Malaysian Experts on Islam: Wearing Symbols of Other Religions is Badwrong

From The Star 19 July 2010:

Football jerseys Muslims should not wear

KOSMO! carried a report about Muslims who wittingly or unwittingly wear football jerseys which display images of crosses, liquor brands and devils.

Johor Religious Council adviser Datuk Nooh Gadot said wearing such jerseys were forbidden in Islam.

“It is as if Muslims are worshipping and exalting the symbols of other religions. Islam does not compromise on this matter, regardless of whether it is worn for fun, fashion or sport,” he said.

Perak Mufti Tan Sri Harussani Zakaria agreed with Nooh and said although Islam did not forbid its followers from participating in sports or dressing up, it has to be done within the boundaries of Islamic law.

Among the football teams whose crests carry images of the cross are Brazil, Portugal, Serbia, Barcelona and Norway, while Manchester United carries the “Red Devil” slogan on its team crest.

I suppose this means that Muslim citizens of the UK, Denmark, Finland, Jamaica, Switzerland and so on can no longer bear their country’s flag.

Crusader symbol!!!

Also based on the same principle, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus and so on should no longer wear clothing with the Malaysian flag on it, as the flag includes the Islamic crescent. The same goes for Singaporeans. Ironically, despite living in the most populous Muslim nation in the world, non-Muslim Indonesians have no problem here as their flag is religiously neutral.

All non-Muslims should also immediately quit the Red Crescent Society, as serving in it involves wearing a symbol of a religion other than their own. Quit worshiping that Bulan Sabit Merah first aid kit, blasphemers!

Are you a Muslim? Do you live on planet Earth or in this universe? Quickly, Johor Religious Council adviser Datuk Nooh Gadot insists that you emigrate to another dimension in order to avoid being associated with the constellation known as the Southern Cross!

Muslim gamers must from now on avoid all health packs as these are usually represented by a cross symbol. The preferred tactic for making it through Left 4 Dead is now to just run madly through the level and hope computer-controlled hunting rifle equipped Zoey gets eaten first.

Players of RPGs cannot add to their stats as this involves a ‘+’ symbol that looks like a cross, and by all means avoid those Paladins, Clerics, Priests, Shamans, Necromancers, and any equipment with a cross or Yin-Yang symbol on it! To cast Holy Bolt is to exalt a flaming magical cross like some skeleton-blasting infidel!

(Wait, can you even use the word ‘exalt’? The second letter is a little cross! And you’d better not use unbeliever fonts like Comic Sans because the t is replaced by yet another Christian symbol! DON’T GO OPEN MICROSOFT WORD TO TEST IT, IT IS NOT COMPROMISE-ABLE!)

And most egregriously, those who play Team Fortress 2 must never be Medics or be healed by one, as this involves a guy with a cross on his uniform shooting out little crosses at the wounded teammate in order to fill his little cross-shaped healthbar – the worst combo worshipping-and-exalting-the-symbols-of-other-religions offence possible! Perak Mufti Tan Sri Harussani Zakaria will personally dominate you with only taunt kills if you do not comply!




UPDATE 24 July 2010: Make what you will of this follow up proclamation by the same Perak mufti (note the unIslamic crosses on the one hand, and unIslamic skulls and devils on the other):

No ‘religious ban’ on MU jerseys, says Perak mufti

KUALA LUMPUR: There is no “religious ban” on Manchester United jerseys despite statements by several prominent Islamic scholars urging Muslims not to don the Premier League club’s shirts because the emblem features a devil.

Perak mufti Tan Sri Harussani Zakaria said jerseys with devils, crosses or skulls promoted the wrong values for Muslims but that did not mean they should be banned.

“A fatwa on the matter is not necessary as it is clearly wrong for Muslims to wear shirts with devils and other unIslamic symbols because it is against the teachings of Islam,” he said yesterday.

Apart from Manchester United, which is also known as The Red Devils, other football teams whose crests carry images deemed unIslamic like the cross are Brazil, Portu­gal, Serbia, Barcelona and Norway.

“In Islam, Satan is our enemy … but I believe Satan is also an enemy of the non-Muslims.

“We advise people not to wear them,” said Harussani.

He added that Muslims had no reason to wear and glorify symbols that promoted wrong values.

Harussani said other ulama and mufti shared his opinion but they did not plan to pass any edict to ban the attire either.

Many Muslim football fans, he said, were actually unaware of the images on the emblems.

His view was shared by Johor Religious Council adviser Datuk Nooh Gadot, who had issued similar advice to Muslims on Wednesday.

Meanwhile, several Malaysian football fans have shown the “red card” to the advice by the ulama.

They voiced disapproval over social media sites such as Twitter and Facebook.

“What am I going to do with all my Manchester United jerseys? And my sons’ jerseys?” said a Twitter user.

Some even went to the extent of accusing the ulama of supporting Liverpool, Manchester United’s archrival.

Manchester United Malaysia Fan Club, which boasts 7,000 members, when contacted, declined to comment.

Checks at various sports retail outlets in shopping malls revealed that the famous red jerseys of the club were still on sale.

Sales personnel on duty said the new version of the club’s attire was selling like hot cakes as it had arrived just a few days ago after its global launch on July 15.


UPDATE 25 JULY 2010: Another scramble to damage-control:

Muslims should know what to wear, says mufti

JOHOR BARU: Muslims should know what to wear and what not to, Johor Mufti Datuk Tahrir Shamsuddin said.

He said a Muslim should not put on shirts or jerseys that had images of satan, alcohol and crests of other religions.

He said there was no need for a fatwa on the issue as “Muslims should know their boundaries”.

Tahrir was commenting on the controversy involving the Manchester United jersey, with several prominent Islamic scholars urging Muslims not to don the Premier League club’s jersey because the emblem features a devil.

“If Muslims want to show their support for their favourite teams, they should find a better way instead of wearing such a jersey,” he said.

Perak Mufti Tan Sri Harussani Zakaria had said on Friday that jerseys with devils, crosses or skulls promoted the wrong values for Muslims but that did not mean they should be banned.

