Why Christians Believe Jesus is God in Three Easy Bible Passages


1. Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. – Mark 12:29 (spoken by Jesus)

2. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. – Exodus 34:14 (spoken by God)

3. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. – Matthew 28:9

Now follow these points of logic according to those passages above:

1. There is only one Lord God.

2. No other ‘god’ shall be worshiped.

3. Jesus allows people to worship Him.

What can we conclude from the above three statements above? To borrow from C.S. Lewis:

A) Jesus is a fake, lying and pretending to be God.

B) Jesus really thinks He is God but isn’t, so He is crazy.

C) Jesus really is God.

Christians believe conclusion C.

Some people believe that Jesus is a good man or a prophet, but not God. But if so, how can they reconcile point of logic 3? If Jesus was not God, then what was this ‘good man, prophet, but not God’ doing going around actively encouraging people to think He was?

Surely a good man or a prophet would not intentionally mislead people – even into eternal damnation! Surely you do not get moral guidance from and look up to a nutter who thinks he is Napoleon.

Only conclusion C can be reconciled with any idea of Jesus as a good, sane person.

——————

Now let’s take it further than the blog post title.

Among those who believe in Jesus, there are generally three types:

I) Believe that Jesus = God as one person with no distinction at all (Oneness doctrine)

II) Believe that Jesus = not God at all (Unitarianism, Nontrinitarianism, Islam)

III) Believe that Jesus = God as one being, but also as different persons with distinctions (part of the Trinity)

Why do I agree with type III? Consider the dilemmas posed by these Bible passages respective to the types of belief:

I) “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Mark 13:32) and “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you” (John 17:1). If Jesus is the exact same person as the Father with no distinction, then why do they know different things, and why does Jesus speak to the Father as if speaking to a separate person? (Compare with the strangeness of: I said to me, “Oh me, please give respect to me so that I can give respect to me.”)

II) See the first three passages cited above along with the three points of logic. If Jesus is not in any way God, then why does He let people worship Him as God?

III) Both the dilemmas above are resolved.

And that is why Christians like me believe that Jesus is God in the Trinitarian sense.

——————

See also Why the Holy Spirit is Considered God (and So is Jesus) for more passages where Jesus allows worship of Him and The Christian Trinity in the Old Testament – God is I, Us and He for a specific Old Testament example.


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220 Responses to “Why Christians Believe Jesus is God in Three Easy Bible Passages”

  1. Truthsayer Says:

    Yes…

    But then again this nonsense was written by uneducated fools who probably believed that the earth was flat, and it has no relevance at all to the 21st Century.

    WAKE UP FOLKS..!

    Stop worrying about whether jesus is god – allah is god – or whoever is god…

    LOOK AROUND..!

    There isn’t any god…

    For Centuries religion and a belief in god, has been used by the ruling elite as a tool to control the general populace.

    And what makes it all so sad is that even now, religious zealots continue to brainwash and subjugate innocent humans everywhere on this “god”-forsaken planet in order to satisfy their own sense of self-importance and ego.

    What… You don’t agree..?

    Well just take a look at where the pope lives…

    Then compare it to how most of the world’s christians live..

    Same thing for every other religion.

    The leaders lead and the sheep follow.

    This entire world is divided and conquered by those that proclaim to have a handle on the truth – whether it be religious or political.

    I suggest that all of you start to use your intellects to question what these so-called ‘prophets’ speak of.

    Because until you do, you will be forever enslaved.

  2. mccann105 Says:

    i was baptised 3 times 1st was when i was 12 at one prepasterian chruch then later at methodhist klang….years later glad tiding klang..been a practising christian for 25 years….n another 25 years making my own discovery …just a note…u have to find it yrself …n jeus is not the only option…

  3. Scott Thong Says:

    i was baptised 3 times 1st was when i was 12 at one prepasterian chruch then later at methodhist klang….years later glad tiding klang..been a practising christian for 25 years….n another 25 years making my own discovery …just a note…u have to find it yrself …n jeus is not the only option… – mccann105

    That’s right, there are many other options apart from Jesus. Unfortunately, none of them can achieve the same result…

    There’s actually no requirement to be baptised multiple times. I am not aware of any denomination where you need to be re-baptised to join their denomination.

  4. Scott Thong Says:

    Yes…

    But then again this nonsense was written by uneducated fools who probably believed that the earth was flat, and it has no relevance at all to the 21st Century. – Truthsayer

    Uhh, actually, for many centuries it was only the religious who were educated and could read and write.

    And btw…

    Wikipedia: Myth of the Flat Earth – The Myth of the Flat Earth or Flat Earth mythology is the modern misconception that the prevailing cosmological view during the Middle Ages saw the Earth as flat, instead of spherical.

    What were you saying about uneducated fools again? 🙂

    For Centuries religion and a belief in god, has been used by the ruling elite as a tool to control the general populace.

    Thankfully, all this changed when enlightened atheism came and made the last century so much better for 100 million people. /sarc

    Well just take a look at where the pope lives…

    Then compare it to how most of the world’s christians live..

    Yeah, it is totally unjust how the leaders of various peoples have better standards of living. Look at where the President lives, then compare to how most Americans live – worse when the President is Obama and can blow tens of thousands dating in NYC, flying in pizza chefs and chilling at Martha’s Vineyard during a recession.

    Or look at how atheist Stalin lived, then compare to how most of his subjects died in gulags.

    I suggest that all of you start to use your intellects to question what these so-called ‘prophets’ speak of.

    Because until you do, you will be forever enslaved.

    A certain prophet said: Love your neighbor. Love your enemy. Share with the needy.

    What objections do you have against that?

  5. Adifferentview Says:

    When I was young, I learnt that when someone said, “Believe me”..you had better not. If another said, “I’m really telling the truth”..you had better be wary..Just as a drunk can say, “I’m not drunk” or an insane man, “I’m not crazy”…they are not to be believed.

    Truthsayer has a skewed version of life, reality and truth. “Know the Truth and it will set you free.” Truth hasn’t done that for him/her. My impression is that Truthsayer is enslaved by self-conceit. Scott Thong, at least, provides a much better view of our world..both extremes and in-between.

  6. flownovercountry Says:

    Brevity is the soul of wit, and therefore I am witless. You, dear sir, did a really tight and succinct explanation. Good work.

  7. Duncan Idaho Says:

    I concur with Adifferentview. Truthsayer’s comment – and name – are most pretentious. I pity him, for he has clearly either (a) never experienced the presence of the Lord in his lifetime, or (b) never had the wisdom to see the presence of God in his life. As such he clearly feels the need to attempt to sway others from their faith.

    To answer his question I say:

    1) I do not agree.

    2) The pope has little to no influence on my faith.

    3) Other Christians have little to no influence on my faith.

    4) Other religions have little to no influence on my faith.

    5) The broad brush with which you paint people of all faiths is a double-edged sword. The same can be said for atheists. It is the natural condition of man to lead or be lead. Would you have that no one takes a role-model? No one seeks the wisdom of another? To label everyone that does not adhere to your FAITH in the BELIEF that there is no God as ‘sheep’ is naive. Without leaders humankind would have never progressed beyond it’s fragile beginnings, for all would be anarchy.

    6) While there is some truth to this statement, if you were to make an honest assessment you would see that the borders of this world are generally defined by culture, ethnicity, ancestry, faith, location, etc. All wolves are not of the same pack, all apes are not of the same troop, all sheep are not of the same flock. It is the natural way.

    7) Do you require intellect to know that the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening? Do you intellectually analyze your love for your parents? Perhaps /you/ should apply your intellect to this: not all believers are blind followers of organized religion. People have witnessed the hand of God in their lives, felt His love, communicated with Him. Consider the possibility that YOU are the sheep, blindly following the words of another atheist who has told you that man may have no faith without his being forced so by another. Many of us have come to the Lord not by human influence but by His divine presence in our lives. I can still remember when Jesus revealed Himself to me. I didn’t need anyone to talk me into it.

    8) It is you who are enslaved. You are enslaved to your ego, which tells you that there can be no higher power than yourself. As such you will always be the slave of other men.
    Those who have faith in God above can be ruled by no man, as He is the King of Kings.

    I realize, of course, that your ego will probably not be allow this concept of faith to permeate your conscious mind, but perhaps it will reach your sub- or un-conscious self.

    You should know that no matter how elegant your prose, how clearly stated your argument, how intense your conviction, you will never convert a true believer to atheism. It is simply not an intellectual issue. Intellect is a temporary tool of the flesh, the soul eternal, and no language of man can ever hope to define or relate it.

    I leave you with this kōan:

    How is it that something can be made to exist from nothing?

  8. Duncan Idaho Says:

    I do not know why that smiley appeared in my post, but it was not intentional.

  9. Scott Thong Says:

    It’s WordPress’ fault. It interprets 8 and ) together as a smiley.

    I usually put it as 8.) to avoid that happening.

  10. Scott Thong Says:

    Allow me to add some examples of atheists/agnostic/skeptics/critics/polemics who eventually accepted Christianity based on logic and evidence:

    Christianity – The Faith of Famously Intellectual, Logical, Reasonable Thinkers

  11. Duncan Idaho Says:

    Thanks for the link Scott. I did not know this about C. S. Lewis. I found the Trilemma argument especially salient. You have just gained a new reader sir.

    Now I must to go to bed!

  12. GHT Says:

    “Everything in heaven and on earth is the voice of God. It overflows with the divine principles. it is the rhythmic movement of the arrangement for all existences, which is emitted from God’s great love (which is the true cross of great mercy and great strictness). It is the breath of the divine essence of God, therefore, everything is breathing”(atomic particles).

    God is truly living and in existence. If you are brought up as a Christian be very grateful that God has arranged your learning in this lifetime to know God from a Christian prospective. If you pray earnestly to Jesus, you may have your prayer answered and be given the encouragement to come closer to God and be good person. This is good for you. If you therefore believes that Jesus is God who is to say that you are wrong.

    The same goes for the Buddhist. Ever since your birth and before that, God the Father, have chosen the school for your spiritual development this time on earth. So be very grateful becaurse God has made

  13. GHT Says:

    “Everything in heaven and on earth is the voice of God. It overflows with the divine principles. it is the rhythmic movement of the arrangement for all existences, which is emitted from God’s great love (which is the true cross of great mercy and great strictness). It is the breath of the divine essence of God, therefore, everything is breathing”(atomic particles).

    God is truly living and in existence. If you are brought up as a Christian be very grateful that God has arranged your learning in this lifetime to know God from a Christian prospective. If you pray earnestly to Jesus, you may have your prayer answered and be given the encouragement to come closer to God and be better person. This will be good for you. If you therefore believes that Jesus is God who is to say that you are wrong.

    The same goes for the Buddhist. Ever since your birth and before that, God the Father, have chosen the school for your spiritual development this time on earth. So be very grateful because God has tailored made this arrangement for you.

    Should God the Father requires you to go through the lessons in life by providing your life journey through the religion of Islam or Hinduism, Taoism, Jewish or free thinker or mix religions or what have you, be very grateful as well. There are great diversity in this world, all permitted and provided by God the Creator. Can’t we still not see it? We don’t need to and beyond us to argue. Just accept them obediently and practice your religion earnestly to reach God and be one with Him. You would have achieved your true destiny finally. Even for those who we think maybe going in circles, let them be. They may be guided to the right direction one day. Some through great pain, tribulations and sufferings. These are all good for them before they are to reach God.

    When you have elevated yourself spiritually to be close to God and understand God, and finally to be guided by God not by man, you would have be one with Him. Then, you may understand all religion is but a school or vehicle. You do not need them once you know how to fly with God. In this, Jesus, Guatama, Moses, Nabi Mohammad and many beings that have reached their enlightenment are gods and if we pray earnestly to them in our time of needs they are ‘obliged’ to guide us in our spiritual development.

    But first of all, let us be brothers among men. May the Almighty God bless you.

  14. In the Quran: The doom of those who invented lies about Allah | Bright Ideas Says:

    […] Why Christians Believe Jesus is God in Three Easy Bible Passages … […]

  15. kamalg Says:

    but you did not prove that ‘jesus was going around’ asking people to believe that he was God because he denies he is God many times
    when the jews try to stone him because they acuse him of claiming to be God, he explains that it is a false accustation by likeing his Son of GodNess to what he references in the torah where it says a righteous man is a son of God, if he wanted people to think that he would not have responded by likening his claim to that of the torah which contains sons of God by the ton, none are the One God, Allah, Elah, ELohim, Y-H-V-H, al hayy al qayyum etc
    (i am a convert to islam, i know the bible well)
    please respond.
    peace

  16. Adifferentview Says:

    kamalg, you know the bible well but not well enough. Read. Read. Read. Not Islamic literature on the topic but what Christians write.

  17. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Christian, from the third century after Jesus death till were “hoaxed”, misleaded and cheated by the the irresponsible peoples including the Emperor Constatine at the Necaea Council! Many “invention” made by
    peoples. Corruption took place largely after the third century of he died. What Jesus actually taught is almost exactly what Islam believe, but today’c Christians are simply lost.. If Bible is not been tampered with.. then why are there SO MANY contradictions whic is impossible to reconcile ? Impossible. If there is something we calle “trinity” in the Bible.. no doubts it must be stated al least by one word in the Bible itself!

    God has sent many holy books to David, Moses, Jesus and HIs last prophet Muhammad to guide mankind. Why not Just come and buy things using the latest currency..since the the old currenciey were no longer valid.
    Come to Islam, the religion of the only and one God!

    I always wonder..and cannot imagine how “god” can be born and died” ?
    I wonder if Jesus created her mother ? (Mary)

  18. Adifferentview Says:

    We now see the REAL Nasaei Ahmad, not a seeker of truth, not a so-called openminded searcher, but a MISSIONARY of Islam.

  19. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I’m sorry “Adifferentview” if you see me as a ‘prosylitizer’. I didn’t mean so, we can’t do , we can’t care, we can’t help if you choose any religion of yours. We are free to be any believer of any faith. Pls do not think that I’m attacking any religion too. I’m just talking stgraight foward to the point, by the facts we have before us.

  20. Scott Thong Says:

    If Bible is not been tampered with.. then why are there SO MANY contradictions whic is impossible to reconcile ? Impossible. – Nasaei

    Now Nasaei, we’ve been through this before. Your ‘impossible’ is a simple ‘possible’ to any good Christian apologist.

    If there is something we calle “trinity” in the Bible.. no doubts it must be stated al least by one word in the Bible itself!

    I believe I have also gone through this with you before.

    The word ‘Trinity’ is not in the Bible, but it doesn’t need to be. It is merely a convenient term we use to summarize a doctrine.

    For example, I have no doubt you can accept the existence of such things as Holy Communion (breaking bread and sharing wine), the Rapture (all Christians will disappear from Earth suddenly) and ‘Creatio ex Nihilo’ (God created everything out of nothing) in Christianity.

    Yet none of these terms actually appear in the Bible. You can word-search for yourself and see.

    Does this mean that none of these doctrines, practises and beliefs are correct? Does this mean that God didn’t actually create everything from nothing, just because the term ‘Creatio ex Nihilo’ is not in the Bible?

    Of course not… The terms I mentioned are simply quick ways to describe something that is lengthily spoken of in the Bible.

    So it is also with ‘The Trinity’. Although this words does not appear in the Bible, the idea of it is put forward in many places.

    I can also give an Islamic comparison: What are the five most important duties of every Muslim? They are Shahada, Salat, Zakat, Sawm, and Hajj. Together, they are often known as ‘The Five Pillars of Islam’.

    So let me ask you… Where in the Quran does this term ‘Five Pillars of Islam’ appear? I have done a word-search for ‘pillar’ and ‘pillars’, and none of the three hits I get in the Quran are related to Shahada, Salat, Zakat, Sawm, and Hajj.

    So does this mean that ‘The Five Pillars of Islam’ is a hoax, a misleading, a cheating? Just because the exact term ‘The Five Pillars of Islam’ (أركان الإسلام) does not actually appear in the Quran?

    Of course not! It is a fundamental, crucial part of Islamic belief and practise! The term ‘Five Pillars of Islam’ is just a convenient phrase to quickly summarize this important principle!

    Now do you understand regarding the word Trinity not appearing in the Bible?

  21. Adifferentview Says:

    “Come to Islam, the religion of the only and one God!” Nasaei Ahmad. Your own words. They are your words. Muslim missionary..

    Don’t even understand what you wrote?

