One Piece’s Neptune – A Kingly Sacrifice: Christian and Muslim Views


From the One Piece Manga, chapter 617…

Shark-fishman and near-psychotic antagonist, Hodi Jones, throws water droplets so forcefully that they become like arrows:

The royal soldiers, tied up with ropes and helpless to defend themselves, bear the brunt of the attack:

When suddenly the giant merman and monarch of the undersea kingdom, King Neptune, unexpectedly flings himself in front of his subjects in order to absorb the blows with his own royal body:

Hodi laughs mockingly at this display of selflessness:

And a short while later, he demonstrates how he thinks a real leader should behave when faced with an incoming attack:

Two totally different views, from two opposing leaders.

King Neptune’s example is immediately relatable to a Christian.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. – John 3:16

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. – John 15:13

Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. – Romans 5:7-8

The attitude of selfless concern, sympathy and self-sacrifice for those far lesser than oneself is exactly what makes God even more majestic, noble and commendable to Christian thinking.

Whereas for a Muslim, that a ruler would subject himself to such humiliation for the sake of his lowly subjects is unthinkable.

That God would degrade Himself and come down to the level of His own creation; that God would sacrifice Himself/His own son (in fact, even having a son) for lowly created beings; that a perfect, infinite, uncreated God could at all relate to a flawed, finite, created world; or even that an innocent prophet might die at the hands of sinful unbelievers – these ideas are anathema to Islamic thinking.

As Hodi Jones sneers, such actions would disqualify a King from being worthy of his throne.

So the same action of God sacrificing Himself for humanity makes Him more deserving of worship to Christians, while making Him totally undeserving of deity to Muslims.

It’s a case of Values Dissonance or even Blue And Orange Morality.

This is just one of the many clear differences between Christian and Islamic worldviews and attitudes.

UPDATE: A commentor sparked a long discussion. Key points are excerpted at Differences in Worldviews of Christianity vs Islam – As Supplied by menj.

See also related:

139 Responses to “One Piece’s Neptune – A Kingly Sacrifice: Christian and Muslim Views”

  1. Zack T Says:

    Nice.

  2. loop Says:

    Strictly different due to in Islam Allah the Most Merciful. Why He call himself to be merciful god? Quran 2:21, “O men! serve your Lord Who created you and those before you so that you may guard (against evil). ”

    The most clear reason is that Allah created all the living thing around the world and that includes you and I. As Allah did create you on the earth that he is merciful to you so that you could live on this earth.

    Why should He take one’s life for one’s friends.Or for the sinners of others when He promises that “There shall be famines.” The net result of all natural disasters, be they earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, droughts, tidal waves or unusual weather patterns, is the shortage of food. The shortage of food and the subsequent rise in food prices, is already the number one problem facing many governments. Famine – world famine – with food selling at unbelievably high prices is the Black Horse (the 3rd Seal) of the Apocalypse.
    (Matthew 24:7, Luke 21:25-26, Revelation 6:5-6)

  3. loop Says:

    Isn’t ‘all that are the beginning of birth pains’ like said Matthew 24:6-8

  4. Zack T Says:

    This blog post is talking about the contrast between a royal king who is willing to lay down his life for the sake of his subjects/followers and a leader who is willing to lay down the lives of his subjects for his own sake instead.

    So, I don’t see what’s famine or birth pains got to do with this blog.

    And does creating earth and us to inhabit it have anything to do with the blog post either? only loop would think so.

  5. Simon Thong Says:

    one track mind

  6. loop Says:

    better than being double barrel

  7. Zack T Says:

    one track mind….

    double barrel…

    Nice contrast, loop.

  8. Zack T Says:

    Off-topic-ness…

    Muslims Coming To Christ in Kurdistan/Northern Iraq

  9. loop Says:

    ‘Muslim coming to Christ..’
    Maybe they were told there’re no hell in the bible

  10. Zack T Says:

    omg, you so funny, loop. Ha ha ha ha. You made me laugh. Ha ha.

  11. nasaei ahmad Says:

    Is true Maghdi Allam Egyptian born Italian journalist also “converted” to Christianity several years ago as reported by West media? I believe he had never “converted” because he was not a Muslim from the beginning, but a Coptic Egyptian Christian.

  12. Simon Thong Says:

    There will always be conversion, from Christian to Muslim, and from Muslim to Christian. That’s life.

