Who’s Empowering Intolerance Here, Dennis Ignatius?


In a whole page rant about the ‘intolerance’ of the Americans who oppose building a moseque/Islamic centre so close to Ground Zero, veteran diplomat Dennis Ignatius manages to put forward just one line about how a similarly sensitive comparison exists in Malaysia:

Some, of course, consider that two blocks is too near. We have a somewhat similar debate in Malaysia when it comes to building churches and temples.

So no criticism or condemnation of the Malaysian condition, but Americans are bigots. Uh huh. Afraid to criticize his employer and benefactor of so many years? I’ll have to file this one under UMNOpocrisy just for that.

(Ha! See Malaysia Today featurage of post by Malaysia For All which touches on this hypocrisy from points 11 to 14!)

And of course, as with all Ground Zero Mosque apologists, he simply cannot consider how the building of a mosque/Islamic Centre at such a sensitive spot might similarly be insensitive to the family and friends of those who died in 9/11.

How would he feel if it were the other way around?

Analogy Zero

Think he would opponents of the Giant American Flag hateful phobes in that case?

In the meantime, will he use his black belt in diplomacy to persuade Saudi Arabia to stop burning and trashing Bibles as a matter of official policy? Go on, tell Muslims that burning Bibles is against what they are supposed to believe or something.

Or is his closing line actually a well camouflaged call for the Ground Zero Mosque planners to reconsider the hurtful impact their actions are having?

The best response to intolerance is for Christians and Muslims to strive to outdo each other, not with aggressive responses or irrational actions but by walking in forgiveness and overlooking each other’s misdeeds as we are both commanded to do.

Nope! Just a call to let them do whatever they please, because ‘forgiveness’.

Dennis Ignatius is the narrow minded bigot here, not emotionally wounded and grossly insulted ordinary Americans. Don’t he dare preach to me about what a Christian is supposed to be like.

(But then, he’s a diplomat – it kind of comes with the territory and immunity, doesn’t it? Good job pandering to your political masters, I’m sure they’re very pleased with their little high profile dhimmi.)

—————

UPDATE: He manages to redeem himself in my eyes though.


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320 Responses to “Who’s Empowering Intolerance Here, Dennis Ignatius?”

  1. eek&meek Says:

    This is the same plant that MoSlum President Barack Obama visited back in July and talked about the significance of manufacturing in America.
    http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/chrysler-auto-workers-busted_20100923_dk

  2. eek&meek Says:

    Once again CNN is a puppet for the most despicable pieces of flesh in the entire world!
    http://weaselzippers.us/2010/09/23/ahmanutjob-cnn-interview-netanyahu-a-skilled-killer-who-should-be-on-trial-for-killing-women-and-children/

    CNN – Crescent News Network

  3. eek&meek Says:

    Barack OBAMA,
    during his Cairo speech, said:
    “I know, too, that Islam has always been a part
    of America ‘s story.”

    AN AMERICAN
    CITIZEN’S RESPONSE:

    Dear Mr.
    Obama:

    Were those
    Muslims that were in America when the Pilgrims
    first landed? Funny, I thought they were
    Native American Indians.

    Were those
    Muslims that celebrated the first Thanksgiving
    day? Sorry again, those were Pilgrims and
    Native American Indians.

    Can you
    show me one Muslim signature on the United
    States Constitution?

    Declaration
    of Independence ?

    Bill of
    Rights?

    Didn’t
    think so.

    Did
    Muslims fight for this country’s freedom from
    England ? No.

    Did
    Muslims fight during the Civil War to free the
    slaves in America ? No, they did
    not. In fact, Muslims to this day are
    still the largest traffickers in human
    slavery. Your own half brother, a devout
    Muslim, still advocates slavery himself, even
    though Muslims of Arabic descent refer to black
    Muslims as “pug nosed slaves.” Says a lot
    of what the Muslim world really thinks of your
    family’s “rich Islamic heritage,” doesn’t it Mr.
    Obama?

    Where were
    Muslims during the Civil Rights era of this
    country? Not present.

    There are
    no pictures or media accounts of Muslims walking
    side by side with Martin Luther King, Jr. or
    helping to advance the cause of Civil
    Rights.

    Where were
    Muslims during this country’s Woman’s Suffrage
    era? Again, not present. In fact,
    devout Muslims demand that women are subservient
    to men in the Islamic culture. So much so,
    that often they are beaten for not wearing the
    ‘hajib’ or for talking to a man who is not a
    direct family member or their husband.
    Yep, the Muslims are all for women’s rights,
    aren’t they?

    Where were
    Muslims during World War II? They were
    aligned with Adolf Hitler. The Muslim
    grand mufti himself met with Adolf Hitler,
    reviewed the troops and accepted support from
    the Nazi’s in killing Jews.

    Finally,
    Mr. Obama, where were Muslims on Sept. 11th,
    2001? If they weren’t flying planes into
    the World Trade Center , the Pentagon or a field
    in Pennsylvania killing nearly 3,000 people on
    our own soil, they were rejoicing in the Middle
    East . No one can dispute the pictures
    shown from all parts of the Muslim world
    celebrating on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC and other
    cable news networks that day. Strangely,
    the very “moderate” Muslims who’s asses you bent
    over backwards to kiss in Cairo , Egypt on June
    4th were stone cold silent post 9-11. To
    many Americans, their silence has meant approval
    for the acts of that day.

    And THAT, Mr.
    Obama, is the “rich heritage” Muslims have here
    in America …

    Oh, I’m sorry, I
    forgot to mention the Barbary Pirates.
    They were Muslim.

    And now we can
    add November 5, 2009 – the slaughter of American
    soldiers at Fort Hood by a Muslim major who is a
    doctor and a psychiatrist who was supposed to be
    counseling soldiers returning from battle in
    Iraq and Afghanistan ..

    That, Mr. Obama
    is the “Muslim heritage” in America
    .

    EVERY AMERICAN
    MUST READ THIS !!

    Be Sure to
    SEND ITto All . Even Print it out and
    Send by Snail Mail !!

    Muslim
    heritage, my a$$.

  4. eek&meek Says:

    Spooky Bonus: Sami Yusuf and The Back Street Boys of the Moderate Jihad will sing … (Creepy Islamovid begins at 39 second mark)

  5. brokoli Says:

    First, she was “mentally ill,” and now she says she’s not. Then again, the insanity defense didn’t work out, anyway, and so turned out not to be useful.
    “Pakistani Woman Sentenced to 86 Years for Trying to Kill Americans,”
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703384204575510000510616196.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

  6. brokoli Says:

    At any rate, for Axelrod to plead with liberal bloggers for their help turning out the base, only to get accused of “hippie punching,” is an iconic moment in Campaign 2010.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/09/liberal_blogger_directly_confr.html

  7. Kaleen Says:

    As Christian I know God will help us if we trust and obey Jesus advice to turn the other cheek and pray for our enemies. So I think that Mr. Dennis Ignatious instruction to forgive others is only way we can make peace and live together.

  8. Scott Thong Says:

    I disagree. It is not Christian to stand for injustice, to walk by like the priest and the teacher of the law when we see others being hurt, to allow evil to go unchallenged, to ignore the plight of the needy and defenceless.

    The Ground Zero Mosque planners are hurting the feelings of thousands who had their family members killed on 9/11. The planners tell the families “You are hateful!” in response. If you are a Christian, how can you stand idly by and let this happen? How can you not even attempt to call for understanding?

    What is happening now is the mosque supporters demand ‘peace’ and ‘understanding’ and ‘tolerance’ but refuse to give any to the families of the 9/11 victims.

    Remember that we each have only two cheeks.

  9. Kaleen Says:

    Mr. Scott you must also understand that the people who want to build this place are not the same as the men who flew the planes into the buildings. It is not how we feel but what our Heavenly Father asks of us to do when we have anger in our hearts. Jesus said to Peter we must forgive seventy time sevens those who wrong against us and later in Book of James we read that our anger does not bring the righteousness of God.

    I will pray that you seek out Christ’s love in you heart.

  10. Simon Thong Says:

    Kaleen, like many people who read the Bible and know some of the verses, but don’t read the context, you misunderstand the application. The brother who is forgiven is not a non-Christian. It refers to your Christian brother, someone who belong to the same community of faith as you. It is not about how we treat non-believers. Of course, it doesn’t mean that we don’t forgive them. We do.

    But the issue here is NOT forgiveness; it is about allowing a further wrong to be added to the one done before. To allow that building means to tolerate sin, nay, to condone it. Or to even actively support sin… If Hitler were alive today, some people would say forgive him. I hope you wouldn’t be among them.

    Of course, the people now who want to build the mosque are not the same as those who flew that plane! How could they be, they’re dead! Do you know the meaning of grief, and the experience of life-long grief? Do you know what it is like to grieve and not know why your loved ones died in that place? What wrong did they do? And now, they are going to desecrate the place…That’s how the grieving feel. Think of them. Think of that.

  11. loop Says:

    ‘I will pray that you seek out Christ’s love in you heart’-Kaleen

    I’ll pray to my God The Beneficent and the Merciful will give in him the true love, guidance and show the right path on him toward Islam.

    When the time come I am very please to share him my loops.Really feel great and makes a great sounds when they clink together.

    http://www.oyemodern.com/bracelets/resin-bangles-by-loop/prod_100.html

  12. postexpress Says:

    Watch this powerful documentary on CNN International’s “World’s Untold Stories” for more about the Polish Jews who are stepping out of the shadows. Check out all the broadcast times and some of our best videos and past episodes at our new website

    Warsaw, Poland (CNN) — Pawel sits in the synagogue learning the Torah, praying and getting advice from his rabbi.

    He appears to be enjoying a happy life married to his childhood sweetheart and the mother of his two children.

    But he and Ola have traveled further than most — from hate-filled neo-Nazism through the shock and anger of learning their heritage was Jewish to taking their place in the synagogue as Orthodox Jews.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/23/poland.jewish/index.html

  13. postexpress Says:

    A computer worm that infects machines that are generally not connected to the internet has been spreading like wildfire since June. According to Symantec, makers of the Norton anti-virus system, which is one of the most popular such systems in the world, some 60% of the infections are based in Iran. Was someone trying to damage Iran’s nuclear efforts?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11388018

  14. postexpress Says:

    Obama draws applause for calling for ‘independent and sovereign Palestine’ to be admitted to UN next year

    Excuse me while I puke. The only good news out of the UN on Thursday was that the Israeli delegation stayed away from President Obama’s General Assembly speech because it was Succoth.

    President Obama’s continuing effort to bring about the replacement of the Jewish state with an Arab Muslim one (let’s face reality – a ‘Palestinian state’ is just a phase). But in fact, most of Obama’s speech dealt with Israel and the ‘Palestinians’ (Iran isn’t as big a problem in Obama’s mind). And yes, he called for another extension of the ‘settlement freeze.’

    Someone please tell me this moron will no longer be President on January 20, 2013.

  15. Scott Thong Says:

    Kaleen, of course I know that the 9/11 terrorists are not the same as the mosque planners – but do you know that the chief planner believes America is at fault for ‘inviting’ the 9/11 attacks on itself? To him, the terrorists aren’t even to blame at all!

    Thank you for your prayer, but I still feel that it is irresponsible to stand at the sidelines while a group of young punks laugh and mock the mourners at the funeral of a young boy.

    Do you consider it right for a father to ‘just forgive’ robbers as they shoot his children, rather than defending his children? The father in the latter case did not ‘turn the other cheek’ and also ‘resisted an evil man’, but I count him as more righteous than the former.

    If you ‘just forgive’ every wrong done to you, good for you. But if you ‘just forgive’ the wrong the evil do to others when you could be doing something to stop it, how can you justify that as ‘righteousness’?

    Moses did not ‘just forgive’ the Israelites who made and worshiped the golden calf, Moses corrected their wrong.

    Paul did not ‘just forgive’ Peter for avoiding eating with the gentiles while in the presence of Jews, Paul corrected Pater’s wrong.

    Jesus did not ‘just forgive’ the sellers who turned the temple courtyard into a marketplace, Jesus corrected their wrong – twice!

    So forgive, yes, but also correct the wrong!

    Therefore I will eventually forgive the haughty indifference and arrogant selfishness shown by the mosque planners and supporters – but AFTER I try and correct the wrong. Would you not agree?

  16. rotfl Says:

    What Kaleen means is that when rape is imminent, lie back and enjoy it.

  17. rotfl Says:

    It worked for Kaleen, got the loop chap all lusted up.

  18. zounds Says:

    The Texas State Board of Education has just approved a resolution aimed to “correct a ‘pro-Islamic/anti-Christian bias’ in history textbooks.” The resolution passed rather narrowly, securing a 7-6 vote shortly after a contentious debate regarding whether or not current textbooks are “whitewashing” certain impacts that Islam has had in American and world history.

    The proposed changes involve editing sections involving Christianity and Islam in a way that pleases the conservative members of the Texas State Board of Education. Yet the resolution doesn’t affect just Texans; considering the state’s massive population and its “adoption state” status — which means public school textbooks are mandated by the state, rather than by individual districts — its decisions are greatly influential to textbook publishers and are likely to affect students across the nation.
    http://www.mediaite.com/online/texas-board-votes-to-alter-pro-islamic-anti-christian-textbooks/

  19. rotfl Says:

    In the Kaleen Loop:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f7f_1285099569

  20. rotfl Says:

    That is Sharia. This is an act Muhammad approved of and participated in
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/082.sbt.html#008.082.816

  21. zounds Says:

    The resolution concludes by warning publishers the “State Board of Education will look to reject future prejudicial social studies submissions that continue to offend Texas law with respect to treatment of the world’s major religious groups by significant inequalities of coverage space-wise and by demonizing or lionizing one or more of them over others.”
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j4sqVK4MHDBAtdbpIojupT4bJD_AD9IEGUT82
    Eminently reasonable concerns.

  22. perps Says:

    Turkish general confesses to burning down a mosque, blaming it on non-Muslims in Cyprus in 1974

    “In Special War, certain acts of sabotage are staged and blamed on the enemy to increase public resistance. We did this on Cyprus; we even burnt down a mosque.”
    http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-222544-100-retired-general-confesses-to-burning-mosque-to-fire-up-public.html

    This is reminiscent of how CAIR and others have not hesitated to stoop even to fabricating “hate crimes.” They want and need hate crimes against Muslims, because they can use them as weapons to intimidate people into remaining silent about the jihad threat.

  23. weaselpop Says:

    Now chanting “USA” at a football game is offensive to Muslims
    http://weaselzippers.us/2010/09/20/academic-at-university-of-illinois-the-students-nativist-display-on-911-of-chanting-usa-at-a-football-game-is-offensive-to-muslims/

  24. postexpress Says:

    ABC Producer Wears a Hijab to Expose Muslim “Bias” in America…Fails Miserably…

    Late in the segment, Golodryga admitted, “Overt discrimination is the exception.” When an ABC producer tried the experiment in New York, the correspondent acknowledged, “Everywhere, people went out of their way to be friendly.”

    Michael Doyle of the Sacramento Bee reported on August 28, 2010, hate crimes against Muslims are rare and occur less often than violence against Jews and gays.
    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/09/24/abcs-bianna-golodryga-goes-undercover-expose-secret-muslim-bias-amer

  25. shalom Says:

    Here is one of the peaceful, non-violent stone throwers among the many rioters who are rampaging through Jerusalem.

    These latest riots were sparked when a security guard driving through an Arab neighborhood found himself being pelted with stones – possibly small pebbles like the one pictured above – and, fearing for his life, he shot one of the stone-throwers dead.

    One Jew was stabbed in the back during the funeral for the rioter.
    This photo came from the Arabic Paltimes site, which has many more photos of the rioting.
    http://paltimes.net/arabic/read.php?news_id=118480

    Right now some of the rioters are hiding in the Al Aqsa mosque.
    http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&2D9861FED95E0AA7C22577A6004E2C8C

  26. saladin Says:

    Jordanian and PalArab media is reporting that Jordan is taking bids for a huge project to improve the illumination of the Dome of the Rock at night time.
    One would think that the huge Dome is already illuminated enough:

    The reason that the Dome of the Rock needs more lighting? Because the Arabs are upset that the rebuilt Hurva synagogue is more prominent at night time:

    Hurva also is on a higher part of the Old City, which has caused much consternation among Muslims who are offended that the highest dome in Jerusalem is not Muslim.

    Yes – Jews rebuilding a synagogue has offended the Muslim world so much because they interpreted it as a game of one-upsmanship that they must win.

  27. saladin Says:

    Soon, the official Museum of Palestinian History opens with exhibits claiming all of Israel as rightfully part of Palestine. Visiting schoolchildren are told that Tel Aviv, Haifa, Beersheva, and the rest of Israel belong to them and will some day be part of Palestine. Big displays show alleged Israeli atrocities and extol heroes who’d blown themselves up killing many Israeli civilians.

    Yet these things, along with anti-Israel incitement in the Palestinian media, mosques, and textbooks, attract little foreign attention. The conflict is over, isn’t it? And to publicize such facts, journalists tell each other, would only “play into the hands of Israeli hardliners” and “undermine peace.”
    http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2010/09/future-history-of-palestine-you-want.html

  28. foomanchew Says:

    The Milblogosphere
    When the mainstream media lost touch with the military community, the military community created its own network online.

  29. foomanchew Says:

    http://www.legion.org/magazine/91195/milblogosphere

  30. rotfl Says:

    Former British MP George Galloway appealed to Egypt on Wednesday to reconsider the government’s decision to deny him entry to the country as he heads the fifth Viva Palestina convoy heading for Gaza.

    “I have no wish to have a fight with the Egyptian government; my fight is with Israel,” Galloway said in a statement issued from Paris.

    “I am already forbidden to enter Palestine by Israel. If I am now unable to enter through Egypt this amounts to an exile from Palestine, a country I have struggled for these last thirty five years and which is deep in my heart.”
    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=316927

    Wow, it sounds like Galloway is claiming a “right of return”!

    Perhaps the Egyptian policeman who was killed in the protests that his group sparked was merely a victim of his “fight against Israel.”

  31. saladin Says:

    Ahmadinejad said that “A Jewish state means a racist regime.”

    The official name of his country is The Islamic Republic of Iran.

  32. foomanchew Says:

    Also “Islamic Republic of Pakistan”

  33. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    “…Mr. Scott you must also understand that the people who want to build this place are not the same as the men who flew the planes into the buildings. It is not how we feel but what our Heavenly Father asks of us to do when we have anger in our hearts. Jesus said to Peter we must forgive seventy time sevens those who wrong against us and later in Book of James we read that our anger does not bring the righteousness of God…”
    I will pray that you seek out Christ’s love in you heart…”
    – Kaleen says.

    I understand that NO mosque will be built on the Ground Zero. The purposed most is to be built several block away from GZ. This is also subjects to Government/ authorities’ approval. So, why a mosque is so allergic to some people?

    A mosque can’t even near the ‘sacred land’ GZ? Something wrong somewhere?

    Many white / black Americans converted to Islam in the recent years..even after the tragic 9/11 incidents (really..at least 2 families whose family members died in the inceident, concerted!). Ask them, (to find out) whether they also object also to the mosque construction idea ?

    The problem is that (I think) …is “islamophobia” without concrete or ‘valid’ reasons. Bad image of Islam that has been created by bad Muslims.

    Then.. Ahmedinijad said..America was behind 9/11 ? Some Americans said that also (pls. find out their claims on the net!)

    I don’t know..

  34. esoff Says:

    America’s worst ex-President (for now) is going to Gaza next month with a delegation of ‘Elders’ in a bid to reconcile the good terrorists from Fatah with the bad terrorists from Hamas.
    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=317439

  35. esoff Says:

  36. esoff Says:

    In an interview on The Jon Stewart Show on Thursday night, the King of the ‘Palestinians,’ King Abdullah of Jordan threatened war with Israel by year’s end if the ‘settlement freeze’ is not extended.

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/thu-september-23-2010-king-abdullah-ii-of-jordan

  37. esoff Says:

    But just who does Abdullah expect to go to war? Hamas? Fatah? Surely not Jordan? He doesn’t say.

    Don’t you love how he says that ‘everybody knows’ what needs to be done? If that’s true, why hasn’t the deal happened until now?

  38. DA Fox Says:

    Criticism of Islam Is New Front in PC War, Media Expert Says

    The mere act of criticizing Islam has become an act of politically incorrect hate speech, a media analyst and free-speech advocate says, citing several incidents in recent weeks where people have been lambasted publicly for their remarks.

    “We’re living in a ‘here and now’ where no one’s allowed to say anything bad about Islam, it seems,” says Dan Gainor, vice president of business and culture at the Media Research Center.

    The media is complicit, too, Gainor said, accusing them of “zooming in on anybody who is saying anything critical of Islam.”

    “Again, it shows how PC we’ve become,” Gainor said. “Some idiot can burn a book anywhere in the country, but if you dare burn a Koran, it becomes an international incident.”

    Gainor also compared Peretz’s case to that of Molly Norris, the Seattle-based cartoonist who has gone into hiding after declaring May 20 to be “Everybody Draw Muhammad Day!” and calling for people to draw caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad. That led to death threats and the placement of Norris on an execution list by Yemeni-American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki.

    Gainor said the fact that Norris has reportedly gone into hiding to protect herself from reprisal attacks is another example of political correctness gone awry when it pertains to Islam.

    “The media is making it seem like Americans are the ones who are wrong and backwards,” he said. “But it’s the reaction that’s wrong and backward.”

  39. esoff Says:

    Pakistan: Muslims burn Christian Man for Refusing to Convert to Islam as Policeman Rapes his Wife

    http://www.nowpublic.com/world/pakistan-muslims-burn-christian-man-policeman-rapes-his-wife

  40. pinky&brain Says:

    The Ideology of Perpetual Outrage (IPO), is solely the only belief system in existence that’s becoming increasingly illegal to criticize and poke fun of, solely because it’s deemed to be the belief system of a minority class of people. On the one hand it’s always described as being a minority belief group (within the West) while on the other hand it’s always touted as being a worldwide religion with over 1.2 billion followers.

    They, the members of the multiculti PC clique insist on having it both ways, their way, which means that this major belief group with over a billion followers are being afforded with a ‘special minority’ protected class status. It’s such thinking that has led to the bizarre multicultural policies taking place within the UK and elsewhere, that treats individuals differently because they belong to “different groups”.

  41. LaMancha Says:

    Take for example this Marilyn Manson rock video in which the artist burns a copy of the bible:

    There was no outrage by the government, nor did it raise an eyebrow within the halls of the British legal system, nor should it have, but when a group of guys burn a Koran behind a pub and put it on Youtube, then automatically the Lords of Multiculturalism spring into action.
    But that’s the heart of statist driven multicultural philosophy, to divide and rule, which is something a government couldn’t hope to force upon a society that’s grounded in the ideal that it’s comprised solely of individuals.
    In such a society, identity driven politics would be deemed the divisive, counterproductive system that it is, and roundly rejected.

  42. LaMancha Says:

    SUNNI KUWAIT ANGERED BY SHI’A IMAM SAYING ISLAM’S PROPHET DIDN’T RAPE 9YR.OLD AISHA…….

    Take a wild guess which country he’s exiled in…Britain…,

    DUBAI (Al Arabiya)- The Kuwait government asked Interpol to arrest and hand over an exiled Shiite man after it had stripped him of citizenship after remarks he made about prominent Islamic figures, Kuwait’s Al-Anba newspaper reported.
    Kuwait resorted to the Interpol one day after issuing a resolution to withdraw the Kuwaiti citizenship from Yasser Habib, who made derogatory statements about Aisha, Prophet Mohamed’s wife and several of the prophet’s companions, the rding to the newspaper reported on Tuesday.
    http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/09/23/120095.html

    And how did he “insult” Aisha? He claimed she was not a six-year-old child when she married Big Mo, instead she was much older and this is child-bride myth was being used by Christians and Jews to insult Islam. No really, I’m not making that up…
    http://alqatrah.net/en/edara/index.php?id=91

  43. LaMancha Says:

    The late ayatollah Khomenie would also have a bone to pick with this imam, for the ayatollah himself married an underage girl, raped her like his ancient prophet did to Aisha, then wrote poetry about it.

  44. perps Says:

    So periodically, these both groups of Sunni and Shi’a blame, point the finger at each other for pedophilia, but but defend it as well as having strict Koranic/Islamic foundations. Sick

  45. LaMancha Says:

    Whose empowerment?

  46. perps Says:

    Is Islam About to Collapse? Egyptian Scholar Says ‘Yes’

  47. perps Says:

    “Many Muslim reformers make the mistake that they do not really want to break the chain holding the Islamic system together. They try to paint the chain in their favourite colour, and call this a ‘Reform’. I believe that the untouchable nature of the Quran stands in our way, and we need to leave this behind. Without polemicising against it or destroying it, we must simply separate ourselves from this notion that this is the word of god, providing relevant instructions for daily life in the 21st century. Post-quranic discourse means that we need to look for other explanations and solutions for our lives today.”

  48. perps Says:

    Transcript here
    http://bigpeace.com/nmay/2010/09/22/is-islam-about-to-collapse-egyptian-scholar-says-yes/

  49. loop Says:

    ‘Is Islam About to Collapse?’

    No,its about to dominate- Pastur Piero Gheddo,ROMA,Italia

  50. loop Says:

    ‘Ahmadinejad said that “A Jewish state means a racist regime.”-refer to Mark 7:26

    Islam means mercy for all -21:107- And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

    10:41- And if they call you a liar, say: My work is for me and your work for you; you are clear of what I do and I am clear of what you do.

    10:42- And there are those of them who hear you, but can you make the deaf to hear though they will not understand?

    10:43And there are those of them who look at you, but can you show the way to the blind though they will not see?

  51. loop Says:

    ‘..when rape is imminent, lie back and enjoy it.-roftl

    You look like you’ve indulged in some Hand to Gland combat!

  52. Scott Thong Says:

    Nasaei, if this:

    https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2010/07/21/analogy-zero/

    Would you find a problem with it?

  53. Scott Thong Says:

    ‘Is Islam About to Collapse?’

    No,its about to dominate- Pastur Piero Gheddo,ROMA,Italia – loop

    Islamic cleric: We will conquer Rome, and then Eastern Europe and the Americas

    Imagine if the Pope or US President declared that soon they will conquer the Muslim world. There would be protests and rioting and suicide attacks. In fact, tif going by past incidents then those things would probably kill more Muslims in Muslim nations than anything else!

  54. toilet Says:

    “You look like you’ve indulged in some Hand to Gland combat!”

    errrr you have been glanded when you were handing

  55. rotfl Says:

    Muslim tries to gland it out with Christian hands
    http://www.politico.com/click/stories/1009/in_archie_obama_v_palin.html

  56. loop Says:

    ‘..those things would probably kill more Muslims in Muslim nations than anything else!’.

