible is true and unchanged and reliable,
    2 – OR, believe that the bible is unchanged as the Quran says and reject the Quran because the bible is against what the Quran and Muhammad teach for Jesus Christ is our LORD and Savior who can save YOU from the flames of hell.
    3 – OR, prove that the bible was corrupted AFTER the time of Muhammad, which would still leave you with the Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament manuscripts, leaving you at a disadvantage even if you are able to prove the bible was corrupted AFTER Muhammad’s time.

    Enjoy, Nasaei.

  18. loop Says:

    The Biblical prophecies on the advent of the Prophet Muhammad are evidence of the truth of Islam for people who believe in the Bible.

    In Deuteronomy 18, Moses stated that God told him: “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.” (Deuteronomy 18:18-19).1

    From these verses we conclude that the prophet in this prophecy must have the following three characteristics:

    1) That he will be like Moses.

    2) That he will come from the brothers of the Israelites, i.e. the Ishmaelites.

    3) That God will put His words in to the mouth of this prophet and that he will declare what God commands him.

    Let us examine these three characteristics in more depth:

    1) A prophet like Moses:
    There were hardly any two prophets who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad . Both were given a comprehensive law and code of life. Both encountered their enemies and were victorious in miraculous ways. Both were accepted as prophets and statesmen. Both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlook not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well. These include the natural birth, the family life, and death of Moses and Muhammad but not of Jesus. Moreover Jesus was regarded by his followers as the Son of God and not exclusively as a prophet of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslims believe Jesus was. So, this prophecy refers to the Prophet Muhammad and not to Jesus, because Muhammad is more like Moses than Jesus.

    Also, one notices from the Gospel of John that the Jews were waiting for the fulfillment of three distinct prophecies. The first was the coming of Christ. The second was the coming of Elijah. The third was the coming of the Prophet. This is obvious from the three questions that were posed to John the Baptist: “Now this was John’s testimony, when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Christ.” They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.” (John 1:19-21). If we look in a Bible with cross-references, we will find in the marginal notes where the words “the Prophet” occur in John 1:21, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18.2 We conclude from this that Jesus Christ is not the prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:18.

    2) From the brothers of the Israelites:
    Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac (Genesis 21). Ishmael became the grandfather of the Arab nation, and Isaac became the grandfather of the Jewish nation. The prophet spoken of was not to come from among the Jews themselves, but from among their brothers, i.e. the Ishmaelites. Muhammad , a descendant of Ishmael, is indeed this prophet.

    Also, Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the servant of God, His “chosen one” and “messenger” who will bring down a law. “He will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.” (Isaiah 42:4). Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Kedar. Who is Kedar? According to Genesis 25:13, Kedar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of the Prophet Muhammad .

    3) God will put His words in the mouth of this prophet:
    The words of God (the Holy Quran) were truly put into Muhammad’s mouth. God sent the Angel Gabriel to teach Muhammad the exact words of God (the Holy Quran) and asked him to dictate them to the people as he heard them. The words are therefore not his own. They did not come from his own thoughts, but were put into his mouth by the Angel Gabriel. During the life time of Muhammad , and under his supervision, these words were then memorized and written by his companions.

    Also, this prophecy in Deuteronomy mentioned that this prophet will speak the words of God in the name of God. If we looked to the Holy Quran, we will find that all its chapters, except Chapter 9, are preceded or begin with the phrase, “In the Name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.”

    Another indication (other than the prophecy in Deuteronomy) is that Isaiah ties the messenger connected with Kedar with a new song (a scripture in a new language) to be sung to the Lord (Isaiah 42:10-11). This is mentioned more clearly in the prophecy of Isaiah: “and another tongue, will he speak to this people” (Isaiah 28:11 KJV). Another related point, is that the Quran was revealed in sections over a span of twenty-three years. It is interesting to compare this with Isaiah 28 which speaks of the same thing, “For it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there.” (Isaiah 28:10).

    Note that God has said in the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18, “If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.” (Deuteronomy, 18:19). This means that whoever believes in the Bible must believe in what this prophet says, and this prophet is the Prophet Muhammad .

  19. loop Says:

    ‘Matthew 7:1-2’
    Nice quote Zack T.If you sincere then you should pointed to casey for his vulgar behaviour firstly

    My God does not judge you according to your appearance and nice quote only , but He looks at your hearts and looks into your deeds.

  20. Zack T Says:

    ‘Matthew 7:1-2′
    Nice quote Zack T.If you sincere then you should pointed to casey for his vulgar behaviour firstly

    My God does not judge you according to your appearance and nice quote only , but He looks at your hearts and looks into your deeds. ~loop

    Well… I can’t really understand what Casey wrote, due to the redacting…
    and plus s/he’s not referring to Matthew 7. While on the other hand you are, by implying that casey is a dog or swine.
    (And, btw, this wasn’t what Jesus was talking about anyways..)

    And yay… another person brings up the argument of Muhammad being the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18.
    Allow me to look through your arguments and then show you, how your Muhammad… is not like Moses… while Jesus is more like Moses, and not in the ‘physical’ way but in a more significant spiritual way.

  21. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    “Allow me to look through your arguments and then show you, how your Muhammad… is not like Moses… while Jesus is more like Moses…”

    One thing you’ll probably say (like what other “private apologists” said previously..) is that Jesus did not rape a child and Muhammad did? (they are different). …And Jesus did not ‘promote’ killing and Muhammad did? You would probably/likely call it a “rape” pedophile or else..whereas God doesn’t..

    Among the many criteria, frankly Zack, Jesus has no father, how come he be equaled to Moses? Jesus did not marry, and Moses?

    Of course, some are similar, SOME ARE NOT in comparison to one another. At this point, we are selective enough to pick..and to fit our stand ?

  22. Simon Thong Says:

    loop says, “Now this was John’s testimony, when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Christ.” They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.” (John 1:19-21). If we look in a Bible with cross-references, we will find in the marginal notes where the words “the Prophet” occur in John 1:21, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18.2 We conclude from this that Jesus Christ is not the prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:18.

    I fail to understand how you can jump from John the Baptist saying that he is not the Christ, etc..to the conclusion that Jesus is not Christ.

    Also, you should go on to the rest of the passage, especially verses 29-34, where John says that he saw Jesus being baptized with the Spirit, that Jesus is the Son of God

  23. Simon Thong Says:

    Your scripture came much later than the Bible, and much later than the coming of Jesus Christ, and to make your point valid, you must try to make your prophet the fulfilment of the prophecies of the Bible. That I understand but isn’t it unscrupulous of you to choose what you want to and discard what doesn’t fit? Isn’t it disrespectful to try to erase Jesus from Christianity?

  24. Zack T Says:

    Nasaei,

    Please, don’t flatter yourself with some sense of “wisdom” or “knowledge” (read: ‘superiority’) on what I’ll argue about. Cause frankly, your allegations were way too generalizing that pretty much anyone could make such an argument.. even by Muslims like you…
    (which makes me wonder why you still find it no prob for Muhammad to marry a 6-year-old and consummate the marriage [read: have s3x] at 9 years.)

    Now… on to my response to loop… again.
    (he still hasn’t even respond *properly* to my other arguments in the other posts.. is my God greater than Allah that loop can’t respond anymore?? Or give a good defense of his faith?? My LORD, YHWH is indeed great!)

  25. Zack T Says:

    A PROPHET LIKE MOSES

    – Gave comprehensive law and code of life

    Law against/about lying:
    Moses, “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.” (9th Commandment; Exodus 20:16)
    (Notice, no conditions of when one can lie or is acceptable to lie. you cannot lie *period*.)

    Muhammad:
    Surah 3:28, “Let not the believers [Muslims] take for friends or helpers unbelievers [non-Muslims] rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them.
    (read: Don’t befriend a non-believer, unless you have to for your safety.)

    Sahih Bukhari 3:49:857, “He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar.”
    (read: you are not a liar, if your motivation is peace and stopping conflict, even though the good things you said were completely untruthful or just plain made up)

    Sahih Bukhari 4:52:271,
    The Prophet said, “Who is ready to kill Ka’b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew).” Muhammad bin Maslama replied, “Do you like me to kill him?” The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Then allow me to say what I like.” The Prophet replied, “I do”.
    (read: you can say anything, including lie or deceive, if it is to kill an enemy)

    Oh wait… I’m sure you’re very familiar with the doctrine of Taqiyya… what am I doing quoting you scripture for? Silly me.

    Authority to teach/bring the Law to the people:
    Moses spoke with direct authority given to him by God (who spoke to him personally, not through an angel, or whatever)

    Muhammad, claim to speak FOR Allah, but never spoke TO Allah personally and always received sayings from ‘Angel’ Jibril (Gabriel).
    Plus, some of the ‘laws’ he brings are in complete contradiction with the laws given by Moses in the Torah. (e.g. lying as shown earlier)

    Jesus spoke with authority and blessing of the Father, who He speaks to directly (also not through an angel or whatever) about the law and even reintepreted some of the laws: e.g. Sabbath, dietary laws, stoning of adulterers, lusting over women in one’s heart, murder through hate in the heart.

    PLUS, after meeting with God, Moses’ face shone with a bright radiance, due to God’s glory. (Exodus 34:29-30, 33-35)
    Muhammad never had such miracle happened to him (and Muslims concur by saying his only miracle was being illiterate and producing the Quran, which he himself did not write or record, as Zaid himself said)
    Jesus, however, did have such a miracle happen to him, where His face shone like the sun and His clothes as white as light, recorded as ‘The Transfiguration’, Matthew 17:1-5.

    Beat that!

  26. Zack T Says:

    – Both encountered their enemies and were victorious in miraculous ways

    Moses, relied on God’s miraculous plagues to finally change Pharaoh’s mind to release the Jews… and Moses led them out of slavery and oppression by their enemies, also with God’s miraculous signs and wonders (e.g. pillar of fire, parting of the Red Sea) to God’s promised land, which was promised to Abraham and his descendants four hundred years earlier.