  13. nasaei ahmad Says:

    Yeah Simon. If we were to describe why people ‘abandon’ their faith and accept another religion, what is the best word we could use other than ‘lost faith’ ? People like Salman Rushdie, Yusuf Estes, Lina Joy, Aishah Bukhari, Yvonne Ridley, Mike Tyson (and thousand more).. Of course “lost faith”…

    Hopefully someone make research on the topic to understand people…how do you think?..We want to know…WHY

  14. Simon Thong Says:

    It’s a waste of time to do research…but you could pay me to conduct the research, which would add to my income. Probably you won’t learn more than you already know.

  15. Zack T Says:

    I believe he had never “converted” because he was not a Muslim from the beginning, but a Coptic Egyptian Christian. ~Nasaei

    Aww, now now, Nasaei. You wouldn’t want to go against what your Prophet Muhammad said.

    The Prophet Muhammad said, “No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
    – From www islam101.com/dawah/newBorn.htm

    When your Lord drew forth from the loins of the children of Aadam their descendants and made them testify concerning themselves. Saying: Am I not your Lord? They said: “Yes, we testify to it.” (This) in case you say on the Day of Judgement, “We were unaware of this.” Or in case you say: It was our ancestors who made partners (with Allah) and we are only their descendants…[Surah Al-A’raaf 7:172-173]
    – From www missionislam.com/discover/believeitornot.htm

    Which gives more support (even Quranic) that Islam is actually the fastest shrinking religion in the world..

  16. Scott Thong Says:

    Which gives more support (even Quranic) that Islam is actually the fastest shrinking religion in the world.. – Zack T

    Citations?

  17. Zack T Says:

    My citation was given earlier, about how everyone (and the Quran does say everyone) is actually born Muslims… and that only later on, as they grow up in an environment, do they convert out of Islam.

    And since we all know Islam only started with Muhammad within the 7th Century AD, and although it may be increasing in numbers since (more due to high birth rates in Muslim families), they are still little in number compared to all the other non-muslim groups/religions/etc combined since the beginning.

  18. Scott Thong Says:

    On Yusuf Ali, I find it sad that many consider that modern or Western-style music is ‘not Islamic’.

    I believe that the style doesn’t make music ‘holy’ or ‘worldly’, rather it is the lyrics. That is why we have such things as Christian Rock, Christian Jazz, Christian R & B, etc. (Do such things exist for Islamic equivalents, apart from syair and so on?)

    The former Cat Stevens could have reached the ears of many people if he had kept on composing jazz with his new message in the lyrics. Instead, he disappeared from the popular music scene after his conversion.

  19. Ron Says:

    “The former Cat Stevens could have reached the ears of many people if he had kept on composing jazz with his new message in the lyrics. Instead, he disappeared from the popular music scene after his conversion.”

    He’s still around:

    http://www.yusufislam.com/songs/

  20. Scott Thong Says:

    Ah yes, interesting observations on his quitting the music scene for so long:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_Stevens#Return_to_music

  21. loop Says:

    ‘Islam is actually the fastest shrinking religion in the world..’

    But those carrying out the teachings that they believe with great appreciation are still Muslims, without corruption.

  22. menj Says:

    “The attitude of selfless concern, sympathy and self-sacrifice for those far lesser than oneself is exactly what makes God even more majestic, noble and commendable to Christian thinking.”

    Seriously, I LOL-ed at this statement. Having studied Christianity for so long, its amazing how deep the depths the naked man worshippers sink to in their self-delusion🙂 If one created a robot, one does not have to be a robot or appear as one in order to show “selfless concern, sympathy and self-sacrifice” for the robot concerned.

    I leave you with this quote:

    There is nothing in Islam to lead a man to say, “Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death”? or “I know that in me; that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing.” A religion with reasonable attainable objectives…does not give the sinner the anguish of a guilty conscience nor the frustration of trying without success to attain in practical living the requirements of an absolute moral standard. In brief, Islam makes a man feel good, while Christianity necessarily first, and often thereafter, makes a man feel bad. The religion of the broken heart is Christianity, not Islam“. – J.G. Vos

    Emphasis is my own.

  23. Zack T Says:

    Mark 2:17, Jesus says, “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

    Matthew 5:4, “Blessed are they that mourn; for they shall be comforted.”

    I’ll be glad to be have a ‘broken heart’, if it means Jesus will come to me. =)

  24. Simon Thong Says:

    And won’t you allow God in Jesus Christ to mend your broken heart, menj? Your very name (pseudonym?) hints at the need of the mending of your very soul, and then you could be renamed menjded, having been healed by Jesus Christ.