Apart from United, who are also known as The Red Devils, other football teams whose crests carry images deemed unIslamic like the cross are Brazil, Portugal, Serbia, Barcelona and Norway.

A Malay daily recently quoted Johor Religious Council adviser Datuk Nooh Gadot as saying that wearing such jerseys were forbidden in Islam.


Someone writes in about the silliness of fear-of-plus-symbols as I have, but there’s one caveat I’d like to point out: The cross symbol found on the jerseys of various teams actually does stem from Christianity, as it comes from the flags of those nations where the cross symbol is an intentional religious reference. Thus it is stretching it a bit to claim that the cross symbol on football jerseys is as symbolically meaningful as a road intersection.

Reading too much into symbols

IT is rather amusing to read the statement by the former mufti of Johor Datuk Nooh Gadut cautioning Muslims against wearing the Manchester United jersey because of the devil emblem.

This is further extended to include all other jerseys of international football teams that incorporate the image of the cross in their team emblems. According to him, such practices are tantamount to worshipping symbols of other religions and the devil.

Such interpretations reflect a pedestrian perception of symbolism and designs.

One should be able to lift one’s critical perception from the morass of iniquity of misconstruing such images as having ulterior motives.

Perhaps there is a need to reflect on the nature and principles of semiology and design.

For example, a cross is a basic design tool; two lines crossing at right angles. This graphic design is ubiquitous in every facet of our lives, like road intersections, grid lines, and all other natural and man-made manifestations using two lines crossing at right angles.

Granted that the cross is the religious symbol of Christianity, but the basic design pattern is not the preserve of this religious belief, and should not be construed to only have such religious connotation on every occasion.

The image of the devil is another point of contention. Is that truly the devil?

In Islam, we do not have any iconographic representations of Allah or the devil and we are forbidden to give pictorial representation of our prophets.

I believe those who bought the jerseys were not even aware of the symbolic interpretations of the graphic design; only that they represent the identity of their favourite football clubs.

Their main objective is to identify and support world-class football clubs, which is a healthy preoccupation.

It does not indicate any religious associations. Therefore, those in influential positions need to exercise caution when making such interpretations so as not to confuse people.


George Town.

But then again

Crosses on flag not a Christian symbol

Thursday July 29, 2010

In the article “No religious ban on MU jerseys“ (The Star, July 24), you printed the Swiss flag as one of the controversial crests.

I have to, of course, leave it up to the relevant Muslim authorities to determine whether wearing the Manchester United T-shirt is tantamount to devil worshipping.

However, in one respect I can alleviate any doubt over this issue and it is regarding the Swiss flag.

It is historically well documented that the Swiss flag has nothing to do whatsoever with a Christian symbol. Its origin dates back to our war of independence against the House of Habsburg.

In their struggle for freedom which started in 1291, the simple peasants had no uniforms and to distinguish themselves from the enemy foot soldiers, the Swiss hastily sewed two white, crossed ribbons on their clothes to make the distinction easier between friend and foe.

They followed this practice in a series of wars of liberation and adopted later the two white crossed bars as the national flag of the Swiss Confederation, which incidentally will celebrate its 719th anniversary next Sunday, Aug 1.

Embassy of Switzerland,
Kuala Lumpur.

Well, I suppose he’d be the expert on it… Although Wikipedia mentions that the oldest depiction actually includes Jesus on the cross!


Hahaha! Someone recommended my post to Malaysia Today:

I don’t have any control over the comments there, mind you!

Also trackbacked by Dayak Baru.


PS. See also previous examples of similar mentality, only worse – applying it to members of those countries’ teams!

92 Responses to “Malaysian Experts on Islam: Wearing Symbols of Other Religions is Badwrong”

  1. Mohidin Jamal Says:

    WTF! if they deem it as a no-no, let them be, man…whats with you?

  2. Scott Thong Says:

    What, man? I totally agree with them! Didn’t even say bad things about them, man. See, I even gave so many examples of where else you gotta be careful of those insidious Christian symbols. So helpful, no? Man.

  3. new fart Says:

    yes jamal man..see, we are just being helpful that’s all! just to make sure you lots don’t miss out on the other symbols mah…cannot ah?

  4. wits0 Says:

    About ’em “..insidious Christian symbols”, da only way to avoid them is not to enter modern buildings or wear clothes! Animal hides and banana leaves are beckoning!

    Everyone knows how reinforced concrete uses criss-crossing steel rods for their trellis/lattice frame. And how are fabrics spun, if not in numerous iccriss-crossing pattern?!

  5. kodu2 Says:

    hehehehehe.. very funny!!! muslim, then how to teach your kids the symbol of ‘add’ in maths? forbid your people from learning maths or change the symbol? kah..kah..i’m dying to laugh!!! so pity, why make yr world so complicated? 1 + 1= 2, how to write this in muslim term? or do you need to delete the symbol + in your keyboard/computer? hayaaa… susa looo…

  6. ruyom Says:

    Many malays don’t like to admit it, but once upon a time, they were not Muslims like everyone else!

    Malays were part of the migration of Polynesian peoples whose original home was Yunnan in China to South East Asia in what is known as Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia……….

    At that time the Orang Asli were already well settled in the malay Peninsula, so that makes them the most legitimate of the bumis.

    Malays were animists then for hundreds of years until Indians crossed Bay of Bengal to South East Asia and spread Indian and Hindu culture to the peoples there.

    Hence we had the great Hindu kingdoms which later also became Buddhist kingdoms of Langkasuka, Srivijaya, Majapahit – but main thing to note is that racially the peoples were malays and speak old malay language.

    Islam only came to South East Asia from 1400 after foundation of Malacca by Parameswara. Again from India crossed Bay of Bengal and spread Islam to South East Asia. Malacca sultans were among the first converts and the rest is history.

    Please note that the malays have been Muslims for only 600 years and have been Hindus/Buddhists very much longer – at least 2000 years. Malay culture is very much influenced by Hindu culture including Sanskrit words like the wayang kulit, raja, maharaja, etc.