    Muhammad, relied on zealous men to attack and kill enemies… might have saved some from slavery, but he did enslave others (and allowed men to have sex with their slaves; married or not)
    Did nothing to lead men to God’s ‘paradise’.. except said something about a guarantee by death for jihad.

    King David – plenty of times encounters enemies and plenty of times miraculously defeats them…
    Not only King David, but a lot of kings and others (e.g. Jeremiah, prophet Elijah, prophet Elisha) in the OT. Yet you ignored them?

    Jesus, relied on God (Father, Holy Spirit and Himself) to save ALL men from slavery to sin, and deliver us to eternity with God in Heaven… with a guarantee!

    _

    – both were accepted as prophets and statesmen

    Moses, prophet and statesmen for the Jews. (no need to argue that)

    Muhammad, believed to be a prophet and was some sort of leader of the group (I’m not sure if he can be considered a statesmen, since he never led a nation of sorts; he was influential during his time, no doubt)

    Prophet Daud (David) and Prophet Sulaiman (Solomon) – Don’t Muslims always consider Daud and Sulaiman as prophets as well? Well… here are prophets who are kings. Again.. you ignore them??

    Jesus, was believed to be and looked upon as The Prophet of Deuteronomy by other Jews, including His disciples.

    Acts 3:18-26, Peter said, “But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. … For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.’

    “Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days. And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up his servant (Jesus or Muhammad??), he sent him first to you (Jews, so it’s Jesus) to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”
    (i.e. Nothing about Muhammad here)

  27. Zack T Says:

    – both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them

    David was on the run for a long time too because King Saul wanted to kill him.. yet you speak nothing of him??

    How about this?
    Moses, when he was born, the Pharaoh made a decree to kill all newborn sons of Israelites.
    Muhammad, no such event happened at his birth.
    Jesus, when He was born, King Herod made a similar proclamation to kill all Hebrew children of 2 years and younger. (Matthew 2:16-18)

    Then…
    Moses, to keep him from being killed, his mother sent baby Moses into the heart of Egypt (into the house of Pharaoh, where the Pharaoh’s daughter found him and decided to keep him as her own)
    Jesus, to keep Him from being killed, God had an angel to tell Joseph and Mary to flee to Egypt; and only came out of Egypt after King Herod died. (Matthew 2:13-15)

    _

    – natural birth, family life and death

    Moses definitely had these… So did Muhammad, no doubt……. so did most of EVERY OTHER MEN IN THE WHOLE WORLD! Including you, me, Nasaei, Scott, Simon, Ron, Robert… Yet you said nothing about us?
    So did Prophet Daud and Prophet Sulaiman.. prophet Lot, prophet whoever… Nothing about them.

  28. Zack T Says:

    FROM THE BROTHERS OF THE ISRAELITES

    – The prophet spoken of was not to come from among the Jews themselves, but from among their brothers, i.e. the Ishmaelites.

    No, it WAS supposed to be from amongst the Israelites themselves, not non-Israelites.

    If it was referring to non-Israelites, the text would clearly state so… like:
    * “Brothers, sons of Esau” (Deut 2:4 & 8)
    * “Brothers of Edom” (Numbers 20:14)
    More info: http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Dawud/deut18_18.htm

    Israelites during that time were narrow-minded enough to care only within their own Israelite community, let alone be bothered to think about non-Israelites (who by the way, were mostly out to wipe them out at that time).
    So it is very doubtful they were looking for a prophet from outside their Israelite community.

    – Isaiah 42:1-3 speaks of the servant of God, His “chosen one” and “messenger” who will bring down a law
    As shown already, Jesus fit the ‘law’ part better than Muhammad.
    But I find it interesting that here is loop enjoy referring to Muhammad as the ‘chosen one’…
    first of all, what achievement/goal was he ‘chosen’ to accomplish?
    Next, what does that make the Messiah? If the ‘Messiah’ was not the ‘chosen one’, then why does the Messiah get such an interesting title while Muhammad just gets “the final prophet”?

    – Verse 11, connects the awaited one with descendents of Kedar, second son of Ishmael

    Anyone with an electronic bible or a bible with a search engine, search the word “Kedar”.
    I did that, and came across several verses that had this word/name.
    1 – In two verses, it’s mentioned as Ishmael’s son, no prob.
    2 – one verse, is what loop is talking about
    3 – another verse, that references to the second coming of Christ where “all the flocks of Kedar will be gathered to” Him
    4 – one more verse, where the ‘tent of Kedar’ was used to describe the skin color of a lady in Song of Solomon.
    5 – lastly, every other verse (six of them; not including the ones mentioned above) are talking negatively about Kedar. (lamentation, woe to, destroy, glory of Kedar will end, etc)

    Seems like God didn’t really like or wasn’t pleased with Kedar.

    Now, let’s look at the verse in question,
    Isaiah 42:11 [ESV],
    “Let the desert and its cities lift up their voice,
    the villages that Kedar inhabits;
    let the habitants of Sela sing for joy,
    let them shout from the top of the mountains.”

    First of all, loop overlooked ‘people of Sela’… Jordan area… According to loop’s logic, a prophet should be coming out from there too.

    Second, it says “the villages that Kedar inhabits”.. not ‘villages/descendants of Kedar’.
    Actually, in light of the majority verses talking about Kedar (6 out of 10; and another two of the remaining four verses points to Ishmael, who “will be a wild donkey of a man (Job 39:5-8; Gen 21:20), his hand against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen (Gen 25:18)..“)..
    It kind of implies to me that the verse was more talking about villages that were being oppressed by Kedar, not merely that people of Kedar were living in those villages.

  29. Zack T Says:

    GOD WILL PUT HIS WORDS IN THE MOUTH OF THIS PROPHET

    – this prophecy in Deuteronomy mentioned that this prophet will speak the words of God in the name of God. If we looked to the Holy Quran, we will find that all its chapters, except Chapter 9, are preceded or begin with the phrase, “In the Name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.”

    How superficial… If a Christian wrote “In the Name of GOD, the Most Gracious, the Most Loving” in every page of his novel or something, you still wouldn’t consider that the word of your Allah, would you?

    And as pointed out earlier, Muhammad never spoke with Allah personally, but spoke with ‘Angel’ Jibril (Gabriel).

    Quran 53:2-5, “Your comrade [Muhammad] does not err, nor is he deceived, nor does he speak of his own desire. It is an inspiration this is inspired, which one (Gabriel) of mighty powers has taught him.”

    Jesus on the other hand, spoke face-to-face with God, no middle man of any kind was needed.

    Matthew 17:5, “While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, “This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!

    John 8:28, “So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me.

    John 1:18 – “No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.

    _

    – Isaiah ties the messenger connected with Kedar with a new song (a scripture in a new language) to be sung to the Lord (Isaiah 42:10-11). This is mentioned more clearly in the prophecy of Isaiah: “and another tongue, will he speak to this people” (Isaiah 28:11 KJV).

    How in the world did you conclude ‘a new song’ to only mean ‘a song of a completely different language’? By quoting from a completely unrelated chapter!?
    It’s like saying you’d prepare a cooking recipe for a salmon dish from one cookbook, but using the cooking instructions for lobsters within the same cookbook.
    The two chapters you quoted are COMPLETELY unrelated.

    you know what Isaiah 28 is talking about? “Woe to Ephraim”!! Talking about the drunkenness of Ephraim and how the people has abandoned God..

    Very well, let’s say I accept your ‘logic’..
    How about your quote the whole statement of that verse itself in full (i.e. until it hits a full-stop/period)?
    Isaiah 28:11-12 [NIV], “Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”; and, “This is the place of repose”— but they would not listen.

    Sounds like no one’s gonna be listening to your ‘new song’, loop.

    _

    – Another related point, is that the Quran was revealed in sections over a span of twenty-three years. It is interesting to compare this with Isaiah 28 which speaks of the same thing, “For it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there.” (Isaiah 28:10).

    You absolutely have NO IDEA how that verse supports the ‘twenty-three years’ of the Quran’s revelation.. I doubt you even know what the context of that verse is talking about..

    How about we take a look at the context?
    Isaiah 28:11-13 [NIV],
    “Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”; and, “This is the place of repose”
    — but they would not listen.
    So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
    Do and do, do and do,
    rule on rule, rule on rule;
    a little here, a little there
    so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.

    I have to thank you, loop, cause you made me fully understand what this passage is talking about.
    God wants to tell the people (who has abandoned Him or was led astray) to find rest and repose with Him, but His words get distorted (by the rulers of these people, v.14) to mean “do this and that, follow this rule and that, a little ‘revelation’ here and a little there”
    And because of this ‘distortion’, the people will “go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured”.
    Sounds very similar to that of Muhammad and the Quran indeed.

    ________________________

    With that, it is well established that Muhammad does NOT fit the description of Deuteronomy 18’s prophecy… and I did not even touch on Muhammad’s pedophile incident, nor even the ‘Satanic’ verses (which qualifies him to be a false prophet, punishable by death).

    And I’ve also shown how Jesus fits that prophecy perfectly and there are plenty of verses where the Jews thought of Him as such.

    More on why Jesus is “The Prophet Like Moses”:
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/deut1818.htm
    http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/is_Jesus_prophet_like_moses.html

  30. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Zack, not once, but many times, long time ago I read that “answering Islam” site about the prophet like Moses” arguments. You feed me with the same stuff..I’m so lethargic to continue to ‘consume’ it frankly. I have read many other from that site since 6 yrs ago, not new thing. I can list you down also the comple comparison like you do, but I’m tired of doing that again and again. And recently I gave you some of the writers’ names, the familiar faces from that infamous site, including your favorite Sam Shamoun.

    Among the many criteria/characteristics that they had, in the first place Jesus had no father, you go and think, how he is in anyway ‘similar’ to another prophet that had a father?? Is it NOT a fact? I wonder people can still spin the fact !