    But you are proud, not least in the way you put things: Having studied Christianity for so long…

    LOL for the sincerity and naivety of your self-proclaimed knowledge of Christianity. Don’t you know that there are many who have studied it far longer? Or that there were some who studied the Scriptures briefly and it didn’t take them long to discover the truth of Christianity, that in Jesus Christ, God reconciles the world to Himself? Methinks you need to study less and open your heart at least once to the soft prompting of the Holy Spirit.

  25. Ron Says:

    Christianity: peddling a cure for a non-existent disease since ~33 CE

    Islam: killing in the name of peace since 632 CE

  26. Simon Thong Says:

    Atheists, agnostocs: nurturing hate-filled plants that bear bitter, angry fruit to poison human joy.

  27. Scott Thong Says:

    RE your second sentence…

    The first comic here.

    Oh King Steve, you so crazy!

  28. Scott Thong Says:

    A religion with reasonable attainable objectives…does not give the sinner the anguish of a guilty conscience nor the frustration of trying without success to attain in practical living the requirements of an absolute moral standard. – menj

    menj, put that sentence forward without any qualifiers. Would not a neutral observer think it was referring to Islam’s countless halal and haram restrictions, five pillars that require great discipline, system of merits and demerits which requires constantly balancing the scales, no assurance of attaining heaven even for the Prophet Mohammad (as he himself admitted)… And not Christianity which simply requires an admission of the impossibility of it all and an acceptance of Jesus’ free offer of assured grace?

    “For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus said in Matthew 5:20.

    Truly, Islam tries to outdo the already incredibly minute laws and regulations of Moses. Whereas Christianity relies on Jesus having already fulfilled all righteousness on our behalf.

    Which one do we see inspiring joy in daily life? Is that word even in the Quran?

  29. menj Says:

    “And won’t you allow God in Jesus Christ to mend your broken heart, menj?”

    Jesus has a God (), so how can Jesus peace be upon him mend “my broken heart” (not that my heart is broken in the first place.)

    “Your very name (pseudonym?)”

    Acronym, not a pseudonym as you erroneously assume.

    “then you could be renamed menjded, having been healed by Jesus Christ.”

    I don’t appreciate the sordid humour of your making fun of my given name. How would you like it if I made fun of your surname by comparing it to a certain woman garment?

    “But you are proud, not least in the way you put things: Having studied Christianity for so long… LOL for the sincerity and naivety of your self-proclaimed knowledge of Christianity.”

    Hardly self-proclaimed, pal. Might want to take a look at my past writings dating from 2002 and check it out for yourself.

    “Don’t you know that there are many who have studied it far longer?”

    Its not a boast, its simply a statement of fact.

    “Methinks you need to study less and open your heart at least once to the soft prompting of the Holy Spirit.”

    Not interested in worshipping half-naked men who cried “Eli Eli Lama Sabachtani” and died as a common Roman criminal, sorry.

  30. menj Says:

    “Truly, Islam tries to outdo the already incredibly minute laws and regulations of Moses.”

    Someone here has not been reading Matthew 5:17-19.

    “Whereas Christianity relies on Jesus having already fulfilled all righteousness on our behalf.”

    Don’t you realise how silly you sound in the light of your statement compared with Matthew 5:17-19 side-by-side?

    “Which one do we see inspiring joy in daily life? Is that word even in the Quran?”

    “Truly my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Rabb (Only God, Cherisher and Sustainer) of the Worlds.” (Qur’an, 6:162)

    And its much more meaningful than John 3:16, be rest assured.

  31. Zack T Says:

    Jesus has a God (), so how can Jesus peace be upon him mend “my broken heart” (not that my heart is broken in the first place.) ~menj

    John 10:27-30, Jesus says,
    “my sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow Me.
    I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
    My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
    I and the Father are one.”

    Mark 2:17, Jesus says, “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Note: Jesus likens Himself to the sinners as a physician is to the sick.)

    So yes, just as the Father can, Jesus can mend your heart too, menj (if you had one as you stated).

    Not interested in worshipping half-naked men who cried “Eli Eli Lama Sabachtani” and died as a common Roman criminal, sorry. ~menj

    Isaiah 53:9-11,
    And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
    Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; He has put him to grief. When (God) make his soul an offering for sin, He shall see his seed, He shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
    He shall see the labor of his soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge (God’s) righteous servant shall justify many, for he shall bear their iniquities.