    Unlike Javanese, who are proud of their Hindu/Buddhist past reflected in great empires like Srivijaya and Majapahit, malays are generally ashamed to dwell on their pre Islamic Hindu/Buddhist past.

    On the contrary some malays try to be like the Arab wannabes, trying to cleanse the malays of their Hindu/Buddhist past – in this even the songs and films of P Ramlee become victimized!

    If Islam had not come to South East Asia, malays would still be Hindus/Buddhists like the Balinese which is not a bad idea, as Balinese are considered very peaceful people.

  7. fargowin Says:

    The Chinese came to Malaysia more than 1000 years ago, while the Indians came here almost 1030 years ago. Kota Gelanggi and Lembah Bujang are proof of these early settlements.

  8. aston Says:

    Then let me re-quote Lee Kuan Yew:

    Singaporean politician Lee Kuan Yew of the PAP, who publicly questioned the need for Article 153 in parliament, and called for a “Malaysian Malaysia”.

    In a speech, Lee Kuan Yew bemoaned what would later be described as the Malaysia social contract:

    “According to history, malays began to migrate to Malaysia in noticeable numbers only about 700 years ago. Of the 39% malays in Malaysia today, about one-third are comparatively new immigrants like the secretary-general of Umno, Dato Syed Jaafar, who came to Malaya from Indonesia just before the war at the age of more than thirty. Therefore it is wrong and illogical for a particular racial group to think that they are more justified to be called Malaysians and that the others can become Malaysians only through their favour.”

    Eventually, and Singapore became an independent nation in 1965, with Lee Kuan Yew as its first prime minister.

  9. oversee Says:

    The malays do not exist as a unique tribe but are the result of centuries of mix amongst various ethnic groups – migrants from Yunnan, Polynesia, Java, Sumatra, Turkey, Arabia, India, Siam, Cambodia, Laos.

    Once they began to populate the Malayan Peninsula – (which wasn’t named for the malay race but derives from the Tamil word for “mountain” – malai) they figured it would be advantageous to claim ownership of the land by dubbing it Tanah Melayu.

    It was mostly a political part of various pirate bloodlines to create their own Promised Land.

  10. romsam Says:

    It is no secret that Parameswara was an Indian and a Hindu prince until he married a Pasai princess and converted to Islam and adopted the Persian name Iskandar Shah.

    There seemed to be no problem telling the truth as I just expressed it during my school days. The school textbooks were quite clear on this – but not today, I am told.

    Once again the insecure Umno-led government had to wipe out any references to this famous Melaka prince as being Hindu and belonging to the powerful Hindu empire Srivijaya.

    So all of a sudden our museums, school textbooks etc, all refer to Parameswara as a malay prince. Umno lying, mind you, is not confined to the mainstream newspapers.

  11. kok Says:

    Well, UMNO managed to achieve one thing. The BTN-type morons, have been overwhelmingly successful in brainwashing todays 27 million citizens.

    Who says that the peninsular was always called Tanah Melayu? This is a recent British term!

    Tanah Melayu was never the name until the British came and colonized the peninsular.

    Malai means hill in Tamil; as to describe the Titiwangsa range on the said peninsular since the 2nd century by the Gujerati traders who set up their formidable Hindu empire at Lembah Bujang.

  12. adipatania Says:

    I guess school should stop teaching kids to use the addition sign “+”. Instead they could use the the symbol for the “crescent” for the same purpose. But, wait a minute – what about multiplication sign? It’s also a cross “X”!!! And how about the undercase “t”? It has also a cross. Are these going to be replaced by the “crescent” sign……………… And later how are we to spell “Sex” without “x” and Datuk Nooh Gadot without “t”?

  13. Eric Mudasi Says:

    The Special Branch was of course there taking notes and later I was summoned and told not to embarrass the ustaz from JAKIM in public. I tried defending myself by arguing that what I had quoted was a fact of history.

    Never mind, they replied. You can’t expect the ustaz to engage in an intellectual debate with you. What you say may be true but the objective of the religious rehabilitation classes is to correct the misconceptions you may have about Islam and to guide you back to the right path.

    You are supposed to listen to the lectures, not debate with the ustaz and embarrass him in public.

    So I expect the same holds true here. We are supposed to only listen to what these religious people preach and not question or contradict them. And when they ask us to all unite under Umno for the sake of Islam we are not supposed to question that.

    Why the hell did God give us a brain then if we are not supposed to use it?

  14. wits0 Says:

    Look at Malusia’s Jalur Gemilang and note that the red and white stripes are far more prominent a feature which emulates the Old Glory. Meaning democracy should be the primary concern of the country.

    Soon, if the religious bigots have their way, these may well demand that the crescent moon becomes the most prominent symbol on it!

  15. wits0 Says:

    “Why the hell did God give us a brain then if we are not supposed to use it?”

    IOW, We have an Ideology that trumps Reason to benefit the likes of Jakim.

  16. Talos Says:

    Bloody hell, thank God I’m not waving or wearing any **** Malaysian flag, with the brazen symbols of ****** and Isis upon it!! I’m staying away from the crescent as it’s not from my religion! It would symbolize ****, **-*** or any of those other deities who are not my God so thank (my) God I’m not engaging in heresy and blasphemy with these pagan/heathen symbols!!!

    I ain’t gonna use the color green either because it’s the color of Islam, or Jihad.. It’s the color of the Philosopher’s Stone, the same emerald color of *******’s crown!! Bloody hell, I ain’t damning myself with ***** worship by using Paki/PAS green!!

    Ba’al worshipers and medieval m***-worshiping heathens be gone!!!

  17. joy Says:

    ‘..we are just being helpful that’s all!’

    no tq, we dont need yr help man..we know our destiny man

  18. joy Says:

    ‘The malays ….– migrants from Yunnan, Polynesia, Java, Sumatra, Turkey, Arabia, India, Siam, Cambodia, Laos.’