    I wonder too now that you mention it.But did you ever wonder why…

    Why a Jew can grow his beard and he is just practicing his faith and he has his freedom?
    But when Muslim does the same, he is an extremist and terrorist!

    Why a nun can be covered from head to toe and she is respected for devoting her self to God?
    But when Muslimah does the same she oppressed and they are reactionary!

    When a western women stays at home to look after her house and kids she is respected because of sacrificing herself and doing good for the household?
    But when a Muslim woman does so by her Will, because Islam don’t prevent Muslim women from work they say, “she needs to be liberated”!

    Any girl can go to university wearing as she need and have her rights and freedom?
    But when Muslimah wears Hijab they prevent her from entering university!

    When a child dedicates himself to a subject he has potential.
    But when he dedicates himself to Islam he is hopeless!

    When a Christian or Jew kills someone religion is not mentioned, but when Muslim is charged with a crime, it is Islam that goes to a trial!

    When someone sacrificing himself to keep others life, he is a noble one and all respects him.
    But when a Palestinian do that to save his son from being killed, his brother’s arm being broken, his mother being raped, his home being destroyed, and his mosque being violated. He gets the title of terrorist!

    Why? Because he is Muslim!

    When there is a trouble we accept any solution? Only if the solution is in Islam, we refuse without having a look at this solution.

    When someone drive a perfect car in a bad way no one blame the car.
    But when any Muslim make a mistake or treat people in a bad manner – people say “Islam is the reason”!

    Without looking to the tradition of Islam, why people believe what the newspaper say.

  57. kahkahkahkah Says:

    Poor victimhood crap

  58. brokoli Says:

    “The Muslim world is going through an unprecedented difficult and trying time,” said the Secretary General of the 56-state Organization of the Islamic Conference, Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, on Friday.

    One might reasonably have thought that he was referring to the recent increase in violent jihad incidents in the West, perpetrated by Muslims who explained and justified their actions by reference to Islamic texts and teachings. But no, Ihsanoglu was exercised about “Islamophobia,” the invented term Islamic supremacists use to try to stifle realistic analysis of the global jihad in all its manifestations.

    “We are facing daunting challenges and severe hardships,” Ihsanoglu complained. “Islam and Muslims are under serious attack, and Islamophobia is growing and becoming more rampant and dangerous by the day.”

    It is not at all established that “Islamophobia” really is growing. In fact, the FBI has recently released data establishing that hate crimes against Muslims are comparatively rare. But if there is any actual suspicion of or negative feelings toward Muslims in the United States, it is solely and wholly the responsibility of Nidal Hasan, the Fort Hood jihadist; Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the Christmas underwear jihadist; Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, who killed one soldier and murdered another in a jihad shooting outside a military recruiting station in Little Rock, Ark.; Faisal Shahzad, the Times Square jihadist; Khaled Sheikh Mohammed and Osama bin Laden on 9/11; the London jihad bombers of July 7, 2005; and so many others.

    Yet Ihsanoglu, with an evasion of responsibility that is characteristic of Islamic supremacists, pretends that non-Muslims are growing more suspicious of Muslims and Islam not because of this, but because of some gratuitous bigotry. This is a tried and tested tactic, designed precisely to divert attention from Islamic jihad attacks and to shame and discredit those who would dare stand up to jihad (both violent and stealth) and Islamic supremacism in the West.

    Without any reference to the pandemic of jihad violence either in the U.S. or worldwide, Ihsanoglu referred instead to a “pandemic of Islam vilification” in the U.S. and Europe, and declared: “We need an all inclusive effort of OIC member states to stem this menace. That is why I firmly believe that this question of Islamophobia should figure prominently on the agenda of all OIC member states whenever they deal with their Western counterparts.”…

  59. brokoli Says:

    What Ihsanoglu and the OIC want Western states to do is limit the freedom of speech regarding Islam and jihad. In 2008 he issued a dictatorial warning: “We sent a clear message to the West regarding the red lines that should not be crossed” regarding free speech about Islam and terrorism. And he reported success: “The official West and its public opinion are all now well-aware of the sensitivities of these issues. They have also started to look seriously into the question of freedom of expression from the perspective of its inherent responsibility, which should not be overlooked.”

    Since then he has encountered success beyond his wildest dreams, for the Obama Administration has extended and broadened the Bush policy of refraining from speaking about Islam and jihad in connection with acts of Islamic jihad terrorism. The absurdity of this policy reached its apex with the official report on the Fort Hood massacre, which blithely ignored Nidal Hasan’s clear, public, and repeated adherence to Islamic jihad doctrine, his cries of “Allahu akbar” as he committed his murders, and his passing out of Korans on the morning of his massacre.

    Ihsanoglu is coming to Chicago for a conference with leaders of Hamas-linked groups such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) and the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). The mainstream media will almost certainly overlook the principal importance of the conference, and its anti-free speech agenda, and will report uncritically about the rise in “Islamophobia” and the fears among Muslims of a “backlash.” There will be no discussion at this conference of how to prevent or even limit the spread of the jihad ideology among Muslims—in other words, there will be no attempt to attack the actual causes of “Islamophobia.”

    In less Orwellian times, that would be revealing enough for anyone to see how the Organization of the Islamic Conference and its allies are using charges of “Islamophobia” as a weapon to advance the jihad no less unmistakably than Osama bin Laden did on September 11, 2001.

  60. Zack T Says:

    “Why a Jew can grow his beard and he is just practicing his faith and he has his freedom?
    But when Muslim does the same, he is an extremist and terrorist!”

    I have never heard of a criterion that states a Muslim with a beard is automatically a terrorist.
    I’ve seen many stereotypical jokes that makes fun of the idea of Muslim terrorists that always have some form of thick beard…. But I doubt that’s anything close to being a criterion to identify a Muslim terrorist.

    “Why a nun can be covered from head to toe and she is respected for devoting her self to God?
    But when Muslimah does the same she oppressed and they are reactionary!

    Any girl can go to university wearing as she need and have her rights and freedom?
    But when Muslimah wears Hijab they prevent her from entering university!”

    Now… let’s see… A nun does so because they believe GOd told them to do so to honor Him…
    A Muslim woman does so because Muhammad said for them to not do so is sin and a stumbling block for men and that if they don’t cover themselves, they’ll cause men to sin by lusting over their exposed flesh/skin.
    I don’t recall Muhammad saying that a woman covering herself is honoring God… but his main reason for that teaching was so that women would avoid causing men to sin.

    And as for the Muslim girl that is disallowed to go to uni?
    Is Hijab the one that covers from head to toe?
    Have you not heard of the numerous crimes commited by criminals who disguised themselves in Hijabs?
    Can it not be due to public safety? A hijab is a rather easy disguise to get away with and also hide lots of dangerous things in.

    “When a child dedicates himself to a subject he has potential.
    But when he dedicates himself to Islam he is hopeless!”

    I sadly have to agree with this one. If one dedicates himself/herself to study Islam (in its Arabic language even) and still choose to remain as a Muslim, either he doesn’t realize what he had just studied.. or he is deceiving himself to think Islam is a great, loving and Godly religion.

    “When a Christian or Jew kills someone religion is not mentioned, but when Muslim is charged with a crime, it is Islam that goes to a trial!”

    You would have a case….. if the New Testament taught Christians or Jews to kill anyone who rejects or goes against Christianity or God or the bible.
    You don’t have a case for Islam, because Muhammad does teach to kill everyone and anyone who goes against Islam or doesn’t convert to Islam or doesn’t humble themselves before a Muslim.

    “When someone sacrificing himself to keep others life, he is a noble one and all respects him.
    But when a Palestinian do that to save his son from being killed, his brother’s arm being broken, his mother being raped, his home being destroyed, and his mosque being violated. He gets the title of terrorist! ”

    An actual case study for this would be helpful, cause I’d like to see which news media did this.

    “When there is a trouble we accept any solution? Only if the solution is in Islam, we refuse without having a look at this solution.”

    And what might that solution from Islam be?
    Convert everyone to Muslim or subjugate them so that they feel humbled and humiliated before Muslims?
    Or forcefully enforce Sharia law on both Muslims AND non-Muslims?

    “When someone drive a perfect car in a bad way no one blame the car.
    But when any Muslim make a mistake or treat people in a bad manner – people say “Islam is the reason”!”

    When someone read the manual/instructions and ends up operating a car wrongly, it is possible that the manual/instruction had given wrong information. If the manual/instruction has been checked out and contain no *****/disagreeable information, then it’s the man’s own fault.

    THe Quran has been checked out… and it has ‘*****/disagreeable information’ that teaches people to ‘operate in a bad manner’. (Sura 9:29)

  61. Zack T Says:

    Kaleen,

    I have a few questions for you to consider, when it comes to forgiveness.

    1 – What is the condition of God’s forgiveness of our sins? Is it not repenting of what we’ve done wrong?

    If one does not repent of his/her sin, will God forgive their sins?

    If you want to talk about forgiving someone 70×7 times… read this and tell me what needs to happen before you do forgive someone…
    Luke 17:3-4 – “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

    2 – Did those supporters of the Ground Zero Mosque apologize (let alone repented??) for the Islamic terrorists that did what they did due to what they believe the Quran taught? Did they condemn their actions as un’Quran’ical?

    My answer to this is ‘NO’.

    3 – How is a ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ suppose to bring a message of tolerance and peace and understanding (according to the imam proposing this)… when (1) it was Muslim terrorists who did the act in the name of Islam, (2) 9-11 victims/families are still hurt from their lost?

    If it does, then Japan should be building some sort of Japanese memorial at Pearl Harbor too…
    and maybe America should build some American building at the two locations in Japan where they dropped a couple of atom bombs.
    How’s that for tolerance and understanding?

    Why disregard the hurting 9-11 families to ‘appease’ the Muslim’s desire??

    4 – Did you not know that building a mosque at the location of where a Muslim act of ‘conquest’ is actually some sort of symbol/sign of victory for Muslim, according to their traditions?
    The time when Muslims conquered Cordoba in Spain (which happens to be the name of the GZ Mosque, ironically), the first thing they built was a mosque… Same thing happened with Jerusalem and the Dome of the Rock.

  62. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    “”…4 – Did you not know that building a mosque at the location of where a Muslim act of ‘conquest’ is actually some sort of symbol/sign of victory for Muslim, according to their traditions?..”

    Who says this? Who’s PERCEPTION ?

    Zack T. It belongs to my friend.. Zack T. Absolutely his. His view.

  63. Scott Thong Says:

    University of Washington Senior Malik Bawwab: “We Will Build Our Victory Mosque – On Top Of Your Grave”

    Kaaba, Dome of the Rock, Umayyad Mosque, Hagia Sophia, Great Mosque of Cordoba

  64. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Who is Malik Bawwab ?

    When he says something..then his views represent the voice of Muslims?

    Better if anyone quote ALSO other Muslims’ views which do not agree with that. The views of Muslims who think otherwise.

    You have Malik Bawwab’s view with you (and you quickly post it here; but you don’t have (and do not quote here) other Muslim leaders’ views who disagree/oppose it… hehe..

  65. allo Says:

    It looks like he’s a Huskie.

    Malik may be passionate about his Victory Mosque at Ground Zero…
    But he’s not very smart.

    Malik also raised a little hell at a speech by a pro-Israel speaker on campus.

    If you find out any more on this radical punk please leave it in the comments or shoot me an email.
    I’ll be updating.

    UPDATE: Down with Dems added:

    Well at least we can all now agree on one thing: it IS a Victory Mosque.

    Well, all of us except Obama and Bloomberg.
    http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/09/radical-american-islamist-we-will-build-our-victory-mosque-on-top-of-your-grave/
    & Nasaei Ahmad

  66. allo Says:

    “”…4 – Did you not know that building a mosque at the location of where a Muslim act of ‘conquest’ is actually some sort of symbol/sign of victory for Muslim, according to their traditions?..”

    Who says this? Who’s PERCEPTION ? – Nasaei Ahmad

    Moslums & their history
    http://harryjbyrne.blogspot.com/2010/08/mosques-as-symbols-of-muslim-victory.html

  67. stileto Says:

    History is filled with victory mosques erected by Islamists in their ongoing conquest to conquer the world. The point of a victory mosque is to memorialize the geographical area that the Islamists consider to have conquered. It symbolizes that they have taken control of that territory.

    The sites were not chosen randomly. Many of them were formerly Christian or Jewish or Hindu temples, or in close proximity to such. The sacred locations were chosen to symbolize that control was transferred from the other states or religions to the state of Islam.

    The mosque planned at 9/11 Ground Zero is the latest in this process that has been going on for centuries. What is interesting about this one, is that it seems premature, considering they have not conquered New York or Manhattan. Or have they?

    That depends. If the mosque is allowed to be erected on Park Place in Manhattan, then victory is theirs. It would be the crowning achievement to the 9/11 Islamic terrorist attacks, and it would indicate that they have indeed conquered Manhattan and NYC for that matter.

    If it is disallowed as it should be, then there is no victory mosque, and no victory. 9/11 will remain a single battle that Islamofascists have won in an ongoing war that they have been waging against the rest of the world for over a millennium.

  68. allo Says:

    Jihad Denial Syndrome

    See no jihad. Hear no jihad. Speak no jihad.

    This sums up the Obama administration’s national security assessment regarding our ongoing conflict with global Islamic jihad. Unfortunately for us, it seems they have come down with a severe case of Jihad Denial Syndrome (JDS).

    Americans were tipped off to this when the Pentagon released its report on the Fort Hood jihadist attack. The mountains of evidence, including Nidal Hasan screaming “Allahu Akbar” as he fired away, indisputably revealed that Hasan was motivated by the ideology of jihad.

    Yet the body of the Pentagon report achieves the remarkable feat of avoiding a single mention of “radical Islam,” “jihad” or any similar reference.

    The recent National Security Strategy document affirmed that what happened in the Ft. Hood report was no accident or oversight. Stripped from the document were all references to radical Islam as a factor in the increasing number of terrorist attacks attempted against the United States.
    http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/homeland-security/105243-jihad-denial-syndrome

  69. Scott Thong Says:

    The problem is if ANY Muslim group views it as a ‘conquest’ – such as Al Qaeda – as it will boost their morale and spur them to collect more funding, recruit more people and carry out more attacks.

    Hamas: Muslims HAVE to build mosque at Ground Zero

  70. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Agree. People tend to garner supports for their “struggle”. And gain it sometimes. The danger is that..some people may sympathize with them..agree with them.

  71. p*ssfoundation Says:

    Donations to Cordoba initiative for Ground Zero can be made through Mahathir`s Foundation.
    Rock throwers can join Ahmadinejad on October 13.
    http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/News/Article.aspx?ID=189508&R=R1&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    Perkasa in Malaysia is recruiting awaiting moslum members in thousands.

  72. zerohero Says:

    Islamophobic misunderstanders of islam

    The captured German reportedly said several teams of attackers, all with European passports, had been trained and dispatched from training camps in Waziristan and Pakistan.
    http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Multi-Attack-Terror-Plot-On-London-And-Other-UK-Cities-Paris-And-Germany/Article/201009415747154?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15747154_Multi-Attack_Terror_Plot_On_London_And_Other_UK_Cities%2C_Paris_And_Germany

  73. zerohero Says:

    Moses a prophet for them?
    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message240261/pg1

  74. eek&meek Says:

    Ground Zero church will not be rebuilt, church officials shocked

    Mosque yes, church no, say New York officials. “Decision Not to Rebuild Church Destroyed on 9/11 Surprises Greek Orthodox Leaders,”
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/18/leaders-disappointed-government-declares-deal-rebuild-ground-zero-church-dead/

  75. Zack T Says:

    it’s hilariously annoying for me that anytime someone speaks against Islam or Muslims… he/she is labelled as ‘Islamophobic’… (and even accused of being racist… when in fact Islam is or Muslims are not a race.)

    So when those Muslims are protesting against the US military going into Iraq or wherever, then they should be equally labeled US-ophobic…
    Or when Muslims protest against what Jewish related matter… they should be labeled Judaophobic.
    Or when Muslims protested against the drawing of Muhammad cartoons.. they should be labeled Muhammad-toonophobic or ‘SouthParkophobic’.

    Obviously, labeling people as such doesn’t resolve anything….. so does the solution to just kill everyone who did the deed.

  76. eek&meek Says:

    Moscow: Thousands protest against plan to build mosque

    A leading Moscow imam, Ildar Ayautdinov, has threatened to have Muslims conduct prayers in Orthodox churches if they don’t get more mosques in Moscow, and added: “There is a need to construct mosques, otherwise something bad will supersede spiritual development.” Something bad, eh? I can’t imagine what!

    Meanwhile, will Moscow authorities allow a mosque to be built where a church was disallowed?

    “Butrimov said residents asked local authorities several years ago to build a Russian Orthodox chapel or create a park on the unused lot. But authorities banned construction on the plot, saying utilities ran underneath it, he said….”
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/proposed-moscow-mosque-stirs-protests/417034.html

  77. eek&meek Says:

    We are currently witnessing the greatest revival of global anti-Semitism since the Middle Ages.
    It encompasses the entire political spectrum, but is spearheaded by liberals and Muslims.
    It is macabre to observe the alliance between liberals and jihadists who represent the antithesis of everything the Left purports to represent. More than 50 Muslim countries deny Judaism or Christianity equal standing with Islam.

    WHAT MAKES this situation even more bizarre is that over the past months, there has been a concerted campaign claiming that Islamophobia represents the greatest threat to human rights in the world!

    This is taking place at a time when the Muslims have the audacity to promote legislation at the UN and elsewhere which would make any criticism of Islam a criminal offense.

    Jews who exaggerate the presence of Islamophobia become leading proponents of the campaign to sanitize and understate Islamic extremism.

    http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=189444

  78. pinky&brain Says:

    Messiah Obama Explains Why He’s A ‘Christian’…
    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/obama-talks-about-his-faith-2/

    ..stop criticizing the President and saying he’s Muslim when you’re clueless about your own belief system! Don’t you know he’s mongrel-y Catholic?

  79. loop Says:

    Zack T, I agree some of your point of view but not agree some too like below:

    ‘You would have a case….. if the New Testament taught Christians or Jews to kill anyone who rejects or goes against Christianity or God or the bible.’
    Many cases, and the most ..In the realm of the Spirit no nation was as favoured as the Jews and yet Moses (pbuh) is made to bewail against his own people —Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day I knew you.
    (HOLY BIBLE) Deutronomy 9: 24

    They killed Jesus too remember?!

    ‘You don’t have a case for Islam, because Muhammad does teach to kill everyone’
    Muhammad pbuh is a messenger of Allah; By bringing the Guidance of God to perfection ‘ “For he will Guide you into all Truth.” said Jesus Christ

    ‘A nun does so because they believe GOd told them to do so to honor Him…’
    Tell me that you never see Muslimah is wearing when they do the solah… and of course they avoid causing men to sin too.

    ‘THe Quran has been checked out… and it has ‘*****/disagreeable information’ that teaches people to ‘operate in a bad manner’. (Sura 9:29)’
    This is the ‘History that they don’t teach you in school .‘ They will never ever learn to operate their bad manner . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjJYj0PI2LQ
    So 9:29 is still agreeable ..You can checked out at any time you like but you can never leave .

  80. Simon Thong Says:

    Loop: Muhammad pbuh is a messenger of Allah; By bringing the Guidance of God to perfection ‘ “For he will Guide you into all Truth.” said Jesus Christ

    How to tell you without hurting your feelings? Jesus Christ referred to the Holy Spirit.
    Read it yourself in John 14:25-27 (New International Version)
    25″All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

    Please don’t mislead yourself.

  81. Zack T Says:

    Loop,

    Interesting response for the first part of your comment..
    First of all, I don’t see how that verse (Deut 9:24) is counter to my statement because…

    1 – I asked for New Testament, Deuteronomy is in the Old Testament
    2 – How about you read the following few verses, hm?

    Deuteuronomy 9:25-26
    [Moses continues,] “So I lay prostrate before the LORD for these forty days and forty nights, because the LORD had said He would destroy you. And I prayed to the LORD, ‘O Lord GOD, do not destroy Your people and Your heritage, whom You have redeemed through Your greatness, whom You have brought out of Egypt with a mighty hand….”

    loop “They killed Jesus too remember?!”

    Now this is a very interesting statement by you. Let me review my statement that is being countered by you at the moment.

    You would have a case….. if the New Testament taught Christians or Jews to kill anyone who rejects or goes against Christianity or God or the bible.

    Now… does the New Testament TEACH that we as Christians are supposed to kill our Messiah, the Son of God, the Son of Man, just as the Jews did before?
    OR does it RECORD that the Jews killed Jesus?

    How about you answer me that question, loop?

  82. Zack T Says:

    loop, “Muhammad pbuh is a messenger of Allah; By bringing the Guidance of God to perfection ‘ “For he will Guide you into all Truth.” said Jesus Christ”

    Incredible quote from Jesus, loop. How about you quote us from where you got us that quote from?

    I am aware of this verse of Jesus saying that exact statement; John 16:13.
    Now let’s read it in context, shall we?

    John 16:7-9
    [Jesus says,] “I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper [Muhd?] will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him [Jesus sends Muhd??] to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin because they do not believe in me [for not believing in Jesus]…

    John 16:13-15
    When the Spirit of truth [Muhd, a spirit??] comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me [Oh no.. I don’t recall Muhd glorifying Jesus, I know he glorified God *gasp!*], for he will take what is mine [Muhd will take what’s Jesus’s?? not Allah’s???] and declare it to you [Muhd only declared Allah’s words, didn’t he??]. All that the Father has is mine [All that was God’s is Jesus’s too. That ain’t Islam!]; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

    Now, I am not saying Allah of the Quran is Jesus, nor am I saying Allah is the same God as told in the bible.
    But if loop is appealing to this verse to prove Muhd’s ‘Allah-sent’ prophethood.. then loop has to agree with the statement Jesus made… That God IS the Father, making Jesus His Son, and that Jesus sent Muhammad, making Him equal with God because no mere man sends prophets.. and Muhd is supposed to declare what is Jesus’s to the people, lead them to the truth concerning sin for not believing Jesus, and also glorify Jesus!

    Muhammad did none of those and therefore is not who Jesus was talking about. ANd just as Simon pointed out, Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit.

  83. Zack T Says:

    Nun vs Muslimah:
    As I said, the main reason Muhd taught that was because to prevent men from sinning.. not to honor Allah. If I’m wrong, do quote me a verse where Muhammad taught women to dress so to honor Allah. I’m willing to be corrected.

    Sura 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah…nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”

    loop believes this verse is still agreeable. And says that you can check out, but not leave.
    Meaning, probably, you can say you don’t follow Islam anymore, but you cannot leave Islam.
    What happens if you try to leave?

  84. Scott Thong Says:

    But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. – John 16:13

    And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. – John 14:16-17

    If loop is right, then Mohammad is the Spirit of Truth, then I have Mohammad INSIDE MY BODY FOREVER!!!!

    (Doesn’t that hurt?)

  85. Jamie Says:

    It’s entirely possible that the organizers and the proponents of building the victory mosque do not view it as an extension of Islam, but really do believe what they are doing is a symbol of tolerance.

    What’s working within them however is the spirit behind all of Islam that desires to enslave and subjugate. It could be an unconscious influence being exerted on them in the realm of the spiritual. Which is why they simply can’t understand how people can be offended about the location of the mosque for any reason other than intolerance.

    Spiritual blinding; their eyes are hooded.

  86. Scott Thong Says:

    Or to be completely secular about it – they’re just plain arrogant, self-centred, unempathic, elitist, condescending, undiplomatic, insensitive, self-deluded…

    Feel free to add on.

  87. loop Says:

    Zack T,did you mean: Deuteronomy 9:25-26 . Feel odd you made the error.

    Your ‘Deuteuronomy’ 9:25-26-I think we should start it from Deutronomy 9:24 didn’t you. Duet 9:24 is where the problem started till Duet 25-26,Moses had to lay prostrated for 40 days and nights bewail against his evil manner of his own people.
    Please correct me if I’m wrong.

    ‘Incredible quote from Jesus, loop. How about you quote us from where you got us that quote from?’
    You quote and Jesus cleared that – John 16:7-9 and John 16:13-15.

    ‘..then loop has to agree with the statement Jesus made….’
    Nope, I follow The Qur’an claims he was just another prophet:
    [4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
    [3.59]”The similitude of Isa before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust.”

    Nun vs Muslimah:
    “A nun does so because they believe God(Jesus?) told them to do so to honor Him…”. If your God is Jesus meaning it’s just only a word of prophet in Islam. And if it is about honor God why only to nun not to others christian women or they too just go against God?
    Muslim followed the syariat not only Quran but sunnah, ijma’ and ‘qias too, something that you have to understand before made a claims.

    Some false claims can be dealt with in the light of the Quran.

  88. loop Says:

    ‘..then I have Mohammad INSIDE MY BODY FOREVER!!!!’

    Really? but I only see your anti-Islam fanatic in you!!

  89. loop Says:

    I only see your anti-Islam fanatic in your body and soul since my first visited to your blog until now compared to reverend R.Maxwell King

    “I have read in Moslem writings such deep and tender expressions of respect and reverence for Jesus that for the time I almost forgot, I was not reading the words of a Christian writer. How different, it is sad to say, has been the way in which Christians have spoken and written of Muhammad. Let us put it down to it’s true cause, ignorance”
    Reverend R. Maxwell King

  90. loop Says:

    ‘How to tell you without hurting your feelings?’

    Its okey.. I’m sorry too because hurting your feeling Mr Simon Thong.

  91. Scott Thong Says:

    I only see your anti-Islam fanatic in your body and soul since my first visited to your blog until now compared to reverend R.Maxwell King – loop

    You must give me citations… Becos according to other commentors, my blog is much more anti-atheist, anti-liberals, anti-Obama, anti-UMNO…

    Maybe you just feel that way because the only posts you care about are those mentioning Islam.

  92. Zack T Says:

    loop,

    I don’t understand what’s the problem about the bible telling us that the Jews rebelled against God (I’m sure plenty of Muslims disobeyed or rebelled against Allah… so?).
    My statement/question was not asking for evidence of Jews rebelling against God.. but for evidence that the New Testament taught us as followers of God to kill others who aren’t (in contrast to Muhammad teaching Muslims to kill and fight non-believers in the cause of Allah to either convert them or subjugate them)

    I don’t really get what you’re trying to point at here by pointing us to some rebellious Jews.
    So until you actually answer my statement… you’ve only proven that my statement is true.. whereas you can’t counter my statement that Muhammad taught followers of Islam to kill and fight unbelievers for Allah in the Quran AND the hadiths.

    loop “You quote and Jesus cleared that – John 16:7-9 and John 16:13-15.”