    Someone here has not been reading Matthew 5:17-19.

    Don’t you realise how silly you sound in the light of your statement compared with Matthew 5:17-19 side-by-side? ~menj

    Uhhh… I don’t see what’s so silly?

    Jesus didn’t destroy the Law or the Prophets, but came to fulfill it.
    Was Scott destroying the Law? Did he say we shall no longer obey the Law? Or forget about the Law that was recorded in the OT?

    No comparison between Allah’s grace that still requires Muslim’s works before he gives/rewards it (S. 5:9; 8:29; 42:26) while God of the bible’s grace is a free gift through faith in Jesus (John 3:16).

    Quran 6:162 VS John 3:16,

    Yes, Quran 6:162 is indeed much more meaningful if you see yourself as the character of focus (my, my, my, my) as compared to John 3:16’s character of focus; God Himself.

  32. menj Says:

    “So yes, just as the Father can, Jesus can mend your heart too, menj (if you had one as you stated).”

    My heart is working fine as it is as I have bear witness that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Prophet….but I thank you for the concern of my soul.

    “Was Scott destroying the Law? Did he say we shall no longer obey the Law? Or forget about the Law that was recorded in the OT?”

    Since Mr. Scott Thong was ranting on and on about the perceived “legalism” of Islam (mostly misconceptions and missionary propaganda) vis-a-vis Mosaic law, I thought it was a good idea to show him his own NT text which says Jesus pbuh never had any issues with the Law as Mr. Thong obviously has.

  33. Scott Thong Says:

    As for the Talmudic account, I find it rather ironic that you have to resort to a text which demeans Jesus, peace be upon him. That same book also accuses Jesus of being the son of a bastard and that his mother Mary, peace be upon her, is a whore. Would you accept those accounts as factual too? – menj

    On the contrary, that such vitriol is directed at Jesus and His followers serves to bolster the authenticity of the citation. If they opposed the Christians so much, surely they would not play into the fabrication that this Jesus actually lived and was crucified? Yet we don’t see that sort of refutation, as if they all accept that Jesus’ life and death were an indisputable, known fact.

    Furthermore, the accusations against Mary also corroborate with the Biblical (and Quranic) account of Mary being a pregnant virgin. Just as atheists dismiss miracles as the work of God (“Bah! All coincidences or trickery!”), the Talmud writers obviously pooh-poohed Christian claims of a virgin birth (“Bah! He was conceived out of wedlock.”).

    Hence, while I obviously reject some of the allegations, the passages on the whole point to the fact that there WAS a man named Jesus, and popular knowledge holds that He was alleged to be conceived by some method other than Joseph, and finally killed in some public way. The link I appended has other corroborations.

    On the other hand, a passage overtly praising Jesus would be criticized as obviously having been tampered with by Christians or their supporters, correct? Just as with Josephus’ if it be lawful to call him a man passage?

    —————————–

    Someone here has not been reading Matthew 5:17-19. – menj

    Seeing as I cited that passage, how could I not have read it first?

    Don’t you realise how silly you sound in the light of your statement compared with Matthew 5:17-19 side-by-side?

    Only to the uninitiated, or the self-imposed narrow-visioned. On the surface it would seem that Jesus is asking that we must be more legalistic than even the Pharisees. However, the inference is that no one can ever attain even righteousness to earn a place in heaven on his own – hence the necessity for a divine intervener.

    As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” – Romans 3:10-12

    As agreed by this:

    By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me – Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 266)

    If not even the holy, righteous and pious Mohammad was assured of his salvation, what more the common person?

    —————————–

    And its much more meaningful than John 3:16, be rest assured.

    Having so much experience on the Net, surely you know that personal opinion doesn’t count for much in an objective argument? An atheist would dismiss both passages as equally meaningless.

    —————————–

    Addressing the other “thong” (please excuse the pun) – menj

    Well, I don’t take offense. Personally, the mix-up has gotten me quite a lot of hits:

    https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2006/09/29/thong-of-the-day/

    Which was sanctioned as canon starting from the Council of Nicea onwards (3rd century CE) and even then, it has continuously went through various redactions and changes. What about the Christians who had other canons BEFORE the 3rd century CE?

    Just to note, the issue of Biblical authenticity VS Caliph Uthman’s BBQ is a semi-regularly returning topic around here. (But if I mention that, I should also mention that the Council of Nicea has also been brought up many times.)