    Bullsh*t! Its all start from here man.. start and listen to this man- very carefully-

    After listen,go home and can start to tell yr tales to some other morons like you..

  19. mykantree Says:

    Should all Muslims who have hindu names like Raja and so forth change them to Mohamad then? The Malaysian royalty should also have their changed as they also titled themselves after hindu names.

    What a ridiculous bunch of clowns who chooses what they think a true and good muslim should be rather than what Islam itself preaches. Nothing but religious hypocrisy and demagogy.

  20. wits0 Says:

    “..Nothing but religious hypocrisy and demagogy.”

    Were it not so, Harussani Zakaria would have been in the cooler for sedition a long time ago.

  21. burn Says:

    it is just an icon!
    have got nothing to do with religion.
    simple to understand!
    many are trying to make an issue out of it,
    and it become more complicated from then on.
    if only one knows how to differentiate the differences.

  22. Simon Thong Says:

    Football is a religion in England. Rugby is a religion in NZ. Cricket is a religion in India and Pakistan.

  23. wits0 Says:

    One is never born a Football, a Rugby or Cricket ball! And these balls never war among themselves. They attract, nor compel.

  24. Scott Thong Says:

    Talos, sorry but I decided to redact some parts of your comment in order to preempt any ISA action against me (as the blog owner).

    Hope you understand.

  25. Simon Thong Says:

    But one is born into a family that are football club supporters. A ManU supporter is one cosz his father is, and so was his grandfather…the longer the history of a club, the greater the number of generations who worship it..

    In NZ, I learnt quickly not to criticize the All Blacks. Someone might give you a black eye. The three gods were Rugby, beer and horse racing.

  26. Talos Says:

    Hi Simon, what I wrote was tongue-in-cheek but of course, with a bit of reading anyone can find out the connection of the star + crescent symbol to the Egyptian Isis and Ishtar, or that green is the color of the Lapis Exilis, one of Lucie’s crown jewel (according to Manly P. Hall’s “Secret Teachings of all Ages”) and is hence the color used by occultists for centuries.

    Please redact all you want because we know what the fascists will do. If they don’t lock you up, they’ll just threaten to kill you. Write on!

  27. Scott Thong Says:

    Scott actually… But thanks for the info, appreciate the snarking!

  28. Zack T Says:

    Hahaha. It can get tricky when both Simon and Scott comments… If not alert, you might mistaken one for the other. hahaa.

    Be kind, people. Some of the things you all say are too exaggerated. ‘t’, ‘+’, ‘x’, etc…
    They were mainly talking about things that are forbidden or ‘haram’ in Islam… i.e. alcohol (although it will be abundantly overflowing in ‘paradise’), and the devil (although Satan’s handiwork will be in ‘paradise’, refer alcohol)…

    And obviously crosses, because their Jesus / Isa supposedly never went anywhere near the cross, let alone died on it.
    Instead Allah ‘called’ Isa up to himself before the evil evil Jews could grab hold of him.. but instead of having no Jesus to crucify… Allah disguises someone (not one Muslim knows who) as Isa and this man was crucified and died… And because of Allah’s trickery/con, Christianity was born… one of the largest and most influential ‘cult’ during those times… for centuries, and to the point of corrupting the word of Allah to incorporate Jesus’s death, then resurrection…
    And then… after 600 years later, came Muhammad to set things straight again.

    So yeah.. be kind. They’re just doing what they believe is right and pleasing to their God. Thank God we don’t have such dictatorship as Islam.

    And speaking of origins of Malays and who came to the land of Malaysia first…
    I’d like to know about the ‘Hang Tuah/Hang Jebat’ conspiracy… the one that claims these great warriors of old Tanah Melayu were actually Chinese.. e.g. Hang Tu Ah, Hang Je Bat, etc.
    Anyone has the low-down on that? Scott?

  29. Zack T Says:

    Oh… and Scott… be kind.. They’re just imposing this rule on Muslims…
    No need to apply that logic on other religions. That isn’t the issue anyways. haaha.
    So yeah.. when playing a game, they cannot use any med/first aid packs/kits since the crosses on those things symbolize healing/recovery, no? Something that Jesus promises to give spiritually?
    Instead of the crescent… which can be taken as symbol of lunacy (which does come from the word Lunar, if not mistaken).. Without in DotA, the Lunar Priestess uses the crescent moon’s power to hurt/kill.. not heal.. Wahhahaha! XD

  30. Zack T Says:

    Sorry… correction: “Even in DotA…”

  31. Nagin Says:

    Go to HELL !!
    If you don’t like living here in Malaysia just migrating to another country like your kiasu ancestors BIGOT !

  32. Talos Says:

    If you savages don’t like living in the 21st century like all human beings, please fark off to sh*thole countries where you can continue to practice your Dark Ages bullsh*t

  33. Ron Says:

    It’s funny that Christians are quick to dismiss the ‘lunacy’ in other religions, yet consider it completely rational to believe in magic fruit, talking snakes, talking brushfires and a god who quite literally talks out of his àss. 8)

  34. wits0 Says:

    Christians aren’t the only people to mix up Symbolism with Reality. In fact all cultures and traditions do that, in varying degree. At least Christian fundamentalism is not built around jihads.

  35. Talos Says:

    All religions have their fair share of nutcases and silly moments in their scriptures. However, only one religion claims that their scripture is the literal word of God that is the absolute truth and is immutable through all time. This religion’s god speaks only one language and will listen to only one language, and the scripture that is replete with rubbish, fairytales and errors is supposed to be the literal word of God that is copied off some mythical eternal tablet in heaven.

    Uhmm.. yeah.

  36. juslo Says:

    oh my god…

    what did i tell u…

    finally, my ‘prophecy’ has come true!!!!!

    Tuesday, November 25, 2008
    Fatwa Bans Red Devils and Christian Clubs

    so now, i “did not” make this up, aye??

  37. juslo Says:

    Football jersey fatwa came true…

    This is Plagiarism!!!