  31. Zack T Says:

    Nasaei,

    Hahaha… Then how about the criteria that Moses never committed adultery or pedophile? You didn’t bother with that. You admit it straight-forwardly too that there are differences between Moses and Muhammad. Just like an infamous commentor of this blog once said, “Is it NOT a fact? I wonder people can still spin the fact !”

    What’s wrong with Jesus not fulfilling that minor detail or having a biological father… (although He does have a father and that’s THE Father, who you as Muslim deny such title to the LORD… not forgetting, an earthly foster father, Joseph) when He has fulfilled that prophecy in other more magnificent/significant ways and manners. (e.g. wanted dead by a wicked ruling person who killed many children to try and get him; then saved from said predicament by going to Egypt; spoke to God directly without a medium/angel and glowed with some sort of radiance; saved God’s people from slavery and led them to God’s promised place, and plenty more)

    And where in any of the verses in the Torah says that the Prophet must have a biological father like Moses did? or that he is an equal copy of Moses? It says ‘a prophet LIKE Moses’, no? (Hebrew has different words to explain “an exact copy” or “something similar/alike”)
    And well, I’ve shown you and loop how Muhammad doesn’t match ‘uniquely’ to that prophecy… you and I both have fathers too… so what’s so special about Muhammad and Moses having fathers?

    Your similarities between Moses and Muhammad are so bland, it’s pointless to even consider. I’ve shown how Jesus UNIQUELY fit with this prophecy as “THE Prophet like Moses”.

    _

    First of all, I gathered info from answering-islam.org, along with other articles, and used the information gained as support for my argument. And I only added the link for more information, I’m not even relying on those articles to make my point (more for reference/citation for others to read and gain knowledge)…

    Second, you may have ‘consumed’ it over and over, but as of yet, you haven’t shown why their articles are not reliable or misrepresenting or untruthful or insignificant or just plain wrong/mistaken.

    Lastly, the truth stays firm, while falsehoods change with every untruth and bias or contradiction that is spouted or exposed. Refute my points, not my person or anyone else’s.

  32. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Zack, if we take “English Common Law” or any criminal laws of today, that is mostly drafted based on British constitution (including Malaysia?), then it is “pedophile”. By Islamic law, it is NOT. So, your benchmark is not based on Islamic law, but West/ British oriented standard. I’m not talking about, or referring to those unIslamic rule/ law.

    Adults/ adolescence age in the West maybe 18 and above, or 21 in some countries. Anything below that is “illegal” – I mean if you have sex with a girl, even with her consent, it is considered against the law..(You called it “pedophile” or whatever term. Malaysia also incorporated the laws which are not based on Islamic laws. So, as you know this age ‘borderline’ has became laws in their tradition.

    From Islamic point of view, a girl becomes adult once she experiences
    menstruation for first time. From there on, she’s “baligh’ and responsible for every of her deed, not her parents any more.

    Check with human science/ biology, at what age a lass can ever experience her first period (menstruation) ? 18 ? 20?

    I understand, it can happen from 9 (for some girl) and above, not 18.

    Secondly, do not imagine or compare ordinary common people on the street with any prophet. (Do think other people to be “same” like you). There are certain things, which are “possible”, and some are compulsory for Prophet to do, but not for common Muslims (check it yourself to learn more if you wish).

    Therefore, if you take the West’s laws/ Christian standard to judge; and I apply Islamic Laws, we debate till not end!

  33. Zack T Says:

    Nasaei,

    Haha… So you have no problem with child marriages that are still going on in the Middle East.
    I can understand if you want to argue from legalism point of view.
    But let’s talk from human biology point of view..

    Does a girl get her menstruation at 9 years old? I don’t know when is the average age of a girl’s first menstruation, but just because it is possible for a girl to have her first at age 9, does that immediately mean Aisha did?
    What’s more.. does that automatically mean she’s ready for sex? And of all husbands, a man over 50 years old?

    Did you know girls are dying due to having sex (with older men) at such a young age when their relevant organs have yet to be well-developed for such?
    I don’t have the articles for now, but I’m sure I can find them.
    (Plus, if I’m not mistaken, Aisha can be proven to have yet have hers, due to the fact she was still playing with dolls, or something to that effect.)

    And then your point about prophets, I can understand why you wouldn’t ‘compare’ prophets with us ‘ordinary common people’ (although the NT teaches that followers of Jesus are both kings and priests), but that doesn’t negate me pointing to ‘Prophet Daud’ or ‘Prophet Sulaiman’.. or some other prophets.
    And even if I let you go of these ‘prophets’, this is just one part of the problem I’ve pointed out, that is Muhammad just isn’t unique enough to be that Prophet spoken of in Deut, and what’s more, spoke in contrast of what Moses taught and did in contrast of what Moses did.
    So Jesus not having a biological dad is minuscule compared to the many things Muhmmad have in contrast to Moses.

  34. Simon Thong Says:

    “Therefore, if you take the West’s laws/ Christian standard to judge; and I apply Islamic Laws, we debate till not end!” – Nasaei Ahmad.

    What do you want us to do, ACCEPT Islamic Laws? Just so that we can agree with you? It seems to me that you want to eat your cake and still have it. You want to debate with us and not to debate. By the way, the world is moving towards western law with regards to underage marriage; those laws may eventuallypervade the world, another example of globalization. It is primarily in places where ancient practices still persist that the Islamic Laws you propound continue to hold sway. Want to bring them to the west, especially to the US, or England? Want to practice these laws about child marriage yourself?

  35. loop Says:

    A PROPHET LIKE MOSES.

    Jesus on the other hand, spoke face-to-face with God, no middle man of any kind was needed.

    *********
    On my response back to Zack T

    Aha, Jesus is god..but then spoke face to face with god..maybe he talk to himself through his mirror,aha!

    Sorry Zack T, let’s make it serious since someone already ‘was tiring of doing that again and again’.Never mind to start it again. And because of this ‘distortion’, we see who will “go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured”.

    In the FIRST place I said Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to You – ‘JESUS IS A GOD’, but Moses is not God: “Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses.
    JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD’, but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world.. Yes: “Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!”
    “THIRDLY, ‘JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS’, but Moses did not have to go there. Is this true?”Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!”

  36. loop Says:

    Why must God spoke face to face to jesus whom brought No New Laws and new regulations for their people .

    But Moses and Muhummed did . Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people.

    Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-mothers; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”, THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATION.’ There was hardly anything to distinguish between the “man” and the “animal” of the time; they were animals in human form.
    “From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, “into torch-bearers of light and learning.’ ‘TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREAT SECTION OF THE WORLD. …” The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.

    As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an impostor with designs to pervert their teachings, Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion – no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: ‘THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand- unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such foul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say, ‘why don’t you fast’ or ‘why don’t you wash your hands before you break bread’,which charges they always levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honoured the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Muhummed.

    Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses.

  37. loop Says:

    FROM THE BROTHERS OF THE ISRAELITES
    If it was referring to non-Israelites, the text would clearly state so… like:
    * “Brothers, sons of Esau” (Deut 2:4 &
    * “Brothers of Edom” (Numbers 20:14)

    ********************************

    this is proving the phrase ‘LIKE UNTO THEE’ – ‘Like You’ – ‘Like Moses’. The Prophecy is much more than this single phrase which reads as follows : “I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO THEE…….” The emphasis is on the words- “From among their brethren.” Moses and his people, the Jews, are here addressed as a racial entity, and as such their ‘brethren’ would undoubtedly be the Arabs. You see, the Holy Bible speaks of Abraham as the “Friend of God”. Abraham had two wives – Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son – HIS FIRST-BORN- ‘……And Abraham called HIS SON’S name, which Hagar bare Ishmael.’ (Genesis 16:15). ‘And Abraham took Ishmael HIS SON……” (Genesis 17:23). ‘And Ishmael HIS SON was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.'(Genesis 17:25). Up to the age of THIRTEEN Ishmael was the ONLY son and seed of Abraham, when the covenant was ratified between God and Abraham. God grants Abraham another son through Sarah, named Isaac, who was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael.

    Arabs and Jews.

    If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs – so they are BRETHREN to one another. The Bible affirms, ‘AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.’ (Genesis 16:12). ‘AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhummed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- ‘FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN’.(Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the ‘children of Israel’ or from ‘among themselves’, but from among their brethren. MUHUMMED THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN!

  38. loop Says:

    ‘Jesus, was believed to be and looked upon as The Prophet of Deuteronomy by other Jews, including His disciples.’-Zack T

    But according to the Bible: ‘He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.’ (John 1:11). And even today, after two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejected him.

    ‘Muhammad, believed to be a prophet and was some sort of leader of the group.’-Zack T

    “Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhummed’s life impossible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah.”

    Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God’s creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment – HE IS A KING. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhummed too, had the power of life and death over his people.
    There are instances in the Bible of persons who were given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their message, were the prophets lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. The Holy Prophet Jesus (Peace p.b.u.h) also belonged to this category. The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, Charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defence to refute the false charge: JESUS ANSWERED, “MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD’: IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE” (John 18:36) This convinced Pilate (A Pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possession of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet. Is this true Zack T?

    Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses..

    Have a nice day, Zack T.

  39. Gen3 Says:

    I’m neither a christian nor a muslim. But this debate is really interesting. I wonder why only the christian is coming up with sound argument while the muslim is refuting everything blindly and completely ignores or is silent when a real good argument is put forward? they just shift the argument to another area that wont let the highlight remain on the point that they are supposed to reply to or refute with proof. it is really meaningless to argue with people who dont want to really know the truth.
    just like the people arguing that evolution is true. they don’t want to know that creation is true. they DONT want to hear anything but evolution.

  40. Simon Thong Says:

    I’ve been a christian since 1963 and there has never been a time when we have not had to defend our beliefs. The intellectual attacks from WITHIN have always been the most savage and most challenging,. External challenges often miss the point. Those who know christianity best are those inside and are also its fiercest critiques. We are used to it. Our muslim friends believe, and that is about it. I’m not saying that they don’t use their intellect, just that they have not used it in any extensive way. It’s always back to AUTHORITY.