    Huh? Jesus cleared what? AGain, don’t know what you’re getting at here.
    I know I answered my question for you, but what you trying to say here? Awkward~~~

  93. Zack T Says:

    “Nope, I follow The Qur’an claims he was just another prophet”

    Problem is… you’re not following what the Quran says about the bible then…

    1/ The Qur’an teaches that all scripture should be respected in the same way:

    (4:136 AYA) O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those BEFORE (him). Any who denieth Allah, His Angels, His Books [plural], His Apostles [plural], and the Day of Judgement, hath gone far, far astray.

    (3:84 AYA) We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make NO DISTINCTION between one and another among them.

    2/ The Torah that was given to Moses, and the Gospel that was given to Jesus, are the scriptures that the Jews and Christians now possess:

    (7:157 MP) Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which ARE) WITH them.

    (2:89 MP) And when there cometh unto them (Jews) a Scripture (the Qur’an) from Allah, confirming that IN THEIR POSSESSION.

    Thus, the Qur’an is not referring to scripture that Jews and Christians use to possess in the past, but now are lost. Rather, the Torah given to Moses, and the Gospel given to Jesus, is the scripture that is with them (the Christians and Jews) and in their possession at the time of Muhammad.

    3/ The Qur’an teaches that it confirms and explains more fully the previous scripture:

    (10:37 AYA/38 MP) This Koran is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went BEFORE [the Koran], and a fuller explanation of the Book.

    Thus, the Qur’an sees itself as the guardian of the message of all scripture: To thee We sent the scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety (5:48 MP/51 AYA).

    Quoted and more available from www answering-islam.org/Green/onbible.htm

    Your Quran teaches that the bible is true and reliable and you are not to make a distinction between the bible and the Quran. So you’re not obeying your Quran.
    If you are to obey it, then you have to reject it because the bible’s messsage is completely opposite the Quran’s…
    and if you are to claim the bible is corrupted, then the Quran is wrong to say that it confirms the bible that was revealed before Muhammad.
    Make your choice, loop.

  94. Zack T Says:

    Nun vs Muslimah
    It matters not to me what the Quran says about Jesus, because the bible doesn’t tell us to rely on a book that was to come about 600 years later through someone several hundred miles away, who has never seen Jerusalem or Israel, let alone been there.

    And like I said, the nuns believe (in their own understanding of the bible) they need to dress so to honor God. The bible does not regulate or make it a rule/law for women to dress in such a way. If you want to challenge me on that, you can try quote me something from the New Testament. Good luck.

    “Muslim followed the syariat not only Quran but sunnah, ijma’ and ‘qias too, something that you have to understand before made a claims.

    Some false claims can be dealt with in the light of the Quran.”

    Very interesting statement, loop.
    Muslims follow not only the Quran, but some other books… but false claims can be dealt with in the light of the Quran…
    One moment you say Quran is not enough, the next you say it is enough.

    “‘..then I have Mohammad INSIDE MY BODY FOREVER!!!!’

    Really? but I only see your anti-Islam fanatic in you!!”

    Loop, you’re a funny fellow. You completely missed the point of Scott’s sarcasm… Talk about being ignorant….

    DO you believe Jesus was talking about Muhammad when He was describing to us the ‘Spirit of Truth’, from which you used His quote in support of Muhammad’s prophethood?

  95. Zack T Says:

    I also noticed you didn’t challenge any of the statements I’ve made, but instead just went on some other points that were not related or doesn’t answer me in any way.

    1 – “If I’m wrong, do quote me a verse where Muhammad taught women to dress so to honor Allah. I’m willing to be corrected.”

    2 – “Sura 9:29, loop said, ‘You can say you don’t follow Islam anymore, but you cannot leave Islam.’ What happens if you try to leave?”

    3 – “Now… does the New Testament TEACH that we as Christians are supposed to kill our Messiah, the Son of God, the Son of Man, just as the Jews did before? OR does it RECORD that the Jews killed Jesus?
    How about you answer me that question, loop?”

    4 – “But if loop is appealing to this verse to prove Muhd’s ‘Allah-sent’ prophethood.. then loop has to agree with the statement Jesus made… That God IS the Father, making Jesus His Son, and that Jesus sent Muhammad, making Him equal with God because no mere man sends prophets.. and Muhd is supposed to declare what is Jesus’s to the people, lead them to the truth concerning sin for not believing Jesus, and also glorify Jesus!
    Muhammad did none of those and therefore is not who Jesus was talking about”
    This last one also proves that Muhd is a ***** prophet and not sent by the same God that Jesus serves.

  96. Simon Thong Says:

    I look at the OldTfrom the eyes of the New testament because I am a christian and not a Jew. I am a christian and not a muslim, so I begin with the Bible. If you, Loop, or any other, quotes the bible, they should make sure they do not twist its contents. It is also imperative to interpret passages correctly. Thus, when Jesus said that he meant that the Holy Spirit will teach us all the truth, it is obviously wrong to say that he means someone else like the Prophet.

  97. Simon Thong Says:

    By the way, Zack, Hanlon’s Razor says, “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.” According to Joseph Bigler, the quotation first came from Robert J. Hanlon of Scranton, Pennsylvania as a submission for a book compilation of various jokes related to Murphy’s law published in 1980 entitled Murphy’s Law Book Two, More Reasons Why Things Go Wrong.[1] The name was inspired by Occam’s razor (“the simplest explanation is usually the correct one” and the simplest means the fewest new assumptions).

  98. baraka Says:

    They killed Jesus too remember?! – loop

    Is it? Dont wori so much. To make you happy he is going to come back and kill them

    “Hadhrat Isa’s (A.S.) Descension The Physical Features of Hadhrat Isa (A.S.)

    He will resemble the famous Sahabi (A.S.) Hadhrat Urwa bin Masoodi (R.A.). He will be of average height and red and white in colour. His hair spread to the shoulders, straight, neat and shining as after a bath. On bending his head, it will seem as if pearls are falling. He will have an armour on his body. He will be wearing two pieces of cloth light yellow in color.”
    http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/jesus.html

  99. baraka Says:

    “He will be of average height and red and white in colour.”

    Arab “Black & White Minstrel Show”

  100. Simon Thong Says:

    That’s old…but good. Why did they disband the group, or shelf the show? Racist connotations? Or the incongruity of white men painted black?

  101. loop Says:

    “I also noticed you didn’t challenge …”

    Zack T, you sound just like Scott to me now .Anyway I take the time to give you a real insight for the cases but due to time constrain I counter some, the others some other time if you still insist.

    1 – “If I’m wrong, do quote me a verse where Muhammad taught women to dress so to honor Allah. I’m willing to be corrected.”

    Verses where Muhammad have to taught women to wear dress to honor Allah.

    Just for your sastifaction

    [24:60] And (as for) women advanced in years who do not hope for a marriage, it is no sin for them if they put off their clothes without displaying their ornaments; and if they restrain themselves it is better for them; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

    [33:59] O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    [7:26] O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful.

    [24:31] And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

    I doubt you enjoy reading it

  102. loop Says:

    “What happens if you try to leave Islam ?”
    Zack T,they are please to go..

    [4:137] Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.

    They can go ahead Zack T, leave and enjoy while you still alive. Allah don’t miss a thing..

    [5:54] O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah’s way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah’s Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

    Just turn your back and respite

    [47:25] Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.

    Zack T , can you please tell me what happen if you leave christian according to Bible 13:8-9?

  103. loop Says:

    “Now… does the New Testament TEACH that we as Christians are supposed to kill our Messiah,..”

    You know that better but this is what my Quran told about the unbelievers who try to kill Messiah .

    Qur’an, 8:30-When those who did not believe were plotting against you, to imprison you or to kill you or to expel you: they were planning and God was planning, but God is the Best of Planners.

    God foiled their plot in a completely unexpected manner: They were shown, and killed, a double in his stead. Our Lord protected His chosen servant from the unbelievers:
    (Qur’an, 4:157-58)-And [on account of] their saying: “We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, messenger of God.” They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. God raised him [Jesus] up to Himself. God is Almighty, All-Wise.
    So for the unbelievers, God will not give the unbelievers any way against the believers” (Qur’an, 4:141). God revealed that He would not allow the unbelievers to kill Jesus (pbuh).
    And that is my believe too since Quran teaches me so.

  104. loop Says:

    “Problem is… you’re not following what the Quran says about the bible then…”

    I follow what the quran says about the bible then..with the exception on those fabricated by mankind after the departure of Jesus..

  105. tangerang Says:

    Over 3000 Islamic People from Jakarta, Indonesia Attend Falun Gong Introduction Convention and Learn Falun Gong Exercises (Photos)
    http://www.clearharmony.net/articles/200205/4671.html

  106. tangerang Says:

    loop Says:
    October 3, 10 at 12:07 am

    “What happens if you try to leave Islam ?”
    Zack T,they are please to go..blah blah blah blah baaaa
    *************************

    Advocate Muhammad Ismail Qureshi – who had got Ahmadis declared non-Muslims by the Supreme Court, some unknown persons had been wiring him frequent letters carrying blasphemous remarks against the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and other prophets.

    In the FIR he alleged that although the letters did not contain names of the senders, he was sure that Wajihul Hassan was behind these letters. He alleged that Wajihul Hassan was a Muslim but later converted to Christianity and was using derogatory remarks against the Holy Prophet (pbuh). The complainant could not produce any of these letters before the police and mentioned in the FIR that he had burnt all the six letters.
    http://tribune.com.pk/story/56578/lhc-upholds-death-for-blasphemy-accused/

  107. Sher Khan Says:

    In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan

    Pakistan: Muslims murder entire Christian family, including five children

    The kuffar stepped out of line. Their crime? Standing up to a Muslim who was charging Christians exorbitant interest.
    http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/26168/

  108. Sher Khan Says:

    From Islamic Republic of Pakistan

    Pakistan: Muslims murder entire Christian family, including five children

    The kuffar stepped out of line. Their crime? Standing up to a Muslim who was charging Christians exorbitant interest.
    http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/26168/

  109. Simon Thong Says:

    loop Says:
    October 3, 10 at 12:07 am

    “What happens if you try to leave Islam ?”
    Zack T,they are please to go..blah blah blah blah baaaa
    *************************

    No, they’re not free to go in countries ruled by muslims; or even in malaysia which is less harsh but then, they are free to go to…Singapore, the UK, the USA, NZ, Australia, and other countries that legally allow their right to practise the religion of their choice.

    There is a difference between between being blind to reality, loop, and opening your eyes to reality. Today, if I so choose, I could leave Christianity and tell my pastor to bungoff, and he had better not bother me if I tell him not to.

  110. Ramesh Says:

    loop Says:
    October 3, 10 at 12:07 am

    “What happens if you try to leave Islam ?”
    Zack T,they are please to go..blah blah blah blah baaaa
    *************************

    “On August 4, 2010 Judicial Commissioner Yaakob Sam pronounced that 28 year-old Banggarma, a Hindu mother, was is officially a “Muslim” despite her plea that she is a Hindu. According to the judge, the document that she was converted to Islam, at the age of eight, and while in an orphanage is enough to prove that she is a Muslim! How could Banggarma, as an abandoned eight-year old in an orphanage, be considered competent to have made such a decision voluntarily?”
    http://www.humanrightspartymalaysia.com/2010/08/27/washington-post-article-on-hindraf-and-malaysian-hindus-persecuted/

  111. loop Says:

    ‘There is a difference between between being blind to reality..’

    Reality??Remember when someone fr the Azhar mansor site said 1/2 a million of muslim malaysian convert to Christians.. are they all sentence to death???or being killed . Like dog or pig??? You manipulate all things concerning the Muslim.Pathetic.

  112. Ramesh Says:

    “Remember when someone fr the Azhar mansor site said 1/2 a million of muslim malaysian convert to Christians.. are they all sentence to death???”

    That means it is true? Why are they not being killed like dog or pig. Because it is lies by muslim fanaticks like loop.

  113. Ramesh Says:

    Malaysia ‘convert’ claims cruelty
    By Jonathan Kent
    BBC News, Kuala Lumpur

    A Malaysian woman held for months in an Islamic rehabilitation centre says she was subjected to mental torture for insisting her religion is Hinduism.

    Revathi Massosai, the name by which she wants to be known, says she was forced to eat beef despite being a Hindu.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6278568.stm

  114. Ramesh Says:

  115. loop Says:

    ‘That God IS the Father, making Jesus His Son, and that Jesus sent Muhammad, making Him equal with God because no mere man sends prophets.. and Muhd is supposed to declare what is Jesus’s to the people, lead them to the truth concerning sin for not believing Jesus, and also glorify Jesus!’

    Muhammad did none of those because there were none of the above!!

    The Quran (Surat an-Nisa’: 171-72)said:
    People of the Book. Do not go to excess in your religion. Say nothing but the truth about Allah. The Messiah, Jesus son of Maryam, was only the Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He cast into Maryam, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers. Do not say: “Three.” It is better that you stop. Allah is only One God. He is too glorious to have a son! Everything in the heavens and in Earth belongs to Him. Allah suffices as a Guardian. The Messiah would never disdain to be a servant to Allah, nor would the angels near to Him. If any disdain to worship Him and grow arrogant, He will, in any case, gather them all to Him.

  116. Ramesh Says:

    Malaysia = Religion discrimination!

  117. Ramesh Says:

    An idiot things 7th century laws relevant in the 21st century

  118. Ramesh Says:

    Extending jurisdiction on “close proximity”: “It is an implied way of imposing Sharia law on the non-Muslim communities in Malaysia”….the proposal is tantamount to imposing Islamic law on non-Muslims.
    http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/4/4/nation/20843977&sec=nation

  119. Ramesh Says:

    Everywoman looks at the crime of apostasy; how a baby can be torn from its parents because a Muslim woman dared to marry a non-Muslim.

  120. Ramesh Says:

    “If any disdain to worship Him and grow arrogant, He will, in any case, gather them all to Him.” …..loop

    He try that with me & i`ll kick him between his legs, smash his b***s & feed to the dogs & pigs

  121. Ramesh Says:

  122. Ramesh Says:

    Abrogation in the Quran. How a considerable number of verses in the Quran has been removed, changed, reversed, or replaced…

  123. loop Says:

    ‘Muhammad did none of those..’

    “I have studied him – the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.” George Bernard Shaw, THE GENUINE ISLAM, Vol. 1, No. 81936.

  124. loop Says:

    ‘Muhammad did none of those..’

    Alphonse De La Martine, a historian, wrote in his book, History of the Turks, “If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria for judging a human genius, who dare to compare any man in modern history with Muhammad?” (Be peace and blessings upon him)

  125. Zack T Says:

    loop,
    Thank you for responding to some of my points. Have been away from the internet for a while, but now am back and am happy to continue with you. =D

    loop, “I doubt you enjoy reading it”

    No, you’re dead wrong on that one.. Rather enjoyed it, really. Let me show you why..

    Muslimah’s Dressing
    [24:60] – it is no sin for them to dress so… Does not equal it is honorable or pleasing to God. Just like how eating Maggi Mee every day for the rest of your life is no sin… yet you neither do or mandate that, nor does it please or anger God.

    [33:59] – Dress so because it is more proper (sounds to me, it implies any lesser and it’s still proper enough), so that they may be known (by who? and for what? Reputation/Recognition?) and also they will not be given TROUBLE. Oh my.. sounds like a threat…

    [24:31] – Very long verse.. but oddly, what I got is this… “and not display their ornaments EXCEPT to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women;”
    Sounds to me that’s a lot of people for the women to display their ‘ornaments’ to…. rather than not display.

    [7:26] – Now this is an interesting verse… “O children of Adam! [Only female? No, both male AND female] We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame,”
    If this verse was meant for women only, that means every part of a woman (except maybe her face or for the extreme, around her eyes) is her shame. How sexist you are, loop… or actually… Muhammad and his Quran.

    As one of our favorite commentors of this blog once said… “I doubt you enjoy reading it”

  126. Zack T Says:

    loop,
    ” ‘What happens if you try to leave Islam ?’
    Zack T,they are please to go..”

    Other commentors seem more than happy to respond to you on this, so I’ll leave you to them.

    loop, “Zack T , can you please tell me what happen if you leave christian according to Bible 13:8-9?”

    Wow….. “Bible 13:8-9”?? Talk about not knowing or ever reading the bible AT ALL. Come back to me again with quoting the Bible when you’ve actually READ it.
    My goodness, that was such an embarrassing error to make for loop. I felt embarrassed reading that.

    loop, “Muhammad did none of those because there were none of the above!!”

    Now… let’s see what’s the implication of that statement.

    Since you disagree with the verses surrounding John 16:13, that means you also disagree with the statement that Jesus made that “he will lead you in all truth”… otherwise you’ll be committing the fallacy of picking and choosing what you believe is true.

    So that means Muhammad will not lead us in ALL truth, but maybe some.
    SO that means his Quran is insufficient to guide us to all truth.
    And therefore, you’re in the wrong religion, loop.

  127. Zack T Says:

    loop, “I follow what the quran says about the bible then..with the exception on those fabricated by mankind after the departure of Jesus..”

    I LOVE YOUR STATEMENT!! 😄

    Now let’s see. Let’s get a reality check on the timeline of history here.

    Birth of Jesus Christ – 0-1 A.D. (Some historians believe as early as 3 B.C. even)
    Death of Jesus Christ – 33 A.D. (General agreement of Jesus/1st Century historians)
    Thus it is safe to say the ‘Departure of Jesus’ was also within the year 33 A.D.

    Now… Birth of Muhammad – 570 A.D.
    First meeting with ‘Angel Gabriel’ – age 40, approx. 610 A.D. (“According to Islamic beliefs”, Wikipedia)

    Now… let us examine the implications of your statement, loop.

    “I follow what the quran says about the bible then..with the exception on those fabricated by mankind after the departure of Jesus..”

    According to the quotes I gave, the quran says the bible (IN their possession) is true and reliable and should not be made any distinction amongst any of the other ‘God-revealed’ scriptures.
    But now you say that the bible was corrupted and manipulated after Jesus ‘departed’. So we have almost 600 years before Muhammad came into the scene. So….. here’s the problem.
    Muhammad said, in more than one occasion, the bible (in their possession) was true and reliable. Not partly reliable or partly true.

    That means the bible that the Jews/Christians had during Muhammad’s time was trusted and approved by Muhammad himself. But you say it was corrupted after Jesus ‘departed’. You don’t have only a problem with the bible, loop… you have a problem with your Quran and Muhammad too.

    And to add more to your trouble.. we have the Dead Sea Scrolls (among other manuscripts) that date earlier than 600 A.D. (even up to B.C.) and have proven that the current bible is still accurately preserved throughout these millenniums.

  128. Zack T Says:

    loop, ” ‘Now… does the New Testament TEACH that we as Christians are supposed to kill our Messiah,..’
    You know that better… ”

    So that means you have admitted that my statement is true, that the bible does NOT teach its believers to kill non-believers. Thank you.

    loop, “…but this is what my Quran told about the unbelievers who try to kill Messiah .”

    Now, I want to end my response to you with this thought for you, loop.

    Allow me to put those verses you quoted into perspective here.
    Quran 8:30 – God is the best of planners, according to Yusuf Ali’s translation.
    The more accurate translation would’ve been “the best of cheaters/deceivers” (or a slightly less accurate one, ‘schemer’)

    The different translations of the verse – www answering-islam.org/Quran/Versions/003.054.html
    Allah the Greatest Deceiver of them All – www answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_best_deceiver.htm

    loop, “God foiled their plot in a completely unexpected manner: They were shown, and killed, a double in his stead. Our Lord protected His chosen servant from the unbelievers:”

    Putting aside the verses in the Quran to make no distinction between the prophets (Quran 2:285, 2:136, 4:152, 3:84; http: muttaqun.com/mawlid.html)… which means that for Allah to particularly save Jesus is to make a distinction between Jesus and the other prophets.. when even Muhammad was not saved from being killed with poison by an enemy (Ibn Sa’d pages 251, 252; Tabari Vol 8, pg 123, 124)

    Let’s take for a moment that this claim, Quran 4:157-158 is true… Who were the ones tricked by this ‘illusion’ from Allah?
    a) Jews who were against Jesus and really wanted to kill Him?
    b) Jews who believed Jesus and were even His disciples?

    The correct answer is (c) All of the above (including non-Jews of that time)

    Allah tricked everyone with Jesus’s death and both Allah and Jesus did not bother to correct the illusion that Jesus’ disciples suffered and they went out and preached Jesus’s death and resurrection for centuries since then.
    You can check any competent 1st Century historians and you will get the general consensus that early Christians believed Jesus actually died and then ascended to Heaven.

    SO here’s an issue… Allah is the biggest reason why Christianity was created…. not only that, it is the biggest ‘cult’ that caused millions of people throughout the centuries to commit the worst offense to Allah; ‘shirk’ – to equal someone else to that of Allah..
    Only almost 600 years of souls lost later did Allah decide to send someone to ‘set the record straight’, and even so, the guy came hundreds of miles away from Jerusalem/Israel…

    You are correct, loop, to quote [8:30], because Allah is indeed the best of Schemers and it is my belief that the teachings that come from Muhammad’s Allah is actually from ‘*******’.

    Allah saves whom he pleases and he deceives/rejects whom he pleases. [Quran 29:21] Allah does whatever he pleases to the point that you as a Muslim can never say “I AM going to heaven”, but must say “I should be going to heaven, but as Allah pleases.”
    You have no assurance of salvation, loop.

    On the other hand, Jesus Christ gives us an assurance of salvation. He says “I AM the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME.” [John 14:6]

    This is the good news for you, loop!

    John 3:16-18
    “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him [not might or maybe, but] SHALL NOT perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world THROUGH HIM. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he HAS NOT believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

  129. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    “..The more accurate translation would’ve been “the best of cheaters/deceivers.

    Putting aside the verses in the Quran to make no distinction between the prophets (Quran 2:285, 2:136, 4:152, 3:84; http: muttaqun.com/mawlid.html)… which means that for Allah to particularly save Jesus is to make a distinction between Jesus and the other prophets.. when even Muhammad was not saved from being killed with poison by an enemy (Ibn Sa’d pages 251, 252; Tabari Vol 8, pg 123, 124)”.
    – Zack T

    I salute non-belivers (kafirs) for their mastery in spinning and thus made the most precise translation! You all are really master of word gymnastics, word somersault – master of your very own craft..so that the translation look good to your taste..

    Sam Shamoun should learn more from Zack T to improve his knowledge – especially in translation.

  130. Zack T Says:

    Thank you for your comment, Nasaei… though you didn’t explain why you say I was ‘spinning’ and doing ‘word gymnastics’.

    Please do explain, if there’s more substance to your accusations.

  131. Riki Tiki Tavi Says:

    “I salute non-belivers (kafirs) for their mastery in spinning and thus made the most precise translation! You all are really master of word gymnastics, word somersault – master of your very own craft..so that the translation look good to your taste..”

    The commentor has to be an Islamophobe of sorts.

    “Understanding Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah”
    http://islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm

  132. Riki Tiki Tavi Says:

    “Arab world’s most prominent space scientist working in NASA believes in supernatural creatures, but admits he has no evidence to prove [it] except for his faith in the Quran.

    Dr Farouq al-Baz, who worked 43 years in NASA, told Alarabiya.net that he was sure that the ghouls, Jinns and demons live among us and said that he came to the conclusion through his scientific predisposition meshed with his complete believe in Quran verses signifying their existence.

    Quran denotes to Jinn as creatures created from fire, while humans are created from mud.”

    Even if he believes in jinn and ghouls, isn’t it the height of stupidity to say so publicly? Does he think that his Arab scientific colleagues will benefit when their co-workers read this article and start wondering about them too?

    If the “Arab world’s most prominent space scientist” wants to promote Arabs as being the equal in scientific achievement with everyone else, this is not exactly how to do it. But if he wants to paint them all as superstitious buffoons, then he’s done a great job.

  133. Riki Tiki Tavi Says:

    Famed Arab space scientist believes in ghouls
    http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/10/01/120926.html

  134. Zack T Says:

    “Quran denotes to Jinn as creatures created from fire, while humans are created from mud.”

    Talk about the Quran being consistent or accurate..

    This one quotes the Quran saying humans were made from mud… another part of the Quran said sand… another clay.. another water… and I think about from air.

  135. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah”

    “You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” (John 8:44)

    And so forth ,…(lying among the people ..of any given faith)..as it may be..

    I’m sorry friends..Zack T and Riki..

    Muslims do not say Yusuf Ali’s translation, or Pitckhall, or Jakim..or Rashad Khaliffa’s translation is “the most precise” one. Those people just made efforts to translate/ transliterate Quran in best of their ability, in good faith (I think so).

    And, translations/ interpretations can be varies according to each of translators. Allah doesn’t translate it for us. However, Quran in Arabic is the real Quran. We (muslims) do not refer to translations as “Quran”. We called it “terjemahan Quran” in Malay, literally “Quran translations”. I guess you all acknowledge this. Quran in Arabic is what we called “Quran”. It is the same text everywhere – the world over.

    planner=cheater=deceiver according to my friend Zack? Among the three available words, according to him, “cheater” is the most correct; the most precise ! I tend to disagree with you Zack on this little piece of “translation/ interpretation..

    To Riki, (since he gave us the reference about “taqiyya” above..all I can say is that, arguments won’t end by just counter cut-n-paste posting here..because there are plenty of websites here on the net to be picked (to support our claim). I just recommend (to anyone)..better not to refer to enemy of Islam’s writing, or believe in their lies (writing) if we were really to understand anything about Islam.

    As we acknowledge lying is wrong, and sinful, I wonder if non-Muslims aware that in certain conditions/circumstances, it is allowed ? Maybe in Christian also? For example, in case we came across by a killer. In case he asked us in his hunt for somebody, then we do not tell him that the person he was looking for was hiding at a certain place…then this kind of “lying” is “permissible”.

    What do you all understand about “taqiyya” ?

    Better to learn it from the Muslim scholars..(not from the anti-Islam “scholar”, or enemy of Islam’s views).

  136. Raymond Ibrahim Says:

    Origins of taqiyya

    As a doctrine, taqiyya was first codified by Shia Muslims, primarily as a result of their historical experience. Long insisting that the caliphate rightly belonged to the prophet Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law, Ali (and subsequently his descendents), the Shia were a vocal and powerful branch of Islam that emerged following Muhammad’s death. After the internal Islamic Fitna wars from the years 656 AD to 661 AD, however, the Shia became a minority branch, persecuted by mainstream Muslims or Sunnis – so-called because they follow the example or ‘sunna’ of Muhammad and his companions. Taqiyya became pivotal to Shia survival.