  22. Scott Thong Says:

    but you did not prove that ‘jesus was going around’ asking people to believe that he was God because he denies he is God many times
    when the jews try to stone him because they acuse him of claiming to be God, he explains that it is a false accustation by likeing his Son of GodNess to what he references in the torah where it says a righteous man is a son of God, if he wanted people to think that he would not have responded by likening his claim to that of the torah which contains sons of God by the ton, none are the One God, Allah, Elah, ELohim, Y-H-V-H, al hayy al qayyum etc
    (i am a convert to islam, i know the bible well)
    please respond.
    peace

    – kamalg

    Your quote needs the context. Which chapter and verse are you talking about?

    I think you probably mean John 10:30-39, where the Jews were set off by Jesus saying “I and the Father are one”. The Jews want to stone Him for claiming He is God, which is when Jesus quotes what I think you are talking about.

    But at the end, the Jews still try and stone Him, because He is still equating Himself with God!

    So your explanation does not hold.

    What other ‘many times’ do you think Jesus denies he is God? Instead, many times Jesus accepts worship, tells people that He is one with God, claims that those who see Him see God, says He can forgive sins (which only God can), and claims to be the Messiah (who is also God Himself according to the Messianic prophecies).

    Yes, there are many references to ‘sons of God’ in the Bible. Among other things, it can refer to righteous men or angels such as in Genesis 6. But there is only one actual Son of God who created and rules over all creation, as the Bible also states.

    I shall give you a fitting example from Wikipedia:

    In Greek, the term huios theou was applied to both,[4] but, while huios theou is used of Jesus three times in the New Testament, he is usually described as ho huios tou theou, not just “a son of God”, but “the son of God”.

    It is the difference between a noun and a proper noun, if your English is as good as your Bible knowledge!

  23. wido Says:

    Jesus is not my God in one simple step. Abrahamic and Occult faiths are founded on the ancient pagan theology of sacrifice. Jesus is a god of pagans.

  24. Scott Thong Says:

    That’s kind of funny, since ‘pagan’ is basically everyone who isn’t Judeo-Christian. So what, you don’t follow any religion at all?

    And I could argue that the ancient pagan theology of sacrifice was founded on the Abrahamic faith’s predecessor which stretches back to the first humans, according to the Bible.

    The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. – Genesis 3:21

  25. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Even today, there are many, many “pagans” around. Modern Neo-pagans.

  26. wido Says:

    The etymology of the derogatory use of “pagan” may be considered complex but the derogatory meaning is basically, “uncivilized”. Country dwellers (pagans) were considered “uncivilized” for their polytheism and resistance to conversion. Yet at the same time, monotheists incorporated the aboriginal religious belief of sacrifice theology that originated in pagan societies predating Abrahamic faiths. Thus, they are linked forever to pagan sacrifice theology. I consider myself spiritual and a seeker of the truth, which I do not see in any religion of man. I also look at biblical descriptions of burnt offerings where God is pleased by the smell of burning flesh to make me think I really don’t want to worship such a being.

  27. Scott Thong Says:

    Well, there are two ways to respond to this.

    1) As I mentioned previously, if the Biblical narrative is correct, then belief in YHWH and sacrifice of atonement predates all other religions, which may be considered a corruption of the original worship of YHWH. Of note are Genesis 3, where YHWH sacrifices animals (covering Adam and Eve in skins) to atone for the first humans’ first sin and Genesis 4, where the next generation of humans sacrifices ‘fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock’.

    2) The idea of ‘reclaiming and redeeming for God’, where various secular or nonChristian practices or customs are brought back to humanity’s original purpose, i.e. worship of YHWH. For example: the sex, drugs and devil worship of rock music has been reclaimed as worshipful Christian Rock, and the cross which used to be the symbol of humanity’s cruelty has been redeemed as the symbol of God’s unmerited forgiveness and grace.

    On God ‘pleased by the smell of burning flesh’, it is actually more of being pleased in the attitude behind the sacrifice, as can be seen in these passages:

    For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. – Hosea 6:6

    “I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies. Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them. Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps. But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream! – Amos 5:21-24

    In any case, ritual sacrifice ended with the ultimate and perfectly fulfilling sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which atones for all sins now and forevermore.

  28. wido Says:

    I will play the bible passage game once and only once. For every bible passage that may support an argument there is usually one that contradicts it. Read Leviticus, The Law of Burnt Offerings, where it talks about an aroma pleasing to God. Also, this is the law of sacrifice given by God. God tells David that Solomon will build the Temple. God knows sacrifice will be practiced in the Temple. If God disliked sacrifice so much then he would have had nothing to do with the Temple. Sacrifice was not only for the purpose of cleansing and redemption of sin. Great sacrifices were for the purpose of receiving blessings from God and making covenants with God. Many evangelicals have in fact tried to breed the perfect red bull for Jews to use as a sacrifice at a rebuilt Temple to fulfill bible prophecy. Sure, the belief of Jesus as a one-time sacrifice to pay for all sins and make a new covenant with God was probably more civilized than continual sacrifices of other religions going on 2,000 years ago. It is still based upon the aboriginal pagan theology of sacrifice. Your God is a pagan (uncivilized) god in the modern age. Belief in sacrifice theology is uncivilized and also akin to Satanist and Voodoo beliefs. Perhaps your God is Satan, the deceiver. He has done a good job and caused a lot of bloodshed in his name. Jesus + 12 disciples = 13 = witches coven.

  29. Adifferentview Says:

    wido, what a lot of bull(shit) you are capable of. Your last statement is not only offensive to many Christians, it is also clutching at straws..and meant simply to offend. If you were sacrificed, the stink would be so foul that we couldn’t remove it for a century! In no way have you offered any rebuttal to either (1) or (2) of Scott Thong’s explanation. You have merely stated your opinion, worthless in itself…

  30. Scott Thong Says:

    Well, if you’re firm on the idea that sacrifice theology is inherently barbaric, then there is little I can do to persuade you otherwise. I reckon it’s about as easy as selling a Muslim on the idea of God becoming incarnate – it is simply beyond consideration by definition.

    Nor should I deem to argue over whether or not the Biblical portrait of God is uncivilized, as we would begin by using two different, relativistic definitions of ‘civilized’. (As an example, would we agree on the following: Permissibility of homosexuality, justness of hell, capital punishment for murder?)

    I will also let your remarks regarding Satan, bloodshed and witches slide, as I feel they are merely intended to provoke me, therefore there is little point in preparing a reasonable and thought-out response.

    You misunderstand my intent in citing those passages where God is displeased with sacrifices – I quoted them to show that sacrifice means nothing without a correct heart and holy behaviour. Therefore, what God seeks behind sacrifices is the obedience associated with following the strict and painstaking sacrificial laws.

    You have explained at length what you feel is wrong with JudeoChristianity. Could you devote some time to explaining what your far better personal beliefs are?

  31. wido Says:

    It is only to show how primitive your belief is and to show parallels of different beliefs. I am glad to offend such belief systems. You don’t like it because it exposes the real foundation of your faith being based upon aboriginal sacrifice theology. I don’t consider you evil but I do consider sacrifice theology as evil. At least you know a damn good reason not to believe in your God.

  32. wido Says:

    Excuse me for being so provocative. I abhor all faiths tied to sacrifice theology. You forget your Abrahamic brother, Islam. Where extremists sacrifice themselves for a payoff of 72 virgins in suicide bombings. My personal belief is to keep an open critical mind in seeking the truth about things of the spirit. I have no plan like Obama does to remake our society. My children are ridiculed and belittled by fellow students and faculty for non-belief in Jesus. I constantly see televised sermons preaching hate toward non-believers. And you want me to be nice.

  33. Scott Thong Says:

    Firstly, you presume much in saying that the reason I dislike your provocation is because it forces me to acknowledge that it is true JudeoChristian sacrifice is based on non-monetheistic rites that predate Abrahamic belief.

    That is a form of Bare Assertion Fallacy – just because you say it is true, you also assume it to be true, without any other evidence or argument to back up your assertion. I can simply reject your assertion. Why not put some meat on your skeletal argument, and cite some information regarding why you say JudeoChristian belief is necessarily based on non-JudeoChristian predecessors instead of arising independently?

    Secondly, you are mistaken in assuming that just because sacrifice theology is imperfect by your standards, therefore we should not believe in a God who endorses it. Whether or not we should believe in something is based on evidence, not preference!

    For example, road accidents are a sad and gruesome occurence. But does that mean that we ‘should not’ believe in them? Should we reject the notion of gravity because we dislike the fact it precludes our ability to float in midair?

    Similarly, whether or not we think God should not be something bears little effect on what God actually is. What God is, He is, no matter what our opinion. If conclusive, irrefutable proof arises that the true god has filled heaven with herring-flavoured jello that we will wade in for all eternity, then I will not disbelieve it just because it ‘shouldn’t be that way’ – I would have to accept it, albeit unhappily!

    You could argue against a particular interpretation of what God is, but that should be based on reason rather than personal preference.

    And let’s see… Your children are harassed by certain people who are not me and whom I assume (from your description) are Christian. Therefore, you feel that you are justified in provoking me, a Christian whom you have never met.

    Pardon me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this the definition of bigotry – on your part? You assume that just because some people of a certain type or belief system were mean to your children, therefore all people of that type or belief system are similarly mean.

    Imagine if I were to take that attitude and insult every homosexual I met for what happened to Jesse William Dirkhising, or pick on everyday Muslims for what terrorists groups do every day. The ACLU would be on my case in seconds, and I’d have a new anti-hate law named after me.

    You claim that your children are ridiculed for not believing in Jesus, and that you constantly see televised sermons preaching hate. I’d like to know what country you live in – as in Europe and America, the trend is for insults against Christianity to be widespread and unprosecuted (what with freedom of speech and all), not the other way around. I’d also like to know what the televised sermons say that you define as ‘preaching hate’ (seeing as our definitions of other things also vary so greatly).

    In any case, if there really are Christians mocking those who do not share their faith, or if there really are preachers speaking hate, then those people are sinning in the eyes of God and any righteous Christian. I for one would condemn them for it, and apologize on their behalf for their wrongful behaviour. And I am also more understanding of your antagonism towards Christianity if these sort of ‘Christians’ are the only sort you have been exposed to.

    But look at me – in these few comments, have I once flung insults you? Even after you leveled several accusations at my beliefs that raise hackles?

    I make no apologies for what certain Muslims do. Christians do not accept Islam’s claims to God, Abraham or the prophethood of Mohammad. There is a reason the term ‘JudeoChristian’ is commonly used, but not ‘JudeoMuslim’ or ‘IslamoChristian’. Just because someone shows up one day and claims to be your long-lost brother, does not mean that you automatically accept that he really is.

    Finally, I must say that I am glad you do not aspire to be like Obama – one of him making a grand mess of the economy is more than enough already!

  34. wido Says:

    I have made no personal affront to you, only to your faith. To declare it as a personal attack on you is just your defense mechanism speaking with all the mumbo-jumbo analogies you have spilled out. You have altered provoking you to a higher status of insulting you. This is all a ploy to show how civil you are I guess. It is good that you are not like many of your Christian brethren that I have been exposed to. I only point out that sacrifice theology is “uncivilized” and that faiths founded on this belief or a god condoning it are uncivilized.

  35. Scott Thong Says:

    You accuse Christianity of being pagan, uncivilized, occultic, Satanic and evil. I am a Christian – therefore, you are accusing me of following pagan, uncivilized, occultic, Satanic and evil beliefs. How is this not a personal affront to me?

    And if you wish to disregard my explanations as to why your arguments were off the mark, fine then.

    I state my disagreement with you on the point that sacrifice theology is uncivilized, but this is a matter of personal taste and/or relative cultural influence. After all, the very definition of ‘civilized’ varies between different persons and cultures.

    Perhaps if you explained why you consider it uncivilized, we could have a proper discussion on the topic.

    But if you simply wish to state your opinion that it is uncivilized without wishing to it to be open to debate, that is your right and I will not stop you from commenting as much.

  36. wido Says:

    If I found an aboriginal civilization in the jungle that practiced sacrifice to feed the gods and I said this practice was uncivilized it does not mean that those people are evil. They are merely misguided. I accuse you and the majority of mankind of being misguided. If that is an insult so be it. Who is misguiding you?

    If a certain god is a spiritual being there never has and never would be a requirement to make compacts with him through sacrifice or maybe signing a contract in blood and saying, “Alakazam!” If a certain god is a carnal being then maybe he requires something of materialistic value as payment for a blessing.

    Civilizations and “civilized” people have practiced in their cultures many things we would consider uncivilized today but that they considered civilized. Orgies, cannibalism, pedophilia, etc. The communion of the last supper is philosophically of cannibalistic symbology where participants partake in substitution of wine and bread for blood and flesh. There are evidently different heights of being civilized.

    Sure, you and your God are civilized, but yet uncivilized.

  37. Scott Thong Says:

    I don’t really take offense at being called misguided. I get that from atheist and Muslim commentors all the time.

    I disagree that a spiritual being would necessarily not require sacrifice or other material shows of submission. It sounds like a wholly subjective opinion to me.

    But is God a being of meat and bone that He requires to eat? Is He not omnipotent that He must beg humans to give Him a portion of their produce? Does the one who created the universe and everything in it need the sacrifices and offerings humanity offers in order to survive – sacrifices of things He himself created out of nothing?

    The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it – Psalm 24:1

    For every tenth that we deem to offer God, He can return an infinite amount!

    Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. – Malachi 3:10

    God is all powerful. If He wanted blood, He could simply will it and every animal on earth would explode into a fine mist of gore!

    Again, I contend that what YHWH seeks behind offerings is the attitude behind the giving. One of the most important limits YHWH has set on Himself is that He will not override humanity’s free will. Thus the free choice to offer something to Him is what counts to Him – the choice to obey and love Him.

    I suppose you argue, why not ask for offerings of gold or stone or other lifeless things? I could quote ‘the wages of sin is death’ or ‘a life for a life’, but we might as well as why YHWH is not God the Mother or why blue is blue.

    Or let’s hear your ideas: What would be a suitable way to atone for a sin or to pay for a crime?

    I suppose you simply consider your own standards to be more civilized than JudeoChristian theology. This is nothing new – atheists, humanists, secularists, ecumenicals and liberals throughout the ages have trumpeted that they are ‘more civilized’ than the Christians who believe in capital punishment, hell, that homosexuality is wrong, that bestiality is wrong, or that only Jesus offers salvation instead of every religion being a legitimate way.

    I am still curious to know what convinces you that JudeoChristian theology is based on predating beliefs.

  38. wido Says:

    Back to quotes? You lost the argument on sacrifice when you quoted Amos and Hosea. Your god seems to have a split personality disorder in regards to sacrifice. You have typical Christian problem of rejecting other historical records. Look up the Canaanite Ugarit texts. Psalms was copied from these texts. Actually, by studying it scholars were able to correct mistranslations made by the Hebrew plagiarists. There are a multitude of resources showing how Abrahamic faiths originated from polytheism. Here is a good one.

    http://jewishatheist.blogspot.com/2008/05/repost-ancient-judaism-was-polytheistic.html

    Special attention to how Deutoronomy 32.8-9 was altered from the original script should be noted.

    Sacrifice theology is of pagan magical, mystical origin.

  39. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    In our efforts to seek and define TRUTH, I would suggest ‘independent’ sholars, (and, even Scott himself) to conduct an articulate research, (of world class / standard if possible), simply to find out and to clear ‘once for all’ issues that bogged Christian world. Among the many things are:

    i) If it true that the early Christians did not believe in Trinity (before the Emperor Constantine’s Nicaea Council (323 CE);

    ii) Why ‘apocryphal bibles’ do exists, and why other than those 7 volumes are ‘canonical’

    iii) The issue of Jesus’ divinity. Jesus has never ever claimed divinity in himself, yet people regarded him as their ‘god’ (the son) or deity; (Note: Bible accounts showed that ‘peoples ‘worship’ him?. Note: If we notice peoples worshipping something, then “something”/ somebody is definitely ‘god’ ?

    iv) Why contradictions in the Bible statements/ verses cannot be proof of corruption ?

    And many more core issues. Independent researchers, non-Christian/ non-Muslim are imperative to conduct such a research to ensure fairness, and to avoid biases. How do you think ?

  40. wido Says:

    What is the point? The Abrahamic god that is the basis for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is a god of sacrifice theology and pagan origin. Suicide bombers of extremist Islam are the extreme of sacrifice theology. Yet Islam will not rid themselves of these extremists which should be their responsibility.

  41. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I smiled at myself when reading Wido’s comment (above). The mention of “suicide bombers” make me feel a bit funny..the words seems to be sprang out of his mind “all of a sudden” ! I didn’t expect it ! Mind you.. I was talking about something else..