    Wednesday, July 21, 2010
    OMG – Juslo’s Prophecy Came True!!

  38. Zack T Says:

    hmm… speaking of Man U club… doesn’t that mean that AirAsia is in trouble then? Cause they’re getting sponsorship from the Manchester United Club, right? (Hence the sales of the Man U merchandises)

    So now AirAsia must reject such ties with Man U Club.. or face charges from the government of this *supposedly* Muslim country.

  39. Simon Thong Says:

    no problem, bznes is bznes

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  42. SkinHeadOIOI Says:

    this is quite embarrassing….but what to do…..

  43. andreas Says:

    Walawei, do we have to go to that extend to show our piousness ? When we have idiots helming religious dept. the output will be disastrous. Whatever that comes out of our mouth (lies, profanities etc) is more sinful than symbols that we hold, no.

    Take a look at the currency of the world. Some have dragon (symbol of devil), third eye above pyramid (new world order), snake, places of worship (temple) and most of all image of the DEAD past President or even head of state. Mind you, we are carrying all these notes in our purse. So how now ? Do we need to surrender it to Datuk No Goodot !!!

    Since we do not worship these notes, me think it is ok leh. There are many politicians out there who are worshipping the $$$, pictures of past President who are all dead already, now how lah ?

    Me think if we listen to Datuk No Goodot and gang, we will all have to travel on camels again. Live like the badawi of old and sleep in tents or even caves. For we cannot travel to any Europeans country due to their symbols all over their countries. May as well send back all our planes since those planes were designed and built by nations related to the Jews.

    Aiyah, may as well burn all those currencies since financial systems were deemed to be controlled by the Jewish people as per Dr MM leh. Burn all things related to our enemies i.e anything Jewish or + or any other religion. What will happen to us then ?

    Don’t just be religious bigots ? Read and understand your own HolyBook more. Don’t just listen to religious leaders who only know what is good for his own kind but that all others are bad and evil. Do you not know that Christ/Jesus/Isa/Yeshua is mentioned many more times than that of SAW PBUH Nabi Mohd ? So what happen now ? Error in the HolyBook ? Go find out and be sincere to search for more truth.

    This world needs more people that build bridges and not wall. We are afterall of one race i.e the human race. Let God alone be the ultimate judge and man just remains as man.

  44. Simon Thong Says:

    I wonder if the guy will propose a BAN on the telecast of Premier League matches on Astro. Too many football teams have the cross, beer advert, etc..I wonder if he drives a Chevrolet, with a cross as a badge?

  45. Talos Says:

    Speak of Muslims being against the Chevrolet logo because they think of it as a cross.. it’s always funny how Muslims cause trouble all over the world but put the blame on others “provoking” them.. We know that they hate the cross, but we still have it all over the place! It’s blatant provocation, so we can’t blame them if they go apesh*t and start blowing stuff up!

    We know that they love Muhammad more than they love their own lives. So, if anyone is foolish enough to draw a cartoon of Muhammad, that’s provocation and if the Muslims go on the warpath over it, hell, don’t blame them, it’s due to provocation!

    We know that they have no regard for civil secular laws, and must only abide by the Syariah. So when we ban their ninja costumes, do not allow Syariah law to take precedence over civil laws, and do not provide enough Halal food for them (e.g. KFC in the UK), or require Muslim supermarket counter staff to handle Haram canned food and canned beer, that is all provocation!!! They have the right to wage war against civilized countries because we PROVOKED them!!

    But the worst provocation of all that the non-Muslims have unleashed upon the Muslims is the conquest of Muslim lands. Never mind the fact that a lot of these “conquests” were wars to liberate the captured lands from the Muslim invaders. Whatever lands captured by the Muslims since 600AD until today must remain as the Muslims’. If there are any foreign power in control, it is a must to wrest those nations back into the fold of Islam.

    By resisting Islamic imperialism and conquest, we are PROVOKING the Muslims!!! When they start World War 3 to conquer the world, it’s because we asked for it, because we PROVOKED the Muslims by not converting en-masse to Islam and make this world 100% Islamic.. until they have no choice but to obey Surah 8 and 9 to submit the whole world to Allah due to our stubbornness and provocation!

  46. Scott Thong Says:

    With the caveat and ISA-avoidance, of course, that only the extremists are like that.

  47. Talos Says:

    Correct correct correct.

    Funny how it seems that only extremists migrate out of their craphole barbaric countries and into modern Western countries, and they’re bringing their barbaric beliefs and social culture with them to pollute civilized human societies.

    And funny how the “extremists” are anything but fringe, and the “open-minded” ones are anything but “good Muslims”.

  48. Zack T Says:

    Right, Talos… And I agree that Muslims love Muhammad very much… a lot more than they claim to (or maybe even realize they do)…
    They always claim that ‘We love Jesus too… as much as you do..’ or ‘We love all of Allah’s prophets.’ Even their Quran speaks about ‘treating all the prophets of Allah equally’.

    Then we look at South Park… Who have been drawing Jesus for season after season… and even their first movie had a huge parody of Jesus vs Satan, etc…
    Not a word from the Muslims… No death threats, or complaints, nada.. zip.. nil.

    Then a man in a bear costume appears… said to be Muhammad inside the bear costume…
    We get riots, protests, death threats, angry hate mails, etc….
    Some of the South Park developers got so scared to bits that I know of at least one that practically grovelled at the Muslims’ feet….. but was continue to still be threatened and ridiculed by them anyways..

    Muhammad is a greater god than Allah Himself…. Allah is just some ‘unimaginable’ force in the background… supposedly pulling the strings…
    While Muhammad is the front man who is high and in charge and no prophets before him matters… And whatever the older prophets said that contradict Muhammad’s messages; they were all corrupted by someone somehow somewhere…
    Whatever Muhammad says is 100% true… The Quran says so!

    It’s circular reasoning, my misguided friends! The Quran isn’t the standard of truth to measure whether the Bible is true… It’s the Bible that’s supposed to be the standard to measure the truth of the Quran!
    6 centuries head-start, baby!!