    Interspersed among the much more numerous Sunnis, who currently make up approximately 90 per cent of the Islamic world, the Shia often performed taqiyya by pretending to be Sunnis externally, while maintaining Shia beliefs internally, as permitted by Quranic verse 16:106. Even today, especially in those Muslim states where there is little religious freedom, the Shia still practice taqiyya. In Saudi Arabia, for instance, Shias are deemed by many of the Sunni majority to be heretics, traitors and infidels and like other non-Sunni Muslims they are often persecuted.

    Several of Saudi Arabia’s highest clerics have even issued fatwas sanctioning the killing of Shias. As a result, figures on the Arabian kingdom’s Shia population vary wildly from as low as 1 per cent to nearly 20 per cent. Many Shias living there obviously choose to conceal their religious identity. As a result of some 1,400 years of Shia taqiyya, the Sunnis often accuse the Shias of being habitual liars, insisting that taqiyya is ingrained in Shia culture.

    Conversely, the Sunnis have historically had little reason to dissemble or conceal any aspect of their faith, which would have been deemed dishonorable, especially when dealing with their historic competitors and enemies, the Christians. From the start, Islam burst out of Arabia subjugating much of the known world, and, throughout the Middle Ages, threatened to engulf all of Christendom. In a world where might made right, the Sunnis had nothing to apologise for, much less to hide from the ‘infidel’.

    Paradoxically, however, today many Sunnis are finding themselves in the Shias’ place: living as minorities in Western countries surrounded and governed by their traditional foes. The primary difference is that, extremist Sunnis and Shia tend to reject each other outright, as evidenced by the ongoing Sunni-Shia struggle in Iraq, whereas, in the West, where freedom of religion is guaranteed, Sunnis need only dissemble over a few aspects of their faith.
    http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-doctrines-of-deception

  137. Raymond Ibrahim Says:

    “Better to learn it from the Muslim scholars..(not from the anti-Islam “scholar”, or enemy of Islam’s views).”

    Rubbish.
    It`s like saying if one wants to learn about pigs one must wallow with them.

  138. Raymond Ibrahim Says:

    “For example, in case we came across by a killer. In case he asked us in his hunt for somebody, then we do not tell him that the person he was looking for was hiding at a certain place…then this kind of “lying” is “permissible”. ”

    The killer would ask you as you consort with killers.

    “Judgement Day will come only when the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, until the Jew hides behind the tree and the stone, and the tree and the stone say: ‘Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him’ – except for the Gharqad tree.”

  139. pipa Says:

    only recently, after publicly recounting a story where a Muslim tricked a Jew into converting to Islam warning him that if he tried to abandon Islam, Muslims would kill him as an apostate, Muslim cleric Mahmoud al-Masri called it a “beautiful trick.”[32] After all, from an Islamic point of view, it was the Jew who, in the end, benefitted from the deception, which brought him to Islam.
    http://www.investorsiraq.com/showthread.php?146438-Muslim-deception-quot-beautiful-trick.-quot-quot-divinely-sanctioned-right-to-deceive-quot

  140. pipa Says:

    Egyptian Cleric Mahmoud Al-Masri Recommends Tricking Jews into Becoming Muslims

  141. baraka Says:

    Al Jazeera in English has a history on the occasion of the tenth anniversary of the beginning of the second intifada.
    http://english.aljazeera.net/photo_galleries/middleeast/2010103132115872256.html

    It is filled with lies.

    e.g. For the year 2000:

    “In Gaza, a French broadcast crew captured footage of a boy called Mohammed al-Durrah being shot repeatedly by Israeli forces as he clung to his father. Moments later, a paramedic from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society was killed as he attempted to treat the boy and his father.”

    Not only was the al-Dura story exposed as a hoax, and the the paramedic story seems to have been completely made up – no such person was seen on any of the footage. (B’Tselem claims an ambulance driver was killed en route to the al-Duras, but not while attempting to treat them.)

  142. baraka Says:

    BACKGROUNDER: Mohammed Al Dura
    Anatomy of a French Media Scandal
    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=855&x_context=3

  143. baraka Says:

    The video below from this month is from the English Defence League., which is featured at the end of the video.
    Since the video is done by French journalists, the interviews are in English with a voiceover in French with English subtitles.

    In one scene, a woman seeking a divorce is being interviewed by an imam–who tells here she probably deserves the beatings she is getting.

    The highlight is at about 8:23, where Anjem Choudary, an Islamist extremist whose organization was dismantled for inciting terrorism, gives a class on Islam–and interrupts in the middle to phone in a message to a demonstration in New York to urge them on to jihad.

  144. baraka Says:

    Video: The Islamization Of London–Much More Than Just Muslims Praying In The Street

  145. Scott Thong Says:

    The Messiah, Jesus son of Maryam, was only the Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He cast into Maryam, and a Spirit from Him – loop

    Here is where you show that you have no understanding of the term ‘Messiah’. The Messiah means ‘anointed one’, i.e. the king or ruler. Many times in the Old Testament (which you say you believe, only the parts after Jesus you don’t believe right?) it is clearly stated that the Messiah = God. It doesn’t just mean ‘special prophet’ like the way you seem to think.

    So how can Jesus be ‘the one anointed to be ruler of heaven’ but not be divine? It only makes sense to those who misunderstand the term.

  146. Zack T Says:

    John 8:44 – very interesting quote, Nasaei.

    That is our Christian view of all lies, and any lie at all. All lies is considered a sin to God, who is purely holy and perfect.
    Jesus never told one lie during His time on earth, walking as a man… and we are called not to lie at all, since bearing false witness is breaking one of the Ten Commandments.

    What about Muhammad? What does he say about lying?
    Just as Nasaei said, it is permissible to lie on certain circumstances; for example when a Muslim is forced to renounce his faith or die, he is allowed to; and that is what is called ‘Taqiyya’.

    What about Christianity? What did Jesus say about that?
    Matt 10:33, “Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”
    If a Christian is called to renounce Christ or die, the biblical action would be to die for Christ; hence the long history of Christian martyrs since Jesus’ time onwards, until even now.
    (of course, those who committed such sin before can still repent and turn back to Christ, just as the apostle Peter did, when he denied Christ not once, but thrice.)

    Nasaei, “I just recommend (to anyone)..better not to refer to enemy of Islam’s writing, or believe in their lies (writing) if we were really to understand anything about Islam.”

    Then you shouldn’t learn anything about Hitler from the lies (writings) of the enemies of Hitler (Jews, US, Russians, etc)… You should learn it from the Nazi people or even Hitler himself.

    Same for Mormonism and Joseph Smith… or Jehovah’s Witness… or Hinduism, Krishna… or Scientology, Tom Cruise… etc.

    You shouldn’t believe anything the ‘enemies’ of those wrote about (all lies!!).. Only believe in what those people wrote about themselves. Yeah.. Sure, Nasaei.

  147. Zack T Says:

    “planner=cheater=deceiver according to my friend Zack? Among the three available words, according to him, “cheater” is the most correct; the most precise ! I tend to disagree with you Zack on this little piece of “translation/ interpretation..”

    Ok.. you can disagree with me, no prob… but you can’t just say there is no ‘most/more precise’ translation. Of course there is the issue of what translation is more precise and accurate.

    If this Malay sentence “Muhammad adalah seorang pembohong yang pandai” was to be translated into English: “Muhammad was a cunning planner”, it’s considered inaccurate translation, and even wrong.

    Now, let’s see why my translation is more ‘precise’ or ‘accurate’.
    Just read in context, my friend. What was the passage talking about? Jews plotting and ‘planning’ for something evil against Jesus….. BUT Allah is better than them at that, in fact, he is the BEST of them all at that!
    What is Allah best at? He is best at plotting and ‘planning’ for something evil.

  148. Scott Thong Says:

    I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.” George Bernard Shaw – loop

    Funny how nearly 100%-Islamic nations are such problematic, unpeaceful and unhappy places to live.

    Hey loop, a challenge – would you move to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan (full of Islam which you admire so much) while I move to the Bible Belt in USA (full of Christianity)?

  149. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Zack..you are funny buddy.

    We have many planners at the EPU or MAMPU Dept, JPM for example.

    No we replace the word planners, with cheater (the most precise):

    “Cheaters at the EPU and MAMPU expect better recovery for Malaysia next year, based on this year GDP growth at 6 percent..”

    Hehe.. I’m just joking Zack!

  150. Zack T Says:

    hahah… Nice try at misapplying my explanation, Nasaei.

    Won’t bother with your joke. Haha.

  151. loop Says:

    ‘Muhammad said, in more than one occasion, the bible (in their possession) was true and reliable. Not partly reliable or partly true.’

    We make it simple Zack T. If the bible is so true and reliable why then Quran totally replaced the bible once Muhammad pbuh came into the scene?

    Didn’t Allah already remind you (600 + 1400 years before ) through Jesus that the Holy spirit(Muhammad pbuh) will teach us all the truth? but then human ignorance fail to attain truth..So wrong of you Zack T to say Allah plotting and ‘planning’ for something evil.

  152. loop Says:

    ‘This one quotes the Quran saying humans were made from mud… another part of the Quran said sand… another clay.. another water… and I think about from air.’

    Again, just make it simple Zack T .Look around.. the ‘recipe’ cause people with different colour and mind..Don’t let the blind fail to attain truth

  153. loop Says:

    ‘Hey loop, a challenge – would you move to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan (full of Islam which you admire so much) while I move to the Bible Belt in USA (full of Christianity)?’

    I like that Scott because there is Mecca in Saudi Arabia. Pakistan too.Have you forgotten that the first virus for the computer was created by the Pakistani.hi!
    Really you want to US? Beware of the Jews, Scott.They are anti-Christ.ahem.

    P/s I like your ‘ahem’

  154. loop Says:

    ‘and it is my belief that the teachings that come from Muhammad’s Allah is actually from ‘*******n’.’

    Wrong Zack T. The true satan is anti-Christ.They who are planning and plotting for something evil. And Allah will send Imam Mahdi to kill them ie Dajjl. Then only Jesus will return to show his followers the truth path of life ie Islam.masyallah..

  155. Simon Thong Says:

    Didn’t Allah already remind you (600 + 1400 years before ) through Jesus that the Holy spirit(Muhammad pbuh) will teach us all the truth?

    we have already shown you that it is the Holy Spirit, not your prophet, who will teach us all the truth.

  156. Simon Thong Says:

    We make it simple Zack T. If the bible is so true and reliable why then Quran totally replaced the bible once Muhammad pbuh came into the scene?

    That is NOT true. Do we christians replace the Bible? To say so is not a reflection of history or the modern day. Indeed, the bible has become crucial to christians, and we pay no heed to what others CLAIM the Bible says.

  157. Zack T Says:

    Wow… loop…. the amount of ignorance…
    Nasaei, you gotta admit how ignorant your fellow Muslim is right here.

    loop, allow me to answer your questions and statements…

    We make it simple Zack T. If the bible is so true and reliable why then Quran totally replaced the bible once Muhammad pbuh came into the scene? ~loop

    Because Muhammad is a ***** prophet according to the bible. Simple enough for you, loop?

    Naive Muslims (like yourself) made such a naive claim that the Quran replaces the bible… when in fact, the Quran never claims such a thing. It states over and over that it is a reminder, and as I have quoted numerous times, it is never to be made any distinction between the Quran and what was already revealed to the previous prophets. It is stated to be an additional revelation along with the previous ones… not a completely new one to replace all previous ones.

    Which brings into mind something interesting to me. The Quran claims the previous scriptures are revelations from Allah, thus part of the unchangeable and incorruptable Word of Allah… but loop is claiming the bible has been corrupted.. thus Allah’s word/revelation was corrupted and changed/manipulated by mere mortals… and later on, 6 centuries later, Allah finally decided to give it another try and only now manages to keep his word unchanged and ‘uncorrupted’ (though can be proven otherwise).
    Your Allah is insufficient in power that his ‘unchangeable’/’incorruptable’ word can be corrupted and manipulated by men.

    Muhammad had never read the bible and he ************* MANY of its content (as he heard from others about it).

  158. Zack T Says:

    Didn’t Allah already remind you (600 + 1400 years before ) through Jesus that the Holy spirit(Muhammad pbuh) will teach us all the truth? but then human ignorance fail to attain truth..So wrong of you Zack T to say Allah plotting and ‘planning’ for something evil. ~loop

    loop… I’ve already established, without any room for you to wiggle around, that you yourself disagree with the bible verse where Jesus says “the spirit of truth will guide you to all truth” because you disagree with the surrounding passage.

    So, yes, your humanly ignorance has seriously hindered you from attaining the truth, loop, and you’re just circling around your own world.
    Read the whole passage of John 16 (in fact, John 14:16-17 alone is enough!) and then tell me the ‘Spirit of Truth’ Jesus was talking about was indeed Muhammad..

    “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever [no, Muhammad isn’t with us now, let alone forever]— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him [no one has ever seen Muhammad???] nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. [No, Muhammad isn’t living with me, nor is he in me]” – John 14:16-17

  159. Zack T Says:

    Wow… loop…. the amount of ignorance…
    Nasaei, you gotta admit how ignorant your fellow Muslim is right here.

    loop, allow me to answer your questions and statements…

    We make it simple Zack T. If the bible is so true and reliable why then Quran totally replaced the bible once Muhammad pbuh came into the scene? ~loop

    Because Muhammad is a ***** prophet according to the bible. Simple enough for you, loop?

    Naive Muslims (like yourself) made such a naive claim that the Quran replaces the bible… when in fact, the Quran never claims such a thing. It states over and over that it is a reminder, and as I have quoted numerous times, it is never to be made any distinction between the Quran and what was already revealed to the previous prophets. It is stated to be an additional revelation along with the previous ones… not a completely new one to replace all previous ones.

    Which brings into mind something interesting to me. The Quran claims the previous scriptures are revelations from Allah, thus part of the unchangeable and incorruptable Word of Allah… but loop is claiming the bible has been corrupted.. thus Allah’s word/revelation was corrupted and changed/manipulated by mere mortals… and later on, 6 centuries later, Allah finally decided to give it another try and only now manages to keep his word unchanged and ‘uncorrupted’ (though can be proven otherwise).
    Your Allah is insufficient in power that his ‘unchangeable’/’incorruptable’ word can be corrupted and manipulated by men.

    Muhammad had never read the bible and he ************* MANY of its content (as he heard from others about it).

    Didn’t Allah already remind you (600 + 1400 years before ) through Jesus that the Holy spirit(Muhammad pbuh) will teach us all the truth? but then human ignorance fail to attain truth..So wrong of you Zack T to say Allah plotting and ‘planning’ for something evil. ~loop

    loop… I’ve already established, without any room for you to wiggle around, that you yourself disagree with the bible verse where Jesus says “the spirit of truth will guide you to all truth” because you disagree with the surrounding passage.

    So, yes, your humanly ignorance has seriously hindered you from attaining the truth, loop, and you’re just circling around your own world.
    Read the whole passage of John 16 (in fact, John 14:16-17 alone is enough!) and then tell me the ‘Spirit of Truth’ Jesus was talking about was indeed Muhammad..

    “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever [no, Muhammad isn’t with us now, let alone forever]— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him [no one has ever seen Muhammad???] nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. [No, Muhammad isn’t living with me, nor is he in me]” – John 14:16-17

    Again, just make it simple Zack T .Look around.. the ‘recipe’ cause people with different colour and mind..Don’t let the blind fail to attain truth ~loop

    WOW!! Is that a racist statement!? the ‘recipe’ caused people to be of different colour and mind!?! So which one were you made of? Empty space? Cause I can’t help but force myself not to make any insulting joke regarding the space between your forehead and the back of your skull. [My sincerest apologies..]

    Ok… say I accept your statement. Please quote me from the Quran (or hadiths) where it is stated that people of “different color and mind” were caused by the ‘recipe’ used to create them.
    Your effort will be very much appreciated.

    Have you forgotten that the first virus for the computer was created by the Pakistani. ~loop

    Wow… he sounds real proud of that achievement… an achievement that caused so much inconvenience and trouble to the world… indeed, Islam is a religion of peace and love.
    It’s like saying “have you forgotten that the first group to successfully simultaneously attack both of the WTC Twin Towers and the Pentagon was achieved by a Muslim in a cave?”

    Really something to be proud of and proclaim as an act of peace and love in the name of your religion.

    ‘and it is my belief that the teachings that come from Muhammad’s Allah is actually from ‘*******’.’

    Wrong Zack T. The true satan is anti-Christ. ~loop

    I’m not wrong, loop. That’s exactly who Muhammad is.. one of the many ***** prophet (anti-christ/against Christ) that the bible predicted would come (don’t be confused with “The Anti-Christ”.)

  160. Zack T Says:

    loop…

    Not only did you prove yourself to be very lacking in the knowledge about the bible, by quoting “Bible 13:8-9″…

    Zack T , can you please tell me what happen if you leave christian according to Bible 13:8-9? ~loop

    You’ve now shown us how totally ignorant you are by still recanting that Muhammad is the ‘Spirit of Truth’ that Jesus spoke about, when we’ve shown you (from the context of the very verse you relied on; John 16:13) that Muhammad is clearly not who Jesus was referring to. And you agreed with my argument!!!

    ‘But if loop is appealing to this verse to prove Muhd’s ‘Allah-sent’ prophethood.. then loop has to agree with the statement Jesus made…
    That God IS the Father, making Jesus His Son, and that Jesus sent Muhammad, making Him equal with God because no mere man sends prophets.. and Muhd is supposed to declare what is Jesus’s to the people, lead them to the truth concerning sin for not believing Jesus, and also glorify Jesus!’ ~Zack T

    Muhammad did none of those because there were none of the above!! ~loop

    loop,
    I’m not being condescending or belittling you, honestly. You are obviously not very knowledgeable when it comes to defending your faith, nor are you knowledgeable in the bible and what Christians believe.

    If you really want to be an effective defender of Islam, I suggest you study more of the standard arguments by Islam and also by non-Muslims; especially the ones from www answering-islam.org.

    I pray that, with such deeper study and research you will come to know the Truth and that the truth will truly set you free from the bondage of sin. (John 14:6; not from the Quran)

  161. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Local newspaper The Star reported today, Dutch anti-Islam politician Geert Wilders went on trial for alleged hate speeches he delivered in Holland.

    So the court had the basis for hearing the case and prosecute him !

    Why prosecute him? If what he was doing is correct, he should be given an award e.g. a Nobel Prize or such things, instead.

    Good works Wilders !

  162. Scott Thong Says:

    We make it simple Zack T. If the bible is so true and reliable why then Quran totally replaced the bible once Muhammad pbuh came into the scene? – loop

    Let me try the same logic as you are using, loop.

    If the Quran (632 A.D.) is so true and reliable, then why Sikhism (1469 A.D.) totally replaced it once Guru Nanak came into the scene?

    If the Quran (632 A.D.) is so true and reliable, then why Book of Mormon (1830 A.D.) totally replaced it once Joseph Smith came into the scene?

    If the Quran (632 A.D.) is so true and reliable, then why Sky Kingdom (1970s A.D.) totally replaced it once Ayah Pin came into the scene?

    Or if you say all the above are false prophets spreading fake religion, then can you see why we don’t believe that ‘Quran totally replaced the bible’?

  163. Scott Thong Says:

    Didn’t Allah already remind you (600 + 1400 years before ) through Jesus that the Holy spirit(Muhammad pbuh) will teach us all the truth? – loop

    Didn’t I already point out, loop, and Zack repeats – the Holy Spirit is supposed to live with us and in us forever. So if Mohammad really is the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised, he is inside the body of every Christian as I joked!

    I was making a joke to point out how silly is your claim that Mohammad is the Holy Spirit. Instead of realizing your silliness, you said I am full of anti-Islamicness.

    So to drive home my point, here is what happens when a physical being ‘lives in me’:

    FOREVER!!!

  164. Scott Thong Says:

    I like that Scott because there is Mecca in Saudi Arabia. Pakistan too.Have you forgotten that the first virus for the computer was created by the Pakistani.hi!
    Really you want to US? Beware of the Jews, Scott.They are anti-Christ.ahem. – loop

    I cannot name even one case where a Jew killed a Christian in America.

    Meanwhile, I can cite hundreds of reports of Muslims killing Muslims in Pakistan.

    So okay, I’ll go to the USA and you go to Pakistan, yes?

  165. Scott Thong Says:

    Why prosecute him? If what he was doing is correct, he should be given an award e.g. a Nobel Prize or such things, instead.

    Good works Wilders ! – Nasaei Ahmad

    So Nasaei, just because nobody prosecutes or sues the imams who say that Muslims must behead the nonMuslims, conquer Rome and kill Tony Blair, does that mean it is correct?

  166. Zack T Says:

    So Nasaei, just because nobody prosecutes or sues the imams who say that Muslims must behead the nonMuslims, conquer Rome and kill Tony Blair, does that mean it is correct? ~Scott Thong

    Dam straight… Nobody prosecuted Hitler when he was gaining and held power in Germany… and killing countless lives with his ‘Arian’ agenda…

    It was only when he started to war with everyone else did people find reason to take him down.

    Same for Joseph Smith… when he started Mormonism, no one found any problem with him and his adulterous polygamy, etc…
    it was only when people were getting killed for leaving the ‘cult’ and too many were getting conned that people started to go after Smith..

    Same for Muhammad… he, aged around 50, married a 6-year-old girl… (Sahih Buhkari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234; Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Number 3309)
    and consummated the marriage (read: had s3x with her) 3 years later.. (Sahih Bukhari vol. 7, #65; Sunan of Abu Dawud, volume 2, #2116; “The History of Tabari”, volume 9, page 131)…
    If Muhammad had been in most of any other location in the world, he would be prosecuted and charged as a pedophile.

  167. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    “I cannot name even one case where a Jew killed a Christian in America”.

    But who kill Jesus, not Jews ?

    Jews crucified him. Not Hindus or Buddhists.

  168. Scott Thong Says:

    Uh, Nasaei, that was 2000 years ago. And not in America. And Jesus was a Jew too. In fact, everyone in the area was a Jew except for the Roman occupiers, so it’s not really a point to say Jews killed Jesus.

  169. Simon Thong Says:

    The Jews who killed Jesus are not the Jews of today. The fact that Jews killed Jesus then doesn’t mean that the Jews in America will kill christians. Nor will China Jews kill christian just because they are Jews and we are chistians. A little boy’s mentality, Nasaei.

  170. Zack T Says:

    1 – As Simon says, Jews aren’t out to kill Christians…. or anyone actually… according to their Scripture. Whereas Muslims are… many using their Quran or whatever Islamic scripture to support their (extremist or fundamentalist) ideals.

    2 – As Scott says, Jesus was a Jew. The case of Jews killing Jesus was a case of Jews killing a Jew…. and that was according to their scripture, where they accused Jesus of blasphemy, equating Himself to God.

    And it’s ironic that both you and loop as Muslims disagree with the historical account that Jesus was actually crucified… but yet here you are speaking about it as if it did happen. Isn’t it ironic?

  171. Simon Thong Says:

    Lots of conspiracy theories around, like Dr M echoing others who suspect the US govt of being responsible for 911.

    Maybe someone will say that the Jews gassed the Jews in WW2?

  172. Zack T Says:

    I am familiar with some of those conspiracy theories and to quite some extent agree and take their side. I have my own view of what’s happening, but that’s purely my own opinion.

    Anyways.. yes, there are some who have already, in a way, say Jews (Zionist, to be exact) are responsible for gassing the Jews… I think more indirectly (through Hitler), than directly…

  173. Jamie Says:

    Poor Jews get blamed for everything, even orchestrating their own mass murders.

    They were also the cause of the Icelandic volcano eruption, the Aceh tsunami, Sichuan earthquake, mass whale beaching in NZ, NZ earthquake in Christchurch, extinction of the Dodo bird, even extinction of the dinosaurs.

    (Well, no one has claimed as such yet but certainly the charges people lay against the Jews are up there in how ridiculous they are)

  174. Scott Thong Says:

    2 – As Scott says, Jesus was a Jew. The case of Jews killing Jesus was a case of Jews killing a Jew…. and that was according to their scripture, where they accused Jesus of blasphemy, equating Himself to God. – Zack T

    Ah yes, a very interesting point there. In the Bible, Jesus is condemned by the chief priests for ‘blasphemy’ – equating Himself to God. Other times, they asked how dare He say that, and wanted to stone Him for it. So very clearly in the Bible, Jesus equated Himself to God.

    I’ve been wondering, why did the Jews try to kill Isa according to the Islamic understanding? What was Isa’s crime that was punishable by death? Nasaei or loop can share, or Zack with his reading on the subject?

  175. Scott Thong Says:

    Maybe someone will say that the Jews gassed the Jews in WW2? – Simon Thong

    Hamas TV: The Jews Carried Out the Holocaust on Themselves

    Can’t make up their minds whether the Holocaust is fakery, or the Jews did it.

    I’ll give that some Jews were complicit with the Nazi plans, in order to (futilely) try and save themselves or get better treatment.

  176. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    May I shift the topic a bit, friends. Is it true early Christians did not believe Jesus was God? I never made an extensive research on this. However we..every now and then heard this claim. I think you all didn’t watch the Youtube video that I posted here recently regarding such a claim. Please watch it to verify. As I said, I don’t think it was fake, since the it was conducted the Western TV preview. If an established TV station made (purportedly) such a false claim, then it may be used !

    The Youtube video entitled: “An Old Bible Found in Palestine Confirms the Quran True” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDrObm8aotM&feature=related)

    Honestly, I have no intention to ridicule, but for the sake of dialogue, and finding truth – for us. I think we should give any appropriate comment before watching it. TQ.

  177. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Typo error. It (TV) may be sued.

  178. Zack T Says:

    I’ve been wondering, why did the Jews try to kill Isa according to the Islamic understanding? What was Isa’s crime that was punishable by death? ~Scott Thong

    Very good question.. one I have yet to hear any answers to that question from a Muslim..

    I myself don know what is a Muslim’s stand on why ‘Isa’ was plotted against to be crucified/killed..
    I can think of only one possibility, but I’ll leave it to our Muslim friends to explain as best as they can about this.

    And Nasaei…. are you saying whatever is shown on Western TV, must be the truth?
    What about all the people on TV saying sex before marriage is good and acceptable by God or for you, Allah?
    What about all the people on TV saying Christianity is true and Jesus IS the only way to God?

    Just because it appears on TV (any of them), doesn’t mean it is, without any doubt, true and approved by everyone.
    And in America, there is something called ‘freedom’… people are free to show anything they want on TV… speak anything they want out in public…
    And people are also free to be offended by those people and they have a right to sue depending on their own judgment (whether the court will be on their side is another matter).

    I’ll view the video and get back to you on what I thought of it. Thanks for sharing.