  42. taxi Says:

    Yeah, everybody knows Islam is the ULTIMATE TRUTH [sarcasm intended]….ROTFL

  43. taxi Says:

    Recovered…So ULTIMATE TRUTH that there`s a medical condition for it “Sudden Jihad Syndrome (SJS)” where you can literally and metaphorically lose your head……back to ROTFL

  44. wits0 Says:

    “Yet Islam will not rid themselves of these extremists which should be their responsibility.”

    It has no reformation(possible) and is doomed.

  45. Loop Says:

    ‘It has no reformation(possible) and is doomed.’

    So you think you are the one going to heaven? You may feel like you but beware

    In the Bible, God says:
    “There is a way which seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death” (Proverbs 14:12 NIV).

  46. Scott Thong Says:

    In our efforts to seek and define TRUTH, I would suggest ‘independent’ sholars, (and, even Scott himself) to conduct an articulate research, (of world class / standard if possible), simply to find out and to clear ‘once for all’ issues that bogged Christian world. Among the many things are: – Nasaei

    I can answer all of these, but anyone else want to give it a try? Responding to attacks is excellent apologetics practise.

  47. Scott Thong Says:

    What is the point? The Abrahamic god that is the basis for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is a god of sacrifice theology and pagan origin. – wido

    What is the point of what?

    If you mean my differentiating between JudeoChristianity and Islam, try this comparison: Find a humanistic atheist who lives in and fully supports democracy. Tell him that his beliefs are fundamentally the same as the Communists who butchered 100 million in the past century, since they also believed that God does not exist.

    I’ll ask again: You continue to state your distaste for all forms of sacrifice theology, whether Abrahamic or pre-Abrahamic. But can you tell us why you consider it to be uncivilized?

    “You suck” is an opinion. “You suck because of so and so reason” is an argument. We have seen lots of your opinion, so now I am asking for your reasoned argument.

  48. wits0 Says:

    Loop tries to impress me with Proverbs, eh? It(she) inverted the intended meaning like islamos always do. Here it(she) is trying to justify blind faith at the exclusion of reason by quoting Proverbs. Ha!

  49. flowerofmecca Says:

    Loop: So you think you are the one going to heaven?

    You know you surely are with your brand.and you will meet all your friends and dance in circles of 72 eating raisins

  50. raisindance Says:

    72 damn prancng fools

  51. wits0 Says:

    Truly wise people don’t do good to go to heaven ; they do good for goodness sake.

    Loop would support cause carnage and destruction if it(she) thinks that is goodness to do Alan’s will. Loop’s understanding of goodness is faulty and distorted ; they consists of zombied indoctrination denying rationality. It’s(her) creed consists of following external observances as mandated, by the very letter and protecting it at all cost. Therefore all lies and denials are permitted under that stipulated commandment. We see plenty of that.

    VS Naipaul was correct to say that there’s no intellectual substance in her creed way back in circa ’82, in ‘Among the Believers’. That brought about a wave of denials. Haha!

    Now, why people believe in Jesus? Simple, he did not promote violence like with jihad ; no such a mandate is enshrined in the Christian faith. Therefore even a non Christian, like yours truly, respects it.

  52. Loop Says:

    1. ‘Truly wise people don’t do good to go to heaven ; they do good for goodness sake.’

    No they don’t.They manipulate the bible for their own sake .I have gone through the Debunking GayChristian101 and some show no respect at all to Jesus the God .

    2.‘Now, why people believe in Jesus? Simple, he did not promote violence like with jihad.’

    But some christian already smell like one.This is what one of them said in the Debunking Gaychristian101- It’s better to slander, curse, damn and even Murder; and be less sinful in Murdering – actually blessed by God-, than it is to be a homosexual!

    I dont try to impress you with the Proverbs(Proverbs 14:12 NIV).There are truly people to respect even if sound violence because they know which really right to a man. And I guess you should just stay with your Confucious than wander around in this well of corruption.

  53. kesava Says:

    Loop says: “here are truly people to respect even if sound violence because they know which really right to a man. And I guess you should just stay with your Confucious than wander around in this well of corruption.”

    Yes you r right. 9 year old females are in the footsteps of good men even if they “sound violence”.
    Qur’an 3:85: “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).”

    That is why hindu and buddhist temples were destroyed. Afghanistan, one time centre of Buddhist learning, was totally destroyed and all converted to Islam. They did the same in Europe (where their main contribution was coffee, opium and hashish). In India their main contribution was dancing girls and spermaticks.

  54. wits0 Says:

    Qur’an 3:85: “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).”

    That makes it a fanatical cult, not a religion. But loop gets drunk with such hubris and think this type of creed can dominate the earth!

  55. flowerofmecca Says:

    2.‘Now, why people believe in Jesus? Simple, he did not promote violence like with jihad.’ – wits0

    But some christian already smell like one.-Loop
    _________________________________________________

    Why are you afraid of what your prophet Mohamed said in answer to wits0? That is where your answer should lie.
    Your answer only invites “those are bad christians obviously”. The same cannot be said of the muslim prophet and his followers.

  56. flowerofmecca Says:

    Madman`s disease:

    ALLAH has, surely, cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a blazing fire,
    33: 66. Wherein they will abide forever. They will find therein no friend, nor helper.
    33: 67. On the day when their faces are turned over into the fire they will say, `O, would that we had obeyed ALLAH and obeyed the Messenger

    5: 52. O ye who believe ! take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends of each other. And whoso among you takes them for friends is indeed one of them. Verily ALLAH guides not the unjust people.

    5: 34. The only reward of those, who wage war against ALLAH and HIS Messenger and strive to create disorder in the land, is that they be slain or crucified or their hands and feet be cut off on account of their enmity, or they be expelled from the land. That shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment;

  57. Loop Says:

    ‘That is why hindu and buddhist temples were ….’

    Then tell me who kill the Noble man Mahattma Gandhi? Muslim? Monghul?Ah-mad Pkistani? Wahabi? Syiah?Hannuman?

    I tell you ..It is Hindu the extremist.Or Terrorist!?

    Parpu curry.

  58. Loop Says:

    “Qur’an 3:85: “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).”

    Masya Allah…it is sooo true.Then which one would you pefer? The truth, the lost or the corrupted one?

    Even Confucious in The Spring/Autumn Annals did not tell the truth.He hide the bad did of their people in the past, one of the element in the Chinese historiography for the legacy of China.

  59. taxi Says:

    Gandhi should have been shot dead in the `20s. It is a pity it was not done. Today the brave man who shot dead that skunk, has a portrait in the Indian Parliament.
    Mohamed should have died as a baby saving the world from its loopiness.

  60. taxi Says:

    Islam is corrupted hinduism at work. Even the kaaba is a former shiva temple.

  61. Loop Says:

    ‘Islam is corrupted hinduism at work. Even the kaaba is a former shiva temple.’

    What is the difference then between the hindu idols and the Kaba?

    The comparison is an unfair one because while the Muslims bow down to GOD Almighty and only to GOD Almighty in Worship, the hindus pray to and glorify their idols. They address them as “your divinity” and “your holiness”. That’s clearly idol worship! You must never confuse the House of GOD Almighty, where GOD and His Servants meet, with the man-made idols and statues. Allah Almighty Said:

    “For ye do worship idols besides God, and ye invent falsehood. The things that ye worship besides God have no power to give you sustenance: then seek ye sustenance from God, serve Him, and be grateful to Him: to Him will be your return. (The Noble Quran, 29:17)”

    “And he said: “For you, ye have taken (for worship) idols besides God, out of mutual love and regard between yourselves in this life; but on the Day of Judgment ye shall disown each other and curse each other: and your abode will be the Fire, and ye shall have none to help.” (The Noble Quran, 29:25)”

    “And they set up (idols) as equal to God, to mislead (men) from the Path! Say: “Enjoy (your brief power)! But verily ye are making straightway for Hell!” (The Noble Quran, 14:30)”

    “Remember Abraham said: “O my Lord! make this city one of peace and security: and preserve me and my sons from worshipping idols. (The Noble Quran, 14:35)”

    The Muslims on the hand are not idol worshipers. And neither were the Bible’s Prophets (including Jesus), peace be upon them, who prostrated to GOD Almighty.

  62. Loop Says:

    So again , do you think this potrait of your brave man are the one going to nirvana? You may feel like you but beware

    In the Bible, God says:
    “There is a way which seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death” (Proverbs 14:12 NIV).

    ‘Gandhi should have been shot dead in the `20s. It is a pity it was not done..’You express the words with deep hatred .Its smell violence, and out of control too.

    Do you think you gonna touch nirvana too?

  63. wits0 Says:

    “The Muslims on the hand are not idol worshipers. ” – loopy

    They merely worship the black stone and partake in DIRECTIONAL: idolatry/fetishism when they pray. M’sia’s space tourist came back from space with some cockamamie solution.

  64. velvel Says:

    ‘Gandhi should have been shot dead in the `20s. It is a pity it was not done..’You express the words with deep hatred .Its smell violence, and out of control too.-Loop

    Gandhi emboldened muslims to slaughter hindus. I agree Gandhi should have been killed much earlier but the hindus were too stupid to do it then. He as killed hen his evil intentions was known. There is nothing wrong with hating evil – which includes islam. Islam is evil.

  65. velvel Says:

    Next to Aurangzeb, Gandhi was evil personified only he hid it behind a facade of “love and peace and all that muslim shit”. Because of gandhi millions of hindus, sikhs and buddhists died. In many parts of India an insult is “gandoo” (arsehole).

  66. velvel Says:

    The comparison is an unfair one because while the Muslims bow down to GOD Almighty and only to GOD Almighty in Worship, the hindus pray to and glorify their idols. They address them as “your divinity” and “your holiness”. That’s clearly idol worship! You must never confuse the House of GOD Almighty, where GOD and His Servants meet, with the man-made idols and statues. Allah Almighty Said: – Loop the intra uterine device (IUD)

    That is total rubbish from a brigand desert smoking hashish. At this rate the Indian film Sholay is better to watch. What is more interesting is this itself exposes the Loop as having a murderous heart.
    Muslims can bow before the black stone but hindus cannot do the same with their own. That is why many millions hindus were slaughtered by muslims. These days I love watching TV and seeing these muslims killing each other daily. It is always good news to me.
    The stupid americans should get out of pakistan and afghanistan and let nature takes its course.

  67. velvel Says:

    The main shrine in Mecca, which houses the Siva emblem, is known as the Kaaba. It is clothed in a black shroud. That custom also originates from the days when it was thought necessary to discourage its recapture by camouflaging it.

    In India the crescent moon is always painted across the forehead of the Siva symbol. Since that symbol was associated with the Siva emblem in Kaaba it came to be grafted on the flag of Islam.

    The word Kabaa comes from the TAMIL language – Kabaalishwaran temple (TAMIL is considered as one of the oldest languages of the world). Dravidian’s worshiped Lord Shiva as their Primal Deity – Indus valley civilization. Shiva Temples in South India are called as Kabaalishwaran temple’s. Kabaali – refers to Lord Shiva.

    Islam is a perverted Shiva sect.

  68. velvel Says:

    All Arabic copies of the Koran have the mysterious figure 786 imprinted on them . No Arabic scholar has been able to determine the choice of this particular number as divine. It is an established fact that Muhammad was illiterate therefore it is obvious that he would not be able to differentiate numbers from letters. This “magical” number is none other than the Vedic holy letter “OM” written in Sanskrit (Refer to figure 2). Anyone who knows Sanskrit can try reading the symbol for “OM” backwards in the Arabic way and magically the numbers 786 will appear! Muslims in their ignorance simply do not realise that this special number is nothing more than the holiest of Vedic symbols misread.

    Read from right to left this figure
    of OM represents the numbers 786
    Look at this symbol of Om in a mirror and
    you can make out the Devnagari (Sanskrit-Hindi)
    numerals 7-8-6
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/1035217/HINDU-SACRED-SYMBOL-OM-IS-MUSLIMS-786-Read-from-right-to-left-this-figure-of-OM-represents-the-numbers-786-Look-at-this-symbol-of-Om-in-a-mirror-and-

  69. Adifferentview Says:

    The claim that Islam is a perverted Shiva sect is ridiculous, being based on the most tenuous of links. Even if..a BIG IF..kaaba is related to a tamil word, surely anyone could see the vast difference between the Koran and any Hindu texts, or between Islam and Hinduism. Almost anyone except someone using the argument, “Mine is older than yours, so mine is better and the origin…” Hinduism is older but not the origin of Islam.

    Btw, the Kaaba is NOT an object of worship but the focus of prayer and worship…

    I’m no supporter of Islam but it is not right to distort evidence.

  70. velvel Says:

    “I’m no supporter of Islam but it is not right to distort evidence.”

    Follow your own advice. there are too many similarities, do some research then talk instead of trying to be cowboy. And you do not have to believe me, Indian historians have written much on the subject which is why many estate tamils believe the same and convert. Some muslims even claim that Mohd was the final incarnation of Lord Vishnu i.e. kalki avatar.

    And i never said “Mine is older than yours, so mine is better and the origin…”. You do not have to believe and no one would have any problems with you becoming a muslim either. Good luck and have fun.

  71. velvel Says:

    ‘surely anyone could see the vast difference between the Koran and any Hindu texts, or between Islam and Hinduism”

    As an anyone kindly explain 786 and Om. Oh forget it…just another coincidence. Your god is full of coincidences……

    “I’m no supporter of Islam but it is not right to distort evidence.”

    That is very similar to muslim mahathir saying “Some of my best friends are Jews”

  72. velvel Says:

    Sheeesh missed out on another coincidence – the Shiva crescent.

  73. velvel Says:

    I near forgot another coincidence…..the Arab muslims took arabic numerals to the west.

  74. velvel Says:

    “Btw, the Kaaba is NOT an object of worship but the focus of prayer and worship…”

    I can understand a donkey like Loop saying that, but you…………..
    To the hindus it is the same.

  75. Adifferentview Says:

    Yea, you’ve got some Hindu/Indian scholars railing away at historians whoi refuse to see such tenuous links.

  76. Adifferentview Says:

    As for 786, the Arabic letters of the opening phrase of the Koran (“in the name of Allah, the merciful, the compassionate”) add up to 786 in the value system of Abjad numerals. Muslims in some countries (Pakistan, India..) use 786 as a substitute for the phrase. Om? Clutching at straws…

  77. velvel Says:

    Good for you then, islam is the way for you to follow.

  78. velvel Says:

    Yes Om is crap, millions of hindus know that so they became muslims.

  79. Adifferentview Says:

    To the Hindus it is the same. That’s YOUR problem, isn’t it? Righto..can’t analyse and differentiate, have to LUMP everything together. No wonder my professor in Hinduism called it the Swamp: swallows everything. No need to think. All in god and god in all; all is god and god is all. Shiva is Islam and Islam is Shiva…?

  80. Adifferentview Says:

    The fact that I can differentiate what is correct and what is distortion does mean that I have to follow Islam? Or are you so much a Swamp-thing that you must come to such a conclusion? I don’t think that this blog is meant to bash Islam or Christianity or Hinduism..but if you must bask, try not to smash the truth with your clumsy hammerblows.

  81. Adifferentview Says:

    I did not say that Om is crap, so don’t put words into my mouth. I DID imply that you are clutching at straws with your link between 786 and Om in reverse.

  82. velvel Says:

    “I did not say that Om is crap, blah blah.”

    It is when those indian historians say it is and you call it tenuous. so you dont bloody well go pussy footing around OK. And I dont think much of your ahmad deedat calisthenics. e.g. when the koran was firs in circulation earlier Muslim scholar Fakhreddin Ar-Razi, in his famous book et-Tafsir-ul Kabir, links the 19 letters of Basmalah with 19 guardians of Hell.
    You would find comfort with Loop.

  83. velvel Says:

    “The fact that I can differentiate what is correct and what is distortion does mean that I have to follow Islam?”

    Loop can you help you with that, there`s already an effort by Loop somewhere up there in this thread.

  84. Adifferentview Says:

    Tenuous is polite, crap is crude. Not my style. Nope, not in cahoots with Loop. He/She gets short shrift from me, too when he/she speaks through the nose. Anyone can try to push his point of view, but readers of this blog who write in have MINDS, they think and they question. Can you deal with the questions? Can you hack it?

  85. velvel Says:

    “To the Hindus it is the same. That’s YOUR problem, isn’t it? Righto..can’t analyse and differentiate, have to LUMP everything together. No wonder my professor in Hinduism called it the Swamp: swallows everything. No need to think. All in god and god in all; all is god and god is all. Shiva is Islam and Islam is Shiva…?”

    Read the crap you have written, and you claim to be the discerning type. What a pathetic piece of crap you are. Then you say you are not against hinduism. What you have written is plain derogatory and in the UK you would be pulled up for racism. Oh and your professor in hinduism calling that a swamp…well that sure would have been a great professor…..the 2 of you must have done many monty python sketches together.
    I am right in Islam being a perverted form of hinduism, and if you cant accept it, then you are the Loop muslim variety. Just a pathetic creature who knows more than hinduism than hindus.
    You are a narcissist.