  49. Talos Says:

    Hey, don’t forget. The New York jihad? Remember? The failed car bomb attempt near Time Square? The bombers were Muslims, and they admitted that they wanted to bomb the sh*t out of Americans because they’ve had enough of those pesky infidels insulting Islam. What the MSM tried their best to deflect attention towards was the fact that the failed car bomb was parked outside Viacom’s office in New York. Viacom is the one behind Comedy Central, who just a few weeks before the jihad attempt broadcast the 200th and 201st episodes of South Park that made fun of all religions, especially the Scientologists.

    BUT.. out of all the faiths that were jabbed at, only the Muslims decided to reply with violence.

    Hardly surprising. From the fruits, we have come to know the tree very, very well indeed. And the fruit has fallen right at the feet of the tree. Back in Muhammad’s time, a young girl by the name of Asma bint Marwan “insulted Islam and Muhammad” by casting doubts on his prophethood, and ridiculed the new religion that he was introducing. Muhammad reacted to this insult by asking which one of his loyal followers would assassinate her. One of them did, and Muhammad was pleased after Asma was murdered.

  50. Ron Says:

    If the standard of truth is based on the age of extant ancient texts, then the Code of Ur-Nammu (ca. 2050 BCE) would have be the code against which all other texts are measured.

  51. wits0 Says:

    “..However, only one religion claims that their scripture is the literal word of God that is the absolute truth and is immutable through all time…”

    That’s what happens when its believers are soundly stuck in Ignorance about the Nature of Reality, with an awful anthropomorphic Deity.

  52. Zack T Says:

    Ron says…
    “If the standard of truth is based on the age of extant ancient texts…”

    Yes it would…. but no it’s not based on ‘age of extant ancient texts’..

    Quran claims to uphold the teachings of ‘Allah’ of the OT and even calls Muslims to ‘ask the people of the Book’ regarding what ‘their scripture’ teaches.

    Since the Quran says it supports/agrees with the Torah, Psalms and ‘Injil’/Gospel, therefore it needs to be compared with the bible.

    But when modern Muslims do so… they realized there is practically nothing coherent between the teachings of the bible and the teachings of the Quran..
    So, they conclude ‘the bible has been corrupted’; they will accept verses in the bible that supports Islam and then reject the ones that doesn’t…
    instead of concluding that ‘the Quran is false’.

  53. wits0 Says:

    “Ron says…
    “If the standard of truth is based on the age of extant ancient texts…”

    Yes it would…. but no it’s not based on ‘age of extant ancient texts’..”

    It is based on past Human experience, Common Sense and Realization of an individual nature rather than from the dogmatic ethos of any herdish crowd.

    Truth, per se, does not exist to empower any elitist group, within an institution, to enable them to be parasites!

  54. Simon Thong Says:

    Atheists are elitist, and parasitical: they feed on the host (believers every where).

  55. wits0 Says:

    “Atheists are elitist, and parasitical: they feed on the host (believers every where).”

    Blind and ignorant atheists are like that, Simon, not reflective and learned ones.

    Believers in blind faith rather than reason are as toxic.

  56. Simon Thong Says:

    Believers use their mind. Atheists use their mind, or so I hope. Nothing is absolute; it’s the weighing of the evidence that decides for each one, and that brings subjectivity into it. The evidence, for me, falls heavily towards God. An atheist, weighing the evidence, chooses the other side. Subjectivity is involved, too. It is the claim for total objectivity, for Reason, that smacks of arrogance. Reflective and learned ones? Surely there are. But google the word, and what you read is strident anti-faith dribble.

  57. wits0 Says:

    “..the claim for total objectivity..”

    Meaning solid tangible proof according to the innate limitation of the present paradigm set by Science?

    Never can be possible thus.

    Scientist cannot measure/gauge the Fourth Dimension with tools which they can only wrought in the Third Dimension, e.g. Better forsake that inane hope.

    If one can envision that our (not absolute) Reality is Mind wrought, then it becomes plausible to understand that the only tool we have to realize and understand the nature of Mass Mind’s Creation is our own individual Mind. This happens to be also the higher understanding of the Buddha’s teachings and that’s why meditation was prescribed.

    Apparently, Realization(in its varying degree) is not bequeath-able or crowd-enabled but earned through individual mental inquiry and effort.

  58. Ron Says:

    Reason is a cognitive tool for gaining knowledge, whereas faith is an appeal to the inadequacy of reason. It’s as simple as that.

  59. wits0 Says:

    Reason and faith are like the Ying Yang symbol. There is no ‘clean break’.

    The colors of White and Black are often regarded as different shades of grey.

  60. logbook Says:

    “Raëlism is a UFO religion that believes that all life on Earth was created in scientific labs by a species of extraterrestrials. Members of this species appeared human and when having personal contacts with the descendants of the humans they made, they were mistaken for angels, cherubims, or gods. Followers of Raëlism, the Raëlians, call these extraterrestrials by the Hebrew word, Elohim. Raëlians believe messengers, or prophets, of the Elohim include Buddha, Jesus, and many others who informed humans of each era. The founder of Raëlism, members claim, received the final message of the Elohim and that its purpose is to pacify and inform the world about Elohim, who wish to be welcome only if humans are peaceful.”

  61. Zack T Says:

    logbook & Raelism

    Now that’s the kind of religion an atheist like Richard Dawkins would gladly accept… since he already admitted to believe that life originated from ‘aliens’ that visited the earth who knows how long ago… after all.. evolution is an impossibility to explain how life started from non-life…

  62. Scott Thong Says:

    Raëlism is a UFO religion that believes that all life on Earth was created in scientific labs by a species of extraterrestrials… Raëlians believe messengers, or prophets, of the Elohim include Buddha, Jesus, and many others who informed humans of each era. – logbook

    Whereas the Scientologists believe that Buddha, Jesus, and many others were agents of the evil alien Xenu sent to misguide humans away from becoming Cleared Thetan Clear or something.