  41. Scott Thong Says:

    This whole discussion on ‘prophet like Moses’ is getting a bit absurd. Did Jesus/Mohammad have a beard like Moses? Have a brother named Aaron like Moses? Kill an Egyptian like Moses? Argue with Pharaoh like Moses? Part the Red Sea like Moses? Have the name ‘Moses’ like Moses?

    See how absurd we can get if we get too petty on minor details?

    We must go back to the specific meaning of ‘prophet like you’ – that the person would be a prophet, just as Moses was a prophet.

    All the rest of the debate hangs on the other points, like ‘from among your own brothers’. Imagine you are an Israelite in the audience listening to Moses, wouldn’t you think it could very well be your own elder or younger brother he is talking about, who will succeed Moses and lead the Israelites into the Promised Land? Hence I favor the ‘brother is an Israelite’ interpretation.

  42. Scott Thong Says:

    WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER – loop

    That is correct, they had conquered all the way to Spain but were repulsed at France and eventually were defeated and pushed out of Western/Central Europe, while they managed to slaughter their way deep into India where they entrenched and eventually managed to get Pakistan for themselves.

    GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREAT SECTION OF THE WORLD

    TOTALLY TRUE!!!! /snark

    As the 2009 Arab Human Development Report pointed out, despite its vast oil wealth, the Middle East remains one of the least developed regions in the world with more than 40% of its population living in poverty.The Star 21 Oct 2010

    In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law.

    Which is why we don’t slaughter animals to sacrifice their blood. So what is the point of korban anymore, then?

    At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say, ‘why don’t you fast’ or ‘why don’t you wash your hands before you break bread’,which charges they always levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honoured the laws of the prophets who preceded him.

    Yes, because the charges leveled at Jesus were far more serious: “You speak blasphemy!” “How dare you equate yourself with God?!” *High Priest rips own robe* *Death penalty for blasphemy – breaking Commandment #1*

    Still can say Jesus never claimed to be God?

  43. Scott Thong Says:

    ‘Jesus, was believed to be and looked upon as The Prophet of Deuteronomy by other Jews, including His disciples.’-Zack T

    But according to the Bible: ‘He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.’ (John 1:11). And even today, after two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejected him. – loop

    Jesus was also rejected as the Messiah by the majority of Jews.

    So by your logic, does this mean Jesus is not the Messiah?

    Which would mean the Quran is wrong on that point? ;P

    Can’t have it both ways, just like with Gospel of Barnabas / Barnabas promoting Paul!

  44. Zack T Says:

    Gen3,

    Thank you very much for the compliment. All praises and glory to our Lord, YHWH; who was, who is and who is to come; one GOD, the true Trinity – Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    I’m glad we Christians aren’t the only ones who see what our Muslim friends are doing… especially loop.

    Now.. back to loop…

    “JESUS is a god, but Moses is not God”

    Exodus 7:1, Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet…”

    “Jesus died for the sins of the world [God’s people], but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world [God’s people].”

    Exodus 32:30-32,
    The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.
    So Moses went back to the LORD and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.
    [In other words, Moses was willing to die for the sin of God’s people]

    Wow… would you look at that? Funny how God answers the challenges against Jesus’ rightful place as the prophesied Prophet, Messiah and King; long before loop or even Muhammad came into the scene.

    “‘JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS’, but Moses did not have to go there.”

    Just as Scott pointed out, this sort of argument is pointless, because I can make a whole list of things Muhammad did that Moses didn’t, and you’d still say they’re alike (even though Muhammad’s list of differences would be longer than Jesus’.)
    For example, married to more than 1 wife (at any time throughout his life), married a 6-year-old, taught lying is alright at some cases, prescribed 100 lashes for adulterers, instead of stoning, did not follow (let alone honor) the Sabbath (Saturday, not Friday), never spoken to God face-to-face/directly but with an ‘angel’, was not a Jew, was not a descendent of Jacob, was bewitched with blackmagic, poisoned to death, tricked by Satan to speak the ‘Satanic verses’, personally killed or decided to have killed numerous people, made no covenant with God’s people [read, Jews], never had a ruling person try to kill him when he was just born, never entered Egypt (let alone to be saved from said ruling person; Egypt, btw, is where Ishmael lived, not Arab), and so on. Wow, long paragraph.

    Still loop is gonna say Muhammad is like Moses, and not Jesus.

  45. Zack T Says:

    Notice, loop’s second comment was completely void of any reference or citation from the Quran or Hadith (at least for some examples) to support loop’s point about Muhammad and the people of his time (being barbaric, etc), but instead, he quoted from some modern-day author ‘Gibbon’..
    Due to him not citing from the Quran or the Hadith (which is where the real authority of Islam lies in), I can’t verify how true it is.

    MOSES gave the LAW

    And what did Moses really bring to the people? Was it the law? Or terms of a covenant?
    Answer: Terms of the covenant that God (of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob; noticed, no Ishmael, nor Kedar) had made with Abraham about four hundreds years before – Exodus 19:1-9a
    (More details –
    http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper83/121183m.htm)

    And we Christians understood Jesus as bringing us the new covenant to replace the old one. (Hebrews 8:6, “Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.”)

    Yes, Jesus did not bring any new law (but instead, changed several of the old; only the sinless can stone adulterers, work on Sabbath day for the sake of those who are in need, and others), while Muhammad came and brought new laws and quite a number that contradicted with the previous ones (some listed earlier).

    [sarcasm]
    Yeah, Muhammad is indeed more like Moses.
    [/sarcasm]

  46. Zack T Says:

    “A BRETHREN LIKE UNTO THEE”

    Once again, your argument doesn’t follow through rightly or at least, accurately.
    Even if you are to argue that Ishmael’s descendants can be considered the Jew’s brethren, that only means ‘brethren’ here means that prophet can come from EITHER the Israelites OR the Ishmaelites; not only the Ishmaelites.

    But you failed to argue my point that in the Torah, when ‘brethren’ is used (on the Jews) to refer to non-Israelites, that the text will clearly state so, as I’ve quoted those two verses (i.e. Brothers, sons of Esau; Brothers of Edom).

    And the two verses loop is relying on:
    1 -‘AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.’ (Genesis 16:12).
    2 – ‘AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18)

    Now compare that with: ‘FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN’. (Deut.18:18)

    Notice something?
    Keep in mind, Ishmael is the STEP-brother of Isaac, meaning he comes a long long time BEFORE these Israelites were even born.
    So, the verses about Ishmael (let’s just accept loop’s interpretation for now) writes “in the presence of HIS brethren“..
    While for the Israelites, it read “from among THEIR brethren” (notice ‘among’ is there too; as in ‘within’?).

    what I’m saying is,
    for Ishmael’s case, “HIS brethren” could include both Ishmaelites and Israelites…
    but for the case of the Israelites following Moses, no… it only refers to them, the Israelites.
    Loop can’t argue otherwise without a verse from the Torah where the word ‘brethren’ (spoken to the Jews/Israelites) was actually meant to refer to non-Israelites. He can’t.

  47. Zack T Says:

    ‘Jesus, was believed to be and looked upon as The Prophet of Deuteronomy by other Jews, including His disciples.’-Zack T

    But according to the Bible: ‘He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.’

    Did I say all Jews accepted Jesus as the Prophet? Did ALL Jews (since His time until now) not ever accept Jesus as the Prophet?
    I guess so, if you wanna consider Messianic Jews and Jesus’s disciples (at least Peter, since I quoted him) as not Jews.

    “Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them.”

    Wow… notice he said ‘acknowledged’… not ‘trust’ him. Maybe loop is aware of several occasions where the people directly opposed Moses (although they did acknowledge him as prophet of God, just that they didn’t like what God was doing so far); which in turn, meant they opposed God.
    And imagine that, Jesus was also opposed directly by God’s people [Jews], while accepted and trusted by others.
    Remember, generally Jews ‘acknowledged’ Jesus as a worker of miracles, because they understood that only those of God’s can do such miracles. They just didn’t agree that Jesus Himself was God.
    (Speaking of which, loop, Christians believe in the Trinity, where the Father and the Son and the Spirit; three distinct Persons are the ONE God, YHWH. Being three persons, the three can be in three, or more in the case of God’s omnipresence, places at one time. We do not teach the Father is the Son, or the Son is the Spirit, or the Spirit is the Father.
    Understand our doctrines, before you try to refute our beliefs, loop; same for Nasaei and any others)

    And no, the Arab nation “as a whole” did not accept Muhammad as the Messenger of Allah.. quite a number of people were against him and came to be at war with him…. WAR.

  48. Zack T Says:

    “Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings. … A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people.”

    “Muhummed”?

    Now.. first of all, it isn’t Moses’s people.. it’s God’s people.

    Second of all, you quoted wrongly about the man who broke the Sabbath and was stoned to death. It was Numbers 15:32-36; imagine my surprise when I came to the verse and found a totally unrelated verse…
    (wait… loop has done it before. Nevermind.)

    Next, was it Moses who made the sentence?
    Numbers 15:35, Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.”
    Read all other translations if you like – http://bible.cc/numbers/15-35.htm

    So, no, Moses did not hold the power of life and death over the people… He was the middle man between God and God’s people.
    Unlike Muhammad who was the second middle man between Angel Jibriel (the middle man; between Muhammad and Allah) and Allah’s/Muhammad’s people.

    [sarcasm]
    Yeah, Muhammad is indeed more like Moses.
    [/sarcasm]

    _

    _

    “Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet. Is this true Zack T?”

    Hahaha! I’m so glad you asked!