  86. velvel Says:

    “Not my style.”

    I am not interested in your style, I know many styles.

  87. Adifferentview Says:

    Loop, long ago, got too much loop and may have become too entwined to help you. Even if he/she could, you wouldn’t get any rope to pull you out of the swamp you’re in, having been so insulting to Loop. In case it isn’t clear to you, I am NOT a muslim. I simply differentiate between what is correct and what is distortion. It doesn’t matter to me who you are and what you are pushing…

  88. velvel Says:

    “Can you deal with the questions? Can you hack it?”

    You obviously cannot, you pass them off as tenuous, clutching at straws blah blah monkery.
    I am no longer interested in your monkery. You can fark off. But I will deal with Loop as and when I feel like it.

  89. velvel Says:

    FINAL

    “I simply differentiate between what is correct and what is distortion.”

    No, you are so full of yourself you are incapable of doing that.

  90. Adifferentview Says:

    State your evidence on 786 and Om. Don’t post short little links that explain nothing. Sorry, I won’t go away because this is NOT your blog. But I won’t have to comment about what you may write later since it ought to be the same bad record replaying itself….

  91. Adifferentview Says:

    Gosh, all you could do was call names, write insults and sound upset? Nothing rational there at all…definitely a bad loser. But what makes you feel you lost? Maybe you have learnt a little…don’t get so uptight, boy.

  92. somuch Says:

    Adifferentview had a hindu professor we are led to believe, and is an authority on hinduism therefore. Adifferentview is not in cahoots with Loop we are told, then we are told of what style is posessed by the doyen of hinduism who is not a muslim.

    Adifferentview has informed us that “Btw, the Kaaba is NOT an object of worship but the focus of prayer and worship…”, but hindus doing the same is a swamp thing.

    We have learnt much from Adifferentview, the new Sathya Sai Baba.

  93. somuch Says:

    “Sorry, I won’t go away because this is NOT your blog.”

    This is a long thread but I found no one asking Adifferentview to go away. Unless Scott is posting his own comments (which I will not believe), it is stating the obvious, but then someone had a professor on swamps, so I must be missing something.

  94. oldwine Says:

    Temporal lobe epilepsy?

    Daily contact with sheep might explain a lot about “mystical encounters”.
    I am advised by a practicing physician that the trances experienced by Muhammad and described in the a’hadith (narrations about the life of the Prophet) correspond to a classic case of “tonic-clonic epilepsy with a temporal start”.
    Ovine tuberculosis is a problem even today and raged unchecked in earlier times. This type of tuberculosis can be transmitted to humans and when a human is infected the disease travels directly to the brain where it forms a calcified cavity. This calcified mass causes a great deal of irritation and brings on epilepsy.
    Now the Prophet, we are told, heard ringing in his ears, his heart beat rapidly, his face turned red and his breathing laboured. Falling to the ground, he would shake with his eyes wide open and his lips trembling. He would drool or sweat profusely and would sometimes make a sound like a snoring camel. And, of course, he saw and heard things no one else saw or heard.
    As a victim of such convulsions there is little doubt that Muhammad himself was convinced God (or Gabriel) was speaking to him. Centuries later the same “mystical experience” was shared by that pastoral maid of Orleans Joan of Arc – who also was raised in close contact with sheep.
    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/islam1.html

  95. Adifferentvoice Says:

    somuch writes so much but betrays his lack of comprehension skills. Step 1 in Comprehension: read carefully. I didn’t say I had a hindu professor. What did I say? Go back and read. Carefully. Or enrol in English remedial classes.

    Am I the new Sathya Sai Baba? Haha, what a silly thing to accuse me of. Are you velvel using a different name? Or another one like him, ATTACK! ATTACK! ATTACK! A more appropriate name for you: not enough.

  96. somuch Says:

    Adifferentview Says:
    November 17, 09 at 11:13 pm

    To the Hindus it is the same. That’s YOUR problem, isn’t it? Righto..can’t analyse and differentiate, have to LUMP everything together. No wonder my professor in Hinduism called it the Swamp: swallows everything. No need to think. All in god and god in all; all is god and god is all. Shiva is Islam and Islam is Shiva…?

    Adifferentvoice Says:
    November 18, 09 at 10:38 am

    somuch writes so much but betrays his lack of comprehension skills. Step 1 in Comprehension: read carefully. I didn’t say I had a hindu professor.

    You did not have a hindu professor….you had a “professor in Hinduism” and are glad to learn from you that it is a Swamp.

  97. Adifferentvoice Says:

    I see that you can copy…good for you. Understand anything yet?

  98. taxi Says:

    How can swamp things understand is what I would like to know. U need professors in hinduism for that.

  99. Adifferentvoice Says:

    Scholars in comparative religion, including my professor, tend to classify religious beliefs in short hand to make understanding easier. Hinduism is a “swamp” in the sense that it tends to accept anything and everything, making no distinction between what is and what is not. Thus, “God is Love=Love is God”. I do not imply that Hinduism is inferior. It is DIFFERENT from Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The latter 3 share common roots. Distinction, differentiation and setting apart: these are key characteristics of these religions. All three proscribe idol worship. The Roman Catholic Church allowed, nay, encouraged “idol worship” at certain stages in its history but this is largely rejected by other parts of Christianity. As for Islam, to accuse Muslims of worshiping the Kaaba is quite wrong and unjust, and betrays poor analytical skills. Taking the other side’s worldview is important when we engage in dialogue. In sociology, taking the other’s worldview is termed subjective understanding. Acceptance of the other’s worldview is the key to dialogue, and it does not imply becoming a believer of the other worldview.

  100. taxi Says:

    The overflowing swampies,

    In his History of the Jews, the Jewish scholar and theologian Flavius Josephus (37 – 100 A.D.), wrote that the Greek philosopher Aristotle had said: “…These Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calani.” (Book I:22.)

    Clearchus of Soli wrote, “The Jews descend from the philosophers of India. The philosophers are called in India Calanians and in Syria Jews. The name of their capital is very difficult to pronounce. It is called ‘Jerusalem.'”

    “Megasthenes, who was sent to India by Seleucus Nicator, about three hundred years before Christ, and whose accounts from new inquiries are every day acquiring additional credit, says that the Jews ‘were an Indian tribe or sect called Kalani…'” (Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, Vol. I; p. 400.)

    Martin Haug, Ph.D., wrote in The Sacred Language, Writings, and Religions of the Parsis, “The Magi are said to have called their religion Kesh-î-Ibrahim.They traced their religious books to Abraham, who was believed to have brought them from heaven.” (p. 16.)
    http://www.viewzone.com/abraham.html

  101. taxi Says:

    The swamp collection,

    “There are certain striking similarities between the Hindu god Brahma and his consort Saraisvati, and the Jewish Abraham and Sarai, that are more than mere coincidences. Although in all of India there is only one temple dedicated to Brahma, this cult is the third largest Hindu sect.”
    http://www.viewzone.com/abraham.html

  102. taxi Says:

    The swampy dispora,

    Edward Pococke writes in India in Greece,

    “…in no similar instance have events occurred fraught with consequences of such magnitude, as those flowing from the great religious war which, for a long series of years, raged throughout the length and breadth of India. That contest ended by the expulsion of vast bodies of men; many of them skilled in the arts of early civilization, and still greater numbers, warriors by profession. Driven beyond the Himalayan mountains in the north, and to Ceylon, their last stronghold in the south, swept across the Valley of the Indus on the west, this persecuted people carried with them the germs of the European arts and sciences. The mighty human tide that passed the barrier of the Punjab, rolled on towards its destined channel in Europe and in Asia, to fulfill its beneficent office in the moral fertilization of the world.the distance of the migratory movement was so vast, the disguise of names so complete, and Grecian information so calculated to mislead, that nothing short of a total disregard of theoretic principles, and the resolution of independent research, gave the slightest chance of a successful elucidation.”
    http://www.viewzone.com/abraham2.html

  103. taxi Says:

    What the swampies did,

    Ancient Nuclear War? There is evidence that the Rama empire (now India) was devastated by nuclear war. The Indus valley is now the Thar desert, and the site of the radioactive ash found west of Jodhpur is around there. Consider these verses from the ancient (6500 BC at the latest) Mahabharata: …a single projectile Charged with all the power of the Universe.

    An incandescent column of smoke and flame As bright as the thousand suns Rose in all its splendour… a perpendicular explosion with its billowing smoke clouds… …the cloud of smoke rising after its first explosion formed into expanding round circles like the opening of giant parasols… ..it was an unknown weapon, An iron thunderbolt, A gigantic messenger of death, Which reduced to ashes The entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas. …The corpses were so burned As to be unrecognisable. The hair and nails fell out; Pottery broke without apparent cause, And the birds turned white. After a few hours All foodstuffs were infected… …to escape from this fire The soldiers threw themselves in streams To wash themselves and their equipment.

    Until the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, modern mankind could not imagine any weapon as horrible and devastating as those described in the ancient Indian texts. Yet they very accurately described the effects of an atomic explosion. Radioactive poisoning will make hair and nails fall out. Immersing oneself in water gives some respite, though it is not a cure. When excavations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro reached the street level, they discovered skeletons scattered about the cities, many holding hands and sprawling in the streets as if some instant, horrible doom had taken place.

    People were just lying, unburied, in the streets of the city. And these skeletons are thousands of years old, even by traditional archaeological standards. These skeletons are among the most radioactive ever found, on par with those at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At one site, Soviet scholars found a skeleton which had a radioactive level 50 times greater than normal.
    http://www.zenzibar.com/news/article.asp?id=1768

  104. Loop Says:

    I have just read your respond adifferentview. And I think this is your longest respond I had ever read . I appreciate it and feel sorry for the mess you have gone through for the moment.

  105. Loop Says:

    ‘Sathya Sai Baba’= adifferentview

    I have read this Sathya Sai Baba. He is really great in India.

    Pooohh salute you adiferentview.

  106. Adifferentview Says:

    No problem; small matter; used to insults of an even cruder kind. Don’t like Sathya Sai Baba. Asmall insult to me to be likened to him. I knew of him long ago (the 1980s!). A man, a Westerner, stayed with him in his place for some years and then left, disillusioned. His followers view him a god. Not a god. A powerful man, maybe a magician but not an illusionist. He is powerful.

  107. wits0 Says:

    “A powerful man, maybe a magician but not an illusionist. He is powerful.”

    Many Indians averred he’s a fake holy man.

  108. Adifferentview Says:

    The first man who ever wrote about him said he was a powerful magician who drank semen to replenish his powers but the book was subsequently withdrawn by the publishers. Libel suit.

  109. Adifferentview Says:

    I don’t know whether it is still available but you will come across it; google Lord of the Air; and the guy is Tal Brook.

  110. somuch Says:

    Read Loop`s Book which has not been withdrawn…the one where you get flying horse-like creatures better than Star Trek with an intro here
    https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/buraq-hussein-obama/
    Google it to learn more

  111. flowerofmecca Says:

    Loop salutes and Adifferentview Says “used to insults of an even cruder kind”. All is right with the jurassic world now and pterodactyls are still flying.

  112. Scott Thong Says:

    taxi, that’s an interesting theory that the Jews are descended from Indian ancestors, or at least inherited some of their philosophy. That would make it full circle when the Bnei Menashe claim to be a lost tribe of Israel!

    And note that while scholars mostly believe Abraham was a Mesopotamian or other West Asian, that does not preclude heritage from further East in Asia.

  113. velvel Says:

    taxi Says:
    November 18, 09 at 12:06 pm

    Clearchus of Soli wrote, “The Jews descend from the philosophers of India. The philosophers are called in India Calanians and in Syria Jews. The name of their capital is very difficult to pronounce. It is called ‘Jerusalem.’”

    # somuch Says:
    November 19, 09 at 8:19 am

    Read Loop`s Book which has not been withdrawn…the one where you get flying horse-like creatures better than Star Trek with an intro here
    https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/buraq-hussein-obama/
    Google it to learn more
    ***************************************************

    In Loop`s flying-horse book (written after 600 A.D.) “jerusalem” is not mentioned, even though it was in existence before Christ. Today the Loopies want the Jews out as it belongs to the Loopies (they claim).

  114. wido Says:

    Scott Thong said,

    1. On God ‘pleased by the smell of burning flesh’, it is actually more of being pleased in the attitude behind the sacrifice, as can be seen in these passages:
    For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. – Hosea 6:6
    “I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies. Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them. Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps. But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream! – Amos 5:21-24

    Where does Scott get out of these passages that God is pleased about attitude behind sacrifice? Scott, why is human sacrifice considered uncivilized? Why is sticking pins in a voodoo doll considered uncivilized? You can justify whatever in your mind. Even murder. As I said I consider sacrifice theology uncivilized because I know its history and origin which you can’t seem to acknowledge. It is born of the ignorance of aboriginal man. It is an shallow attempt to barter with god/s to receive something for this bloody offering of something’s or someone’s life.

  115. wido Says:

    Nasaei Ahmad said,
    I smiled at myself when reading Wido’s comment (above). The mention of “suicide bombers” make me feel a bit funny..the words seems to be sprang out of his mind “all of a sudden” ! I didn’t expect it ! Mind you.. I was talking about something else..

    I was saying “What is the point?” comtemplating about a “Trinity” if the basis of your belief is in a god of aboriginal pagan origin founded on sacrifice theology. And that radical Islam practices sacrifice theology through suicide bombings. Of course, you want discussion to go somewhere else when someone confronts you with the truth about all Abrahamic faiths and the corruption of radical Islam.

  116. Adifferentview Says:

    Where did Scott get out of these passages that God is pleased abot attitude behind sacrifice? – wido

    By honestly wrestling with these texts..what is called textual analysis. He could have said..”righteous action, etc..and he woul;d have been more accurate. But he paid attention to the texts, which you did not.

  117. Adifferentview Says:

    wido has claimed superior knowledge about the history and origin of sacrifice. I’m unconvinced that he knows. He presents NO EVIDENCE except his personal view..a biased one. He knows how to compare the similarities among religions that have sacrifice. He lumps everything together into one big mass. That is hardly helpful or instructional.

  118. Adifferentview Says:

    He fails to contrast them, to note their differences. In Sociology of Religion 101, his essay would have been rejected, and he would have been told to be more rigorous. Never mind what his conclusion is, he must pay attention to the texts/literature before his eyes. His conclusion should be supported by rigorous analysis. It is not.

  119. Scott Thong Says:

    If you consider sacrifice theology uncivilized simply because it is based on pre-modern roots, I would argue that just because something predates written history, does not mean it is automatically uncivilized (or is clothing similarly barbaric?).

    But if you object to then point of using someone or something else’s life to deflect one’s own just punishment, then I can understand. See? All I wanted was for you to explain your reasoning so that I can understand where you’re coming from better. It does not mean that I want to bash your opinion.

    IMHO, humn sacrifice is uncivilized because a human life is sacred – as opposed to animal lives which are not (Burger King and KFC for lunch anyone?). After all, we ourselves are human – killing our own species is the ultimate antithesis of both holy religion and secular Darwinism. Sticking pins in a voodoo doll is not uncivilized in itself – however, the intention to cause harm to the target is.

  120. Mad Bluebird Says:

    Beats all this junk by evolutionists wackos that humans are advanced apes and birds are glorified reptiles

  121. wido Says:

    Scott Thong does not address where the Amos and Hosea passages specifically state God is pleased by the sacrifices. Adifferentview defends anignorantview by saying Scott’s perception through his wrestling and textual analysis confirms God’s was pleased with sacrifice. Adifferentview states I have not provided evidence for my opinions. I have when I referenced the archaelogical finds of Ugarit and the Dead Sea Scrolls. These finds provide evidence of origin of Abrahamic faiths and show how earlier texts were plagiarized and altered. You are all vested in your superstitious ignorant beliefs passed on to you by aboriginals and just try to twist things in your disjointed style of debate. We are indeed fortunate that the recent archaelogical sheds light upon the evolution of Abrahamic faiths. I suggest you people deeply study documentation like this before making any more ignorant statements.

  122. Adifferentview Says:

    Scott quoted Hosea 6.6 and Amos 5.21-24, and interpreted them correctly; but you are too dense to understand those texts. You gloss over them. Can’t help you there.None are so blind as they who would not see.

    The Ugarit and Dead Sea Scrolls are informative, and have helped make sense of SOME parts of Pslams, Proverbs..In what way can it be argued that earlier texts were plagiarized and altered? You are grasping at straws again.