  63. Scott Thong Says:

    Reason is a cognitive tool for gaining knowledge, whereas faith is an appeal to the inadequacy of reason. It’s as simple as that. – Ron

    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. – Hebrews 11:1

    Christian faith is not supposed to be blind and unthinking, but based on experience – we believe in God for the same reason that you do not test your mother’s cooking for poison every mealtime. After my personal over-coincidental experience, it would be the opposite of reason to deny any possibility of there being an outside force rigging the probability dice.

  64. Ron Says:

    When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I believed like a child. When I became a man, I put childish fairy tales behind me. — Logic 101

    “Christian faith is not supposed to be blind and unthinking…”

    But that is precisely what is commanded: an unwavering belief in an invisible puppet master — bridled with conflicting attributes and human emotions — conjured up centuries ago by superstitious minds huddled in fear trying make sense of their world.

    And correct me if I’m wrong, but the story you related in an earlier comment gave no indication that even the slightest attempt was made to investigate a natural explanation for your experiences; just an automatic “god done it” presumption — case closed.

  65. wits0 Says:

    The “Independence Day” Hollywood sci fi flick of ’96 was an entertaining one. The scene showing the Raëlism types being incinerated atop a NY skyscraper in that first energy from the invading UFO blast was a rather mirthful one actually.

    Scientologists? Imagination gone long windedly wacko. Worse thing to presume is that mankind is owned – to please some wrathful personified creator Deity and thereby take little responsibility for their own actions.

  66. Scott Thong Says:

    And correct me if I’m wrong, but the story you related in an earlier comment gave no indication that even the slightest attempt was made to investigate a natural explanation for your experiences; just an automatic “god done it” presumption — case closed. – Ron

    You’re right – I did not investigate the possibility that someone who knows me pulled strings behind the scenes to coordinate a church worker near where I was living, senior management in a public listed company based 950km away, every other employer I had approached to avoid me, by extension Yahoo/Jobstreet/etc to get data on what employers I had approached, and my very self through subliminal messaging that influenced me to pick at least one employer that happens to have operations in said place 950km away.

    So yes, Ron, you have utterly and humiliatingly exposed my incapability of deductive reasoning here. /sarc

    Heck, how would you theorize what happened? Sheer blind dice? I’m seriously interested to know – there may actually be a logical and non-improbable explanation that I haven’t considered.

  67. Simon Thong Says:

    It can’t be coincidence that Ron comes to this blog and returns time and again…

  68. Simon Thong Says:

    Ron defines faith and reason in a way that suits him, and concludes, “it’s as simple as that.” He is simplistic. He doesn’t even realise how inadequate reason is, even after stating it. Can’t see the truth right in front of him? Mind so crooked that he can’t see straight?

  69. Ron Says:

    Scott, I already addressed probable reasons for all your miracles here:

    … and you immediately blew them off.

    I also demonstrated how probability calculations applied to an event that’s already occurred can seem astronomically large in retrospect:

  70. omega Says:

    “Atheists are elitist, and parasitical: they feed on the host (believers every where).”

    Johann Hari has said that we shouldn’t pray for Hitchens. I find myself in a quandary: upon hearing that he has throat cancer, of course I instantly want to pray for him. Hitchens is, but a life-enhancer. Even when he’s in vicious mode, his prose fizzes and dazzles: “Shepherds”, he informed Canadians during a lecture tour, “don’t look after sheep because they love them — although I do think some shepherds like their sheep too much. They look after their sheep so they can, first, fleece them and second, turn them into meat. That’s much more like the priesthood as I know it.”

    I would like to get on my knees and say the “Our Father” for someone for whom I have a sneaking admiration.

  71. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    And correct me if I’m wrong, but the story you related in an earlier comment gave no indication that even the slightest attempt was made to investigate a natural explanation for your experiences; just an automatic “god done it” presumption — case closed.

    – Ron

    The investigations after investigation by atheist scientists so have yet to conclude a concrete answer. Question like “where did matters come from”,
    or, “non-living matters can turn life/living” etc remain unsolved, unanswered. Yet atheists made up their mind already on something which their cannot explain.

    If God is not creating things, it must be life came crawling out of rock. Sand crystal, pebbles, dust particle can turn life ?? Where is the answer. Please explain.

    If, before the ‘big bang’ there was gaseous form. where did those gaseous particle come from, and why ?.BEFORE gas, what were there? Please explain.

  72. omega Says:

    The participation of women in the church service, with men and women singing together and studying the Bible, was viewed with a range of emotions: from a sign that society was collapsing when cobblers and women could debate the meaning of the Bible (even the Protestants were sometimes alarmed at the effects of their doctrine about “the priesthood of all believers”), to a conviction that Protestant worship must involve some kind of orgiastic rituals.

    Prices had also risen very sharply between the beginning of the century and the 1560s, especially the prices of food, fuel, and shelter. This might seem irrelevant to matters of religion, but the sense of stress about making ends meet, increasing homelessness and poverty in the towns, a sense of anxiety about the future, and all the other things that go with this kind of economic pressure make for a fearful and hostile society looking for scapegoats.

    Many Catholics felt that the toleration of heresy in their midst was like a disease in the body of Christ that threatened the very contract between God and his people. There was an increasing rhetoric among the popular preachers to purge this infection to restore God’s favor and with it, social stability.

  73. omega Says:

    The most descriptive term for Mullah is parasite. A Mullah begins his career as a parasite, lives as a parasite and dies as a parasite, simply because he contributes absolutely nothing to the necessities of life, yet gobbles disproportionately more of whatever resources he can divour.

    As a true parasite, a Mullah’s very survival depends on others. It is critical for a Mullah to procure and maintain docile obedient hosts. A flock of gullible ignorant fanatics make excellent hosts and the Mullahs’ main task is to keep the sheep in their pen by hook or crook. They scare the flock by horror stories of hell and entice them by the promise of unimaginable glorious paradise if and only if they behave and keep on supplying them with milk, wool and meat.