    First of all, no, that verse (John 18:36; better check whether it’s accurate….. hey, it is correct! Well done, loop.) does not mean Jesus only claimed to be a prophet…
    That means HE HAS A KINGDOM!! And, as you pointed out, A SPIRITUAL KINGDOM!!
    And whose kingdom is truly spiritual? GOD’S KINGDOM!!
    Jesus is saying that God’s kingdom is HIS KINGDOM! “MY KINGDOM is not of this world”

    If you want to get to God’s kingdom, loop (and Naseai), then you better listen to what Jesus has to say! Not listen to someone who comes 600 years later and hundreds of miles away from Israel and, worst of all, never read any of God’s previous revelations; the Torah or the Psalms by David or even Jesus’ ‘Injil’!

    IT IS JESUS [HGBUH; Honor & Glory Be Upon Him!] WHO IS THE JUDGE OF THE WORLD! NOT Muhammad, who still needs peace to be upon him, because he HAS not peace!

    “Have a nice day, Zack T.”

    Thank you, loop. You are a blessing in disguise from YHWH. Not only you’ve helped me understand some scriptures better (along with some other readers), but you’re making me enjoy this ‘discussion’ quite some and also allowing others to see the terribly weak foundation of your arguments/reasoning that is the faith of Islam.

    I pray in the NAME (singular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that you will know the Truth and be set free by the Truth and come into the saving faith of the true God, YHWH, whose salvation is a free gift that was made available by the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, who came and took away the sin of the world (John 1:29,36).

  49. Scott Thong Says:

    “‘JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS’, but Moses did not have to go there.” – loop

    Conjecture – not explicitly stated in the Bible.

  50. gazooks Says:

    Inferno XXVIII, 19-42.

    The poets are in the ninth
    chasm of the eighth circle, that of the Sowers of
    Discord, whose punishment is to be mutilated.
    Mahomet shows his entrails to Dante and Virgil
    while on the left stands his son Ali, his head cleft
    from chin to forelock.

    Several famous (and not-so-famous) artists have created their own illustrations of this scene. In each drawing, Mohammed is the one with his torso slit open.
    http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/dantes_inferno/

  51. Simon Thong Says:

    Moses, being a prophet, was JUST a prophet, being just a PERSON. He is dead and “gone to Heaven”. How could he have gone to Hell? It was not his function.

    Jesus is categorically different: “God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds…” Hebrews 1.1ff.

  52. Simon Thong Says:

    I think that it’s crude and unnecessary to portray founders of rival religions in such a way.

  53. syabas Says:

    Mohammed said, “I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers are women.”
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Women/in-hell.html

    Loop`s mother/sisters have a grand time

  54. vanto Says:

    Vatican: Koran encourages ‘killing Christians’ AKI

    Vatican City, 22 Oct. (AKI) – The Koran is a text that encourages Islam to impose itself with force and permits the killing of Christians, said Lebanon’s Catholic Patriarch of Antioch Archbishop Raboula Beylouni, addressing a Vatican meeting of Middle East bishops.

    “The Koran gives Muslims the right to judge Christians and kill them with Jihad,” he said. “It gives orders to impose religion with force, with the sword. For this reason, Muslims don’t recognise the freedom of religion among themselves or others.”
    http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=3.1.1142668038

  55. hutchrun Says:

    This week, Jewish Italian MP Fiamma Nirenstein was reconfirmed in Italy as Vice President of the Foreign Affairs Committee. Nirenstein was also appointed by Italian Foreign Minister Frattini to be an official consultant on Israel and the international Jewish communities.

    This week, she commented about the Christian leaders who have condemned Israel and have accused it of causing Christians to flee:

    She pointed out that “Islam does not like Eastern Christians: it has forced them to flee and now they account for only 6% of the population in the Mideast”
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/140216

  56. hutchrun Says:

    “..the only country where the number of Christians has grown is Israel, where 163,000 Christians live today, a number which is expected to grow to 187,000 by the year 2020. “In Muslim countries, on the other hand, Christians are on the wane, but the 50 churches present in the Holy Land seem not to notice. They prefer to dump on Israel, where they enjoy full freedom of worship and expression,” said Nirenstein.
    ***************

    Malaysia`s Wong Chun Wai [WCW-waste carrier wai] of the MCA`s Star newspaper has been selling a lie by repeating hte reverse. Pali weepers like Anil Netto sell the same waste carrier wai dirt.

  57. kesava Says:

    Islamic extremists have started openly calling for the destruction of a controversial Muslim sect in a major escalation of sectarian conflict within British Islam, an investigation by The Independent has revealed.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hardliners-call-for-deaths-of-surrey-muslims-2112268.html

    How long before it`s sunnis destroy sufis.

  58. kesava Says:

    Islam and The Blackmailers’ Paradox

    “the rational is forced to behave irrationally by definition, in order to achieve maximum results in the face of the situation that has evolved”
    http://shrinkwrapped.blogs.com/blog/2010/09/islam-and-the-blackmailers-paradox.html

  59. harrumph Says:

    Meanwhile, the Catholic Church has apparently decided that the few Christians who have not been driven out of this region would be better off under Islamic rule than living with Israeli Jews.

    “The Holy Scriptures cannot be used to justify the return of Jews to Israel and the displacement of the Palestinians, to justify the occupation by Israel of Palestinian lands,” Monsignor Cyril Salim Bustros, Greek Melkite archbishop of Our Lady of the Annunciation in Boston, Massachusetts, and president of the “Commission for the Message,” said at Saturday’s Vatican press conference.

    “We Christians cannot speak of the ‘promised land’ as an exclusive right for a privileged Jewish people. This promise was nullified by Christ. There is no longer a chosen people – all men and women of all countries have become the chosen people.
    http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?ID=192474&R=R1&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

  60. harrumph Says:

    That’s pretty funny given that the only country in the Middle East whose Christian population has increased over the last 100 years is… you guessed it: Israel.

  61. loop Says:

    “I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers are women.”

    Many thank for the reminder.Just to tell you we Muslim aware of that so we always perform dhua everytime after pray five time a day and ask for forgiveness and mercifulness from Allah swt to avoid myself, our brothers and sisters from the Hellfire.Anyway, compare to you if you are not Muslim I have a good chances more than you. Btw,just to be fair I think maybe if regarding Zack T Moses too now was like God according to“Exodus 7:1, Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh..” so you have many more chanches now I guess so don worry now, have a rest in peace since not only Jesus but Moses too can make atonement for your sin.”Your Zack T has really found a very strong foundation towards yr believe now!
    Moreover syabas, I would like to tell you that if like the statement made by Zack T you are now “son of god” too.Then let see now what bible said about Son of God now:

    “…Adam, which was the son of God.”(Luke 3:38)
    “That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair… And when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them…” (Genesis 6: 2,4)
    “…Israel is My son, even My firstborn:” (Exodus 4:22)
    “…for I (God) am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.” (Jeremiah 31:9)
    “…the Lord hath said unto me (David): ‘Thou art My son: this day have I begotten thee.” (Psalms 2:7)
    “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 18:14)

    See syabas you Including , me, Nasaei, Scott, Simon, Ron, Robert… are ‘son of god’…syabas.. opps i mean congratulation

  62. loop Says:

    “Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only” vs “MY KINGDOM is not of this world” (?)

    Jesus was weak..That mighty Messenger of God went after the Jews like a hen after her chickens, but they turned on him like vultures to tear him into pieces. Not satisfied with their relentless assaults and harassment and the eventual attempt on his life; they charged his mother for having ill-begotten him in sin.

    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I (Jesus) have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gatheretb her chickens under her wings, but ye would not let me!
    (HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 23:37

    But Simon Thong came to correct Zack T that Jesus was at a different category.
    Epilogue-Just to add to Simon Thong statement that you should be grateful to Muhummed(pbuh) because at the present moment a billion Muslims throughout the world accept the Immaculate Conception of Jesus (pbuh) on the authority of Muhummed (pbuh) alone. Jesus (pbuh), his mother Mary and the whole Christian world can never thank Al-AMIN — the Spirit of Truth, enough.

  63. Zack T Says:

    Haha… THat’s where you don’t know what it means to be call A “son of God’… as opposed to being THE “Son of God”.

    Jesus was “THE Son of God”.. specific and particularly and uniquely THE Son of God; not forgotten the only begotten and such.

    In case someone points it out.. Luke 3:38, loop quoted, “…Adam, which was the son of God.” was from a genealogy.. that goes something like “loop, the son of Nasaei, the son of Nase, the son of Muhammad, etc.”

    In Christianity, we have no problem with God having ‘sons’, unlike the Quran that says Allah has no sons because he does not have any consort. (Wasn’t even addressing the Christian’s biblical beliefs regarding the Sonship of Christ… and the possibility of us becoming part of the sonship with God.)

    “Sons of God” or “son of God” (emphasis on small letter ‘s’; not the same as “The Son of God”) means a creation that was created directly by God’s hand.

    Adam was a direct creation of God’s hands… So was Eve. So were the angels; angels don’t give birth nor do they marry or are given in marriage.
    So, nothing wrong with there being other ‘sons of God’… but there is only one “Son” and that is THE Son of God, Jesus Christ, who, in the beginning, was with God and was God (John 1:1); meaning Jesus existed before the world came into being and not only that, in that same chapter (John 1), it describes Jesus as the one who created us all.

    Now, back to Moses… notice loop misrepresented my argument by saying that Moses can atone for our sins too.

    My quoted verse was very clear…

    Exodus 32:30-32,
    The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; PERHAPS I can make atonement for your sin.
    So Moses went back to the LORD and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

    and I wrote very clearly “[In other words, Moses was WILLING to die for the sin of God’s people]”.

    So, don’t try to misrepresent me or misinterpret my arguments, loop; and I hope not deliberately; cause that would imply deception on your part.

    Back to us being sons of God…

    Now that I established “Sons of God” refer to those created directly by God’s own hands… that means those born naturally in this world are considered “sons of Adam”…. We’re not “sons of God” because God did not create us directly with His hands.

    However, when we believe in Christ, repent of our sins and surrender our lives to Him, Christ not only forgives us of our sins, but calls us to be heirs along with Him in His kingdom (We are made kings and priests in God’s kingdom.) We can become “sons of God”; so-to-speak, we become the ‘adopted’ sons of God.
    That’s why Jesus talked to Nicodemus about how a man can’t enter the kingdom unless he is born again; born of water (physical birth) and spirit (spiritual birth).