  123. Adifferentview Says:

    These texts provide context and background to the biblical faith then, and do not shed light on “the evolution of Abrahamic faiths”. Again, be reminded that the contrast is ignored by you; you emphasize the similarities. Your methodolgy is eclectic. Indeed, your ignorance is profound. Study deep documentation? If you have done such study, it is not apparent. Only your deep-rooted bias is.

  124. wido Says:

    Adifferentview is hilarious. He needs to give us the secret code for the Amos and Hosea passages that provides the interpretation that God was pleased by the attitude behind sacrifice. It is not in these passages. Perhaps you are interpreting from another passage in some other book of the bible. However, that is like taking something out of context.

    One example of poor plagiarism is found in Proverbs 26:23. In the Hebrew text Mygys Psk is divided just as it is here. This has caused commentators quite a bit of confusion over the centuries, for what does silver lips mean? The discovery of the Ugaritic texts has helped us to understand that the word was divided incorrectly by the Hebrew scribe (who was as unfamiliar as we are with what the words were supposed to mean). Instead of the two words above, the Ugaritic texts lead us to divide the two words as Mygysps k which means like silver. This makes eminently more sense in context than the word mistakenly divided by the Hebrew scribe who was unfamiliar with the second word; so he
    divided into two words which he did know even though it made no sense.

    For an example of scriptural tampering, a fragment in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 as it reads in the Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls,[3] provides a special status to the cognate deity Yahweh.[4]When the Most High allotted peoples for inheritance, When He divided up humanity, He fixed the boundaries for peoples, According to the number of the divine sons. But Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob His own inheritance.[5]
    The newer Masoretic manuscripts read “sons of Israel” in place of “divine sons,” to conform to later Judaic theology. The older reading implicates an original polytheist context at the birth of Judaism. Within this framework, humanity was divided into seventy peoples, each with its own patron god.[6] Yahweh takes Jacob as his, shedding additional light on the textual meaning of the chosen people. The passage as it reads here and in the Septuagint clearly indicates that Yahweh was one deity among many and was lower in status than El the Most High, suggesting that his rise to supremacy was a later innovation. This older text of the passage is now used in the most current Biblical translations, including those based on the textual project led by Bruce Metzger.

    Other polytheistic links:
    Texts from the Persian period mention Baal and link Yehouah with Asherah and a letter from Elephantine in Egypt refers to him.

    A Hebrew inscription on a broken storage jar, found in Kuntillet ‘Ajrud in north-eastern Sinai and dated from the beginning of the eighth century BCE has three primitive figures: a standing male figure in the foreground; a female figure just behind him; and a seated musician in the background. The Hebrew inscription above the drawing reads: ‘I bless you by Yhwh of Samaria and his Asherah’ (Dever, 1984; King, 1989). Furthermore, a tomb inscription from el-Qom in Judea, dated to the eighth century BCE too, concludes with the words: ‘to Yhwh and his Asherah’ (Margalit, 1989, 1990 and further references there).

    * Psalm 82:1: Elohim has taken his place in the assembly of EL, in the midst of the elohim He holds judgment.
    * Psalm 29:1: Ascribe to Yahweh, O sons of EL, ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength.
    * Psalm 89:6: For who in the skies can be compared to Yahweh, who among the sons of EL is like Yahweh,

  125. Adifferentview Says:

    You don’t need a secret code to read and understand those Amos and Hosea texts. YOU are hilarious.

    I see you read wikipedia on Ugarit..you quote verbatim from it regarding Proverbs 23.26. Yet you did not cite your reference. THAT is plagiarism. Sorry, trying to impress us with your “scholarly Approcah” doesn’t work.

    Bruce Metzger? You mean the late Bruce Metzger, who impressed so many with his textual criticism? A New Testament scholar. One who imposed his own reading into the text from his point of view Described as eclectic in his approach? NOT an Old Testament scholar. Definitely a dishonest man when he invented the story of Erasmus and the Johannine Comma but would not retract it when caught out. Finally added a footnote to the effect that what he had written “needs to be corrected”. Caught with his pants down and merely walked around, saying, “needs to pull pants up.”

  126. Adifferentview Says:

    Some people are so desperate to disprove the Scriptures that they will clutch at any straw that comes by blown by the wind. They think that the Ugarit texts undermine the Old Testament. No, it doesn’t. Indeed, it authenticates the Old Testament.

  127. wido Says:

    Yes, it authenticates the OT as a document that was copied from earlier documents (with unintentional errors) and edited to fit the Yahwehist patriarchal god viewpoint. Adifferentview states that I am passing on the examples I quoted from other resources as my own. I am not writing a book here, and if I were, I would of course site other references or resources. I am blogging. I believe it is quite obvious I am not claiming the quotes from the resources as my own and actually some of the references are included in the quotes. It is truly Anignorantview who is “grasping at straws” trying to use groundless personal attacks to take the focus off what the quotes say to avoid and ignore the real origin of Abrahamic religions being evolved from pagan polytheistic religion steeped in aboriginal sacrifice theology. So, now what we have with the Dead Sea Scrolls is the oldest bible. Yet, still it is not the oldest documentation of a religious or even monotheistic nature ever discovered. I have a interest in history and you cannot study history without studying about the religions of man. The evidence that was presented is a small sample showing the pagan polytheistic connections of early Hebrews. It only is support that Abrahamic religions did evolve from those earlier sources. The main emphasis is that sacrifice theology was a pagan carryover that remained alive and has become the binder in the psyche of believers.

  128. Adifferentview Says:

    What you have in the Dead Sea Scrolls is NOT the oldest bible. That is an opinion unwarranted by the evidence. The opinion that sacrifice theology was a pagan carryover is also unwarranted.

    Don’t complain about groundless personal attacks. I merely responded to yours. People interested in history are NOT excused when they delve in religion, theology, philosophy, psychology and sociology, OT and NT studies and make far fetched claims.

  129. Adifferentview Says:

    Ugarit helps us understand Canaanite religion and clarify difficult words..that conclusion of the wikipedia article is acceptable. Acceptable in that sense, and not beyond. Read. Understand. In the OT, we see the following stages: Trinitarianism (present, not developed as a theology), Polytheism (due to sin), Israelite monotheism (due to Yahweh’s choice), re-emergent Trinitarianism ( due to the words of Jesus Christ).

  130. Scott Thong Says:

    Adifferentview has a better grasp of this topic than I do, so I will let him continue to respond to wido.

    But let me just add:

    1) As I have said before, if the Biblical narrative is correct, then all non-monetheistic religions are merely a distortion of the first, original religion – that of worship of YHWH which originates from the first human culture.

    2) Just because there are similarities between different religions, does that mean that one is a plagiarism of another? What about the possibility that each of the similar religions derives from a common origin? Compare to the Synaptic Gospels: they have many similarities, yet most scholars believe that they are based on a common origin – the Q Document – not that Luke plagiarized Matthew who plagiarized Mark.

    3) Further to 2, what about the possibility that each of the religions developed independently and it is just coincidence that they have similarities? Or did Aztec human sacrifice in South America also plagiarize Persian practices?

    The Bible has been attacked for 2000 years. Yet critics have still not managed to decisively undermine it… Even with Higher Criticism, a supposedly scholarly and well researched effort that claimed to discredit the Bible as a mishmash of separate works lumped together, was revealed as a mockery by The Amber Witch.

  131. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Sorry Scott, I have explained it but I didn’t clearly comprehend your position about God’s ability to create a “so big rock that he himself unable to move it”.. Can you explain further please?

    In early 70s my Bhuddhist friend asked this question, so I believe the question was at least 50 years old, or more. We should clear this issue “one for all” as I said.

    By the way, do you think God can do all thing, everything ?

    What do you understand with “with God anything is possible” ?

  132. Scott Thong Says:

    Basically, my position is that God cannot do some things, like lie, be evil, break a promise, etc. Illogical and senseless things – like making yes = no or nonsensical rocks – fall under that category as well.

    You would add ‘becoming incarnate’ to that list, so I think you can grasp the concept.

  133. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I agree. Atheists confused and ‘cheated’ themselves by applying a yes=no
    question, which is INVALID: They mocked themselves, and yet they say their logic is “logic” !

    These are the possibly other INVALID childish and inane questions, atheist forgot to ask:

    i) Can God create a thing which is moving forward, and exactly the same time rectracting backward ?

    ii) Can God create a father and a son, but the son born first/ earlier (the son is older than his father)

    iii) Who created God ?

    iv) Can God create something which is not moving and yet not static?

    and many more invalid gibberish questions.

    For Muslims, we never thought God to be like what we think. He is not like any of his creature; He doesn’t work like us or any of his creatures. So the question cannot be applied to God.

    Take for example, they asked “who created god”.. This question applied to every single creatures but cannot be applied to God..simply God is NOT God if He needs or depends on any other things (to create Him or else..). He is not God! Are you (atheist) talking abou God or..).

    When we say (or meant) God, from Muslim point of view, He is completely free and independent from WHATSOEVER (in His existence, actions, attributes, destiny, planning etc). Muslim believe that God never, and doesn’t depend on any of His creation. Therefore the question cannot be applied to God, like his creatures. Invalid! Shame on atheists for their stupidity.

    And remember again, He doesn’t work like we do.. (for human to build a house or building, we need materials, equipments such as handsaw, machines, hammer etc, etc). But God works NOT like what we think).

    The flaw is that atheist thought God is like human being, like atheists or the rest ! And perhaps they want God to work or plan in corformity with
    what atheist like to see.. what a “smart” atheist !

  134. wido Says:

    To A different view<

    While there have been discoveries of fragments and the silver scrolls that are older (600 BCE) than the oldest of the Dead Sea Scrolls (200 BCE). Form what I have read, it is the Dead Sea Scrolls that has been determined by experts more qualified than you or I as the oldest most complete Torah ever discovered. It is your opinion without evidence that now states that the Dead Sea Scrolls are not the oldest most complete Torah ever discovered. Please tell us about an older more complete Torah that you know of.

    Hebrew derived from Proto-Hebrew/Aramaic which derived from Phoenician which derived from Proto-Canaanite script both being close to Ugaritic (Canaanite) of an earlier time. The Ugarit Texts (scripture) of 1400 BCE pre-date any OT scripture found. The OT borrows from it. You need to provide proof it doesn’t. Which you can’t do.

    You need to express what you know of history at this point and start proving when and where you think the first sacrifice of the Bible took place (the offerings of Cain and Abel) since your are so positive this was the first sacrifice performed by man.

  135. Fatahi Says:

    Any one who believes that Jesus was God-because according to the bible-he allowed his disciples to wirship him- has certainly parked his brain in the car park. How can people be so gullible. Did not the Egyptians regard their kings as Gods and worship them. What about Budhists who regard Budha as a God.

    HAVE YOU EVER READ YOUR BIBLE. Did not Jesus ask GOD-TO TAKE THIS CUP FROM HIM. Jesus did not want to die! And he did not die. God answerd his prayers.

    Can you imagine God praying to himself-and asking himself-to save himself from death. The whole world is in a mess because of human beings who follow falsehood. The CHRISTIAN FAITH IS A JOKE.

  136. wits0 Says:

    “The CHRISTIAN FAITH IS A JOKE.”

    At least it(Gospels wise) doesn’t promote jihad.

    Buddha never was worshipped as a God. Buddhist don’t believe in God. When asked about the monotheists type creator God, the Buddha was against such a Concept. He asked, “So that Man will commit evil in His name?” IOW, Man is not owned and “created” to worship some perfidious and narcissistic “God” out of fear. And in the process, enable a crop of venal, and power hungry, control freaks theologians to subvert everyone else in their devious quest for mundane influence and wealth. watch the Iranian mullahs.

  137. Simon Thong Says:

    Fatahi, Jesus may have asked the Father to “take this cup from me” but he also said, “My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from me unless I drink it, your will be done.” (Matthew 26:42) Much later, he is on the cross and dies. (Matthew 27:50) Then comes the Resurrection! (Matthew 28:1ff) Don’t be dishonest, Fatahi, taking one part and not the rest.

  138. Adifferentview Says:

    wido> the OT borows from it.

    wido, prove that this is true. Just because something is older, it would be naive to decide that the later borrowed from the earlier. That is a genertalization that you have to rpove here.

  139. Adifferentview Says:

    wido, scholars do not claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest most complete Torah. A few may…the others have been more cautious. The Scrolls are much older manuscripts but they are not seen as a replacement of the OT but as documents that shed light on the latter.

  140. Adifferentview Says:

    wido, interested in history, asks for proof? Are the sacrifices of Cain and Abel within the realm of history that they may be proven or disproven?

  141. Adifferentview Says:

    Fatahi, “HAVE YOU EVER READ YOUR BIBLE?”

    Have you ever read the Christian Bible, Fatahi? I doubt if you have ever read more than a few verses of the Bible. Spouting your IGNORANCE is not helpful to the impression you give us.

  142. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Is it true Buddhists do not believe in God as claimed by Fathi above? Our Bhuddists friends should explain it to readers here. I just know 3 words in Buddhism : Nirvana, Shangri-la and Karma, which I do not understand them all.

    Other little things I know about Gautama Buddha is that he was an Indian Prince, right? And that he first exprienced a wishfully hardship solitary life, and ‘preached’ IN INDIA. After all, today most people in India accept Hinduism, instead of its ‘kin’ Buddhism ! I wonder why..

    And Buddhist statues(his complexion) in Thailand and Malaysia looks like as if Gautama Buddha was from Thai origin, or ‘Chinese’ origin (not Indian look at all). Why ?

    Pls. don’t laugh at me. I do know much about it frankly.

  143. Scott Thong Says:

    Fatahi reminds me of the late Ahmad Deedat.

    In his debate with Josh McDowell in Durban, Deedat mocked the gospel accounts of Jesus’ death and subsequent resurrection, haughtily claiming the following:

    one of the testators in the Gospel of St. Mark, chapter 14, verse 50, tells us that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus, all His disciples forsook Him, and fled. ALL. If they were not there, the testimony of those who were not there to witness what happened will be thrown out of court.

    But when it came to McDowell’s turn to speak:

    The people who say that will often appeal to Mark 14:50. They say that within two minutes they could dismiss the argument because Jesus’ followers all left Him and fled. So therefore, everything was hearsay. Men and women. this line of reasoning ignores common sense in the facts of the case. For example, read just the next four verses. It says this: “And Peter followed Him.” You see, they left Him in a group, but they came back individually – immediately, Mr. Deedat.

    Verse 4 says: “And Peter followed Him at a distance.” He went right into the courtyard of the high priest. And he was sitting there with the officer. Can you imagine? With the officers, and warming himself. In Mark 14, it says, “And Peter was below, in the courtyard.” Men and women, if you have studied the Scriptures, you’ll realize that Mark, in his gospel, was writing down all the eyewitness accounts of Peter. Peter was right there. Then we go to John 18, verse 15: “And Simon Peter was following Jesus, and so was another disciple. Now that disciple was known to the high priest and entered with Jesus into the court of the high priest.” John 19:26, “When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, ‘Woman, behold your son.’ ” They were eyewitnesses. They were there.

    Imagine that. Just read on four verses further, and anyone can see that Deedat’s claim is bunk. Either Deedat was ignorant of that fact, or he was intentionally being dishonest. In either case, it casts a shadow of doubt over this (in)famous polemic’s ability.

    Now returning to Fatahi… In his case, apparently he/she did not bother to complete reading even the verse!

    I would also debate him on exactly which group is making this world a mess more…

  144. wits0 Says:

    Some wise person said it very well on the Net:

    “The only viable justification for a Concept of God is that of a Loving One…….anything less becomes inadequate and untenable.”

    In the most essential of Principles, the Christians got it right!

  145. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Probably in that 2 hr McDowell-Deedat debate, they debated MANY OTHER issues. How abou the rest ? I watched Shorrosh-Deedate, Jimmy Swaggard-Deedat and some others but not McDowell.

    I also noticed in the past, some personal individual’s ‘misinterpretation’ of the Quran by its attackers due to picking some verses..and left the following details. Quote out of context. Invalid. (to me, “invalid”) is a very strong meaning word like “disqualified”. If I were them, I feel silly, shame if I purposely did such thing.

    However, I SINCERELY believe some of them did so ‘innocently’. So, the real issue here is they did not quite comprehend it (like many of us too) with regard to many, many sublitilities, ambiguties of Quranic verses/ text.
    We Muslim, do not understand them ALL, I guess.