  179. Simon Thong Says:

    The youtube upload is unlikely to be important; it’s about the Didache, The teachings of the Twelve Apostles, which was not included into the New Testament. It claims to be a record of the words of Jesus, recorded by James his brother. As far as has been established, it is anonymous. Its contents do not challenge or support anything to do with Jesus as god. A waste of time to bring it into the discussion.

  180. Zack T Says:

    I was wondering what the name of the book was.. Thanks for mentioning it, Simon.

    Now, I’ve watched the video and also looked up online regarding the book.
    Apparently Christians don’t seem at all troubled by this book…. Why? Because it neither support nor denies Jesus… and I submit to you, it leans more to supporting than it does denying.

    Let me explain why…
    1 – I noticed Archbishop Aristarchos (the old bearded man interviewed who brought out the book) seems to me to be a believer that Christ is divine. (unless the audio of the video was that bad that I misunderstood what he said)

    2 – The video made mentioned that the book wrote “Jesus Your servant”, instead of “Jesus Your Son”, or something to that effect. Christians and the bible have no problem with Jesus being a servant or a slave of God… as we, as Christians, are to be servants/slaves to God/Jesus.

    3 – I’ve read some parts of the Didache (Christians aren’t afraid to have this book in their collection, apparently). In Chapter 7 of the book, it talks about baptism, and it says in the very first verse of the chapter: “…having first recited all these precepts, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in running water…”

    Two places online you can read the Didache for yourselves:
    -> http: carm.org/christianity/miscellaneous-topics/didache
    -> www newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

    So, in the end, this video was being deceptive in claiming that the Didache supports the Quran or even supports the belief that Jesus was never divine…. because it never explicitly says any such things nor does it explicitly or implicitly denies such… but it does implicitly support Jesus’ divinity.
    Thank you, Nasaei for the extra knowledge you have blessed me to gain.

  181. Zack T Says:

    Oh.. just to clarify further on my point 2…

    In the Trinity doctrine, God the Father, Jesus the Son and Holy Spirit are equal in power and divinity… but there is a difference in ranking; The Father is greater than the Son, and the Holy Spirit is sent by the Son and is depicted typologically in the bible as the unnamed servant… e.g. Abraham and his servant, the one who brought back Isaac’s wife-to-be and was unnamed throughout that episode..

  182. Simon Thong Says:

    Loop said

    We make it simple Zack T. If the bible is so true and reliable why then Quran totally replaced the bible once Muhammad pbuh came into the scene?

    THE MOST POPULAR BOOK OF ALL TIME
    1. The Bible
    Author: God
    Copies sold: 6,000,000,000
    Read more: SoYouWanna know the ten most popular books of all time? | SoYouWanna.com http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/toptens/books/books4.html#ixzz11UbN7ICz

  183. Simon Thong Says:

    Loop said

    We make it simple Zack T. If the bible is so true and reliable why then Quran totally replaced the bible once Muhammad pbuh came into the scene?

    How could that be. Look at this:

    THE MOST POPULAR BOOK OF ALL TIME
    1. The Bible
    Author: God
    Copies sold: 6,000,000,000
    Read more: SoYouWanna know the ten most popular books of all time? | SoYouWanna.com http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/toptens/books/books4.html#ixzz11UbN7ICz

  184. Simon Thong Says:

    Zack T So, in the end, this video was being deceptive in claiming that the Didache supports the Quran or even supports the belief that Jesus was never divine…

    I think the vidoe was mischievous and unscrupulos in its claim.

  185. loop Says:

    ‘Muhammad had never read the bible ..’

    Muhammad pbuh had never read the bible..I was practically overwhelmed by a veritable avalanche . That St. Paul, a man who had never met Jesus (pbuh) personally, and the author of the majority of the books of the NewTestament, had seriously corrupted the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) and substituted them with his own “version” of Christianity totally in opposition to that which Jesus (pbuh) and his apostles had taught their followers. I was astounded to see that even with the many thousands of Christian publications, from eminent Christian scholars, which, to one degree or another readily admit these facts, still, Christianity as a whole is all but ignorant of these matters.

  186. loop Says:

    The facts is that copies of the original Gospels of the apostles of Jesus (pbuh) begin to surface. They are found, of all places, hidden away in the capital of Christianity, the Vatican itself.

    And these Gospels (Such as the “Gospel of Barnabas,” or the “Shepherd of Hermas”) confirm the teachings of the Qur’an!!

    And these copies of Gospels are having a tendency to disappear mysteriously!!

  187. Simon Thong Says:

    Substantiate your claim that
    “many thousands of Christian publications, from eminent Christian scholars, which, to one degree or another readily admit these facts” (that Paul corrupted the teachings of Jesus and substituted them with his own)

    What thousands of Christian publications?

    Another unsubstantiated claim is that the ” Quran totally replaced the bible once Muhammad pbuh came into the scene?” TOTALLY REPLACED the bible. WHAT are you reading? Don’t you know that 3.9 billion bibles have been published, and it’s still no 1? see http://squidoo.com/mostreadbooks#module42878732

    Please don’t try to make me laugh with your pathetic claims.

  188. loop Says:

    ‘And to add more to your trouble.. we have the Dead Sea Scrolls (among other manuscripts) that date earlier than 600 A.D. (even up to B.C.) and have proven that the current bible is still accurately preserved throughout these millenniums.’

    The Dead Sea Scrolls are discovered in 1947. For close to forty five years, they are hoarded in Israel and hidden from the masses. When they are finally forced out into the open, an amazing discovery is made. They too confirm the Qur’an!

    You are hiding that point from me Zack T

  189. Zack T Says:

    The Dead Sea Scrolls … too confirm the Qur’an! ~loop

    Wow… this is a bold claim, coming from someone who couldn’t even quote the bible properly…

    As demanded, please substantiate your claim with actual evidence or actual logical, rational arguments, instead of throwing statements after statement, without any substance.

    I will await your explanation on how the Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the Quran.

  190. Zack T Says:

    More baseless arguments that are self-destructing for you, loop, as a Muslim.
    Allow me to show you how…

    St Paul and his ‘Christian Gospel corruption’

    Yes, as Simon demanded, please substantiate your very over-generalizing statement.
    Or at least, explain to us how ‘overwhelming’ was the ‘veritable avalanche’ you speak of. Let us discuss what you know, or claim to know.

    Next, I’m gonna assume this claim of yours is true for the moment. Let’s see how that will work out for you…

    Paul, an apostle who came on the scene only some years after Jesus’ death, resurrection and ascension to Heaven. He was persecuting Christians viciously at that time… and then, suddenly, decided to convert and “start his own religion”…

    1 – Very unlikely scenario, given the circumstances of him persecuting Christians viciously/vigorously and also the mindset of Jews during those times; you can refer to the 1st Century historians who study about this. If you disagree, then you don’t know the Jews… I’m serious.

    2 – Paul’s gospel was only some years after Jesus’ death/resurrection/ascension… as compared to what you believe, loop.. A ‘prophet’ almost 600 years after Jesus, hundreds of miles away from Israel/Jerusalem who never even read the bible for himself…

    Any historian will tell you, they’d rather go with Paul’s gospel, than Muhammad’s, to know more about the historical Jesus.

  191. Zack T Says:

    The Other Gospels

    I don’t know where the gospel of Barnabas or others are found… and frankly, they’re irrelevant because they are well established to be writings later than the 1st Century.. and are most likely, earliest, 2nd-3rd Century writings.

    Now… let’s take a look at the Gospel of Barnabas…

    taken from www answering-islam.org/Green/barnabas.htm:
    The Gospel of Barnabas overwhelmingly supports the teaching of Islam. However, there are a few rare occasions when it does not.

    a/ The Messiah. The Qur’an teaches that Jesus is the Messiah, and it never teaches that Muhammad is the Messiah (Quran 3:45)
    However, the Gospel of Barnabas denies that Jesus is the Messiah, and instead says Muhammad is the Messiah:
    Jesus confessed and said the truth, “I am not the Messiah”. (chap. 42). Then said the priest: “How shall the Messiah be called?” … (Jesus answered) “Muhammed is his blessed name” (chap. 97).

    b/ Wives. Marriage in the Qur’an binds a woman to one man but it does not bind a man to one woman. Muslim men are free to have several wives (Qur’an 4:3) and an unlimited number of female servants (Qur’an 70:30). However, the Gospel of Barnabas teaches the Biblical idea of marriage, that marriage binds a man and a woman equally together:
    Let a man content himself therefore with the wife whom his creator has given him, and let him forget every other woman (chap. 115).

    c/ The Birth of Jesus. The Qur’an clearly teaches that Mary had pain when she gave birth to Jesus (Quran 19:22-23), while the gospel of Barnabas says the opposite: The virgin was surrounded by a light exceeding bright, and brought forth her son without pain (chap. 3).

    d/ The Heavens. The Qur’an teaches that there are seven heavens: The seven heavens and the earth praise Him (Qur’an 17:44, Pickthall). However the Gospel of Barnabas teaches that there are nine heavens:
    Verily I say unto thee that the heavens are nine, among which are set the planets, that are distant one from another five hundred years journey for a man (chap. 178).

    And more problems with the Gospel of Barnabas ->
    www answering-islam.org/Green/barnabas.htm

    And these copies of Gospels are having a tendency to disappear mysteriously!! ~loop

    Yeah… strange that if those gospels were revelation from Allah, it shouldn’t be the case, should it?

    Understand now how ‘self-destructing’ your statements are?

  192. Simon Thong Says:

    I go to church and I see no Quran. I see bibles everywhere, in the hands of worshippers, at the pews, in the cupboards. When the preacher begins, he reads from the bible, This is seen in every church throughout the world. At home, I have several bibles, of different versions, in English. I also have a Greek NT. A Chinese version, which will be given away when a new convert is Chinese educated. BM ones already given away. How did the Quran replace the Bible. Are there more christians or muslims?

  193. Simon Thong Says:

    Do you want to play the numbers game? See this from wikipedia:

    Religious category↓ Number of followers
    (in millions)↓ Cultural tradition↓ Main regions covered
    Christianity 1,855–2,288

    .
    Islam 1,655-1,950

    How many Qurans does the normal muslim have, if any? Note also that the bible is the most-shoplifted book in the world. Just google “most shoplifted book” and you’ll see what I mean. In many hotels all over the world, a gideon bible is to be found in each room. I found a gideon bible and a copy of the buddhist scriptures in my hotel room in Chiangma, Thailand, recently.

  194. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thank you all of my friends here – Zack T, Simon and Scott himself. This kind of attitude we need in a cordial discussion or religious dialogue. I mean, you didn’t bombard or “shoot” me with the “ballistic missiles” for telling you the existence of such a Youtube video. I myself can’t verify it for sure. And I just have very little knowledge about the bible.

    Then…”Quran replaced Bible?”

    I think one should clarify the meaning of “replace” in the first place..or what does it mean. From Muslim’s point of view, it maybe acceptable, because God has sent many holy books; the old is replaced by the later one, more or less. For Christians, never such things.

  195. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    “…The Bible is not a sex manual but a book of religious truth and moral guidelines and we know it says homosexuality is wrong because God created a man and a woman and gave them the command to procreate. Sex is not only for procreation but recreation as the Bible also suggests but within the sacred institution of marriage between a man and a woman.

    If people enjoy anal sex, that is their business but it does not negate the scientific view that the anus is not made for sex..”
    – I quote Scott writing.

    It is extremely funny and humorous writing by Scott! It fits a ‘pay-per view-comic’ magazine !

    I doubted if certain peoples might have misconstrued Bible gave them license or green light – since it (Bible) recorded quite many stories about sex ? Even a drunken prophet did it with his very own daughter ?? Unbelievable !

    As we notice, recently the Pope himself offered apology on behalf of priests that almost tarnished the image of whole ‘christendom’ by their pedophile acts.. misused their position to lure boys..and… sod****** them. They were like terrorists (who happened to be Muslims) who tarnished the image of Islam /Muslims as a whole-by their “suicide” acts.

  196. Simon Thong Says:

    A person should know as much as he could about his own religion, its holy book, its history and contemporary developments. Youtube is a channel for people to share but some will PUSH their view down our throats.

    Some of your fellow believers will know a lot about your religion; most will not. It is only slightly better among christians, but still better because every christian, if they want to, can get a bible and read it for themselves. They can ask questions without being accused of challenging the religion. There is much more freedom.

  197. yukyuk Says:

    loop Says:
    October 5, 10 at 11:28 pm

    The facts is that copies of the original Gospels of the apostles of Jesus (pbuh) begin to surface. They are found, of all places, hidden away in the capital of Christianity, the Vatican itself.
    _____________________________________

    Now we are informed he has been allowed there? And this “god`s gift” then says Dead Sea Scrolls confirm Quran. Narcissistic as they come but great clowns.
    ROTFLMAO!!

  198. yukyuk Says:

    loop Says:
    October 5, 10 at 11:28 pm

    The facts is that copies of the original Gospels of the apostles of Jesus (pbuh) begin to surface. They are found, of all places, hidden away in the capital of Christianity, the Vatican itself.
    *********************

    Now we are informed he has been allowed there? And this “god`s gift” then says Dead Sea Scrolls confirm Quran. Narcissistic as they come but great clowns.
    ROTFLMAO!!

  199. solow Says:

    Nothing konfirms quran

  200. solow Says:

    Al-Rawandi concludes that the Sira, the life of Mohammed in Mecca and Medina, is a myth, a “baseless fiction.” This is the conclusion of a substantial number of serious academic historians working in Islamic studies today. They include Mohammed Ibn al-Warraq, Mohammed Ibn al-Rawandi, John Wansbrough, Kenneth Cragg, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, John Burton, Andrew Rippin, Julian Baldick, Gerald Hawting, and Suliman Bashear. Yet they and their research are virtually unknown.
    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/24/152943.shtml

  201. solow Says:

    Mecca is located in the Hejaz region of what is today Saudi Arabia. It is portrayed by traditional belief as a wealthy trading center, full of merchants trading goods by caravan from Yemen in the south and Syria and the Byzantium empire in the north. Crone shows that Mecca was in fact way off the incense route from Yemen to Syria, which bypassed where Mecca is today by over 100 miles. Further, there is no mention whatever of Mecca in contemporary non-Moslem sources:

    It is obvious that if the Meccans had been middlemen in a long-distance trade of the kind described in (traditional Islamic) literature, there ought to have been some mention of it in the writings of their customers … who wrote extensively about the south Arabians who supplied them with aromatics. (Despite) the considerable attention paid to Arabian affairs there is no mention at all of Quraysh (the tribe of Mohammed) and their trading center (Mecca), be it in the Greek, Latin, Syraic, Aramaic, Coptic, or other literature composed outside Arabia . (p. 134)
    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/24/152943.shtml

  202. Zack T Says:

    Nasaei,
    I’m glad you are satisfied and pleased with our calm conduct throughout this discussion, overall wise.
    I am always willing to teach the truth and commit my act to God that He will use it for His glory and lead the unbelievers of Jesus and what He has done to conviction and into His saving grace.

    Even a drunken prophet did it with his very own daughter ?? Unbelievable! ~Nasaei

    Nasaei, I’m getting rather disappointed and maybe even slightly upset that you seem to never register in your head the proper context of what had happened here, with Lot and his two daughters.
    With much clear and rational clarification from me regarding this, but yet your stance remain unchanged (with no reasons to deny my reasoning), then you only appear to be either very stubbornly dense…. or purposely deceitful.

    Would you say ‘the drunken victim did it with her rapist’? If you do, then you have a much bigger problem than what the bible is describing.
    Once again I will clarify to you what the bible recorded, with regards to Lot and his daughters…

    1 – It wasn’t Lot’s idea to ‘do it’ with his daughters.
    Gen 19:31, “And the firstborn [of Lot’s daughters] said to the younger, ‘Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth.’ ”
    The daughters (or at least the elder one) thought the whole earth was destroyed and now it was only them three who are still alive. She probably was recalling back Noah’s flood; where it was only Noah and his family that survived/lived.

    2 – Lot was drunk, utterly drunk… to the point of, I would imagine, unconsciousness.
    Gen 19:33, “So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
    Gen 19:35, “So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.

    It’s not difficult for a female to ‘ride’ on an unconscious male… in case you haven’t realized.

  203. Zack T Says:

    As we notice, recently the Pope himself offered apology on behalf of priests that almost tarnished the image of whole ‘christendom’ by their pedophile acts.. misused their position to lure boys..and… sod****** them. They were like terrorists (who happened to be Muslims) who tarnished the image of Islam /Muslims as a whole-by their “suicide” acts. ~Nasaei

    Once again, I call for a proper perspective and a more equivalent comparison. Let me explain..

    Those Catholic priests sinned, and were in obvious err with the Scripture which they believe in (or at least claimed to). I doubt they were quoting Scripture (both Christian or Catholic) in defense of what they did.

    Muslim terrorists, on the other hand, happily and proudly quote the Quran and Muhammad’s saying to justify and give reason to why they do what they want to do; kill the unbelievers, Jews, other Muslims and even they themselves.

  204. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Maybe you’re right Zack, but I’m speaking from the bottom of my heart…very frankly, I have never heard such things..news any of them said, for instance: “My action is in tandem with the Islamic teaching..see, this is the Quranic verses/ or the relevant hadiths that support it!”.

    Let’s share the sources that you have. If they really claimed Quran/hadiths encourage such acts, that means they interpret Quran by their own interpretations. As I said before, killing a non Muslims in Saudi Arabia (for example)..and in Malaysia would be “calling for gallows” for you. Which laws did Saudi follows?

    So, private or individual interpretations of Quran is wrong I think. Interpretations by the enemy of Islam usually, as I noticed were more deviating. TQ

  205. Scott Thong Says:

    That St. Paul, a man who had never met Jesus (pbuh) personally, and the author of the majority of the books of the NewTestament, had seriously corrupted the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) and substituted them with his own “version” of Christianity totally in opposition to that which Jesus (pbuh) and his apostles had taught their followers. – loop

    This allegation is about as founded as the title of the video on the Didache.

    How about some comparisons:

    Paul – Pray in name of Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
    Jesus – Go in name of Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

    Paul – Worship Jesus.
    Jesus – Worship Me.

  206. Scott Thong Says:

    And these Gospels (Such as the “Gospel of Barnabas,” or the “Shepherd of Hermas”) confirm the teachings of the Qur’an!!

    And these copies of Gospels are having a tendency to disappear mysteriously!! – loop

    More like a tendency to ‘appear suddenly’. Gospel of Barnabas earliest copy was only from 1700s, and is full of amateurish factual mistakes, so was likely written as a forgery by a Muslim. Imagine that, would that count as ‘taqiyya’?

    In fact, we’ve raised these points before, but as usual loop either ignores, forgets or pretends never knew.

    And as I said before too – how about if I showed a copy of THE REAL QURAN REALLY REAL, which is claimed to be the actual real Quran that Caliph Uthman never managed to burn, and has the stunning revelation that Mohammad never claimed to be a prophet, but was hidden inside Mecca for 100 years (earliest copy is from 1900 A.D., produced using type-writer). Also, it says that Medinah is on an island in the middle of the Arctic ocean.

    Would you believe it is true?

    If not, why do you think Christians should think of Gospel of Barnabas etc to be true when they are so obviously fake?

    But srsly, Zack’s comparing how the Gospel of Barnabas clashes with the Quran is the best answer! Haha!

  207. Scott Thong Says:

    The Dead Sea Scrolls … too confirm the Qur’an! ~loop

    On the contrary to loop’s claim, I posted on this before:

    Historically Corroborated: Jesus Fulfilled 129 Messianic Prophecies Made in Isaiah 335 Years Earlier

    basically, Dead Sea Scrolls contains book of Isaiah. This is more than 99.5% same as modern Bible’s version. Both versions say that Messiah will be divine.

  208. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    However, Bible consists of many parts, and not Isaiah alone isn’t ? Is it Isaiah covers, or represents all parts ? Peoples say, the “discrepancies” (scientifically unacceptable..and “contradictions” are from the rest of the Bible – maybe including by OT as well ?

    I don’t know for sure. I appreciate an explanation.

  209. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    And..appreciate if Loop could verify or explain further, how or what DSS “confirmed” Quran as he said.

  210. black eyed peas Says:

    The Muslim scholar Cyril Glassé states:

    As regards the “Gospel of Barnabas” itself, there is no question that it is a medieval forgery. A complete Italian manuscript exists which appears to be a translation from a Spanish original (which exists in part), written to curry favor with Muslims of the time. It contains anachronisms which can date only from the Middle Ages and not before, and shows a garbled comprehension of Islamic doctrines, calling the Prophet “the Messiah”, which Islam does not claim for him. Besides its farcical notion of sacred history, stylistically it is a mediocre parody of the Gospels, as the writings of Baha’Allah are of the Koran.

    The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, Harper & Row, 1989, p. 64

  211. black eyed peas Says:

    Many Muslims have pointed to the so-called Gospel of Barnabas as being a source document about the Muslim Jesus. This document portrays a Jesus who is radically Islamic. Many believe that this so-called Gospel was possibly written around the year 1600 by a Muslim living in Spain. It was certainly not written by the Barnabas who was a contemporary of Paul.

  212. black eyed peas Says:

    The earliest document mentioning a Barnabas gospel which is generally agreed to correspond with the one found in the two known manuscripts is reported to be contained in Morisco manuscript BNM MS 9653 in Madrid, written about 1634 by Ibrahim al-Taybili in Tunisia.
    While describing how the Bible predicts Muhammad, he speaks of the “Gospel of Saint Barnabas where one can find the light”. It was mentioned again in 1718 by the Irish deist John Toland, and was mentioned in 1734 by George Sale in The Preliminary Discourse to the Koran:

    The Mohammedans have also a Gospel in Arabic, attributed to St. Barnabas, wherein the history of Jesus Christ is related in a manner very different from what we find in the true Gospels, and correspondent to those traditions which Mohammed has followed in his Koran. Of this Gospel the Moriscoes in Africa have a translation in Spanish; and there is in the library of Prince Eugene of Savoy, a manuscript of some antiquity, containing an Italian translation of the same Gospel, made, it is to be supposed, for the use of renegades. This book appears to be no original forgery of the Mohammedans, though they have no doubt interpolated and altered it since, the better to serve their purpose; and in particular, instead of the Paraclete or Comforter, they have, in this apocryphal gospel, inserted the word Periclyte, that is, the famous or illustrious, by which they pretend their prophet was foretold by name, that being the signification of Mohammed in Arabic; and this they say to justify that passage in the Koran where Jesus Christ is formally asserted to have foretold his coming under his other name Ahmed, which is derived from the same root as Mohammed and of the same import.

  213. black eyed peas Says:

    And..appreciate if Loop could verify or explain further, how or what DSS “confirmed” Quran as he said.

    AFTER reading and understanding:
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/D/dss1.html

  214. klokwork Says:

    Funny sounding Hindu terrorist busted with 1 kilo uranium
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Man-caught-with-uranium-in-Purulia-/articleshow/6680540.cms

  215. klokwork Says:

    As I said before, killing a non Muslims in Saudi Arabia (for example)..and in Malaysia would be “calling for gallows” for you. Which laws did Saudi follows?
    ____________

    Gay Saudi Prince, Grandson of King Abdullah, Brutally Murders His Black Sex Slave

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-11477062

  216. casava Says:

    Oh that Saudi prince killed the black cos the black was corrupting the prince`s morals.
    Perfectly ok, like perkasa want in malaysia (unless Vincent Tan will give Ibrahim Ali more shares).

  217. Scott Thong Says:

    If people enjoy anal sex, that is their business but it does not negate the scientific view that the anus is not made for sex..”
    – I quote Scott writing.

    It is extremely funny and humorous writing by Scott! It fits a ‘pay-per view-comic’ magazine ! – Nasaei

    That was actually Steve Oh, I was just quoting what he said. You can tell because the sections I quote are always pushed into a narrower column, just see how I quoted your comment above.

    You are right to doubt that anyone uses the Bible as a license for sex – as when read in context, it clearly condemns such actions as drunken Lot being seduced by his daughters, Amnon raping Tamar, David committing adultery with Bathsheba, etc.

    In fact, an observant reader will realize just how serious the result of Lot’s family’s sin was – the children born of the incestuous, extra-marital act were named Moab and Ammon. Generations later, the Moabites and the Ammonites were some of Israel’s most vicious enemies.

    But imagine if there were a mosque which declared that all homosexuals are welcome, and not only that, they teach that homosexuality is allowed by Islam. I think we all know that they would not operate even two days before everyone is arrested under the ISA!

    Would that way be better – stopping heresy before it spreads and starts claiming legitimacy for itself? Or is it better to give complete freedom at the risk of heretical groups sprouting and expanding?

    What do you think, Nasaei, loop, Zack, Simon, and any irreligious commentors still following the discussion?

  218. casava Says:

    killing of non muslims is legitimate

  219. Scott Thong Says:

    Besides its farcical notion of sacred history, stylistically it is a mediocre parody of the Gospels, as the writings of Baha’Allah are of the Koran. – black eyed peas

    Good point… So loop, do you consider the Bahai scriptures to be the ‘real truth about religion and God’ that replaces Islam and the Quran? Why not?

  220. black eyed peas Says:

    It is not necessary to kill non muslims in malaysia, when the idea is to convert them……at least until muslims are about 90% of popn then more “active” measures can be taken. For the moment eg suppressing the dhimmis has created more mamaks.

  221. Scott Thong Says:

    It was certainly not written by the Barnabas who was a contemporary of Paul. – black eyed peas

    Especially since Barnabas is just a nickname given to him by the Apostles. It means ‘son of encouragement’, as he generously sold his possessions and gave the money to the young church. His real name was simply Joseph.

  222. klokwork Says:

    Caught on CCTV: Moment gay Saudi prince attacked manservant in hotel lift… months before he ‘sexually abused and battered him to death’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1317865/Gay-Saudi-prince-strangled-servant-Landmark-hotel-sexually-motivated-killing.html#ixzz11YehAwqA

  223. Raymond Ibrahim Says:

    The Saudi king ought to stop killing non-Muslims first

    ..prominent Saudi Sheikh Abdul Rahman Barack issued a death-fatwa against two Saudi writers. Their crime? They wrote articles in the Saudi paper Al-Riyadh questioning the Muslim position that holds all non-Muslims — whom the Saudi king would otherwise call “brothers” — as infidels. According to the Arab News, Barack said: “Anyone who claims this [that non-Muslims are not infidels] has refuted Islam and should be tried so that he can take it back. If not, he should be killed as an apostate from the religion of Islam.”