  74. wits0 Says:

    “As a true parasite, a Mullah’s very survival depends on others. ”

    This sort of parasites can succeed because the others cannot leave the compulsive Cult on pains of death.

    In another society, such a type of parasites lost their fangs a long time ago.

    Ron refuses to place things in their proper perspective and lump all monotheistic societies together in moral equivalence – as all EQUALLY bad! He is promoting this well known leftist idiotarian dogma.

  75. circle Says:

    The Rev. Mr. Jones has been consistently attracting congregations of more than 1000 people – who travel by the fleet of ex-Greyhound buses from as far away as Los Angeles and Seattle to his home in Redwood Valley, seven miles north of Ukiah, and to services such as those this weekend in San Francisco.

    Among those attracted is the assistant district attorney of Mendocino County, Timothy O. Stoen, who has affirmed in writing that the Rev. Mr. Jones has raised 40 people from the dead.

    Jones arrived in California in 1965, accompanied by 165 of his parishioners from the People’s Temple of Indianapolis, where he served as pastor.

    He is a darkly handsome, 41 year old, part-Cherokee who is an ordained minister of 1.9 million member the Disciples of Christ (Christian) Church.

    By Rev. Lester Kinsolving
    Examiner Religion Writer
    [Monday, Sept. 18, 1972]

  76. circle Says:

    Steven Alan Hassan, cult counselor and mind control expert, is the Nationally Certified Counselor and licensed Mental Health Counselor who has developed the breakthrough approach to help loved ones rescue cult mind control victims.

  77. circle Says:

    When I saw a news photo of you wearing a tee-shirt that said “Cult Member” as you left the Kabbalah Learning Centre (KLC) in Los Angeles, I decided to write this open letter to you. It saddens me to see you mock the suffering of countless numbers of people who have unwittingly been recruited into destructive cults. I am one of those people who dropped out of college, donated my bank account and thought that I was following God’s chosen representative on earth, Sun Myung Moon. In the 1970’s, I too mocked and made fun of my family and friends as well as the media! How could they ever think that I was in a cult? I “knew” that I was following God’s Will. The group turned me into a clone of its leader and I became arrogant and elitist. I was indoctrinated to think from only within the narrow confines of Moon’s messianic delusion called the “Divine Principle.” I was taught thought-stopping to eradicate “negativity” which included doubts and questions about many things. I was programmed with phobias that if I ever left the group, I would be possessed by evil spirits, like in the Exorcist movie. Do you really believe that paying KLC $26 for a piece of red string to put on your wrist will protect you from the “Evil Eye?”

  78. langsat Says:


  79. Simon Thong Says:

    Ah. I remember the Moonies, or Moonists, aka followers of Sun Myung Moon. Met someone in NZ who tricked her son into going with her there on a holiday, took his passport away, and kept him in NZ. She had rescued him from the Moonies, for whom he had been begging on the streets of KL.

  80. herodotus Says:

    Here. Now. Sharia law in New Jersey. When Obama went to Al Azhar University to speak to the ummah (worldwide Muslim community) last June and made the outrageous statement that “the struggle for women’s equality continues in many aspects of American life,” little did we know what a warning it was. How prescient. It’s here, the degradation and subjugation of women under the sharia. Foreign law, the most vile, in our nation’s courts.

    Luckily, the appellate court overturned this decision, and a Sharia ruling by an American court has not been allowed to stand. This time.

  81. Scott Thong Says:

    Scott, I already addressed probable reasons for all your miracles here:

    … and you immediately blew them off. – Ron

    And I noted then, you over-simply each one by removing specific factors and the timing that make pure coincidence much more unlikely.

    Yes, Chinese this and Chinese that… But that only minutely affects the odds on the location of the job, without touching the odds of landing the job and getting the call just then (or the fact that Johor Bahru was not even listed as the place of work in the original ad).

  82. Zack T Says:

    Ask Ron how coincidence and chance calculate in the existence of the first life on this Earth… let alone the first intelligent being.

    Even outspoken atheists like Richard Dawkin understood it’s extremely improbable that coincidence and chance are all that life required to exist… (i.e. alien visits blahblahblah)

  83. Ron Says:

    “Yes, Chinese this and Chinese that… But that only minutely affects the odds on the location of the job, without touching the odds of landing the job and getting the call just then (or the fact that Johor Bahru was not even listed as the place of work in the original ad”

    So you’re convinced that your personal qualifications, technical skills, educational background, ancestry, and references had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the hiring decision?

    I think you may be cutting yourself short.

  84. Ron Says:

    Nasaei, since you keep asking:

    The answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything is 42.

  85. Zack T Says:

    Interesting answer Ron…. though in this thread, I only see Nasaei posted once.. and he was asking for the origin of life or this universe..

    Unless you were referring to some previous posts by Nasaei that I’m not aware of.

    And interesting that Ron chose to relay on one particular source of ‘wisdom’ for the answer. I wonder where that ‘wisdom’ came from…

  86. Simon Thong Says:

    “So you’re convinced that your personal qualifications…”- Ron

    Ron seems to have missed the whole thrust of Scott’s explanation.

  87. Ron Says:

    “Interesting answer Ron…. though in this thread, I only see Nasaei posted once.. and he was asking for the origin of life or this universe..

    Unless you were referring to some previous posts by Nasaei that I’m not aware of.”

    Nasaei has asked this same question multiple times on different threads. I’ve already provided links to address those questions elsewhere, but he has chosen not to follow up on them.

  88. biltzkrieght Says:

    Visit my blog at

  89. Stalker Fairy Says:

    I just have 2 things to say: CROSSRoads exist.

  90. danial Says:

    Damn to all of you,especially simon thong,if do not know about Islam,don’t talk about it,typical chinese who doesn’t believe in any religion (freethinker).

  91. Scott Thong Says:

    Congratulations danial, you are an excellent representative of your religion.

  92. north bay graphic design Says:

    Currently it seems like WordPress is the preferred blogging platform available right now.
    (from what I’ve read) Is that what you are using on your blog?

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