  146. wido Says:

    to Adifferentview. Proof is that at the present time the Dead Sea Scrolls are the senior texts and are then closer chronologically to the original source. They are of course copied versions of earlier texts. You have to disprove them as a biased version of a radical cult that altered a few things by presenting your claim of knowledge of an older Torah that is exact in every manner to the accepted Torah of today. The Dead Sea Scrolls should be considered innocent until proved guilty. Until you can do so then you are trumped. I suggest you start digging in a Tel. The same goes for the Ugarit texts. They are the senior factual evidence. There is no evidence of a Hebrew Psalms outdating the Ugarit texts. You are trumped again. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush you know. The ball is in your court not mine. I asked you to date and tell us the geographical location where the offerings of Cain and Abel occurred since you are such an expert. Can you not do that? This is in reference to sacrifice theology being or not being a pagan carryover. You say that sacrifice theology being a pagan carryover is unwarranted so prove it by proving to us when and where the Cain and Abel sacrifices occurred. I have to know where you stand which seems to be hard for you to state.

  147. Adifferentview Says:

    Your first statement on this part of Scott Thong’s blog was that Jesus was a God of pagans, that the Abrahamic faiths came from pagan origins. You failed to prove that. Your citing of the Dead Sea Scrolls was rejected. You proposed, I opposed, and you were deposed from your pedestal of clay. Now you want me to show proof? Read everything again. All your claims have been rebutted. Older is better? Sorry, no show. You may have two birds in hand but look at them. Both are dead. Bring a new bird to the table of discussion..a live one, please..

  148. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Now I feel like sitting in a courtroom as a watchdog or an observer in a important trial. Bible (and Torah), and Quran are being put on trial. “Lawyers” arguing their case. The jugdes are the readers of this Scott Thong’s blog. They are also the jury. The prosecutors are atheists and those whom do not believe of any scripture that being discussed (or ‘put to trial”) now.

    Perhaps we need (and I hope) experts and specialists would join in the court so that case will be better debated.

  149. wido Says:

    To Adifferentview. Nasaei has a point about this being like a trial. OJ Simpson won his murder trial but lost his civil case. However, this is not a murder trial, which would require proof beyond a reasonable doubt. This is a civil case where I have met the burden of proof with chronological evidence and you have refused to provide evidence that disproves the Dead Sea Scrolls as not being closer to the original scriptures or disproves Psalms not originating from earlier non-Hebrew texts (Ugarit). Because there is a difference between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the later scriptures this means that God’s word is not immutable. It is only natural that you would want to discount or deny evidence that doesn’t support your opinion or aid in your defense. I have answered your questions with evidence, so please provide your evidence and cease with your baseless opinions. You also refuse to answer interrogatories about the approximate year and place where Cain and Abel made their offerings. We really need to know where your apologetic view and evidence rests regarding these offerings. The ball is still in your court. Quit hitting it out of bounds. Please answer questions and provide evidence or I shall consider you as having withdrawn from constructive debate.

  150. Adifferentview Says:

    No, this is not a trial, there is no jury and no judge. Moreover, you have not proven anything: I deny your assumption, which is that what comes earlier is the origin of later texts. Textual criticism may argue that way but that is their weakness. If older is better, then that is your prerogative. Constructive debate? In what sense have you been involved? You merely insist that you have won; there are no winners in this debate..omly minds searching for answers.

    Cain and Abel? Trying to set a trap? Why don’t you tell us your answer?

  151. wido Says:

    To Nasaei. Assuming I am an atheist is prejudiced. I just don’t believe in a God of sacrifice theology.

  152. Adifferentview Says:

    The argument from chronology can be powerful but not always valid. When applied to the relationship between the OT and the Dead Sea Scrolls, the assumption that the Scrolls outweigh the OT due to being older, is a fallacy. Textual critics commit that fallacy. The scrolls confirm the truth of the OT. Don’t forget, too, that the OT is, in the final analysis, faith documents.

  153. Adifferentview Says:

    And there, from your own mouth, comes the truth, wido. We’re back to square one, sacrifice theology. The Sacrifice of Christ is central to the Christian Faith. Unless and until we accept his sacrifice as the basis for our own forgiveness, there is no reconciliation with the Triune God. The Triune God..that takes us back to Scott’s original statement.

  154. wido Says:

    Adifferentview. I didn’t bring up the trial statement. Nasaei did. I just played along with it. If I have proven nothing then you have proven less than nothing. You provide no evidence to actually counter what you call an assumption. I never said older is better. Older has a higher probability of being or being more like the original source. Why are you so afraid to answer the questions? If you can’t answer then I have won by default. Come on and hit the ball back in the court with answers to the questions. After all, you are an expert. Aren’t you? Even if you answered with something totally stupid what would it matter to your kind?

  155. Adifferentview Says:

    “I win, you lose.” wido, don’t be so concerned with winning but with understanding and, eventually, faith. Playing along with nassaei? Playing him is more likely.

    The location of Cain and Abel’s sacrifices? Fear has little to do with that. Who knows the location? It’s all guess work, even among scholars, especially when it’s pre-Flood. There it is, so you can now criticize me.

  156. Adifferentview Says:

    Did I claim to be an expert? I claimed only to present a different view.

  157. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks Wido. We can’t help if believe in God or not.

    I guess you already know..we are looking for answers/ truth.. So we are “wanderers” (or wonderers).

    Well.. if you (atheists) do not believe in God, you might be believing in something else that you believe, eg. atheism, animism, “humanism”,etc. “Free thinkers” might have been “believing” in any philosopy as well. Why they believe in it?

    It is good for exchange of experience if you tell us what exactly you believe, AND WHY! Make it short if possible.

    Why do you think there is no God, for example. Some people also asking “why I am here without being asked to be here”.. and many more question.

    “Why is the “Big Bang coincidently made things so organized, sytematic ” etc?”

    Whatever people believe in.. I guess there is only two possibilities:

    i) What they beive is RIGHT, or
    ii) What they believe IS actually wrong idea. Not true.

    Perhaps (even it is true) we are living in shrouds of ‘mysteries’ which are so many questions around us that we do not have ALL answers, atheist or non-atheist.

    Better to ask as many questions as we can.. eg. “Can nature create by chance anything/something which are so organized like what we see today ?” (planets,.. galaxy, nebular, constellations; and creatures, animal
    kingdom, fishes) etc, etc ?

    “Can (according to science) an animate matter turn animate, a non-life turn life ?” Maybe scientists or even you knew this. I don’t know.

    “Why are things around us, (whatever it maybe), serves certain purposes or functions ?” (eye to see, ears for listening; brain for thinking). “Can these things think ?..so that they “pre-plan” anything?”

    “Can anything happened by nature, by explosion (“Big Bang” etc) make things so “perfect” like we see today ?

    We are all truth seekers. WQe do not have answers to all of them.

  158. Scott Thong Says:

    Actually wido, in a trial one could still win even if he ignored his opponent’s presented evidence. To use your OJ analogy, it wouldn’t matter what Johnnie Cochran said about the glove fitting if the prosecution had possession of a video recording of OJ committing the murders.

    To use another OJ analogy, let’s say that tomorrow someone committed a double murder that is eerily similar to the OJ case. Does this automatically mean that the new murderer copied the OJ case? That would be a likely explanation, but it cannot be automatically assumed that just because the OJ case happened first, the new case must have copied it instead of merely being coincidentally similar.

    Thus similarly (again), just because certain aspects of the OT are similar to certain aspects of other, older cultures, it does not automatically mean that Abrahamic rites are based on those practises. Or could one also argue (again) that Aztec human sacrifice comes from the same originator? Could all of them even share an even earlier originator – thus making them all ‘brothers’ rather than one being the ‘parent’? As you said Older has a higher probability of being or being more like the original source. Emphasis on ‘probability’.

    And even if Abrahamic rites were actually based on other religions, does that discount the legitimacy of Abrahamic faith? To use a linguistic analogy, are the Spanish and French languages unoriginal just because they originate from Roman Latin? Don’t we instead consider them descended from Latin, but valid languages in their own right? In the religious context, couldn’t the OT have included parts of – let’s say – Hammurabic law that God happened to agree with?

    To summarize my opinion on this matter as I have explained in several comments:

    1) Earlier does not automatically mean direct originator.
    2) Similarities does not automatically mean rip-off.
    3) The originator itself could be derived from an earlier origin.
    4) Even if it is directly influenced by an originator, that does nothing to discredit the descendant.

  159. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Scott, in my exchange of views on internet with one of avid atheist three years ago, the man lashed out attack on Quran. Among the many things else, he said one Quranic phrase was already been mentioned by some people of the past (Hammurabi, King of Babylon (1750-1792BC).

    I think both Quran and Bible have the similar verses that (roughly) goes..
    “tooth for tooth, eye for eye..” meaning that if you kill someone, you deserve to be killed also, as a fair penalty. Those atheists believe the law
    was so “draconian” – unfair.

    I have no idea about it. As a Muslim, I just believe that God can do anything He wants, including repeat the same words used to be uttered by peoples of the past. I believe Hammurabi himself got it from other prophet ! Don’t we all know prophet Enoch also lived in Babylon, much earlier than Hammurabi..

    So it could be : God- to Enoch- to Hammurabi.. and God revealed this rule in Bible and Quran as well. Why can’t it ? Muslims believe NOT a single thing in this universe happened without God’s consent/will !

  160. Scott Thong Says:

    wido would likely argue that since the Hammurabic laws came first (to our current archaeological knowledge), therefore Abrahamic religions copied their code from that.

  161. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    It is a matter of believe Wido ! We can’t help. The answers you were looking are not with us, I guess.

    You can say you don’t like the sacrifice stuff..and it seems to you pagans also did such a practice. May be you do not like other elements of religious teaching as well such as fasting, praying, donating etc.

    Even Quran says:

    “Say: O ye that (who) rejects faith !
    I worship not that which ye worship,
    Nor will ye worship that which I worship,
    And I will not worship like which ye have worship
    Nor will ye worship that which I worsip.
    To you your way, and to me mine”

    Quran 109:1-6. And..

    “But he who is a greedy miser
    And thinks himself
    Self-sufficient,
    And gives the lie
    To the best
    We will indeed
    Make smooth for him the path to misery;
    Nor will his wealth profit him when he falls headlog (into Pit).
    Verily We take upon Ourselves to guide
    And verily unto Us (belong) the End
    and The Beginning”

    Note: I believe “path to misery is in reference to the Day of Judgment, not now the worldly life. (Yes, atheist do not believe “the day of judgment”).

    only God knows best !

  162. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Some of our Hindus brothers probably thought that Islam derived, originated or in the past had ‘certain links’ with hinduism. I think so. (before Islam came, they were all lost..and worshipped idols).

    I had came acrossed some articles on the net about it several yrs ago. What did those ” uncertified scholars” say?

    i) Hindu diety/ idol was found in the Kaaba
    ii) “Kaaba” is from a hindu word.

    To me this is very simple twisted “black magic” of fact. Everybody knows that before the time of Islam (jahiliah /ignorance or pagan), around the Kaaba were full of idols ! Ibrahim a.s. (Abraham) demolished them all.

    Where did those idols or effigies originated ? If peoples claimed they were all from India.. then..take it ! Islam never needed it ! Islam taught to worship God Almighty, the one and only God, The Omnipotent, Omniscient God, not idols.

    School children who read history books know this fact. Perhaps some peoples twisted it, spin it to mean something.. which they like it to ‘favour’ tehir believe..and comfort them. Still !

  163. wido Says:

    To Scott, Adifferentview, Nasaei. It is in fact amazing that archaeology has uncovered anything of such antiquity as the Ugarit Texts, Dead Sea Scrolls, Hammurabi Code, and much more. But, the fact that of all the things that could have been uncovered that could have supported your view instead we have evidence that the current word of God in the OT shows signs of plagiarism, editing, and various Hebrew JEDP traditions all mish-mashed into this collection called the OT. The Dead Sea Scrolls show a high probability that texts were altered to suit the authors viewpoint. It is a higher probability than anything you have to support these borrowings didn’t happen, changes weren’t made, that the OT isn’t a mish-mash, and that Abrahamic religions didn’t evolve from aboriginal pagan sacrifice theology and other beliefs. When you add these many different pieces of antiquity together it proves that the OT is not all that original and not in its original state. For Scott to say it doesn’t matter if Abrahamic rites (sacrifice) were based on other religions after all I have said is paramount to my point. It does matter. All the apologetics explaining opinions supported by nothing are not as factual as the real evidence of the ancients writings uncovered. Your apologetics are straws you grasp for when confronted with real evidence. As I said before my question was not answered about the date of Cain and Abel offerings. You asked questions. I answered. I ask questions. You refuse to answer. You all lose. Faith does not equal truth.

  164. Adifferentview Says:

    I reiterate my point: you want to win your argument so badly that you fail to see the truth. I’ll let you be the winner. My hope is that you’ll see the folly of your victory. My father and his best friend split because both wanted to win their argument. For a year, dad’s best friend stayed at dad’s place FREE of rent, dinner included; he taught dad English. They argued over the same thing so much that they split, never spoke to each other again. Both are dead, never having made up.

  165. Scott Thong Says:

    Apparently, in Angels and Demons Dan Brown claims that Holy Communion was copied from the Aztecs. When I responded to wido’s claims by asking why not accuse Aztecs of copying ancient Levant sacrificial theology, I did not know about this.

  166. wido Says:

    To Adifferentview. This is supposed to be debate of some sorts in evaluating what is truth versus fiction (faith). Scott Thong established that when he said he would pass the “debate” over to you. If you ask me a question and I answer then I have played by the rules. I made an effort in answering why the OT as written today is not the immutable “Word of God” given to the Hebrews so long ago. I presented a couple pieces of actual evidence pre-dating the OT with my answer. You had no evidence to present to counter this evidence, only apologetic speculation, excuses, and opinion. If I then ask you a question and you refuse to answer and instead you say I should answer it first then you are not being fair. A debate has winners and losers. At this point of the debate, you are losing because of refusal to answer a question. You could even answer that you believe the first recorded animal sacrificial offering by mankind (Abel) to God took place yesterday and I could counter with actual evidence of sacrifice pre-dating that and it wouldn’t matter to you because you are faith-based and not truth-based. You are all about discounting or dismissing evidence in defense of your belief system by apologetic argument and not by presenting evidence and facts to support you.

  167. wido Says:

    To Scott Thong. I have not read Dan Brown’s book and I am not going to buy it. I think that holy communion or the eucharist is of superstitious pagan origin as well. There may be some researchers that have studied this practice and its record more than I. I am focusing on sacrifice and OT origin. I might like to discuss slavery sometime at a later time, too. But not for now.

  168. Adifferentview Says:

    I rejected your argument then, and reject it now. Those are mostly fragments. Some parts (not many) help scholars understand some things of the OT better, none challenge the veracity of the OT, and indeed, I see them as an authentication of the OT. We have the OT. Those are extraneous documents. You may see it as debate between truth and fiction(faith); too bad, you have distortions of the truth.

  169. Adifferentview Says:

    As for Abel, unless and until there is certainty as to his location, what is there to debate? I don’t debate for the sake of debating; there are better things to do. As long as there is openness, debate is useful. When you have hold of a rag in your mouth and believe sincerely that you have me by the throat, and keep coming back to chew at the same rag, what purpose is there?

  170. Scott Thong Says:

    Just to note: For a long time, it was argued that the Hittite people that the Bible mentions never existed, as there was no record of such a people in any other source. Then after a trove of archaeological discoveries was dug up, suddenly the Hittites were proven to have existed.

    Perhaps there will be a similar occurrence for evidence of Cain and Abel?

  171. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Do not entartain those atheists much buddies! They want us to dig out evidences of the very distant past which is impossible. Scriptures did not clarify every single details, it just said what Cain and Abel did. If nobody able to to tell it exactly, then atheists are correct ? No such thing !

    If we ask atheists to tell us the name of their distant forefathers who lived one thousands years ago..they couldn’t tell us also. Do they have no forefathers or ancestors ? What they did, where they live 1000 yrs ago? NO BODY among us capable of telling every minutes or single details.

    We should be reasonable. In fact atheists themselves unable to unswer many, many questions about science of the distant past, believe me !

  172. wido Says:

    Adifferentview calls these finds merely fragments.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls—comprising more than 800 documents made of animal skin, papyrus and even forged copper—deepened our understanding of the Bible and shed light on the histories of Judaism and Christianity. Among the texts are parts of every book of the Hebrew canon—what Christians call the Old Testament—except the book of Esther. The scrolls also contain a collection of previously unknown hymns, prayers, commentaries, mystical formulas and the earliest version of the Ten Commandments.

    Ugarit (UGRT) is the ancient name for modern Ras Shamra which is in northern Syria on the Mediterranean coast. In 1928 a local farmer discovered–stumbled upon–the site, and in the following years thousands of cuneiform (wedge writing) texts were unearthed by French archaeologists.