  224. Raymond Ibrahim Says:

    For all the Saudi king’s “gestures” of peace and goodwill, what Saudi children are being taught on a daily basis says it all. “New Report Shows Saudi Ministry Textbooks Still Teach Extreme Intolerance,”:

    This report compares the 2007-2008 textbooks that are currently posted on the website of the Saudi Ministry of Education.
    They assert that unbelievers, such as Christians, Jews, and Muslims who do not share Wahhabi beliefs and practices, are hated “enemies.” No argument is made here that such references to jihad mean only spiritual and defensive struggles.

    Lessons remain that Jews and Christians are apes and swine, Jews conspire to “gain sole control over the world,”

    They teach that it is permissible for a Muslim to kill an “apostate,” an “adulterer,” and those practicing “major polytheism.” Shiites are among those identified as “polytheists.” One lesson states that “it is not permissible to violate the blood, property, or honor of the unbeliever who makes a compact with the Muslims,” but is pointedly silent on whether security guarantees are extended to non-Muslims without such a compact. Other lessons demonize members of the Baha’i and Ahmadiyya groups.
    http://www.hudson.org/files/pdf_upload/textbooks_final_for_pdf.pdf

  225. Raymond Ibrahim Says:

    For all the Saudi king’s “gestures” of peace and goodwill, what Saudi children are being taught on a daily basis says it all. “New Report Shows Saudi Ministry Textbooks Still Teach Extreme Intolerance,”::

    This report compares the 2007-2008 textbooks that are currently posted on the website of the Saudi Ministry of Education.
    They assert that unbelievers, such as Christians, Jews, and Muslims who do not share Wahhabi beliefs and practices, are hated “enemies.” No argument is made here that such references to jihad mean only spiritual and defensive struggles.

    Lessons remain that Jews and Christians are apes and swine, Jews conspire to “gain sole control over the world,”

    They teach that it is permissible for a Muslim to kill an “apostate,” an “adulterer,” and those practicing “major polytheism.” Shiites are among those identified as “polytheists.” One lesson states that “it is not permissible to violate the blood, property, or honor of the unbeliever who makes a compact with the Muslims,” but is pointedly silent on whether security guarantees are extended to non-Muslims without such a compact. Other lessons demonize members of the Baha’i and Ahmadiyya groups.
    http://www.hudson.org/files/pdf_upload/textbooks_final_for_pdf.pdf

  226. Raymond Ibrahim Says:

    The Federal Territory mufti, Dato’ Mohamed Yusof Hussain, invites Raja Petra over to show how he deviates from Islam and he could help him return to the fold. But instead of inviting him, he used the mid-morning Malay tabloid, Harian Metro, in the New Straits Times stable to reply. But his intent was incendiary, not resolution. But Raja Petra has now come with a serious of questions on his website that he wants Dr Yusof to answer in Harian Metro before he would meet him.

    But what Raja Petra complains of is true. Non-Malays living in the vicinity of mosques in Kuala Lumpur hear this call to arms against the non-Muslims through high-pitches megaphones often enough to be dismissed as untrue. I suspect Dr Yusof is annoyed a Muslim has spilled the beans; if a non-Muslim had done so, he could be ignored.
    -MggPillai [2004-12-17]

  227. king dong Says:

    What is with these Chinamen who convert to Islam in Malaysia?!
    One of the most well-known Muslim missionaries (pendakwah) is Ann Wan Seng, who’s a prolific speaker in Malay — like you-know-who.

    “Mereka sembah Tua Pek Kong, mereka sembah Pau Kong, mereka sembah Datuk Kong dan barangkali mereka juga sembah King Kong (audience snickers).”
    http://www.malaysia-today.net/mtcolumns/from-around-the-blogs/35027-buddhism-is-king-kong-religion-says-convert-ustaz#comments

    That is called being in pig sty

  228. Scott Thong Says:

    I’d really like to know what k0k thinks of this!

  229. pipa Says:

    The Earth Is Flat and Much Larger than the Sun

    What I say is based on Koranic science. He bases his arguments on the kind of science that I reject categorically — the modern science that they teach in schools. This science is a heretic innovation that has no confirmation in the Koran. No verse in the Koran indicates that the Earth is round or that it rotates. Anything that has no indication in the Koran is false.

  230. Zack T Says:

    Thanks, pipa.. One very fine example of a very honest and sincere man………. who is honestly and sincerely dead wrong…

    And imagine that..
    “No verse in the Koran indicates that the Earth is round or that it rotates.” ~Fadhel Al-Sa’d, Iraqi Researcher on Astronomy

    I wonder why the Koran, the word of Allah spoken to and *supposedly* recorded by his prophet Muhammad, doesn’t make any clear statement about that so that no one would be misguided like our friend in the video here.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~

    On a separate note….
    I have been reminded (as I was scanning through the earlier comments) to bring back a (i think) very important question that is still left unanswered… especially by our Muslim friends…

    Why did the Jews try to kill Isa according to the Islamic understanding?” ~Scott Thong

    I have yet to see any Muslim commentor making even a mention about this.
    Please enlighten us Muhammad’s explanation of what “actually” happened.

  231. loop Says:

    “Why did the Jews try to kill Isa according to the Islamic understanding?” ~Scott Thong

    The Quran reveals Jesus’ life was full of miracles from the moment of his birth until the day he was raised to God’s presence, all of which he performed by the will of God:

    God said: “Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessing to you and to your mother when I reinforced you with the Purest Spirit so that you could speak to people in the cradle and when you were fully grown; and when I taught you the Book and Wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel.” (Qur’an, 5:110)

    As a Messenger to the Children of Israel, saying: “I have brought you a Sign from your Lord. I will create the shape of a bird out of clay for you and then breathe into it, and it will be a bird by God’s permission. I will heal the blind and the leper, and bring the dead to life, by God’s permission. I will tell you what you eat and what you store up in your homes. There is a Sign for you in that if you are believers.” (Qur’an, 3:49)

    These unbelievers simply said that he was no more than a magician:

    And when Jesus son of Mary said: “O Children of Israel, I am the Messenger of God to you, confirming the Torah that came before me and giving you the good news of a Messenger after me, whose name is Ahmad.” When he brought them the Clear Signs, they said: “This is downright magic.” (Qur’an, 61:6)

    The Qur’an reveals that Jesus did not come to wipe out Judaism, but to affirm and purify religion of the myths that had crept in over the centuries and to return it to its original purity. God also sent him to resolve the issues disputed over by the various Jewish sects, which we examined earlier in the book. The Qur’an says:

    [Jesus said:] “I come confirming the Torah I find already here, and to make lawful for you some of what was previously forbidden to you. I have brought you a Sign from your Lord. So have fear [and awe] of God and obey me.” (Qur’an, 3:50)

    And when Jesus came with the Clear Signs, he said: “I have come to you with Wisdom and to clarify for you some of the things about which you have differed. Therefore, heed God and obey me.” (Qur’an, 43:63)

    Jesus confirmed the matters of faith mentioned in the Torah and also brought the Gospel, God’s last revelation to humanity, to guide and advise his people.

    Refer (Qur’an, 5:46-47)

    Very few people answered Jesus’ call at the beginning, for his call sought to abolish the privileges of the priestly class, which profited from the myths and traditions that had been established many years ago, and also those members of the ruling class who did not recognize God’s sovereignty. The pressure they applied, when combined with their threats, scared the common people and prevented them from approaching Jesus. When Jesus’ teachings began to spread and the number of his followers increased, the number of his opponents increased accordingly. More cowardly traps were prepared and more plans were made to discredit and defeat him. Such plots were nothing new, for all Prophets encountered such hostility. The Qur’an reveals the unbelievers’ maliciousness toward the Messengers in the following terms:

    Why then, whenever a Messenger came to you with something your lower selves did not desire, did you grow arrogant and deny some of them and murder others? (Qur’an, 2:87)

    Society began to be divided by those who believed in Jesus and those who denied him, and the difference between the two groups became more and more apparent. On the one side was God’s Messenger, who was teaching the true religion and calling people to believe in the one and only God, and on the other side was a group of people who had decided not to believe in him regardless of his miracles or proofs, even if they saw them with their own eyes. His enemies revealed themselves clearly. Probably there were people who were with him and heard him, but who later denied him. God reveals such a situation in the following verse: “The various factions among them differed…” (Qur’an, 43:65)

    For this reason, Jesus chose his disciples from those believers whom he could really trust. The Qur’an reveals:

    When Jesus sensed unbelief on their part, he asked: “Who will be my helpers for [the cause of] God?” The disciples said: “We are God’s helpers. We believe in God. Bear witness that we are Muslims.” (Qur’an, 3:52)

    The Qur’an reveals that the unbelievers devised a plot to take Jesus’ life. According to some sources, a group of bigoted priests bribed Judas Iscariot, one of the disciples, to betray him, after which they would arrest Jesus and hand him over to the Romans. According to the same sources, the priests did not have the power to sentence someone to death and so had to make another plan to agitate the Roman regime. Thus, they portrayed Jesus as being hostile to the Roman leadership, for the Romans were highly sensitive and ruthless when confronted with dissidents. But these priests failed, for the Qur’an relates:

    They [unbelievers] planned and God planned. But God is the best of planners. (Qur’an, 3:54)

    As the verses reveal, they plotted and moved to kill Jesus. However, their plot failed and they ended up killing a look-alike. During this event, God raised Jesus up to His presence:

    And [on account of] their saying: “We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Messenger of God.” They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. (Qur’an, 4:157)

  232. Zack T Says:

    Very nice, and very long answer, loop.

    Though, I think it’s rather vague (due to its length), think you can answer the question more straight-forwardly? So we don’t misunderstand your actual answer…

    Why did the Jews decide to kill Isa according to the Islamic understanding?

  233. Simon Thong Says:

    Of course his answers are long..a roundabout way (we say, beating around the bush) that lives up to his name, loop.

    Loop, the Jesus you describe is not the Jesus of the New Testament. The NT Jesus said he would be killed and would rise up in 3 days, which was what happened. Your Jesus did not die because he could not die and dared not die. A conman, a man, a figment of the imagination, a creation of someone’s convoluted mind.

    The Jesus of the NT is straightforward: he said he would be killed, and it happened. Trustworthy. He could die. He dared to die in an excruciating way, for it was not a quick and easy death.

  234. klokwork Says:

    “The myth of an original orthodoxy from which later challengers fall away as heretics is almost always the retrospective assertion of a politically dominant group whose aim is to establish their supremacy by appeal to divine sanction.”

    This applies to the Arab Conquest, says al-Rawandi, because for some 200 years the Arab conquerors were a minority amongst a non-Moslem majority. For al-Rawandi, Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab imperialism. The Conquest is the reason and explanation for Islam, not the other way around.

    While there may well have been a historical individual named Ubu’l Kassim who was later entitled Mohammed (“The Praised One”), who raised followers and participated in the initiation of the Arab Conquest, he likely came from northeast Arabia in what is now southern Jordan. The deity that Ubu’l Kassim chose to follow was Allah, a contraction of al-Lah, the ancient Arab God of the Moon [note: which is why the symbol of Islam to this day is the crescent moon]. Ubu’l Kassim died, however, some years before the Arab Conquest was fully under way (the traditional date is 632). Al-Rawandi summarizes what then happened:

    Once the Arabs had acquired an empire, a coherent religion was required in order to hold that empire together and legitimize their rule. In a process that involved a massive backreading of history, and in conformity to the available Jewish and Christian models, this meant they needed a revelation and a revealer – a Prophet – whose life could serve at once as a model for moral conduct and as a framework for the appearance of the revelation. Hence (Ubu’l Kassim was selected to be the Prophet), the Koran, the Hadith (Sayings of the Prophet), and the Sira were contrived and conjoined over a period of a couple of centuries. Topographically, after a century or so of Judaeo-Moslem monotheism centered on Jerusalem, in order to make Islam distinctively Arab … an inner Arabian biography of Mecca, Medina, the Quraysh, the Prophet and his Hegira (flight from Mecca to Medina alleged in 622, Year One in the Islamic calendar) was created as a purely literary artifact. An artifact, moreover, based not on faithful memories of real events, but on the fertile imaginations of Arab storytellers elaborating from allusive references in Koranic texts, the canonical text of the Koran not being fixed for nearly two centuries.

  235. klokwork Says:

    Alawites, who constitute much of the officer corps and control the government of Syria, make up only 12% of the population of that country. Ominously, they are regarded by true-blue Sunni Arabs (who make up 70% of the population of Syria) as not-real-Muslims, in something like the way that Ahmadis (Qadianis) in Pakistan are regarded. This bodes ill for their future, should their grip ever slip. And it could slip.

    The Syrian regime has chosen to rely for its survival on an alliance with Shi’a Iran. It was Iranian muftis who issued a ruling a few years ago declaring that the Alawites were, indeed, Muslim. The Sunni Muslims, by contrast, wiped out an entire graduating class of Alawites from the Syrian military academy. They also threatened the power of Hafez al-Assad until finally he levelled Hama, with the Alawite-led army instructed to shoot down anyone who shouted “Allahu Akbar.”

    When “real” Muslims massacred 82 Alawite miltary cadets at a graduation ceremony, as part of an anti-regime, anti-Alawite campaign, Hafez al-Assad surrounded Hama, an Ikhwan center, and told his troops to kill anyone who moved. Twenty thousand were killed. And in Haleb, or Aleppo, the second city of Syria, corpses were dragged through the streets, and everyone had to come out — Armenians, Sunni Muslims, everyone — from their houses, or stand on their balconies, and applaud the spectacle.

  236. klokwork Says:

    Al-Assad has recently ordered that his picture no longer be omnipresent in every window or on every wall in the country. And for a regime such as his that is an unusual and possibly good sign. But will it be enough to cause the Sunni Muslims, who have been alarmed by the stories (some no doubt exaggerated) of Shi’a missionaries making great inroads among Sunni Muslims in Syria, to be less alarmed? Will the Syrian alliance with Iran make the Sunnis less nervous? And what if Mr. Big, Saudi Arabia, together with other Gulf Arab states, decides to really turn on the Alawites, and blare propaganda against them as…Infidels?

  237. klokwork Says:

    In America, of course, we had all been sufficiently subject to ARAMCO propaganda (performed as a “public service” by the big oil companies, as part of their propaganda payoff to the Saudis for allowing them to find, produce, and then pay exorbitantly for the oil that happens to lie under the malevolent sands of “Saudi” Arabia), to believe that there is something called “the Arab world” and in this “Arab world” there are no Copts, no Armenians, no Assyrians, no Chaldeans, no Turkmen, no Mandeans, no Maronites, and of course no Berbers, no Jews (no, there never were any Jews in North Africa or the Middle East — they all came to Israel, you see, from Europe), for everyone in the Arab world was an “Arab.”

    The discovery or re-discovery of a Berber identity (and how many of those North African “Arabs” should begin to realize that they are Berbers?) is or could be an important weapon in unsettling the world of Islam, and perhaps causing the Maghreb to see itself, as it should not as “Arab” but as the victim of Arab imperialism.

    For what is Islam if not a vehicle of Arab imperialism, and what are the Berbers, if not the victims of that Arab imperialism, an imperialism far more potent and long-lasting than the European kind, for it attempts to efface the historic identity of whole peoples?

    Ideally, one would wish this Total System, that has held so many hundreds of millions in thrall, and thwarted over so many centuries so much human potential (think of the art, think of the science, that might have resulted in the absence of the dead hand of Islam on so many people, prevented from so many forms of artistic expression, so many avenues for free and skeptical inquiry that are necessary for the enterprise of science, so much dull fanaticism, so much boredom, so much violence, in posse and in esse) will be seen, by Berbers, by Kurds, by people in the subcontinent (why should Muslims in India not “rediscover” their own history, their Hindu, or Buddhist, or other non-Muslim roots?), by those in Malaysia and the East Indies, with its rich pre-Islamic, Hindu and Buddhist past?

    The evidence is there. What sustained the Muslims for centuries, at a low level, was simply the accumulated intellectual capital of those peoples whom they conquered, and slowly leached of life, and of property as well. Now North Africa and the Middle East are virtually without the non-Muslims who once provided a certain supply of Jizyah, and what sustains the Arabs and Muslims are two things, and only two things; the new disguised Jizyah of Western foreign aid (which should be ended, and used to meet the new expenses of monitoring Muslim populations in the West), and the manna of oil wealth, entirely undeserved, and the only conceivable way that the Arabs and Muslims might acquire great wealth – through an accident of geology. Are the peoples of black Africa misled into thinking that they, too, somehow share in that wealth?

    Islam, as it spreads, will merely guarantee that the countries and peoples will be forced to endure the political, economic, social, moral, and intellectual failures of Muslim states and societies – failures whose source can be found in Islam itself.

  238. Scott Thong Says:

    loop was not really talking about Jesus, but about Isa. Just as Solomon was wise while Sulaiman spoke to ants and djinns, Moses lived long before Jesus but Musa was Isa’s uncle, YHWH wants to be known while Allah is unknowable.

    I maintain the different name usage as the Christian and Muslim versions are very different. To equate the two is akin to someone saying that Dr Mahathir was a former PM of Malaysia, has Indian and Malay lineage, and was a seven-foot tall albino who advocated the overthrow of Brazil’s government by Arctic penguins.

    By rights, we should always refer to the person I just described as Mad-hathir, to use the name Mahathir is to confuse the person I described with the legitimate former PM of Malaysia.

    (Note too that penguins are only found in the Southern hemisphere.)

  239. hutchrun Says:

    Dr Mad-hati-r came from Kerala where some of the most virulent fanatics have lived

    “The Moplahs are a band of fanatic Muslims who have descended from the Arabs who settled in the Malabar Coast in about the 8th or 9th century A.D and married mostly Indian wives. They had over the years acquired an unenviable notoriety for crimes perpetuated under the impulse of religious frenzy. They were responsible for 35 minor outbreaks during the British rule, the most terrible being the one that took place in August 1921.”
    http://www.indianetzone.com/3/mopla_revolt.htm

    If his father instead of running away, had been caught by the British and had his neck elongated at the end of a stout rope, Malays would have been spared the devious mind. I won`t be surprised if Osama is hiding out in Langkawi.

  240. loop Says:

    But Saul changed his name to Paul when he adopted Christianity was the same person , am I right Scott.300 years after the departure of Jesus the St Paul popped up with the Dochtrine of Trinity.

    Then Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the message again: “And your God is One God: there is no God but He” (The Qur’an, al-Bakarah(2):163)

    And the message is parallel to The Jesus pbuh compared to St Paul when Jesus said “…The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29)

    And the Jesus message too parallel to Moses in the Biblical passage Known as the “Shema,” or the Jewish creed of faith: “Hear, O Israel The Lord our God is one Lord” (Deuteronomy 6:4)It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus ..and 600 years later after Muhammad pbuh.BUT not the St Paul with his ‘Jesciut’

    ‘In fact, we’ve raised these points before, but as usual loop either ignores, forgets or pretends never knew.’-Scott.

    I ignore you and forget it because I knew that St Paul is wrong and never parallel to these three monotheistic religions — Judaism, Christianity, and Islam– all purport to share one fundamental concept: belief in God as the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe

  241. lotto Says:

    “Then Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later…”

    ******** and ***man

  242. lotto Says:

    ….

  243. lotto Says:

    Mohd was not *******……stop believing in ***** prophets

  244. lotto Says:

    “The Mohammedan religion allows Mohamme-
    dans to kill all who are not of their religion. It is clearly stated in Koran,
    “Kill the infidels if they do not become Mohammedans”. They must be put to fire
    and sword. (II.335). Think of the little sects, born within a few hundred years
    out of fallible human brains, making this arrogant claim of knowledge of the
    whole of God’s infinite truth! Think of the arrogance of it! If it shows any-
    thing, it is this how vain human beings are. And it is no wonder that such
    claims have always failed, and , by the mercy of the Lord, are always destined
    to fail. In this line the Mohammedans were the best off; every step forward was
    made with the sward – the Koran in the one hand and the sward in the other:
    “Take the Koran, or you must die; there is no alternative!”. You know from
    history how phenomenal was their success; for six hundred years nothing could
    resist them, and then there came a time when they had to cry halt. So will it
    be with other religions if they follow the same methods.” (II:369-70)

    “Wave after wave of barbarian conquest has rolled over this devoted land
    of ours. “Allah Ho Akbar!” has rent the skies for hundreds of years, and no
    Hindu knew what moment would be his last. This is the most suffering and the
    most subjugated of all the historic lands in the world. Yet we will stand
    practically the same race, ready to face difficulties again and again if
    necessary; and not only so, of late there have been signs that we are not only
    strong, but ready to go out for the sign of life in expansion.” (III.369-70)

    “What is called the Mohammedan invasion, conquest or colonisation of India
    means only this that under the leadership of Mohammedan Turks, who were renega-
    des from Buddhism, those sections of the Hindu race who continued in the faith
    of their ancestors were repeatedly conquered by the other section of that very
    race, who also were renegades from Buddhism of the Vedic religion and served
    under the Turks, having been forcibly converted to Mohammedanism by thier
    superior strength. (VII:395)

    The Koran further says: The unbelievers among the people of the Book of
    Ahl-i-Kitab (i.e. Jews and Christians) and the pagans shall burn for ever in
    the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures (S98:6).

    Vivekananda on Islam

  245. loop Says:

    ‘Any historian will tell you, they’d rather go with Paul’s gospel, than Muhammad’s, to know more about the historical Jesus.’-Zack T

    They’d rather go with Paul’s than Muhammad’s because Gospels were produced which clearly reflected the conception of the practical needs of the community for which they were written. In them the traditional material was used, but there was no hesitation in altering it or making additions to it, or in leaving out what did not serve the writer’s purpose.”-Mr. C.G. Tucker Says.

    Mr. C.J. Cadoux has the following to say in his book “The life of Jesus” : “In the four Gospels, therefore, the main documents to which we must go if we are to fill-out at all that bare sketch which we can put together from other sources, we find material of widely differing quality as regards credibility. So far-reaching is the element of uncertainty that
    it is tempting to ‘down tools’ at once, and to declare the task hopeless. The historical inconsistencies and improbabilities in parts of the Gospels form some of the arguments advanced in favor of the Christ-myth theory. These are, however, entirely outweighed- as we have shown- by other considerations. Still the discrepancies and uncertainties that
    remain are serious- and consequently many moderns who have no doubt whatever of Jesus’ real existence, regard as hopeless any attempt to dissolve out of the historically true from the legendary or mythical matter which the Gospels contain, and to reconstruct the story of Jesus’ mission out of the more historical residue” .

  246. Zack T Says:

    Now you’re beginning to make yourself look real silly, loop.

    If you’re gonna be arguing against something, make sure you get your facts straight about it… at least the most basic and simplest ones!!

    What’s your latest error about Christianity?

    “300 years after the departure of Jesus the St Paul popped up with the Dochtrine of Trinity.” ~loop

    Saul/Paul did not come 300 years after Jesus’ departure. Plenty of Muslim apologists are doing their best to argue that Paul’s ‘Christianity’ was different from Jesus’ disciples’ ‘Christianity’ and that they even had some conflicts because of that (which they claim Paul won in the end, hmmm…)
    And here you are completely not getting your facts straight..

    Now… tell me… where in the whole Quran or hadith, is it ever mention that Jesus’ disciples and their ‘true teaching’ were going to lose to a ‘false teacher’ (Paul)?

    And with that in mind, how about you comment on this verse from the Quran?

    Sura 3:55 (Yusuf Ali):
    Behold Allah said: “O Jesus! …I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection…”

    So.. how is it that the disciples of Jesus lost their ‘true message’ to a false teacher, Paul (before the Day of Resurrection)?
    Only to require Allah to send in another prophet (600 years later) to set things straight again…?
    Why not immediately send one to straighten out Paul and avoid the birth of Christianity; the greatest shirk ‘cult’ in all of history for Muslims and Allah?

    Sidenote:

    Muslim translators have been rather ‘mischievous’ in their English translations… and a lot of various meanings have resulted from one person’s translation to the next (some more honest than others).

    Allow me to point everyone to this verse…
    Sura 3:55 (Muhammad Asad):
    Lo! God said: “O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ.

    Compare the different translation just of this verse alone… www islamawakened.com/Quran/3/55/default.htm

    How trustworthy is Allah? www answering-islam.org/authors/cornelius/makr.html

    Another point I just noticed… Allah here says that HE will judge all… and the Islamic teaching is that Jesus/Isa is the Judge to come back on the Day of Resurrection!
    Jesus as the coming Judge – Sura 43:61; Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657; Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 7023

  247. loop Says:

    ‘How many Qurans does the normal muslim have, if any? Note also that the bible is the most-shoplifted book in the world. Just google “most shoplifted book” and you’ll see what I mean’-Simon Thong

    Bible is the most shoplifted book in the world but sad to say ‘there was no hesitation in altering it or making additions to it, or in leaving out what did not serve the writer’s purpose!’

    But Muslim, Allah sent down the Qur’an as His last message to mankind and took it upon Himself to preserve it for all time from corruption or modification!!

  248. Simon Thong Says:

    Loop says

    Bible is the most shoplifted book in the world but sad to say ‘there was no hesitation in altering it or making additions to it, or in leaving out what did not serve the writer’s purpose!’

    but that is the opinion of Loop’s and those of his faith..a highly suspect opinion designed to boost his case and rubbish the Holy Book of christians.

  249. Simon Thong Says:

    Opinions are as many as the dust in the wind and the grass on a green padang but worthless when not supprted by research and fact.

  250. Simon Thong Says:

    loop says“300 years after the departure of Jesus the St Paul popped up with the Dochtrine of Trinity.”

    If Paul died in AD65 (make it AD70 if you like), how did he pop up 300 years after the departure of Jesus? Resurrected?🙂

    And you still haven’t answered my question: how many Qurans does the ordinary muslim have? Do you have one, loop? Do you read Arabic? If yes to both answers, good for you. Now, go read history. Substantiated history. Not make-it-up-as-you-like history, that is, your TWISTED version.

  251. rotfl Says:

    “Do you read Arabic?”

    That arabic of quran is classical arabic of aeons ago not used these days, and they are still trying to decide between prunes vs. virgins

  252. rotfl Says:

    “If Paul died in AD65 (make it AD70 if you like), how did he pop up 300 years after the departure of Jesus? Resurrected? :-)”

    It`s Da Loop in space-time warp, same like Mohd flying around on magic carpets….oops weird horses……oops snakes

  253. rotfl Says:

  254. rotfl Says:

    Bible is the most shoplifted book in the world – da loop

    Envy you can overcome….How To Get Free Korans
    http://1muslimnation.wordpress.com/2010/09/11/how-to-get-free-korans-from-moslems-to-burn-on-burn-koran-day/

  255. Scott Thong Says:

    Bible is the most shoplifted book in the world but sad to say ‘there was no hesitation in altering it or making additions to it, or in leaving out what did not serve the writer’s purpose!’