    We are born into this world, sons of Adam. But we can become sons of God, when we are spiritually born, through the Holy Spirit.

    And I pray for loop and all non-believers of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior, will see that and come to seek God and seek to become His children… that they may enter His kingdom and not be left out of it.

  64. Zack T Says:

    Loop,

    the whole Christian world can never thank Al-AMIN — the Spirit of Truth, enough. ~loop

    Wow.. I still can't believe he's trying to rely on the title 'Spirit of Truth'…

    loop.. I wanna try asking you, as a Muslim, what you believe about Muhammad..

    1 – Is Muhammad infallable? As in whatever he says, it's true and none of them are wrong.

    2 – Has Muhammad ever claimed to be the 'Spirit of Truth'? Or ever say "I am the Spirit of Truth"?

    Two simple questions about Muhammad…
    Not gonna bother with your other silly statements about Mary, or Jesus, or whatever..

  65. Simon Thong Says:

    loop Says:
    October 24, 10 at 4:31 pm
    But Simon Thong came to correct Zack T that Jesus was at a different category.

    That was meant for you LOOP and NASSAEI. Not for Zak T.

    loop Says:
    October 24, 10 at 4:31 pm

    Epilogue-Just to add to Simon Thong statement that you should be grateful to Muhummed(pbuh) because at the present moment a billion Muslims throughout the world accept the Immaculate Conception of Jesus (pbuh) on the authority of Muhummed (pbuh) alone. Jesus (pbuh), his mother Mary and the whole Christian world can never thank Al-AMIN — the Spirit of Truth, enough.

    No, we are NOT grateful for this. It matters not one bit and is wasted when you cannot see that it means that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity.

  66. loop Says:

    ‘1 – Is Muhammad infallable? As in whatever he says, it’s true and none of them are wrong.’

    Not to bias I quote these great people said about Muhammad pbuh:

    Lamartine, Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77:

    “If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls… the forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unit of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

    “Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?”

    Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay, History of the Saracen Empire, London, 1870, p. 54:

    “It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved, after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Quran…The Mahometans[1] have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. ‘I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God’, is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion.”

    Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92:

    “He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope’s pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports.”

    Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4:

    “It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.”

    W. Montgomery, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52:

    “His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.”

    James A. Michener, ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion’ in Reader’s Digest (American Edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70:

    “Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband.

    “Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God’s word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded ‘Read’. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: “There is one God.”

    “In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God’s personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, ‘An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human-being.’

    “At Muhammad’s own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: ‘If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever.’”

    Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc. 1978, p. 33:

    “My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level.”

  67. Zack T Says:

    To loop,

    I find it rather funny… that, being a rather simple and very straight forward question…. loop quoted and quoted all sorts of quotes from numerous people…………

    but fails to answer the question…

    Was Muhammad infallable; as in whatever he said, it is the truth and it is definitely never wrong? even if he was to say, hell is inhabited by mostly women due to their lack of intelligence or religious commitment.. it must be true because he said it.

    simple… straightforward…. yet loop fails to answer.. Not even a yes or no…

  68. Zack T Says:

    And not to be accused of avoiding loop’s argument…

    here’s a thought… does majority opinion make something true or right?

    It is a growing majority opinion that homosexuality is not wrong and unnatural… will loop change his stance then?

    Opinions of modern day scholars or authors or whoever high-profiled people make no difference regarding the right-ness of someone/something… especially regarding religions that have a particular source of authority; i.e. Quran/Hadiths, Bible.

  69. Scott Thong Says:

    Epilogue-Just to add to Simon Thong statement that you should be grateful to Muhummed(pbuh) because at the present moment a billion Muslims throughout the world accept the Immaculate Conception of Jesus (pbuh) on the authority of Muhummed (pbuh) alone. Jesus (pbuh), his mother Mary and the whole Christian world can never thank Al-AMIN — the Spirit of Truth, enough. – loop

    This is always a huge misconception among Muslims, including Ahmad Badr Al Din Hassoun – take note, Nasaei! (Because loop surely won’t)

    When Muslims say things like “Oh Islam holds Mary and Jesus in very high regard, Mary was a noble woman and Jesus was a sinless prophet, etc etc” they think they are complimenting Christians.

    However, as long as Muslims reject that Jesus is more than a mere human prophet, it is still condescending towards Christians.

    Imagine if someone were to say to a Muslim “Oh Mohammad was a great leader, an upstanding moral man, an inspiring teacher” – but also says “…And he was not a prophet of any sort”, would you feel complimented or insulted? Grateful or offended?

  70. Scott Thong Says:

    Read the entirety of what loop posted. None of it says that Mohammad was perfect, sinless or infallible.

    You can make your own conclusion from there as to what loop believes!

  71. Simon Thong Says:

    The pseudonym you pick for yourself may be a better refelction of who you are; in this case, as I have maintained from some time back, loop is caught in his own loop…round and round he goes, confused.

  72. Zack T Says:

    I’ll still wait patiently for loop to actually answer my question..

    but I do notice that he has completely left behind (avoided?) the issue of Deut 18 prophet like Moses.
    I placed one point after another, scriptural support after another against Muhammad and for Christ… then he just went on a tangent about ‘sons of God’ and Moses being able to atone for sins and Jesus being weak (what? One of Allah’s mightiest messengers being weak??)…

    Guess maybe he has no case for Muhammad and against Christ? I believe so.

    But well.. he hasn’t been doing so well at responding to my arguments, reasoning, scriptural support, *proper* exegesis (me wonders if loop knows what that means) of the scriptural text, or showing any truth that I can’t challenge and prove to be incorrect….
    Wow… some ‘Spirit of Truth’ you have there, loop.

    Hopefully you’ll actually answer the questions, loop. It’s really great chatting with you and really great that you’ve not done a disappearing act…. yet.

  73. rotfl Says:

    Muhammad was in **** and loop is thankfull, he`s still there waiting for loop`s momi and sissy.

  74. rotfl Says:

    Al-Qaida plot to blow up Bologna church fresco
    http://www.armyofgod.com/Mohameddemons.html

    Not succesfull………again

  75. rotfl Says:

    Possessed Women, demon, Women in hell, Exorcism, woman can’t witness, Value of donkey horse & dog

  76. loop Says:

    Sorry Zack T,take some time to be back. I’m very much looking forward when read that you patiently waiting for my answer eventhough I cannot answer even your simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ question.Sorry again,but I regret to say that due to your question was not relevant too.Look on your reply here:'(what? One of Allah’s mightiest messengers being weak??)…come to my head too :what?God send the messenger not infallible??

    I paste on October 24, 10 at 11:29 pm, what famous writers, thinkers, poets, philosophers, clergy and humanitarians have said about about Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him. You have read the recordings of those who knew him and knew of him and what others have said about him without prejudiced and doubted toward Muhammad pbuh

    ‘does majority opinion make something true or right?’-zack T

    Could those extraordinary, revolutionary and amazing statements, all about this one man, really be true? What if this is true?

    Regarding ‘Jesus was weak’ that according to Matthew 23:37.But me Muslim always said he is a prophet but not God.So it is not a question of ‘weak’ but it is a matter of our ‘believe’ here.Muslims have no problem with Jesus not liket you and the others commentetors were so prejudiced attacking Islam although Muhammad is deeply loved, revered and emulated by Muslims as God’s final messenger, but NOT the object of worship for Muslims.

    ‘Is Muhammad infallable?’-Zack T.

    His names: When he was born, his grandfather, Abdul Mutalib, gave him the name Muhammad. And it means “praised one” or “praising one.” He was later called “As-Saddiq” (the Truthful) by all of those who knew of his truthful and honest nature. He always said only the truth. He was also called “Al-Amin” (the Trustworthy) due to his integrity and always upholding any trust given to him. When the tribes were battling against each other, both sides would entrust him with their possessions during the fighting, even if it might be against some of his own tribesmen, because they knew he would always uphold any trust given to him. All of his names indicated the very nature of a man who was praised for his honesty, integrity and trustworthiness. He was also well known for advocating the reconciliation of kinship and relationships. He ordered his followers to always honor the “ties of the wombs” (siblings and other close relatives).

    This fits right in with the prophecy mentioned in the Bible in the Book of John in chapters 14 and 16, as the coming of a prophet known as the “Spirit of Truth” or “Comforter” or “Advocate.”

    So, the question now is, “What do you say about Muhammad?”

    You be the judge.

  77. Simon Thong Says:

    John 14-16. Nothing you have said, loop, fits. That’s just grasping at straws. Stop wasting your brain cells on a hopeless case.

  78. Zack T Says:

    loop,

    I’m glad you look forward to meeting my challenges (though not successfully so far) and trying to challenge me as well.

    The reason why I asked those two questions (which you say is not relevant) is because you weren’t up to challenge to challenging the bible, its history and what it is recorded in it; so I thought to which the topic to something you would be more familiar with (should be).

    Look on your reply here:’(what? One of Allah’s mightiest messengers being weak??)…come to my head too :what?God send the messenger not infallible?? ~loop

    First of all… it was not me who stated Jesus was weak or holding to the statement that Jesus was “one of the mightiest messengers of Allah”.
    So it is not me who has an issue with fallible prophets.

    But, based on that statement, can I assume that you implicitly believe Muhammad was not infallible then? by your expressing the surprise/shock of the idea that Allah sends infallible messengers?

    If that is indeed your stance, then how can Muhammad, being not infallible, be the Spirit of Truth? Or are you saying Muhammad was a fallible Spirit of Truth?

    Or are you gonna say that you believe Muhammad was infallible, and therefore you hold him to a position of never being wrong and always being right; hence better suited to being the “Spirit of Truth”?