  173. wido Says:

    If you can’t tell me where Cain and Abel lived just tell me when they lived. The Bible is supposed to give us the chronology. So give us you interpretation of when they lived.

    Nasaei Ahmad keeps calling me an atheist just because I don’t believe in his God. I never said I was atheist. I have no conclusion that there is no God. I am a truthseeker and enemy of pagan religious beliefs. I look at the factual evidences available to study. I come to rational conclusions and do not believe in the mystical magical belief of blood sacrifice for reasons already stated. You mention ancestors. All you are doing is ancestor worship. 1000 years ago a line of my ancestors were in Normandy, France. So what?

  174. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Sorry Wido, I mean atheists in general (whomever it maybe, if they are atheists). I didn’t specifically pointing finger at anyone. If you feel you are more a ‘truthseeker’, that is fine. Somehow everyone of us is a truthseeker. Besides the past events, I think most of religions’ prophecies are about future (e.g hellfire, paradise etc) meaning that we cannot witness immediately now. So, it is a matter of believe. If everything happens now, then everybody will believe in what religion taught us – all atheists became believers.

    Perhaps God wants to test our conviction. If you believe – get’ll get it. If you don’t, you’ll get another. Maybe.

  175. Scott Thong Says:

    http://www.newser.com/story/78357/new-find-adds-centuries-to-age-of-bible.html

  176. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    What is Bible? If this question is asked to any Muslim, the answer is definitely: Bible, like the earlier “kitab” is from God, His words written by men, revealed to mankind thru’ His prophets for their respective peoples of their time. The seal and final of all His revelations is Quran.

    Quran sated Zabur (Psalms?), Taurat (Torah), and Injeel (New Testament)
    were all from God.

    The only question is whether the “Bible” we have in hand today is intact or otherwise, been tampered with..(or not). Not many people know for sure. I don’t know.

  177. velvel Says:

    Nasaei Ahmad is a joker…he tells hindus to take it. He and those like him should give it up:—–

    As the pilgrim proceeds towards Mecca he is asked to shave his head and beard and to don special sacred attire that consists of two seamless sheets of white cloth. One is to be worn round the waist and the other over the shoulders. Both these rites are remnants of the old Vedic practice of entering Hindu temples clean- and with holy seamless white sheets.

    The main shrine in Mecca, which houses the Siva emblem, is known as the Kaaba. It is clothed in a black shroud. That custom also originates from the days when it was thought necessary to discourage its recapture by camouflaging it.

    In India the crescent moon is always painted across the forehead of the Siva symbol. Since that symbol was associated with the Siva emblem in Kaaba it came to be grafted on the flag of Islam.

    Another Hindu tradition associated with the Kaaba is that of the sacred stream Ganga (sacred waters of the Ganges river). According to the Hindu tradition Ganga is also inseparable from the Shiva emblem as the crescent moon. Wherever there is a Siva emblem, Ganga must co-exist. True to that association a sacred fount exists near the Kaaba. Its water is held sacred because it has been traditionally regarded as Ganga since pre-Islamic times (Zam-Zam water).

    [Note: Even today, Muslim pilgrims who go to the Kaaba for Haj regard this Zam-Zam water with reverence and take some bottled water with them as sacred water.]

    Muslim pilgrims visiting the Kaaba temple go around it seven times. In no other mosque does the circumambulation prevail. Hindus invariably circumambulate around their deities. This is yet another proof that the Kaaba shrine is a pre-Islamic Indian Shiva temple where the Hindu practice of circumambulation is still meticulously observed.

    The practice of taking seven steps- known as Saptapadi in Sanskrit- is associated with Hindu marriage ceremony and fire worship. The culminating rite in a Hindu marriage enjoins upon the bride and groom to go round the sacred fire four times (but misunderstood by many as seven times). Since “Makha” means fire, the seven circumambulations also prove that Mecca was the seat of Indian fire-worship in the West Asia.

    The lunar calendar was introduced in West Asia during the Indian rule. The Muslim month ‘Safar’ signifying the ‘extra’ month (Adhik Maas) in the Hindu calendar. The Muslim month Rabi is the corrupt form of Ravi meaning the sun because Sanskrit ‘V’ changes into Prakrit ‘B’ (Prakrit being the popular version of Sanskrit language). The Muslim sanctity for Gyrahwi Sharif is nothing but the Hindu Ekadashi (Gyrah = elevan or Gyaarah). Both are identical in meaning.

    The Islamic practice of Bakari Eed derives from the Go-Medh and Ashva-Medh Yagnas or sacrifices of Vedic times. Eed in Sanskrit means worship. The Islamic word Eed for festive days, signifying days of worship, is therefore a pure Sanskrit word. The word MESH in the Hindu zodiac signifies a lamb. Since in ancient times the year used to begin with the entry of the sun in Aries, the occasion was celebrated with mutton feasting. That is the origin of the Bakari Eed festival.

    Since Eed means worship and Griha means ‘house’, the Islamic word Idgah signifies a ‘House of worship’ which is the exact Sanskrit connotation of the term. Similarly the word ‘Namaz’ derives from two Sanskrit roots ‘Nama’ and ‘Yajna’ (NAMa yAJna) meaning bowing and worshipping.

    Recital of the Namaz five times a day owes its origin to the Vedic injunction of Panchmahayagna (five daily worship- Panch-Maha-Yagna) which is part of the daily Vedic ritual prescribed for all individuals.

  178. velvel Says:

    Mecca is located in the Hejaz region of what is today Saudi Arabia. It is portrayed by traditional belief as a wealthy trading center, full of merchants trading goods by caravan from Yemen in the south and Syria and the Byzantium empire in the north. Crone shows that Mecca was in fact way off the incense route from Yemen to Syria, which bypassed where Mecca is today by over 100 miles. Further, there is no mention whatever of Mecca in contemporary non-Moslem sources:

    It is obvious that if the Meccans had been middlemen in a long-distance trade of the kind described in (traditional Islamic) literature, there ought to have been some mention of it in the writings of their customers, who wrote extensively about the south Arabians who supplied them with aromatics. (Despite) the considerable attention paid to Arabian affairs there is no mention at all of Quraysh (the tribe of Mohammed) and their trading center (Mecca), be it in the Greek, Latin, Syraic, Aramaic, Coptic, or other literature composed outside Arabia .

    For an increasing number of Islamic historians, the tradition of Mohammed being the source and explanation of the Arab Conquest, wherein Arab tribesmen on horseback emerged out of the Arabian deserts to conquer Syria, Mesopotamia, Persia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya and Spain in less than 80 years (636-712), stands history on its head.

    They demonstrate that the story of Mohammed uniting various Arab tribes as Genghiz Khan did for the Mongols, and providing them with the religious fervor to conquer in the name of Islam, is “sacred history,” rather than real history. Historian Gordon Newby explains:

    The myth of an original orthodoxy from which later challengers fall away as heretics is almost always the retrospective assertion of a politically dominant group whose aim is to establish their supremacy by appeal to divine sanction.

  179. velvel Says:

    This applies to the Arab Conquest, says al-Rawandi, because for some 200 years the Arab conquerors were a minority amongst a non-Moslem majority. For al-Rawandi, Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab imperialism. The Conquest is the reason and explanation for Islam, not the other way around.

    While there may well have been a historical individual named Ubu’l Kassim who was later entitled Mohammed (“The Praised One”), who raised followers and participated in the initiation of the Arab Conquest, he likely came from northeast Arabia in what is now southern Jordan. The deity that Ubu’l Kassim chose to follow was Allah, a contraction of al-Lah, the ancient Arab God of the Moon [note: which is why the symbol of Islam to this day is the crescent moon]. Ubu’l Kassim died, however, some years before the Arab Conquest was fully under way (the traditional date is 632). Al-Rawandi summarizes what then happened:

    Once the Arabs had acquired an empire, a coherent religion was required in order to hold that empire together and legitimize their rule. In a process that involved a massive backreading of history, and in conformity to the available Jewish and Christian models, this meant they needed a revelation and a revealer “a Prophet” whose life could serve at once as a model for moral conduct and as a framework for the appearance of the revelation. Hence (Ubu’l Kassim was selected to be the Prophet), the Koran, the Hadith (Sayings of the Prophet), and the Sira were contrived and conjoined over a period of a couple of centuries. Topographically, after a century or so of Judaeo-Moslem monotheism centered on Jerusalem, in order to make Islam distinctively Arab, an inner Arabian biography of Mecca, Medina, the Quraysh, the Prophet and his Hegira (flight from Mecca to Medina alleged in 622, Year One in the Islamic calendar) was created as a purely literary artifact. An artifact, moreover, based not on faithful memories of real events, but on the fertile imaginations of Arab storytellers elaborating from allusive references in Koranic texts, the canonical text of the Koran not being fixed for nearly two centuries. (p.104)

  180. velvel Says:

    Al-Rawandi concludes that the Sira, the life of Mohammed in Mecca and Medina, is a myth, a “baseless fiction.” This is the conclusion of a substantial number of serious academic historians working in Islamic studies today.

    They include Mohammed Ibn al-Warraq, Mohammed Ibn al-Rawandi, John Wansbrough, Kenneth Cragg, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, John Burton, Andrew Rippin, Julian Baldick, Gerald Hawting, and Suliman Bashear.

  181. tracker Says:

    Until now, many scholars have held that the Hebrew Bible originated in the 6th century B.C., because Hebrew writing was thought to stretch back no further. But the newly deciphered Hebrew text is about four centuries older, scientists announced this month.

    “It indicates that the Kingdom of Israel already existed in the 10th century BCE and that at least some of the biblical texts were written hundreds of years before the dates presented in current research,” said Gershon Galil, a professor of Biblical Studies at the University of Haifa in Israel, who deciphered the ancient text.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20100115/sc_livescience/biblepossiblywrittencenturiesearliertextsuggests

  182. so say all of us Says:

    The Dark Ages is a term referring to the perceived period of cultural decline that took place in Western Europe between the Decline of the Roman Empire and the 15th century.

    This is roughly the period when the Arab stranglehold took place till they were kicked out, culminating in their most humiliating debacle in Spain in circa 1492.

    http://www.idscience.org/2007/07/28/islam-the-real-cause-of-the-dark-ages/

  183. loop Says:

    Don’t twist to much velvel .Better velvel it around your kavadi will do.

    You can read it clearly that Prophet MUHAMMAD (saw) is not only prophesied in Christian Scriptures, Jewish Scriptures, Buddhist Scriptures and Parsee Zoroastrian Scriptures and He is also prophesiedin great detail and more clearly in Hindu Scriptures…This is really a great time for our Hindu brothers to open their eyes wide and recognize the Truth..

  184. kahkahkah Says:

    kahkahkah loopy loop is immersed in hindu habits, btw what did this “prophet” prophesy?
    It all sounds like hearsay, in a court of law it would be dismissed. Just like believing in Santa Klaus with no clause.

  185. kahkahkah Says:

    kahkahkah loopy going to carry kavadi for some funny tooth fairy.

  186. loop Says:

    velvel just waisting his brain. His understanding worst then a dog. kahkahkah laugh to admit his stupidness.Adhay..This is what your book said:Bhavishya Purana in the Prati Sarag Parv III Khand 3 Adhay 3 Shloka 5 to 8 :
    “A malecha (belonging to a foreign country and speaking a foreign language) spiritual teacher will appear with his companions. His name will be Mohammad. Raja (Bhoj) after giving this Maha Dev Arab (of angelic disposition) a bath in the Panchgavya and the Ganga water (i.e. purifying him of all sins) offered him the present of his sincere devotion and showing him all reverence said, “I make obeisance to thee. O ye!
    The pride of mankind, the dweller in Arabia, Ye have collected a great force to kill the Devil and you yourself have been protected from the malecha opponents.”

    The Prophecy clearly states:
    The name of the Prophet as Mohammad.He will belong to Arabia. The Sanskrit word Marusthal means a sandy track of land or a desert.Special mention is made of the companions of the Prophet, i.e. the Sahabas. No other Prophet had as many companions as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
    He is referred as the pride of mankind (Parbatis nath). He will kill the devil, i.e. abolish idol worship and all sorts of vices.

    Meaning its you velvel..adhay…

  187. kishen Says:

    “In KALKI Avatar, Lord Vishnu will incarnate himself as KALKI, the machine-man, who will come riding his white horse and with his blazing sword in his hands. This is supposed to be a future avatar of Lord Vishnu. At the end of Kali Yuga (present eon) He will punish all evil doers in this world, destroy this world supposedly and recreate a golden age again. KALKI is the last of the avatars of Lord Vishnu.”
    ______________________________

    The third avatar of the Lord Vishnu was Varaha, the Boar [Pig], which is why pork is not found in Indian restaurants.
    This fruitcake loopy is now trying to tell us Muhammad was **** * ***. Even I who is not muslim would not say that.

  188. kishen Says:

    According to Shi’a belief the 12th Imam, Imam Mehdi will come at the end of time, riding a white horse etc…. He is now in occultation meaning that after having dissapeared in the 9th century. He is believed to stay in a hidden well.

  189. kishen Says:

    Iran’s Ahmadinejad preparing for the coming of the 12th Imam

  190. kishen Says:

    “He will kill the devil, i.e. abolish idol worship and all sorts of vices.”—loopy

    hmmmm not very successful…..
    Islamic Republic Of Pakistan



  191. kishen Says:

    “He will kill the devil, i.e. abolish idol worship…”——-loopy

    haha lawak anak toyol dan bapak nye

  192. blotto Says:

    hahahahaha everybody got it wrong. Dont play play one.
    NAJIB IS THE FINAL ONE:

    “The Hijrah spirit practised in Islam is in line with the 1Malaysia concept”

    ….after he goes all kaput

  193. marsuthal Says:

    “The Sanskrit word Marusthal means a sandy track of land or a desert.”—-the nut loopy

    “India Army Sainya Seva Medal Clasp MARUSTHAL Bar. JC 168674 NB RIS D SINGH AC.

    Awarded in recognition of non-operational service under conditions of hardship and severe climate in specified areas. Marusthal is a large desert in the Hindu area.”
    http://www.trademe.co.nz/Antiques-collectables/Militaria/Medals/auction-262910585.htm

  194. marsuthal Says:

    Rajasthan is endowed with a continuous geological sequence of rocks from the oldest Archaean Metamorphites, represented by Bhilwara Super Group (more than 2,500 million years old) to sub-recent alluvium and wind blown sand. The western and north-western parts of young unconsolidated deposits including the blown sand of the Thar Desert (Marusthal) of western Rajasthan.
    http://www.rajamb.com/Geology.htm

  195. kaboom Says:

    November 30, 1972 : Unit-1 of Rajasthan Atomic Power Station at Kota begins commercial operation. Unit II goes commercial on November 1, 1980.

    May 18, 1974, : Peaceful underground Nuclear Experiment is conducted at Pokhran, Rajasthan.

  196. loop Says:

    “….Muhammad was **** * ***.”

    you are real pariah. Worst than animals.Even a cow can be a God but you a lower caste Hindu…cant even enter the pathetic temple. dont even have a chance to read Veda too and doing penance..Rama will killed you.No wonder you can only pick the kalki Avatar from the tubes.

  197. aziz Says:

    loop called ******* *** by claiming him to be kalki avatar the incarnation of Lord vishnu. Now he is lying He should be stoned, castrated and mutilated and his body fed to the dogs.

  198. aziz Says:

    # kishen Says:
    January 22, 10 at 10:25 pm

    “In KALKI Avatar, Lord Vishnu will incarnate himself as KALKI, the machine-man, who will come riding his white horse and with his blazing sword in his hands. This is supposed to be a future avatar of Lord Vishnu. At the end of Kali Yuga (present eon) He will punish all evil doers in this world, destroy this world supposedly and recreate a golden age again. KALKI is the last of the avatars of Lord Vishnu.”
    ______________________________

    The third avatar of the Lord Vishnu was Varaha, the Boar [Pig], which is why pork is not found in Indian restaurants.
    This fruitcake loopy is now trying to tell us Muhammad was **** * ***. Even I who is not muslim would not say that.

  199. loop Says:

    Big lier . these are HINDU SCRIPTURES PRAISE MUHAMMAD(pbuh)and prophesised in the Veda. It is you that is living in denial, telling lies through your nose. twisting your own words.I hope you don’t swallow your tongue.
    Hell doomed you!