    But Muslim, Allah sent down the Qur’an as His last message to mankind and took it upon Himself to preserve it for all time from corruption or modification!! – loop

    loop doesn’t seem to realize the irony of this statement. If the Bible is so widely printed, how could any person or organization or conspiracy change every single copy? Including the shoplifted ones!

    Bible is the most widely printed book of all time, and there are around 20,000 ancient manuscripts with content from the New Testament so anyone can check one ‘version’ or ‘translation against others vs. All original copies of Quran burned by Caliph Uthman except his own preferred version from which every single modern copy of the Quran comes from.

    Forget the divine or supernatural aspect, just look at it from the secular, ordinary, common-sense aspects – which do you think would be easier to alter, add to, or leave out things? The thousands of copies of the New Testament spread across Asia, Africa and Europe in dozens of languages and kept by rival churches, or one single copy of the Quran that was in Caliph Uthman’s hands?

    Use your blain! Your blain!

  256. Scott Thong Says:

    Then Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the message again: “And your God is One God: there is no God but He” (The Qur’an, al-Bakarah(2):163)

    And the message is parallel to The Jesus pbuh compared to St Paul when Jesus said “…The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29) – loop

    Muslim polemicists often seem to repeat the same tactic when it comes to Christianity’s belief about God. They refuse to acknowledge, understand or accept the REAL Christian view that God is one, and instead make the FALSE claim that Chrisians believe in three gods.

    Yes, loop, I am very well aware that Jesus said Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Mark 12:29). That is exactly what Christians believe, not your nonsense idea about three gods.

    But see what else Jesus also did:

    On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. – Matthew 2:11

    A man with leprosy came and knelt before him and said, “Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.” – Matthew 8:2 (‘knelt’ is actually the same word translated ‘worship’; see NKJV version)

    Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” – Matthew 14:33

    Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. – Matthew 28:9

    When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. – Matthew 28:17

    Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. – Luke 24:52

    Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him – John 9:38

    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” – John 20:28

    Imagine that… The people fall to Jesus’ feet, worship Him and call Him God. How come Jesus did not rebuke them? Isn’t falling prostrate the way Muslims worship Allah too?

  257. Zack T Says:

    I also wanted to point out from one of the verses that Scott quoted… It’s a really subtle but wonderful verse in support of Christ’s divinity..

    Matthew 8:2-3 [NIV]
    A man with leprosy came and knelt before [Jesus] and said, “Lord, if YOU are WILLing, YOU CAN make me clean.”
    Jesus reached out His hand and touched the man. “I am WILLing,” He said. “Be clean!” Immediately he was cured of his leprosy.

    First of all, the leper himself said to Jesus, “If YOU WILL, YOU CAN heal me.” He didn’t say, “If God or Allah wills, He will heal me through you.”
    If Jesus did not accept being considered equal to God, then He would have rebuked this leper and most likely not heal him.

    But He didn’t and yet answered as such…. which brings us to His statement.

    I don’t see Jesus saying “God or Allah is willing”… or “Only if God or Allah wills”… but HE Himself is willing to heal the leper..

    Since it is well established that our current bible (both Old Testament and especially the New Testament) is over 98% similar and accurate with the 1st Century A.D. version of the bible…
    Then this passage was known before Paul came along with ‘his false teachings’.

  258. Scott Thong Says:

    many moderns who have no doubt whatever of Jesus’ real existence, regard as hopeless any attempt to dissolve out of the historically true from the legendary or mythical matter which the Gospels contain, – loop

    loop, do you realize how foolish it is to cite this as an argument against the accuracy of the Bible? This feller is basically saying that the Gospels cannot be 100% accurate due to the supernatural ‘God and heaven and miracles stuff’ inside.

    So what do you think he would have to say about the Quran and its claims of a prophet with a divine mission from Allah passed along through an angel?

  259. perps Says:

    “But what if scholars can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Koran was not dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammad during the 7th century? What if there was proof that the holy book was actually redacted by later writers drawing on a variety of extant Christian and Jewish sources?”

    Personally, I believe this is what exactly took place and that there was no divine revelations from Gabriel to Mohammad.
    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread327963/pg1

  260. perps Says:

    * “Modern Mohammedanism has its Mecca at Salt Lake… Clearly the Koran was Joseph Smith’s model, so closely followed as to exclude even the poor pretension of originality in his foul ‘revelations.’ ” (The Women of Mormonism, Frances E. Willard, 1882, Introduction, p. xvi)
    * “The student of Mormonism will be struck with the similarity of experience and claims of Joseph Smith and Mohammed.” (The Rocky Mountain Saints, T. B. H. Stenhouse 1873, p 2)
    * “even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed” Gal 1:8

    Mormons and Muslims share much in their religion!
    Similarities between Joseph Smith and Muhammad
    http://www.bible.ca/islam/islamic-mormonism-similarities.htm

  261. Zack T Says:

    A very very interesting read… and indeed, it is as I have come across too.

    Mormons and Muslims share much in their religion!
    Similarities between Joseph Smith and Muhammad
    http://www.bible.ca/islam/islamic-mormonism-similarities.htm

  262. perps Says:

    hahahahaha Mohd reincarnated as Joseph Smith……..thas why 9/11 had to happen

  263. Scott Thong Says:

    If Paul died in AD65 (make it AD70 if you like), how did he pop up 300 years after the departure of Jesus? Resurrected? – Simon Thong

    loop is confused with the Council of Nicea.

  264. perps Says:

    3. (63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day [3], as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day.
    http://www.theistic-evolution.com/josephus.html

  265. Zack T Says:

    loop is confused with the Council of Nicea.

    I figured he was… though I wasn’t certain if there was a ‘St. Paul’ in that council.. I recall Ron making mention of him.. I think.

  266. perps Says:

    “loop is confused with the Council of Nicea”

    That`s a con-fusing pro.

  267. Scott Thong Says:

    My personal favourite still:

    https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/the-christian-trinity-in-the-old-testament-god-is-i-us-and-he/

  268. Zack T Says:

    I will assume positively that loop has just not been able to come on to comment so far, due to personal matters.
    And will continue to wait patiently til he does.

    Just a recap of my questions that I stil want loop (or Nasaei, if he chooses to help out his ‘brother’) to answer..

    1 – Why did the Jews decide to kill Isa according to the Islamic understanding?
    (A more straight forward answer, instead of a long-winded one that ends up not answering the question; at least not clearly)

    2 – Where in the whole Quran or hadith, is it ever mention that Jesus’ disciples and their ‘true teaching’ were going to lose to a ‘false teacher’ (Paul)?

    3 – Sura 3:55 (Yusuf Ali):
    Behold Allah said: “O Jesus! …I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection…

    So.. how is it that the disciples of Jesus lost their ‘true message’ to a false teacher, Paul (before the Day of Resurrection)?
    Only to require Allah to send in another prophet (600 years later) to set things straight again…?
    Why not immediately send one to straighten out Paul and avoid the birth of Christianity; the greatest shirk ‘cult’ in all of history for Muslims and Allah?

    And another question that loop hasn’t address either, and it was asked by his fellow Muslim..

    Nasaei, “appreciate if Loop could verify or explain further, how or what DSS “confirmed” Quran as he said.”

    I definitely want to hear this answer…

    How is the Quran ‘confirmed’ by the Dead Sea Scroll that:
    1 – has almost a complete copy of practically every book of the Old Testament… including Isaiah..
    2 – thus, allowed us to verify the accuracy and preservation of our current bible since before the A.D. period even began…
    3 – which meant that Jews (and Christians later) never corrupted/manipulated/changed the bible…
    4 – and these are the scriptures that Jesus Himself (when He came onto the scene) quoted from and affirmed to be true and valid (and said He fulfilled)..
    5 – and Muhammad attested in his own words (in the Quran and hadiths) and ‘preaching’ that, as a prophet, Jesus quoted from the true and reliable scriptures that had been revealed to the prophets of the past that the Jews had in their possessions?

    Did loop mean that the DSS confirmed the truth that is in the Quran?? Or did he mean the DSS confirmed the falsehood of the Quran?

    Alas, we’ll have to wait to see if loop decides to show back up. Maybe Nasaei wants to pick up the baton, if loop doesn’t. =P

  269. Latma Says:

    RIYADH, Saudi Arabia – Saudi police raided a secret Catholic mass in Riyadh last week and arrested a dozen Filipinos and a Catholic priest, charging them with prosyletising, a local daily reported on Wednesday.
    http://globalnation.inquirer.net/news/breakingnews/view/20101006-296336/Saudis-arrest-Filipino-Catholics-at-massreport

    Imagine the uproar if this happened to a Muslim congregation anywhere.

  270. ropie Says:

    The website The Religion of Peace tracks global Islamic terrorism. According to its detailed list for 2009, there were Islamist terror attacks in 38 countries around the world: Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belgium, Canada, Chechnya, China, Dagestan, Egypt, Ethiopia, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Ingushetia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Lebanon, Mali, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Palestinian Authority, Philippines, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Thailand, Turkey, UK, USA, Uzbekistan and Yemen.

    These attacks totaled 9,157 deaths and 18,546 injured.
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2009.htm

  271. Raymond Says:

    The difference is even clear to a first-time reader. There is a Meccan Koran and a Medinan Koran. The relative sizes of the two Korans are: Meccan Koran is about 64% of the total Koran; the Medinan Koran is 36% of the total.
    Islam devotes a great amount of energy to the kafir. Not only is the majority (64%) of the Koran devoted to the kafir, but also nearly all of the Sira (81%) deals with Mohammed’s struggle with them. The Hadith (Traditions) devotes 32% of the text to kafirs.

  272. Simon Thong Says:

    If so much is devoted to the kafir, what does that say about the popularity of the religion.

    Almost the entire NT is devoted to the believer.

  273. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Robert M. Price. This man, (an atheist?) argues there NEVER was a historical Jesus ever existed in his article: “The Historical Jesus:Five Views”

    You see, how corrupt an atheist mind is. Since there is no physical evidence ever found – no tomb, no body or skeleton, no DNA, no nothing except the writing of Paul, Peter, Josephus, Tacitus or Lucian etc. immortalize by the later men..so, to Robert, there was Jesus actually never existed. It is exactly a MYTH.

    I think Adam physical evidence was never found as well. So we men, (his) descendants) do not exist, and Adam was a myth??

  274. Zack T Says:

    Wonder why Nasaei suddenly brought up the topic of Atheism…

  275. Simon Thong Says:

    diversionary tactics…

  276. loop Says:

    will assume positively that loop has just not been able to come on to comment so far, due to personal matters.
    And will continue to wait patiently til he does.
    1 – Why did the Jews decide to kill Isa according to the Islamic understanding?
    (A more straight forward answer, instead of a long-winded one that ends up not answering the question; at least not clearly)
    2 –

    Thank Zack T for patiently waiting for me. I must confess you are a good follower because James 5:7-12 attempts to disarm some impatient Christians who are growing weary of this world.
    Regarding
    1. why did the Jews decide to kill Isa.. you want it straight I cleared it -they were anti him and the message.
    2. Where in the whole Quran or hadith, is it ever mention that Jesus’ disciples and their ‘true teaching’ were going to lose to a ‘false teacher’ (Paul)?
    Paul was just like Ayah Pin and others, will never mentioned in Quran or Hadith or Bible.As a false teacher,he was worse than Ayah Pin I think. No hard feeling Zack T , the comment is not as bad as yours on the Muslimah‘s dressing you made.I found these points concerning St Paul and his ‘salvation’ and his heavenly ‘vision’:
    1) The very first Christians were Unitarians and not “Trinitarians.” The church in the
    current day and age readily admits this in some of it’s most respected references.
    2) The apostles had never heard of a “trinity” and abided strictly by a continuation of
    the law of Moses which Jesus himself had also abided by during his lifetime and
    continued to do so until the crucifixion.
    3) St. Paul persecuted the followers of Jesus (pbuh) and even presided over the death of
    many Christians such as Stephen and Paul’s own teacher Gamaliel.
    4) Suddenly, St. Paul claimed that he was singled out by Jesus’ ghost to receive a divine
    revelation which was deprived the apostles. He then considered himself more
    knowledgeable than the apostles and considered them to be “hypocrites” and even
    quite lazy ones at that.
    5) Even such fundamental verses as those describing Paul’s “salvation” and his
    heavenly “vision” contain very serious discrepancies and even a sworn affidavit by
    Paul himself that he was guilty of fabrication.
    6) St. Paul was responsible for changing almost every single aspect of the religion of
    Jesus (pbuh) imaginable. He began by relaxing specific laws of the religion of Jesus
    but in the end discarded them all. He is the author of the majority of the books of the
    New Testament available today.
    7) Paul’s church later went on to persecute and kill any and all Christians who did not
    adopt their views.
    8) Paul’s church was responsible for concocting the “trinity” over three hundred years
    after the departure of Jesus (pbuh). They then went about inserting “inspired” verses
    into the Bible to validate their views. Christian scholars tell us that these “inspired”
    additions and “corrections” were continuing at least until the fifteenth century.
    9) His church chose four Gospels which they themselves approved of and then burned
    over three hundred other “unacceptable” Gospels. Some of which were written by
    the apostles themselves.

  277. Simon Thong Says:

    loop, I can only say this: what a distortion of the earliest history of the cburch!

  278. Scott Thong Says:

    1) The very first Christians were Unitarians and not “Trinitarians.” The church in the
    current day and age readily admits this in some of it’s most respected references.

    – loop

    As I often say: Citations please.

    Against my pre-early Christian, Old Testament example:

    “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. – Zechariah 12:10

    There you have it, centuries before Jesus’ time on Earth, God already says that the one who is pierced (crucified) is ‘him’ but also ‘me’.

    And as Zack and I have demonstrated, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Old Testament has not been changed from 300 B.C. up till now.

    3) St. Paul persecuted the followers of Jesus (pbuh) and even presided over the death of
    many Christians such as Stephen and Paul’s own teacher Gamaliel.
    4) Suddenly, St. Paul claimed that he was singled out by Jesus’ ghost to receive a divine
    revelation which was deprived the apostles. He then considered himself more
    knowledgeable than the apostles and considered them to be “hypocrites” and even
    quite lazy ones at that.

    Okay, this would be a good conspiracy theory for a novel or action thriller film… Let’s say Saul realized that killing Christians a few at a time was too slow. To defeat the movement, he would become one of them and lead them astray from the true teachings of Jesus!

    However, this flies in the face of what Saul’s actual motivation was for killing Christians – he was trying to defend and uphold the purity of Judaism. Changing Christianity into a new version doesn’t make Judaism any stronger, since whether Unitarian or Trinitarian, a new and popular religion is competing with it. So this theory fails.

    5) Even such fundamental verses as those describing Paul’s “salvation” and his
    heavenly “vision” contain very serious discrepancies and even a sworn affidavit by
    Paul himself that he was guilty of fabrication.

    Citations please. This should be interesting as it is supposedly from the New Testament itself.

    7) Paul’s church later went on to persecute and kill any and all Christians who did not
    adopt their views.

    Citations please.

    Maybe you mean the Roman Catholic Church?

    Or maybe you are confusing it with the Sunni-Shia split over who should succeed Mohammad, and the ensuing wars.

    8 ) Paul’s church was responsible for concocting the “trinity” over three hundred years
    after the departure of Jesus (pbuh). They then went about inserting “inspired” verses
    into the Bible to validate their views. Christian scholars tell us that these “inspired”
    additions and “corrections” were continuing at least until the fifteenth century.

    Citations please.

    And what are you doing? On the one hand you say how the Gospel of Barnabas and other Apocrypha are the ‘real’ story of Jesus, but now you come and say that Paul’s church has been changing the Bible up to the 15th-Century. Don’t you realize that it is those very Apocrypha and fraudulent Gospels which are rejected by Protestants for being obviously fake? Make up your mind.

    9) His church chose four Gospels which they themselves approved of and then burned
    over three hundred other “unacceptable” Gospels. Some of which were written by
    the apostles themselves.

    Citations please.

    I think you have St Paul mixed up with Caliph Uthman here ha ha ha!

    Conspiracy theories always sound very convincing in isolation, just like the Bush-did-9/11 ones circulating today, But they always become much less impressive when compared against a counter-argument.

    It’s just like how Ahmed Deedat seemd so convincing when he claimed that the Bible clearly says all the disciples abandoned Jesus. Then Josh McDowell pointed out that one verse later, the Bible says that the disciples quietly followed Jesus, and suddenly Deedat’s claim looked either foolish or dishonest.

  279. Zack T Says:

    loop,

    Thank Zack T for patiently waiting for me. I must confess you are a good follower because James 5:7-12 attempts to disarm some impatient Christians who are growing weary of this world.

    I’m happy to see you able to quote the bible properly this time. However, that passage was talking about being patient in the face of suffering and not grumble against our brothers (as in amongst our Christian brothers/sisters; this passage was addressed to such)

    So I’m not too sure how this passage applies to what you’re talking about ‘impatient Christians who are growing weary of this world’.

    Now.. onto your response then. Thank you for your replies.

    1. why did the Jews decide to kill Isa.. you want it straight I cleared it -they were anti him and the message.

    Then my question is… what was Isa’s message that the Jews were against?

    Paul was just like Ayah Pin and others, will never mentioned in Quran or Hadith or Bible.As a false teacher,he was worse than Ayah Pin I think.

    It’s interesting that the Quran “never mentions” the coming of false teachers/prophets.. How will you know who’s false and who isn’t?

    On the other hand, the bible has plenty of such warnings and very clear criteria for us Christians to identify a false teacher/prophet/gospel.

    “But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak … that prophet shall die.” ~GOD (Deuteronomy18:20)

    “I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.” ~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

    [Surah 22:52] We did not send before you any messenger, nor a prophet, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. GOD then nullifies what the devil has done. GOD perfects His revelations. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.*
    [Surah 22:53] He thus sets up the devil’s scheme as a test for those who harbor doubts in their hearts, and those whose hearts are hardened. The wicked must remain with the opposition.

    Footnote given – *22:52 Throughout this worldly test, Satan is allowed to present his point of view (we are born with a representative of Satan in our bodies).

    From http://www.submission.org/suras/sura22.html

    According to Deuteronomy (from the Torah that Muslims are supposed to believe), a prophet that speaks falsely what did not come from God is to be killed.
    According to the Quran (which says to believe in the Torah), the devil is able to interfere with a prophet/messenger’s message, but later on Allah will correct it.

    Looks like a contradiction of teachings here. And since the Quran comes later, then it is with the quran the burden to explain itself why it contradicted the previous revelation.
    The Torah is very clear with what it wrote and the Quran contradicted it, proving it is not from the God of the Torah.

    More on Deuteronomy Deductions –
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/deuteronomy_deductions.htm

  280. Zack T Says:

    1) The very first Christians were Unitarians and not “Trinitarians.” The church in the current day and age readily admits this in some of it’s most respected references.

    First of all, I wouldn’t used as supporting reference “the church in the current day and age” because there’re plenty of false churches in the “current day and age”; e.g. Church of Scientology.

    Would you agree if, to make a point about Islam and its terrorism, I had said, “the mosque in the current day and age readily proclaims the Quran teaches followers to fight jihad and kill unbelievers and especially Jews”?
    (What’s more… my statement would be more truthful compared to yours.)

    But modern interpretation or beliefs doesn’t matter. What does the historical manuscripts and historical studies reveal?

    Let’s see from the Torah…
    In Genesis 18, we see Abraham encountering three visitors, which turns out, one of them was YHWH Himself, and the other two were angels, which later on went to rescue Lot from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
    After the three visitors ate with Abraham, the two angels left for Sodom, but YHWH stayed back with Abraham… and this was where Abraham pleaded for Sodom. But one statement made by Abraham is particularly interesting…

    Gen 18:25, “Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

    Who’s the Judge of all the earth??
    Both the bible and the Quran claim Jesus is that Judge at the Day of Judgment:
    John 5:22, [Jesus says] “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son…”
    Quran – Isa the coming Judge: Sura 43:61; Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657; Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 7023

    After Abraham’s plead for Sodom, YHWH left him (Genesis 18:33)… Where did He go?
    Genesis 19:24 tells us… “Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.”

    What? The LORD rained etc from the LORD out of the heavens??
    This implies two separate persons.. how so?

    does this statement make sense?
    “The boy threw a ball from the boy out of the house.”
    This isn’t a statement about only one boy.

    So we have one clear evidence of the Son being known to the people of the Old Testament..
    Including this prophecy by Daniel;
    Daniel 7:13-14, “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”

    Here’s a vision of someone that looks like a man, that is given the authority and all people and nations will worship him. And this is the prophecy that Jesus referred to, when questioned by the High Priest;

    Matthew 26:63-64
    The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
    Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

    And the subsequent verses reveal to us the priests understood Jesus to mean exactly what He mean and sentenced Him to death for blasphemy (NOT only because they were anti-Jesus).

  281. Zack T Says:

    2) The apostles had never heard of a “trinity” and abided strictly by a continuation of the law of Moses which Jesus himself had also abided by during his lifetime and continued to do so until the crucifixion.

    For obviously reasons, of course the apostles never heard of ‘trinity’, because this is a word that only created in our modern time; much the same that Muhammad and his followers never heard of the word ‘Tawhid’ which is not found in the whole Arab Quran.
    But did they believe in the teaching of the Trinity?
    The Book of Acts shows us plenty of times where Peter and others proclaimed Jesus as the Son of God, equaling Him with the Father.

    And I have to question your next statement, that Jesus and His disciples “abided strictly to the continuation of the law of Moses”…

    Jesus nullified the command to avoid eating unclean food; i.e. pigs, non-fish, etc.
    Deuteronomy 14:7-8 (which mentions camel, btw; Muhammad permitted camel meat for food, S.22:36) VS Mark 7:15, [Jesus said,] “Nothing outside a man can make him ‘unclean’ by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him ‘unclean.'”

    Jesus continue to work during Sabbath (which is on Saturdays and for the whole day, not Fridays and only some hours) and also allowed his disciples to (and even calls Himself, ‘Lord of the Sabbath’) – Exodus 34:21 vs Luke 6:1-10

    Jesus nullified the stoning of adulterers – Leviticus 20:10 VS John 8:1-11
    (on the other hand, Muhammad continued stoning; Bukhari Vol 6, book 60, Num 79, Al-Muslim Book 17, Chapter 6; although the Quran prescribed not one, but two completely different punishments for adulterers, and made no mention of stoning; house arrest – S.4:15, 100 lashes – S.24:2; an Islamic tradition stated the Quran USED to have a verse on stoning, but alas, a goat ate the only paper that recorded it… wasn’t me who said that, Aisha, Muhammad’s fave wife said it; Sunan Ibne Majah, Volume 2, Page 39)

    3) St. Paul persecuted the followers of Jesus (pbuh) and even presided over the death of any Christians such as Stephen and Paul’s own teacher Gamaliel.

    Wouldn’t that make it even less likely for him to decide to apostate and convert, hm?

    4) Suddenly, St. Paul claimed that he was singled out by Jesus’ ghost to receive a divine revelation which was deprived the apostles. He then considered himself more knowledgeable than the apostles and considered them to be “hypocrites” and even quite lazy ones at that.

    Plese quote your references.

    5) Even such fundamental verses as those describing Paul’s “salvation” and his heavenly “vision” contain very serious discrepancies and even a sworn affidavit by Paul himself that he was guilty of fabrication.

    Please back your claim with citations and supporting verses from the bible. Then we’ll see how true if your statement/claim.

  282. Zack T Says:

    6) St. Paul was responsible for changing almost every single aspect of the religion of Jesus (pbuh) imaginable. He began by relaxing specific laws of the religion of Jesus but in the end discarded them all.

    As proven earlier, Jesus had already been ‘changing’ the laws long before Paul even came along. And Paul was living at the same time as the Jesus’s disciples. If his teachings were as radically different as you claim it to be, then we would have plenty more evidence of the dispute between Paul’s gospel and the disciples’s… but alas, no such evidences can be found.
    (And no, the Gnostic gospels are latecomers, and definitely doesn’t come from the time of the Apostles. You can research it yourself)

    7) Paul’s church later went on to persecute and kill any and all Christians who did not adopt their views.

    Please support with evidences and cite your sources.

    I can make just as equal a claim about Muhammad, and my statement would be more accurate and easier to prove, compared to yours.

    So, please, no random claims. Please state your evidences and cite your sources.

    8- Paul’s church was responsible for concocting the “trinity” over three hundred years after the departure of Jesus (pbuh). They then went about inserting “inspired” verses into the Bible to validate their views. Christian scholars tell us that these “inspired” additions and “corrections” were continuing at least until the fifteenth century.

    I noticed you dropped your accusation that “300 years after the departure of Jesus the St Paul popped up with the Doctrine of Trinity.”
    Now it’s “Paul’s Church”…

    Now.. please cite me sources and evidences that there was such things as ‘Paul’s church’ in the 1st Century; followers of Paul’s teaching or something similar that proves that Paul’s teachings were radically different from John, Matthew and the other of Jesus’s disciples.

    And also, how about some actual names and sources? What “Christian scholars”?
    I can just as equally say “Muslim scholars attests that Muhammad never wrote or recorded the Quran himself; contrary to popular belief”.. (and I can prove that from the hadith)

    9) His church chose four Gospels which they themselves approved of and then burned over three hundred other “unacceptable” Gospels. Some of which were written by the apostles themselves.

    Please, loop… how about some evidences and cite your sources on your so-called “over 300 ‘unacceptable’ Gospels’? ANd also your claim that ‘Paul’s church’ chose four out of many gospels?
    (Or are you once again referring to Council of nicea? Last I recall, that council was never labeled ‘Paul’s church’ by anyone)

    And Loop, you’re confusing the history of book burning with your own Islamic history… Caliph Uthman made one ‘version’ of the Arabic quran and burned every other copies.. provable from your Hadith.

    There has never been any burning done by the church in the 1st Century.. and none that I have heard of in the 2nd and 3rd Century.
    The only burning of books ever committed by a church, that I know of, was by the more modern Catholic churches/Vatican.

    And I just love to turn this back on you, loop.
    What did Allah promise He’ll do?

    Sura 3:55 (Yusuf Ali):
    Behold Allah said: “O Jesus! …I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection…

    If what you say is true, then Paul’s church was more superior than Jesus’s disciples….. BEFORE the Day of Resurrection.

    I am always amazed by how Muslims always indirectly believes Allah is uncapable of preserving and protecting His revelations.

    Thank God YHWH who is truthful and indeed true to His promises to preserve His revelation regarding Jesus Christ and what He has done for us.

  283. Scott Thong Says:

    Oo, nice point on Gen 18:25, Zack. Didn’t realize that before.

    Fixed your blockquote btw.

  284. Scott Thong Says:

    Now.. please cite me sources and evidences that there was such things as ‘Paul’s church’ in the 1st Century – Zack T

    Here is your citation:

    For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men? … What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. … So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God. – excerpts from 1st Corinthians 3

    Oops, kind of the opposite of what loop is claiming eh?