    Regarding ‘Jesus was weak’ that according to Matthew 23:37 ~loop

    Ok.. I’m gonna assume your reason for stating “Jesus was weak” is in response to our doctrine that Jesus is God. If He is God, then He would be all-powerful.

    Now… what I find a problem with taht argument is that you’re implicitly saying that it is alright for God to enforce His will against a man’s will.. in other words, even though man doesn’t want to love God, God can forcefully change/’reprogramme’ his heart to love Him instead.

    For Allah, as far as I understand the Quran, etc, has no problem doing whatever he pleases.. it depends on his mood whether a man is saved or is damned… even if that man was a devout Muslim.

    For our God (Father, Son, Spirit), He is truly loving and will never force anyone to do what they do not want to do; e.g. love God, or believe in Him. Through the Spirit, He may work in a man’s heart to make him susceptible to God’s word and His gospel, but ultimately, it is man’s decision to repent and turn back to God.
    Hence, why Jesus in that passage longs to gather Israel and God’s people like a hen gathers its chicks.

    Tell me, would a child like it if someone he/she doesn’t like (or even hate) suddenly holds/embraces him/her tightly, against his/her will?

    ‘does majority opinion make something true or right?’-zack T

    Could those extraordinary, revolutionary and amazing statements, all about this one man, really be true? What if this is true? ~loop

    here’s the thing, loop… Just as much as you can quote whoever’s name in support of Muhammad, I can do the same… with both Muslim and non-Muslim names/people.
    So now it’s a battle of who has the most names, is it?

    How about I quoted the countless sayings of people throughout the centuries that say Jesus was God? Would that matter to you?
    How about the countless quotes of people who say Joseph Smith was the true last prophet? Would that matter to you?

    No… it doesn’t matter what people thought of Muhammad… what matters is, what was Muhammad’s message and how did he deliver it?
    And that would mean you need to turn to the Quran (and the hadiths) to prove his authenticity as the prophet of God.

    And the very fact that there’s a doctrine of abrogation shows that Muhammad changes his message… depending on circumstances he encounters.

    Now, about Muhammad being ‘Truthful’ and ‘Trustworthy’ or even ‘Spirit of Truth’ is rather odd, I find… because I quoted a number of places where Muhammad allowed lying and maybe even condoned it.
    I don’t know what kind of “Spirit of Truth” or ‘Truthworthy’ man or ‘truthful’ man allows people to lie for any reason.

  79. Zack T Says:

    Now.. John 14 & 16.. since YOU are the one appealing to this two chapters, it can be assumed that you have accepted at least this two chapters in John to be true and accurate and not corrupted…
    as put forward by our friend, Simon, Muhammad fulfills nothing in that two chapters…
    I’m willing to go in and see how that is so…
    (although we actually have already, but I’ll repeat them, hopefuly you’ll actually acknowledge them and not just push them aside as corrupted and manipulated text, cause then, how do you know which is and which isn’t manipulated/corrupted? Or do you just pick and chooose which verses you like and which you don’t?)

    John 14:16 [ESV], “And I [Jesus] will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to BE with you FOREVER.”
    (Muhammad died…. of poison…. centuries ago… unless you have a zombie Muhammad somewhere that I’m not aware of, he isn’t with you ‘forever’)

    John 14:17 [ESV] (the very next verse), “even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because [the world] NEITHER SEES him nor knows him. You know him for he dwells with you and WILL BE IN YOU.”

    (Do you, loop, solemnly believe that Muhammad will BE IN YOU forever, and that you and the world have NEVER SEEN him, nor known him?

    Quote from Scott, “I have Muhammad in me!”)

    John 14:26 [ESV], “But the Helper, THE HOLY SPIRIT, whom the Father will SEND IN MY [JESUS’S] NAME…”
    (loop, do you believe Muhammad was sent in Jesus’s name?
    Better yet… do you believe Muhammad is the Holy Spirit?)

    John 16:8-9 [ESV], “And when [the Helper] comes, he will CONVICT the WORLD concerning SIN…: concerning sin, because they do NOT BELIEVE IN ME [JESUS]…”
    (Do you believe it is a sin to not believe in Jesus and that this sin is what Muhammad came to convict the world of?)

    John 16:13-15 [ESV],
    “When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY… He WILL GLORIFY ME [JESUS], for he will TAKE WHAT IS MINE and DECLARE it TO YOU. All that the Father has is mine [JESUS’S]; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.”

    (Loop, did Muhammad glorify Jesus? Was his message Jesus’ or from God’s? If his message was from God, here is Jesus saying what is God’s is His and Muhammad will take what is Jesus’ and declare that to you.
    Doesn’t that sound like equating Jesus with God?)

    So, loop… after going through John 14 and John 16… we find verses where Muhammad CLEARLY does not fit… (and we need only one false prophecy to prove something is not of God’s)
    You appealed to this two chapters, and I have shown you the evidence against your Muhammad with those two chapters. You can’t deny the two chapters now, since you are the one that appealed to them.
    You can’t pick what you want and ignore the ones you don’t. That’s not being honest and is rather deceptive, which is perfectly fine with Muhammad who allowed you to lie for your faith.

    Now, since you appeal to this two chapters, it should mean you accept at least this two chapters to be true and uncorrupted.
    Will you then agree with these verses?

    John 14:2 – In the Father’s house there are many rooms, and Jesus is the one who will be preparing the rooms for us. Does the guest of the house prepare the rooms for other guests, or does the host of the house do so?

    John 14:6 [ESV], Jesus says, “I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life. No one comes to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME.”
    (loop, do you believe that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus; i.e. the only way to reach God is through Jesus?)

    John 14:13-14 – loop, do you believe that if you asked/prayed God/Jesus in Jesus’ name, then Jesus will answer your prayers?

    John 14:15 – loop, do you love Jesus and so you keep JESUS’S COMMANDMENTS?

    John 14:23 – loop, do you love Jesus and so keep Jesus’ word.. so that the Father will love you too and have both the Father and Jesus come to you and make their home with you?

    John 16:15 – loop, do you believe that all that is the Father is Jesus’?

    Loop, if you have answered ‘no’ to any of the above questions… then you have proven to yourself that you do not believe Muhammad is the ‘Spirit of Truth’ that Jesus talked about.. by appealing to John 14 and 16.

  80. Zack T Says:

    So, the question now is, “What do you say about Muhammad?”

    You be the judge. ~loop

    I find this final statement by loop to be rather awkward… for loop.

    Here, I have shown over and over how Muhammad has nothing to do with the God of the bible, the God that Jesus served and spoken about throughout His ministry on earth… nor was Muhammad the ‘Spirit of Truth’, ‘Comforter’, ‘Helper’ that Jesus spoken of in John 14, 16..

    So… who, here, is still willing to conclude otherwise?

    Since Muhammad is not the spirit of truth spoken of, therefore the Quran is false to say so… and Muhammad is not from the same God that Jesus served and therefore, loop, you have better repent and turn away from the false teachings and seek the true God… and I submit to you, that is the God found in the bible; not the Quran

  81. loop Says:

    “.. even if he was to say, hell is inhabited by mostly women due to their lack of intelligence or religious commitment.. it must be true because he said it.”

    You embarrasing yourself with the quote.Never mind then,there’s still plenty of room in hell if you wish to be in there .

    Islam is a religion that holds women in high regard . Long ago, when baby boys were born, they brought great joy to the family. but the girls were hated so much that they were buried alive. And Islam always been against this irrational discrimination against girls and female infanticide

    The Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wasallam, said: “Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every Muslim (male and female).” Men and women both have the capacity for learning and understanding. Since it is also their obligation to promote good behavior and condemn bad behavior in all spheres of life, Muslim women must acquire the appropriate education to perform this duty in accordance with their own natural talents and interests.

    While maintenance of their homes, providing support to the husband and bearing, raising and teaching children are among the first and very highly regarded roles for a woman, if she has the skills to work outside the home for the good of the community, she may do so. However, this is allowed only as long as her family obligations are met and as long as she complies with the Islamic code of dress and conduct, with no intermingling with men in the workplace.

    Islam recognizes and fosters the natural differences between men and women despite their equality. Some types of work are more suitable for men and other types for women. This differentiation in no way diminishes the effort or benefit of one gender over the other. God will reward both genders equally for the value of their work, though it may not necessarily be within the same sphere of activity.

    The two great roles a woman plays in life are that of a wife and a mother. The Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, once said to a group of Companions, may Allaah be pleased with them: “The best among you are those who are the best to their wives.” This shows that Islam highly encourages treating the wives well. They should be shown love, respect and care. To foster the love and security that comes with marriage, Muslim wives have various rights. The first of the wife’s rights is to receive dowry, a gift from the husband, which is part of the marriage contract and required for the legality of the marriage.

    The second right of a wife is maintenance. Despite any wealth she may have, her husband is obligated to provide her with food, shelter and clothing. He is not forced, however, to spend beyond his capability and his wife is not entitled to make unreasonable demands.

    Concerning motherhood, the Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wasallam, said: “Heaven lies under the feet of mothers.” This implies that the success of a society can be traced to the mothers who raised it. The first and greatest influence on a person comes from the sense of security, affection and training received from the mother. Therefore, a woman having children must be educated and conscientious in order to be a skillful parent.

    A man came to the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wasallam, and asked: “Who among my kinfolk is worthy of my good companionship?” The Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, replied: “Your mother” three times before saying: “Your father.” This indicates the impact that a mother has in a person’s life.

    So women are highly honored in this great religion.

  82. Zack T Says:

    Zack, “.. even if he was to say, hell is inhabited by mostly women due to their lack of intelligence or religious commitment.. it must be true because he said it.”

    You embarrasing yourself with the quote.Never mind then,there’s still plenty of room in hell if you wish to be in there . ~loop

    WOw.. I’m so embarrassed by that quote of mine…. How could I be so silly!

    Must have been because of what Muhammad said: i.e. the Hadiths!

    Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Book 2, Number 29 – majority of the dwellers in Hell are women, because they were ungrateful
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.029

    Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Book 6, Number 301 – majority of Hell’s dwellers are women because they were ungrateful and deficient in intelligence and religion and can lead sensible men astray… And the proof of their deficiency is that law that the evidence of two women is equal to the witness of one man and that they can’t pray and fast during their periods.
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/006.sbt.html#001.006.301

    Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, Book 18, Number 161 – Muhammad saw most inhabitants in Hell were women, not because they were ungrateful to Allah, but ungrateful to men.
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/018.sbt.html#002.018.161

    Sahih Muslim, Vol. 7, Book 62, Number 124 – The Prophet saw majority of those entering Hell were women.
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.124

    Wow… how embarrassing of me!! D=

  83. Jesus H. Christ Says:

    It saddens me to even have to mention this, but Muhammad don’t know *******. In fact, he wasn’t even a *******; just some ****-o ****** who tried to usurp my glory and honor.

  84. Zack T Says:

    I’m confused, Jesus H. Christ.

    In another blog, you commented that Jesus is only the Father’s Son… and not God…

    Yet here you talking about Jesus’ glory and honor… No prophet of God has ever claimed to have his own ‘glory and honor’… and thus, you have only contradicted your own belief that Jesus was not God.

    May YHWH reveal to you the truth and set you free from the deception that you believe in.

  85. Simon Thong Says:

    I’m not confused. He may have a split personality, and forgets which one of himSELVES last thought or said. Maybe he is a megalomaniac. Definitely, he is just some lame-o poseur who triee to usurp the glory, honour and name of Jesus Christ..

  86. loop Says:

    ‘WOw.. I’m so embarrassed by that quote of mine…. How could I be so silly!’-zack T

    Not to condescending towards Christians, the Quran has instructed Muslims to say the truth even if those who are very close to them do not like it : “Whenever you speak, speak justly, even if a near relative is concerned” (6:152)
    Like I said Islam is a religion that holds women in high regard and really the Islamic conception of women is radically different from the Christian one.First, let’s see the women in Islam according to Quran:

    “For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah’s praise– For them all has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward” (33:35).

    “The believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil, they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His Mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise” (9:71).
    “And their Lord answered them: Truly I will never cause to be lost the work of any of you, Be you a male or female, you are members one of another” (3:195).

    “Whoever works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof, and whoever works a righteous deed -whether man or woman- and is a believer- such will enter the Garden of bliss” (40:40).

    “Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily to him/her we will give a new life that is good and pure, and we will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions” (16:97).

    Now let’s here the tone of women in christian eye’s.Again and again all women are denigrated because of the image of Eve the temptress, thanks to the Genesis account. To sum up, the Christian like Judeo conception of women has been poisoned by the belief in the sinful nature of Eve and her female offspring. The severe tone of St. Paul in the New Testament:

    “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don’t permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner” (I Timothy 2:11-14).

    St. Tertullian was even more blunt than St. Paul, while he was talking to his ‘best beloved sisters’ in the faith, he said:
    “Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil’s gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die.”

    St. Augustine was faithful to the legacy of his predecessors, he wrote to a friend:
    “What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman……I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children.”

    Centuries later, St. Thomas Aquinas still considered women as defective:
    “As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence.”

    Finally, the renowned reformer Martin Luther could not see any benefit from a woman but bringing into the world as many children as possible regardless of any side effects:
    “If they become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that’s why they are there”

    So Zack T, a lot of work for you to syncronize the tones of christian prejudiced against the women in order to put the religion that holds women in high regard like Islam do!

  87. loop Says:

    Now.. John 14 & 16..
    Just like what my Quran said :I do not serve that which you serve, Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion. So you can hold to your stand BUT
    ‘Muhammad died…. of poison’.No, not poison.

    ‘BE with you FOREVER.’
    Yes, actually it is about spiritual that you should talk about now .The soul does not really die, but when it separates from the body at the time of the death of the body, the soul will get a taste of death. But our Comforter was to “ABIDE” continue, endure for ever.

  88. Scott Thong Says:

    Now let’s here the tone of women in christian eye’s.Again and again all women are denigrated because of the image of Eve the temptress, thanks to the Genesis account. – loop

    That’s funny, because the Bible says Eve will have childbearing pains due to her role in sin… Whereas the Islamic view is that because Hawa ‘touched a tree and made it bleed’ (????!!!) women’s punishment is monthly bleeding!

    Aiya, need to debate so much meh? Just look at how respected and empowered women are in Muslim nations vs secular or Christian ones!

    http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/01/when-it-comes-t.html

    And hey, why harp on about people 2000 years ago? How about some modern pronouncements?

    “If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it … whose fault is it, the cats’ or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred.” – Sheik Hilaly, blaming women for getting raped

    A Malaysian official is under fire after saying women who wear skimpy clothes invite rape. Nik Aziz Nik Mat, chief minister of Kelantan state, also accused women of being the main cause of “social ills and moral decadence”.

    But our Comforter was to “ABIDE” continue, endure for ever.

    ABIDEs forever inside my body!!!!

  89. Zack T Says:

    loop,

    ‘BE with you FOREVER.’
    Yes, actually it is about spiritual that you should talk about now .The soul does not really die, but when it separates from the body at the time of the death of the body, the soul will get a taste of death. But our Comforter was to “ABIDE” continue, endure for ever.

    And you still ignored the part where Jesus said the Helper/Comforter/Spirit of Truth will be with you and IN YOU.
    My, my, now Muhammad possesses Muslims?
    Ignore the elephant in front of your eyes all you want, it’s right there and not going anywhere.

    And why do you love so much to just take verses out of context, loop? (talking about 1 Timothy 2:11-14 which he quoted) Is there something you need to hide? Is there something in that context that would actually make your point pointless, as always?

    What kind of women was Timothy writing about?
    1 Timothy 2:9-10, “I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.”

    And why did you cut short the context of the verse? Why didn’t you include verse 15, which happens to be the last verse of that chapter anyways? It isn’t at all long… so why did you exclude it?

    1 Timothy 2:15, “But women will be saved through childbearing — if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.”

    Now, ALL the verses you cited regarding women……. includes men. So at MOST, you’re only showing there’s equal treatment to both men and women…. not the high regards of women. And this fair treatment is done by Allah, btw, not by men.

    Despite quoting these verses that showed equal treatment on both men and women (by Allah)… it fails to nullify or negate what I’ve quoted about women from the Hadiths.

    1 – That the majority of Hell dwellers are women (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Book 2, No. 29; Sahih Muslim, Vol. 7, Book 62, No. 124)
    2 – The reason for (1) is that women are religiously and intelligently deficient (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Book 6, No. 301) and that because they were ungrateful to men, not Allah (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, Book 18, No. 161); which technically means, if a woman have been faithful to Allah, etc, but does not love her abusive husband who feeds, cloths, and houses her, then she’ll go to hell for that. (Such high regards indeed)
    3 – In fact, Muhammad himself said he has not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than women (Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301, 2:24:541)
    4 – Muhammad said women are deficient in intelligence because of Allah’s mandate in QUran 2:282 to provide two women as witnesses, so in case one of the two forgets, the other will remind her… whereas no such is mandated of the ONE man witness.
    5 – Muhammad said women are deficient in religion because of their menstruation that prevents them from doing their religious deeds as frequent as the men.

    So.. with lots of verses quoted to supported the equal treatment by Allah on both good men and also good women… now we see that it is rather difficult for women to be good (due to their ‘deficiency’)… and thus, that’s why Muhammad made known the majority of the Hell dwellers are women.
    High regard, indeed.

    And that’s not even including all the other verses talking about women..

    Women, horse and houses are bad omens. (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, Book 62, No. 30,31,32; Sahih Muslim Vol. 26, No. 5528,5529)

    A mat in a house is better than a barren woman.(Sunaan Abu Dawud, 3.29.3911)

    A woman is a property; a righteous woman is the best property. (Sunaan ibn Majah, 3.1855)

    A woman can annul a man’s prayer… along with a dog and a donkey. (Sahih Muslims Vol. 4, No. 1039; Sahih Bukhari Vol. 1, Book 9, No. 490,493,498)

    The Prophet said, “After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women.” (Sahih Bukhari 7.62.33)

    and SOO MUCH MORE!! Too much to quote!

  90. Zack T Says:

    what my Quran said :I do not serve that which you serve, Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion. ~loop

    Your Quran also says:

    Ali – Quran 29:46
    And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (then mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury); BUT SAY, “We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is One…

    Ali – Quran 5:68
    68. Say: “O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Law the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.“…

    We as Christians, have no problem disagreeing with the Allah of the Quran…
    but YOU as a Muslim, have to agree with the God of the Bible; and subsequently, agree with us Christians.

    Why are you still ignoring this fact, loop? Please stop deceiving yourself! You’re doing yourself no good by denying the truth of the matter! This is a matter of eternity with God or forever away from God!

    I’ll give you the same choices I gave Nasaei, earlier in this thread, after establishing (through the Quran) that the Quran never testify to the corruption of the bible, but instead both the Quran and Muhammad had to rely on the authenticity of what was revealed to the Jews/Christians before the Quran!

    Make your choice.

    1 – Believe that the bible is corrupted and reject the Quran that says the bible is true and unchanged and reliable,

    2 – OR, believe that the bible is unchanged as the Quran says and reject the Quran because the bible is against what the Quran and Muhammad teach for Jesus Christ is our LORD and Savior who can save YOU from the flames of hell.

    3 – OR, prove that the bible was corrupted AFTER the time of Muhammad, which would still leave you with the Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament manuscripts, leaving you at a disadvantage even if you are able to prove the bible was corrupted AFTER Muhammad’s time.

  91. Adam Saleh Says:

    I think muhammad actually is a zoroastrian, and uthman rewrite muhammad as islam

  92. Chloe Vanwert Says:

    “There’s no one,” Alicia said. “Not really.”

  93. Inell Katowicz Says:

    My ass clenched. Anal? “Doesn’t that hurt?”

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