    In the 20th book of Atharvaveda Hymn 127 Some Suktas (chapters) are known as Kuntap Sukta. Kuntap stands for Makkah or Bakkah. Several people have translated these Kuntap Suktas like M. Bloomfield, Prof. Ralph Griffith, Pandit Rajaram, Pandit Khem Karan, etc.
    The main points mentioned in the Kuntap Suktas i.e. in Atharvaveda book 20 Hymn 127 verses 1-13 are:
    Mantra 1 He is Narashansah or the praised one (Muhammad). He is Kaurama: the prince of peace or the emigrant, who is safe, even amongst a host of 60,090 enemies.
    Mantra 2 He is a camel-riding Rishi, whose chariot touches the heaven.
    Mantra 3He is Mamah Rishi who is given a hundred gold coins, ten chaplets (necklaces), three hundred good steeds and ten thousand cows.
    Mantra 4Vachyesv rebh. ‘Oh! ye who glorifies’.

    A similar prophecy is also found in Rigveda Book I, Hymn 53 verse 9:
    The Sanskrit word used is Sushrama, which means praiseworthy or well praised which in Arabic means Muhammad (pbuh).

    Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is also prophesised in the Samveda Book II Hymn 6 verse 8:
    “Ahmed acquired from his Lord the knowledge of eternal law. I received light from him just as from the sun.”

    The Prophecy confirms:
    1. The name of the Prophet as Ahmed since Ahmed is an Arabic name. Many translators misunderstood it to be Ahm at hi and translated the mantra as “I alone have acquired the real wisdom of my father”.
    2. Prophet was given eternal law, i.e. the Shariah.
    3. The Rishi was enlightened by the Shariah of Prophet Muhammad. The Qur’an says in Surah Saba chapter 34 verse 28″We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not.” [Al-Qur’an 34:28]

  200. loop Says:

    maybe loopy but not living in the world of denial for the rest of my life.Pity being Hindu but cannot even touch the Veda. Just living in the dark n hipocrasy!

    Ps. Sorry to the owner of the blog. due to the discussion out of topic.

  201. Scott Thong Says:

    Okay guys, sorry but I have to blanko some of the recent comments on this post. You’ll recognize what was blankoed if you were the one who wrote it, so try to avoid that in the future or at least be more discreet – for my sake.

  202. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    To Velvel and all his ‘share partners’,

    Before Parameswara converted in Melaka, as we know, almost all Malays (our Malay ancestors) were hindus. What is the reason for you to be proud of ? and that you keep telling us that hinduism is the oldest religion, even traces of hinduism were found in Mecca.

    Everybody knows this. Therefore, I think no need to ‘broadcast’ to the world..Let you keep comforting youself with it. While some peoples are proud of the history, we Muslims don’t. We say: Thank God we are Muslims. So sorry, some 500 yrs ago our ancertors were living in darkness.

    That is why I said, those interested in velvel or kavadi, they can take it (for free). If Abraham needed all those idols around Kaaba, he would have taken them. But, he destroyed them all, instead, Islam, as you know is doing away with idols or effigies.

  203. wido Says:

    To Scott Thong. The finding of the Elah Fortress pottery shard proves no connection to biblical texts except by conjecture. Saying one line is kind of like something written in Psalms and another line is kind of like something written in another later text and therefore this proves the Bible is older than 600-700 BCE is only wishful thinking. There is nothing on the shard that can directly correlate to verses of the Bible. The Hebrews were probably in Canaan as early as 1200 BCE. To think Hebrews didn’t learn to write Proto-Canaanite would be ridiculous. They lived among the Canaanites.

  204. wakino Says:

    For those like the loop in love with the puranas:

    Shri Suta Gosvami said: In the dynasty of king Shalivahana, there were ten kings who went to the heavenly planets after ruling for over 500 years. Then gradually the morality declined on the earth. At that time Bhojaraja was the tenth of the kings on the earth. When he saw that the moral law of conduct was declining he went to conquer all the directions of his country with ten-thousand soldiers commanded by Kalidasa. He crossed the river Sindhu and conquered over the gandharas, mlecchas, shakas, kasmiris, naravas and sathas. He punished them and collected a large ammount of wealth. Then the king went along with Mahamada, the preceptor of mleccha-dharma, and his followers to the great god, Lord Shiva, situated in the desert. He bathed Lord Shiva with Ganges water and worshipped him in his mind with pancagavya (milk, ghee, yoghurt, cow dung, and cow urine) and sandalwood paste, etc. After he offered some prayers and pleased him.

    Suta Goswami said: After hearing the king’s prayers, Lord Shiva said: O king Bhojaraja, you should go to the place called Mahakakshvara, that land is called Vahika and now is being contaminated by the mlecchas. In that terrible country there no longer exists dharma. There was a mystic demon named Tripura(Tripurasura), whom I have already burnt to ashes, he has come again by the order of Bali. He has no origin but he achieved a benediction from me. His name is Mahamada and his deeds are like that of a ghost. Therefore, O king, you should not go to this land of the evil ghost. By my mercy your intelligence will be purified. Hearing this the king came back to his country and Mahamada came with them to the bank of the river Sindhu. He was expert in expanding illusion, so he said to the king very pleasingly: O great king, your god has become my servant. Just see, as he eats my remnants, so I will show you. The king became surprised when he saw this just before them. Then in anger Kalidasa rebuked Mahamada “O rascal, you have created an illusion to bewilder the king, I will kill you, you are the lowest…”

    That city is known as their site of pilgrimage, a place which was Madina or free from intoxication. Having a form of a ghost (Bhuta), the expert illusionist Mahamada appeared at night in front of king Bhojaraja and said: O king, your religion is of course known as the best religion among all. Still I am going to establish a terrible and demoniac religion by the order of the Lord . The symptoms of my followers will be that they first of all will cut their genitals, have no shikha, but having beard, be wicked, make noise loudly and eat everything. They should eat animals without performing any rituals. This is my opinion. They will perform purificatory act with the musala or a pestle as you purify your things with kusha. Therefore, they will be known as musalman, the corrupters of religion. Thus the demoniac religion will be founded by me. After having heard all this the king came back to his palace and that ghost went back to his place.

    -Bhavishya Purana

  205. shooty Says:

    About Jesus Christ
    Texts 17 – 21

    vikramaditya-pautrasca
    pitr-rajyam grhitavan
    jitva sakanduradharsams
    cina-taittiridesajan

    bahlikankamarupasca
    romajankhurajanchhatan
    tesam kosan-grhitva ca
    danda-yogyanakarayat

    sthapita tena maryada
    mleccharyanam prthak-prthak
    sindhusthanam iti jneyam
    rastramaryasya cottamam

    mlecchasthanam param sindhoh
    krtam tena mahatmana
    ekada tu sakadiso
    himatungam samayayau

    “Ruling over the Aryans was a king called Salivahana, the grandson of Vikramaditya, who occupied the throne of his father. He defeated the Shakas who were very difficult to subdue, the Cinas, the people from Tittiri and Bahikaus who could assume any form at will. He also defeated the people from Rome and the descendants of Khuru, who were deceitful and wicked. He punished them severely and took their wealth. Salivahana thus established the boundaries dividing the separate countries of the Mlecchas and the Aryans. In this way Sindusthan came to be known as the greatest country. That personality appointed the abode of the Mlecchas beyond the Sindhu River and to the west.”

    Text 22

    ekadaa tu shakadhisho
    himatungari samaayayau
    hunadeshasya madhye vai
    giristhan purusam shubhano
    dadarsha balaram raajaa

    Once upon a time the subduer of the Sakas went towards Himatunga and in the middle of the Huna country (Hunadesh – the area near Manasa Sarovara or Kailash mountain in Western Tibet), the powerful king saw an auspicious man who was living on a mountain. The man’s complexion was golden and his clothes were white.

    Text 23

    ko bharam iti tam praaha
    su hovacha mudanvitah
    iishaa purtagm maam viddhi
    kumaarigarbha sambhavam

    “The king asked, ‘Who are you sir?’ ‘You should know that I am Isha Putra, the Son of God’. he replied blissfully, and ‘am born of a virgin.’ ”

    Text 24

    mleccha dharmasya vaktaram
    satyavata paraayanam
    iti srutva nrpa praaha
    dharmah ko bhavato matah

    ” ‘I am the expounder of the religion of the Mlecchas and I strictly adhere to the Absolute Truth.’ Hearing this the king enquired, ‘What are religious principles according to you opinion?’

    Texts 25 – 26

    shruto vaaca mahaaraaja
    praapte satyasya samkshaye
    nirmaaryaade mlechadeshe
    masiiho ‘ham samagatah

    iishaamasii ca dasyuunaa
    praadurbhuutaa bhayankarii
    taamaham mlecchataah praapya
    masiihatva mupaagatah

    “Hearing this questions of Salivahara, Isha putra said, ‘O king, when the destruction of the truth occurred, I, Masiha the prophet, came to this country of degraded people where there are no rules and regulations. Finding that fearful irreligious condition of the barbarians spreading from Mleccha-Desha, I have taken to prophethood’.”

    Texts 27 – 29

    mlecchasa sthaapito dharmo
    mayaa tacchrnu bhuupate
    maanasam nirmalam krtva
    malam dehe subhaasbham

    naiganam apamasthaya
    japeta nirmalam param
    nyayena satyavacasaa
    manasyai kena manavah

    dhyayena pujayedisham
    suurya-mandala-samsthitam
    acaloyam prabhuh sakshat-
    athaa suuryacalah sada

    “Please hear Oh king which religious principles I have established among the mlecchas. The living entity is subject to good and bad contaminations. The mind should be purified by taking recourse of proper conduct and performance of japa. By chanting the holy names one attains the highest purity. Just as the immovable sun attracts, from all directions, the elements of all living beings, the Lord of the solar region, who is fixed and all-attractive, attracts the hearts of all living creatures. Thus by following rules, speaking truthful words, by mental harmony and by meditation, Oh descendant of Manu, one should worship that immovable Lord’.”

    Text 30

    isha muurtirt-dradi praptaa
    nityashuddha sivamkari
    ishamasihah iti ca
    mama nama pratishthitam

    “Having placed the eternally pure and auspicious form of the Supreme Lord in my heart, O protector of the earth planet, I preached these principles through the Mlecchas’ own faith and thus my name became ‘isha-masiha’ (Jesus the Messiah).”

    Text 31

    iti shrutra sa bhuupale
    natraa tam mlecchapujaam
    sthaapayaamaasa tam tutra
    mlecchasthaane hi daarune

    “After hearing these words and paying obeisances to that person who is worshipped by the wicked, the king humbly requested him to stay there in the dreadful land of Mlecchas.”

    Text 32

    svaraajyam praaptavaan raajaa
    hayamedhan ciikirat
    raajyam kriitvaa sa shashthyabdam
    svarga lokamu paayayau

    “King Salivahara, after leaving his kingdom performed an asvamedha yajna and after ruling for sixty years, went to heaven. Now please hear what happened when the king went to svargaloka.”

    Thus ends the second chapter entitled, “the age of Salivahara” of the story of Kali Yuga of the Caturyuga Khanda also called pratisarga-parva of the wonderful Bhavishya Maha Purana.

    -Bhavishya Purana

  206. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Scott, some atheists keep asking us to tell them WHERE is the location Abel and Cain did their sacrifices. The want us to pinpoint or show them the location exactly ! And both Bible and Quran did not mention it specifically. As you know, they also say, sacrifice is the practice of pagans. So, somehow religions copied the uncivilised or lost peoples.

    And Wido (above) is talking about the “improbability” of Biblical “evidences” as claimed and put foward by some peoples.

    Definitely I agree with you..if people don’t believe, then what can we do.. Right?

  207. warkop Says:

    mleccha
    1 A barbarian,a non Aryan ( One not speaking the Sanskrit Language or not conform in to Hindu or Aryan institutions),a foreigner in general

    2 An Outcast, a very low man, Bodhayana thus defines the word:
    gomAmsakhAdako yastu viruddhaM bahubhAshhate | sarvAchAravihInashcha mlechchha ityabhidhiiyate |

    He who eats cow’s meat, and speaks a lot against shastras and he, who is also devoid of all forms of spiritual practice, is called a mlechha.

    3 A sinner, A wicked person, A savage or barbarian race

    etc…
    http://bhavishyapuran.blogspot.com/

  208. Scott Thong Says:

    Wait, so what about the ‘one line is kind of like something written in’ comparison you yourself use to find a link between Biblical passages and older pagan texts?

  209. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Should Ayah Pin did written his own sect’s “holy scripture”, I bet you..
    he would also find, and getting some believers and followers as well.

    I bet you !

  210. kopiO Says:

    “Should Ayah Pin did written his own sect’s “holy scripture”, I bet you..
    he would also find, and getting some believers and followers as well.
    I bet you !”

    Certainly in some enclaves that could be passed off as an intelligent comment.
    Nasaei Ahmad now compares Ayah Pin to Puranas which loop is so crazy about. Dont blame him after seeing the Bhavishya Purana site. hmmmm circa 3000 B.C. – now that`s real prophesying.
    This Nasi Ahmad is like Najib who says Hijrah is in line with 1Malaysia. Mahathir said umno is world`s oldest islamic party.
    They are all still having the same hangover.

  211. Scott Thong Says:

    I had to do a minor edit for safety’s sake, sorry… But those familiar with the Bhavishya Purana texts should know what is being referred to.

  212. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I didn’t intend to offend anyone…just to describe how..or what people
    ‘used to be’. Their ‘way of life’.. hehehe..

    When it comes to local politics, I guess we should NOT follow Umnoputra ‘way of life’, their doctrine. What is Umnoputra’s “doctrine” ?

    ..Do things to make sure they get the votes later..in oder to remain in power much longer..

    People say:
    POWER CORRUPTS; ABSOLUTE POWER ABSOLUTELY CORRUPTS!

  213. hahahahaha Says:

    Hell doomed you! – loop

    hahahaha you must be very familiar with it being its citizen

  214. bursar Says:

    hahahaha: you must be very familiar with it being its citizen

    We can`t be sure if “citizen”……………
    But being a executive decision, it can only be from the CEO of Hell.

  215. loop Says:

    hahahaha: you must be very familiar with it being its citizen.

    being a long time to getting sh*t again.someone has mend your broken condom at last…Who? Sita? Than Rama will killed you next.

  216. loopedout Says:

    THE CEO of HELL IS BAAAAAAACK

  217. wido Says:

    To Scott and Nasaei. Okay, so now you are saying that the pottery shard with five lines of text is the first bible. The archaeologist says this is proof of when the earliest composing of the bible was taking place. Gee, who was composing it. Obviously not God. First of all, there is no mention of El or Yahweh on the shard. The translator only assumes the missing part of the text on who is to be worshipped as the “Lord”. The word “Lord” is not on the shard. I have no argument against the possibility that Hebrews were writing in this period. They were living amongst the Canaanites and doing business with them so why wouldn’t they be able to learn that language and even make their own dialect from it. As I have said, the bible is a mish mash of stories; some borrowed, some factual, and some exaggerated. However, there is still some real history in there somewhere. That is why I want your opinion of WHEN and where you believe the offerings of Cain and Abel occurred. Not just where. From the chronology of generations listed in the bible you should be able to provide your opinion of the “WHEN”. This is history isn’t it. It is the experts who deciphered the Ugarit texts that claim that the book of Psalms is borrowed from the Canaanites. It is not me. It is not that sacrifice theology was borrowed by Abrahamic faiths. Sacrifice theology was there long before with these same people and as their socio-religious beliefs evolved from polytheistic to monotheistic they still held on to the sacrifice theology part. One thing for sure, it is hard to unite a people when they are worshipping a multitude of gods. So you unite the gods into one god and then the people under that one god. Much easier management of people this way. I actually believe in a higher power, which we all seem to call “God”. It is just that I don’t believe in the Abrahamic god with his baggage of aboriginal superstitious sacrifice theology mystical magical voodoo.

  218. loop drool Says:

    Taliban Rape Tapes: A ‘Muslim Abu Ghraib’

    With breaking news out of Palestine today that a top aide to President Mahmoud Abbas has been literally caught with his pants down, rape tapes seem to be popping up all over the pious Muslim world. And some are
    horrifically worse than others.

    Last month on the FOX Business Network, Colonel Oliver North revealed a startling piece of information. Conservative mullahs and elements within the Haqqani terror network – known as the backbone of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in the Af/Pak theater – are working to take the Haqqanis down from the inside. Their key weapon is a disturbing video that shows the serial sexual assault of several young girls.
    http://bigjournalism.com/bthor/2010/02/12/taliban-rape-tapes-a-muslim-abu-ghraib/

  219. loop drool Says:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=157_1262985328

  220. Otis Earlington Says:

    From reading your passage explainig how Jesus is god, still dose not add up to me. If you were to take the muslin argument and the christian argumunt to court and let’s say christian are saying there only one god then they are saying father, son , holy spirt which make it three gods which contridict it’s self already and the Muslim are saying there one god, the Muslim will win because it’s not logical for the christian to say one and change their mind.

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