  285. loop Says:

    I can’t counter all the statements but just want to share that no matter hard you try,you can never hide the truth.Like the false teachers/prophets.. Long time ago already written..They approved it.

    The Gospel of Barnabas not only confirmed virtually everything the Qur’an had been saying for fourteen hundred years now, but also mentions Muhammad (pbuh) by name. It contains an eye and ear witness account of Jesus’ ministry by one of the foremost apostles of Jesus (Barnabas) and not a hearsay account from a “vision” by someone
    who never met Jesus (Paul).

    The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in the twentieth century and countless similarities of content and doctrine were observed between them and the Qur’an.They specifically mention that there will be not one but TWO messiahs. They also confirm the fact that the first messiah (Jesus, pbuh) will not be killed on the cross but will be saved by God.

    See Zack T, the true Messiah confirmed and clearly not mentioned your Paul The Saint at all.Really in the wrong hand of teacher, you .

  286. Zack T Says:

    Wow.. loop… you never cease to prove yourself unable to comprehend the arguments and the evidence and the scholarship that all run against you and your empty claims.

    So far, you’ve made claim after claim after claim… statements after statement after statements… opinions after opinions after opinions…
    but never one credible citation… nor one name out of any of the ‘scholars’ you claimed to say what you claimed… nor any evidence to support your claim (just more unsubstantiated statements)… nor any example of how any of the confirmed whatever you said it confirmed…

    While on the other hand, I’ve challenged you in every of your statement; both from the bible AND the Quran (along with the Hadith); on your bogus claims that this confirmed that (i.e. DSS, Gospel of Barnabas, etc); even logically turned your own claims/statements against you, showing you how your own statements reject your own Islamic beliefs.

    The Gospel of Barnabas not only confirmed virtually everything the Qur’an had been saying for fourteen hundred years now

    It matters not how much it confirms the Quran… the fact that there are a few points that is (not variant or misunderstood but) in complete conflict to the Quranic teaching makes it otherwise.
    e.g. Not Jesus but Muhammad is the Messiah (note, Jesus is not the messiah, let alone the first one); marry only one wife; Mary gave birth to Jesus with no birth pains; there’s nine heavens, not seven.

    If you want to accept the testimony of the Gospel of Barnabas as genuine and trustworthy.. then you have to accept the whole thing, not parts from here and there.
    In the court of law, no judge will accept parts of a witness’s testimony and reject some. It’s either the witness’s testimony is completely trustworthy or not at all.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in the twentieth century and countless similarities of content and doctrine were observed between them and the Qur’an.They specifically mention that there will be not one but TWO messiahs. They also confirm the fact that the first messiah (Jesus, pbuh) will not be killed on the cross but will be saved by God.

    THere may be similarities, but I assure you, you are dead wrong with your (yet another empty) claim.
    What sort of similarities?
    – Believe in one God? Well, I’m sure there were a number of other religions and cults that believe in one god of sorts. (e.g. Zeus used to the only Greek god worshipped; so was Horus/Ra of Egypt)
    – prostrate when praying to God? Well, Buddhism have that too… and Jews don’t only pray by prostrating, neither is there any ‘doctrine’ that says only prostrating is true praying.

    And you said Two Messiahs?? This is going to be a ball of laughs…
    I can understand the Jewish misconception of two Messiahs because of the huge contrast between the suffering servant and the triumphant king…

    but what I want to know is WHERE IN THE QURAN does it EVER mentions of more than one Messiah?

    .

    OK, Loop. Here’s a deal. Since you *don’t want* to reply on every statement countering yours, and since you like the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gospel of Barnabas in particular… how about we solely talk about these two?
    Can you now PLEASE bring up some actual evidence and citation and names for all of your unsubstantiated claims?

    Allow me to summarize my challenge to you, with regards to the two manuscripts:

    Gospel of Barnabas
    1 – Do you accept this ‘gospel’ as authentic and completely trustworthy and believe this is message from Allah to prove the Quran and disprove the bible?
    2 – If you accept the account of Gospel of Barnabas, why do you reject the accounts of the NT, which is a well-established and well-attested set of historical manuscripts of eyewitness accounts, that all testify to Jesus’s death and His subsequent resurrection?
    3 – Aside from your obvious bias to a book that came 600 years AFTER Jesus, why do you reject the thousands of manuscripts that attest to what the NT said? And what’s more, deny the accepted consensus of Christians and non-Christians historians that Jesus’ death is the most indisputable fact of history?

    Dead Sea Scrolls
    1 – Where in the QURAN (or Hadith) is there EVER mention of more than one Messiah?
    2 – How does the DSS confirm the fact that Jesus will not be killed and be saved by God?
    3 – In continuation to question 2, what is your comment on the verses in the Quran that says to make no distinction between the prophets (Quran 2:285, 2:136, 4:152, 3:84; http://muttaqun.com/mawlid.html)… which means that for Allah to particularly save Jesus is to make a distinction between Jesus and the other prophets.. when even Muhammad was not saved from being killed with poison by an enemy (Ibn Sa’d pages 251, 252; Tabari Vol 8, pg 123, 124)

    See Zack T, the true Messiah confirmed and clearly not mentioned your Paul The Saint at all.Really in the wrong hand of teacher, you .

    It’s funny how loop is implying that only when Jesus mentions someone by name then we can believe in that person…
    If that’s the case, then why doesn’t he join the Catholic church; who believe Jesus ordained Simon Peter as the first pope by saying “Peter is the rock upon which [Jesus] will build His church”?

    Ok.. here’s a challenge for you, loop. Quote me where Jesus ever mentions the names of Aisha, Uthman, Kadija, Omar, Sulaiman, Isa, Ishmael, Abbas, Zaid… and last of all, Muhammad.
    If Jesus never mentioned any of these, along with a whole range of other names from the Quran and Hadiths, why are you believing in them?
    But if you still believe them, then what’s the difference between them and Paul with respect to your silly statement (We believe in and follow our only Shepherd, Jesus Christ, no one else, silly loop; it’d be an equivalent for me to say you a follower of Zaid or Caliph Uthman, instead of Muhammad).

    I sure would love to see you respond to this.

  287. Scott Thong Says:

    It contains an eye and ear witness account of Jesus’ ministry by one of the foremost apostles of Jesus (Barnabas)

    Hahahaha!

    Like I said, Barnabas is just a nickname meaning ‘son of encouragement’. I’ll give you a hint, in Hebrew ‘bar’ means the same as Arabic ‘bin’.

    His real name is simply Joseph, and the first mention of him is all the way in Acts 4:

    Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet. – Acts 4:36-37

    So late? Comes from Cyprus? He may not even have ever met Jesus in person, let alone was ‘one of the foremost apostles of Jesus’. (None of Jesus’ 12 closest Apostles was called Joseph.)

    And guess what the second mention of Barnabas in the Bible is:

    But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. – Acts 9:27

    Hahaha! The Barnabas which loop thinks so highly of, is the same one who testifies for Saul/Paul which loop thinks so poorly of! If it wasn’t for Barnabas, Paul wouldn’t have been introduced to the original Apostles and turned Christians to his ‘false teaching’. So it’s Barnabas’ fault that Paul ‘started his own church’, yet loop thinks Barnabas is so great and trustworthy. Hahaha!

    Make up your mind!

    The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in the twentieth century and countless similarities of content and doctrine were observed between them and the Qur’an.They specifically mention that there will be not one but TWO messiahs.

    Doesn’t this contradict the Quran? As the Quran says Jesus is the Messiah.

    Meanwhile, the so-called Gospel of Barnabas has Jesus denying that He is the Messiah!

    So loop is promoting all of the following sources as true:

    1) Quran – 1 Messiah, Isa
    2) Gospel of Barnabas – 1 Messiah, not Jesus
    3) Dead Sea Scrolls – 2 Messiahs, one is Jesus (allegedly)

    Make up your mind!

  288. Zack T Says:

    So loop is promoting all of the following sources as true:

    1) Quran – 1 Messiah, Isa
    2) Gospel of Barnabas – 1 Messiah, not Jesus
    3) Dead Sea Scrolls – 2 Messiahs, one is Jesus (allegedly)

    Make up your mind! ~Scott Thong

    Excellent summary of loop’s argument.

    And great point about Barnabas. first mention of Barnabas is in Acts (not even during the time Jesus walked on earth) and the second mention of him was him introducing Paul to the Apostles.

    Indeed our God has a great sense of humor and indeed He has prepared us with much ammunition to burst any such baseless ‘hot air balloons’.

  289. gabra Says:

    I think Adam physical evidence was never found as well. So we men, (his) descendants) do not exist, and Adam was a myth?? = Nassaei Ahmad

    Found the bones of Mohd`s flying horse, snake yet?

  290. gabra Says:

    Difference of Medinan and Meccan Surahs in the Koran
    http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/essays/cot/t1w11meccasurahmedinian.htm

  291. gabra Says:

    Another very interesting change is that the only title given to Jesus (every prophet was given special titles) in the Koran is Messiah. No reason is given to this title but it only appears in the Medinan Surahs. “The most plausible explanation is that Muhammad was unaware of the title until he moved to Medina and, as his contacts with Christians and Jews increased, so he came to learn of the unique appellation given to Jesus and, being unaware of its meaning but seeing no reason to reject it, simply adopted it himself and included it in the quran QurŸan [Quran] without any further ado.”6 “It was very well known that the Christians worshipped al masih al-Masæø[Messiah]. This name is attested in Arabia before Mohammed’s time…”7

  292. Scott Thong Says:

    loop, let me give you a thought exercise.

    Say that an archaeologist digging in the sands of Saudi Arabia’s deserts found an ancient manuscript. The manuscript claism to be sayings and actions of Muhammad, i.e. a previously unknown collection of hadith.

    Inside, you read accounts of Muhammad teaching pagans about the truth that there is only one God. He is recorded as giving divinely-inspired advice about how to pray when held captive by enemies. Also, it mentions some of Muhammad’s closest companions by name, as well as some of his wives like Siti Aishah. Overall, the manuscript seems to be a genuine collection of hadith.

    Okay so far? Not much different from Sahih Bukhari, right?

    But looking closer… You find that it mentions that one winter, Muhammad had to fend off a raid by enemies during a blinding snowstorm. Elsewhere, two companions are said to have discussed whether corn or tomatoes are healthier for a man with stomachache. And later, a witness recalls how angels protected Muhammad from musket bullets(!). Finally, Muhammad is recorded as claiming to be Nabi, but denies baseless rumours that he is either prophetes or vates. What’s more, the only copy is written in French!

    Would you think that this ‘new hadith’ is trustworthy? When it talks about snow in the Middle East, American crops and gunpowder weapons used in the 7th Century, and being a prophet in Arabic but not in Greek or Latin?

    Or would you suspect it is actually a forgery written in France after the discovery of the Americas, during which time gunpowder was used in combat?

    That is one big reason why even secular, non-religious people consider the Gospel of Barnabas to be a fake! It talks about wine being kept in wooden casks ( not used in ancient Israel but was used in Europe past 300 A.D.), the very-important Jubilee being every 100 years (it’s 50 years for Jews but was 100 years for Roman Catholics), and Jesus being the Christ but not the Messiah (both mean the same thing, one is Greek and the other is Hebrew!).

    You know how some hadith are considered less trustworthy than others, for good reasons such as the person who is the witness? Well, apply that to the non-canonical Gospels and maybe you can finally accept why Christians don’t accept the Gospel of Thomas etc as genuine. It is a forgery written by a Muslim living in Europe in Medieval times – someone who had never been to the Middle East, nor researched history, not even bothered to study the Old Testament – for the purpose of fooling Christians with his not-too-clever lies. Shame on him.

    So if you believe that a hadith which features a snow-wading, corn-eating, bullet-proof Muhammad is genuine, then please inform me… Then maybe I will consider the Gospel of Barnabas to be truthful!

    PS. Since this is loop we’re talking about, I don’t actually expect him/her/it to properly read what I commented.

  293. Zack T Says:

    The fact that GOspel of Barnabas mentioned Muhammad by name puts it into question… and most likely… long after the 600AD period.

  294. Zack T Says:

    Seems our Muslim friends have abandoned this debate…. maybe.
    How disappointing. =/

  295. loop Says:

    Sorry Scott,take time to think after properly read your thought’s exercise . And of course not try to abandon this debate too..

    I appreciate the thought but I have my stability in my believe.My believe, it is clear if doubt we reject like that false hadith .Not try to abandon it too because truly the more I spend my time here the more I gain my stability.Thank you and yr remarkable blog.

    See Scott, talking about thought I tell you this is not a story for you to thought, this is real and about a decision that have to make.I found that written in a magazine “Awake and Watchtower” dated September 8,1957, about a young man purchased a King James Version Bible thinking it was without error but came across with an article entitled ‘The Truth About the Bible’ on the magazine which said that “as early as 1720, an English authority estimated that there were at least 20 000 errors in the two editions of The New Testament commonly read by Protestants and Catholics Modern students say there are probably 50 000 errors.And that young man was so shocked and his faith was shaken.What is yr stand Scott for the errors?

    Of course, no citation because most of my references or resources was then being terminated by the admin I guess.

  296. loop Says:

    ‘Ok.. here’s a challenge for you, loop. Quote me where Jesus ever mentions the names of Aisha, Uthman, Kadija, Omar, Sulaiman, Isa, Ishmael, Abbas, Zaid… ‘

    Zack T, there’re not a problem at all with the Muslims. They were mentioned in the Quran.They followed Muhammad pbuh. The problem is St Paul, Jesus never mentioned him in the bible too!

  297. Zack T Says:

    Zack T, there’re not a problem at all with the Muslims. They were mentioned in the Quran.They followed Muhammad pbuh. The problem is St Paul, Jesus never mentioned him in the bible too! ~loop

    What? What kind of sad logic is that??

    Well, Saul/Paul is mentioned in the bible too… duh!

    Then tell me where Muhammad ever mentioned Caliph Uthman’s name.. or Zaid’s? duh!

  298. loop Says:

    ‘Then tell me where Muhammad ever mentioned Caliph Uthman’s name..’Zack T

    The expedition of Tabruk in sura At Taubah. One of the many Muslims who made a lot of contribution and donation when Muhammad pbuh ask to. Many more,donated his wealth almost in all events for the benefit of Islam.

    Tell me then where and when Jesus teached Paul about christianity? 300 years after Jesus’s departure?duh!

  299. Zack T Says:

    The expedition of Tabruk in sura At Taubah. One of the many Muslims who made a lot of contribution and donation when Muhammad pbuh ask to. Many more,donated his wealth almost in all events for the benefit of Islam. ~loop

    Please explain how this answers my question.

    Tell me then where and when Jesus teached Paul about christianity? 300 years after Jesus’s departure?duh! ~loop

    And you’re still saying Paul comes 300 years after “Jesus’ departure”.. My gosh… you can’t even get your facts straight, EVEN after we’ve told you the facts in our *long, i know* comments.

    Duh!

  300. loop Says:

    Please explain how this answers my question-Zack T

    Come on Zack T, strange to think if your father-in-law never mentioned you when married to his daughter.

    And would you make it *short,i know* comments about when and where Jesus teached Paul on christianity again,please.

  301. Zack T Says:

    Come on Zack T, strange to think if your father-in-law never mentioned you when married to his daughter. ~loop

    Wow… you’re making real good *loop* sense…
    You still haven’t explain how your answer answered mine…

    And would you make it *short,i know* comments about when and where Jesus teached Paul on christianity again,please. ~loop

    I’ll make it short.

    Paul:
    1 – came into the scene within years after “Jesus’ departure” (not 300 years later)
    2 – Muslim apologists are doing their best to argue that Paul’s ‘Christ’ teaching were in conflict with Jesus’ disciples’ teachings and that they even had arguments together (I guess based on Acts)
    3 – It is the Council of Nicaea you’re trying to talk about that came 300 years after “Jesus’ departure”, and no, there was no one named Paul in any way in that council. It was chaired by Caesar Constantine.

    and I’ll answer you with a subsequent answer, tell me when and where did Muhammad taught Caliph Uthman and Zaid on Islam?

  302. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    “…and I’ll answer you with a subsequent answer, tell me when and where did Muhammad taught Caliph Uthman and Zaid on Islam?”

    I also did NOT meet the Prophet (like Uthman and Zaid)!

  303. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    “..at least 20 000 errors in the two editions of The New Testament commonly read by Protestants and Catholics Modern students say there are probably 50 000 errors…”

    The fact is known worldwide. Don’t hate Deedat, for him just telling us something we do not like to pay attention. Please watch Dr. Anis Shorrosh – Deedat debate again.. 2 debates in London, witnessed by Londoners – and the world.

    The late Deedat was “very wicked man” for reminding us about the very fact. Damned Deedat !

    If we cannot accept it.. check it ourselves. Still, we don’t believe our eyes!

    We believe in anything we want to believe ! Once believed, we’ll get mad if anyone pointed to us some realities..or facts.

  304. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Then comes: “I challenge you Nasaei to prove you false allegation..!!”

  305. Zack T Says:

    Hahaha… I believe there were some people who already made their counter regarding the JW’s supposed 20,000 errors in the bible.. I’ve forgotten what was their counter argument…

    But nevertheless, the sight of the desperation of Muslims relying on any source to argue against the reliability of the bible… despite them not agreeing with the belief of which that source relies on.

    I doubt Nasaei even knows what were the 20,000 errors.

    And I’ve seen Ahmad Deedat’s debates, I have them in my video collection.

    And I tell you, he isn’t impressive. A lot of misrepresentations of our biblical beliefs, as typical of Muslim apologists.

    I doubt you agree with his ‘Swoon theory’, where he says Jesus WAS on the cross, but he somehow survived that and recovered from his injury in just 3 days in the tomb.

  306. Zack T Says:

    And no.. it is not known worldwide.. I don’t encounter much references made to the “20,000 errors” written by the JW, except by ignorant Muslims… not even from the JW themselves.

    Talk about being outdated.

  307. Scott Thong Says:

    .I found that written in a magazine “Awake and Watchtower” dated September 8,1957, about a young man purchased a King James Version Bible thinking it was without error but came across with an article entitled ‘The Truth About the Bible’ on the magazine which said that “as early as 1720, an English authority estimated that there were at least 20 000 errors in the two editions of The New Testament commonly read by Protestants and Catholics Modern students say there are probably 50 000 errors.And that young man was so shocked and his faith was shaken.What is yr stand Scott for the errors? – loop

    Those two magazines are published by Jehovah’s Wtinesses, who consider mainstream Christians to be wrong.

    Of course, without a list of what these thousands of errors are, it is all just conjecture.

  308. Scott Thong Says:

    And would you make it *short,i know* comments about when and where Jesus teached Paul on christianity again,please. – loop

    As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” – Acts 9:3-6

    In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!” “Yes, Lord,” he answered. The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.” … Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” – Acts 9:10-19 (excerpts)

    When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. – Acts 9:26-28

    So Saul/Paul saw Jesus in a vision, which could be dismissed as a lie by Saul… Except that Ananias also received a message from God to go find Saul. And then Barnabas (loop’s favourite disciple!) attests to Saul’s experience to the other disciples!

  309. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I admit, there can be differences in translations by many translators for both Bible and Quran translation. I’m sorry. I don’t know if that were talking about, or anythings else..

  310. Zack T Says:

    Yeah, thanks for admitting. Nasaei.. But I don’t think anyone is making any such statement about translations here.

  311. Zack T Says:

    Hmm.. what happened to our Muslims friends here?

    Loop no longer talking about Barnabas… or the Dead Sea Scrolls….

    Nor Nasaei talking about…… translations?

  312. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks Zack. “Take five”. Take a break hehe..

    May I suggest that you try to explain to readers here more about trinity, “triune god”. That would be helpful. I don’t think many non Christian understand it 100 percent. Maybe some Christians also do not fully understand it as well. Or, they have different or ‘bias’ idea on it.

    So, what it is all about (according to what you have in mind about it). How can you better explain it to people at large. Never mind if this topic had been “explained” before, because as I said, maybe many people can’t understand it. TQ

  313. Zack T Says:

    Right… Allow me to clarify a misconception here, by Nasaei.

    He asks me to explain about the Trinity in such a way to make sure that people will 100% understand this… or at least, assumed or imply that people must understand 100% in order for this idea of the Trinity to be acceptable or made logical or deemed valid.
    Unless he is honestly not aware of the understanding that an eternal God that can be explained 100% by us mere humans is no longer God.
    In conclusion, no one can understand 100% about God and His nature (which doesn’t mean no one can ever comprehend God nor does it mean God is incomparable to anything within His creation), so there is no point in me trying to make you understand 100% about the Trinity, because I myself can’t say I know God 100% (as, so happens, Jesus did and does).

    And in case, anyone assumes or says that one can’t understand or comprehend the idea or that the idea/concept is illogical and irrational, so therefore, the idea is not true or that it is so because the idea is not a reality.
    Then I would point to the great many science in the world that one can’t see nor understand fully, and yet have accepted as true and a reality, despite the lack of understanding or logical comprehension.

    Now…
    I will define the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) as being “One God in Three distinct Persons”; NOT “one God in three gods” or “three persons who are the same person”.
    I can give you a number of examples how the Trinity can be understood or explained through God’s creation.. (albeit in a limited sense, due to the fact that all of creation is lesser than God who is outside our worldly dimensions)

    1 – One Egg in Three distinct Parts – we have the Yoke, the White and the Shell… which makes up one Egg. This helps us understand how three distinct/different/unique parts make up one something.

    2 – Water in Three distinct States – we all know and accept the fact that water can be in three different states (in actual fact, all at the same time; ice at the two poles, the ocean and the sky).. Despite being in three different states (liquid, solid, gas), the nature/essence of water is still the same in all three; H2O, it’s never changed in these three states. Being God can be understood as the nature of the Father, Son and Spirit, just as being human is our nature as men.

    3 – Three primary colors of light that together forms White Light – the three primary colors of light; Red, Green & Blue… the three are distinct… and you can’t say that Red is Blue or Blue is Green or Green is Red… These three colors are distinct and not each other. But together, they form White Light.
    In the same way, the Father is not the Son, nor the Son is the Father, nor the Holy Spirit is the Father or the Son. These three is different and distinct but yet together, they are equally God.

  314. Scott Thong Says:

    My preferred (and original) comparison is ‘3-dimensional space’.

    What is length? It space. What is width? It is space. What is depth? It is space.

    So what is space? Space is not just length, nor just width, nor just depth. Space is all three together, each dimension distinct but inseparable.

    Now let’s go to the Triune God. What is the Father? He is God. What is the Son (Jesus)? He is God. What is the Holy Spirit? He is God.

    So what is God? God is not just the Father, nor just the Son, not just the Holy Spirit. God is all three together, each person distinct but inseparable.

    So if we can accept such a concept as 3-dimensional space without thinking it weird, why not the concept of a 3-as-1 God? 1m x 1m x 1m = 1 cubic m, not 3 cubic m.

  315. Zack T Says:

    4 – lastly, people in a nation. (We’ll take U.S. as our reference for this example) We have the middle-class (common people, with average financial stability and homes), the upper-class ones (people with high positions in the society) and then we have the lower-class people (those with poor financial standings and aren’t doing so well in the society).
    – The lower-class can’t do much in society and are often the ones that serves everyone by doing the dirty jobs (i.e. sweeping, cleaning out rubbish, serving as waiters/waitresses, etc). And pretty much they don’t serve others in their own names and their names (by their own) hold no authority/influence in society.
    – The middle-class are those who aren’t doing as bad… nor are doing that great. However, they are able to become the inheritors of those of the upper-class (if they do well) and are amongst those that can give orders to those of lower-class to do what they want them to do according to their job scope (e.g janitors, cleaners, shoe-shiners, etc).
    – The upper-class are those who hold high and influential positions in the society; best example is the President, who holds the most influential (ideally) in the society/community. His word is usually the final word that means everyone else, despite what disputes prior or after, should adhere to. (Note: usually, ideally)
    However, despite the three different classes, the U.S. Constitution affirms that no matter what position in society one holds, he/she is equal to everyone else; i.e. everyone’s voice is equally important or equally valid, every opinion is counted and no one’s voice is suppressible or can be considered not valid.
    E.g. everyone and anyone has the right to free speech, and everyone else has the right to be offended by that person’s free speech.

    Despite the difference of class or position in society where the lower answers to the upper when it comes to business/work, everyone is still equal and have an equal say as an American citizen in the U.S.

    In the same way, the Son answers to the Father and the Holy Spirit to the two (hence why the Father sends the Son, and in turn, the Son can send the Spirit)… but yet the Three are equal and One as God.
    One biblical ‘type’ of the Trinity that can be found in the bible is Abraham, Isaac and Abraham’s oldest servant/’butler’, Eliezer.
    Abraham, the father of the household, Isaac, the heir of the father’s inheritance, and Eliezer, the servant who serves both and never serve in his own name, but in the name of his master/s.
    Thus, in the same way, Jesus the Son is the heir and inheritor of God’s kingdom, who currently sits at the right hand of the Father on the Father’s throne, and He has sent the Holy Spirit to His people; the Spirit who will lead us in all truth and not speak of Himself but speak of the Son and God. (in case loop is still reading.. it’s not Muhammad, I’ve made that point before)

  316. Zack T Says:

    Thanks for sharing that, Scott. Forgotten about that one.

    There are many examples of how we can explain the Trinity… and many reasons why the Trinity is the truth to God’s nature as God, which Islam fails to appreciate.

    Like Allah’s word who is called the Messiah, who Muslims say was not with Allah since before any creation; i.e. eternal, in other words, Allah’s word was not eternal or that Allah never spoke prior to creation… or Allah being eternally love, but yet before creation, had no one to love but himself.
    Muslims say Allah is eternal and never changes, but yet, with logical and critical thinking, Allah did change (his love and his word) prior to creation.

    Whereas our Triune God is indeed love because God has eternally loved and have a loving relationship within the Three Divine Persons, and that creation was merely an extension of that love that was already there.

  317. loop Says:

    “So what is space? Space is not just length, nor just width, nor just depth. Space is all three together, each dimension distinct but inseparable.”
    Who created the space? Jesus?

  318. Scott Thong Says:

    Yes, Jesus (who = God)

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. – John 1:1-3

  319. loop Says:

    My Allah said He created the heaven and earth in 6 days in detail in the Qur’an (Verses 7:54, 10:3, 11:7 , 25:59 and 41:9-12).
    And you said all thing were made by your Jesus ( = God ). Tell me how is your God created the world according to your bible version.

  320. Scott Thong Says:

    Why? From past experience, you’d just mock it in an incoherent way, then disappear when you can’t answer my return questions.

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