    —————————–

    Since Mr. Scott Thong was ranting on and on about the perceived “legalism” of Islam (mostly misconceptions and missionary propaganda) vis-a-vis Mosaic law

    So, praytell, how does Islam prescribe reaching heaven? Cos it sure ain’t by unmerited grace!

    —————————–

    Just out of curiousity, how did you stumble across my blog this recent round?

  34. Zack T Says:

    vis-a-vis Mosaic law, I thought it was a good idea to show him his own NT text which says Jesus pbuh never had any issues with the Law as Mr. Thong obviously has. ~menj

    Either you are genuinely misunderstanding Scott’s comment or deliberating wishing that he did mean that.

  35. menj Says:

    “On the contrary, that such vitriol is directed at Jesus and His followers serves to bolster the authenticity of the citation.”

    Might want to tell that to the Jews who, until this day, not only deny Jesus peace be upon him and his Prophethood, but also denies even his very existence, based upon the very same text that you are citing! Humourous, isn’t it?

    That aside, the answer is no, quoting from redactions compiled only centuries later does not “serve to bolster the authenticity” of anything.

    “If not even the holy, righteous and pious Mohammad was assured of his salvation, what more the common person?”

    Ripped out of its context, as is the usual missionary tactic. This has been dealt with here. Long story short, the answer is: your assumption based on just one hadith is incorrect. Muhammad pbuh knows of and he is assured of his own salvation.

    “So, pray tell, how does Islam prescribe reaching heaven? Cos it sure ain’t by unmerited grace!”

    You are asking questions that even kids in Darjah Satu know the answer to. Should I even waste my time answering something so elementary?

    But very well, I shall answer you. The answer is that Islam assures salvation not just by doing good deeds alone or just by relying on God’s Providence alone. The answer is that it is a combination of both.

  36. menj Says:

    “Just out of curiousity, how did you stumble across my blog this recent round?”

    Your blog has always been within my sights ever since the other neocon (Rajan Rishyakaran) kicked the bucket and booked a one-way ticket to Neraka al-Jahim.

  37. Scott Thong Says:

    Might want to tell that to the Jews who, until this day, not only deny Jesus peace be upon him and his Prophethood, but also denies even his very existence, based upon the very same text that you are citing! Humourous, isn’t it? – menj

    I find it odd that they use that text to deny Jesus’ existence, as it plainly assumes that such a person did exist (just as a heretic, not a prophet or messiah).

    Every now and then we get a Jewish follower of Judaism who becomes convinced that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and they become a Messianic Jew.

    your assumption based on just one hadith is incorrect. Muhammad pbuh knows of and he is assured of his own salvation.

    Well if I wanted to ‘lawyer’ it, I could also argue that he was referring to his exact, detailed accomodations in heaven – maybe it would be made of heavenly pearls, maybe it would be heavenly gems, but he knows he’s going there.

    Wouldn’t an easier, more straightforward response be to cite a Quranic verse or Hadith flatly stating that Mohamad or Muslims are assured of a place in heaven? That the apologist went to lengths to use two indirect defenses makes me think that such verses are not present.

    You are asking questions that even kids in Darjah Satu know the answer to. Should I even waste my time answering something so elementary?

    But very well, I shall answer you. The answer is that Islam assures salvation not just by doing good deeds alone or just by relying on God’s Providence alone. The answer is that it is a combination of both.

    It is precisely because everyone ‘knows’ the answer that I am compelled to ask, because popular understanding holds that a Muslim isn’t getting to heaven unless he adheres to the five pillars – and may still lose out if his cumulative haram acts are too weighty. The first and foremost defining trait of Muslims that most people see is their refusal to partake in this or that act or food – their list of legal do’s and don’ts.

    But that is besides the point now – you admit in your response that a Muslim still has to do good deeds (with reliance on God as you state). This is functionally the same as Judaism compared to the paradigm shift of Christianity’s unmerited grace.

    How then is Islam not based on the same legalistic principles of spiritual reward and punishment as that of the Pharisees and teachers of the Mosaic Law?

  38. Scott Thong Says:

    I assume the link appended to your name is the forum. With your permission, I’d like to add either or both to my blogroll… Most Muslim commenters here don’t maintain blogs.

    Rajan Rishyakaran? Never heard of him, and none of the regular Malaysia-focused guys have mentioned him to me. But apart from the neocon-ness, what does he have to do with me?

  39. Zack T Says:

    From menj’s link, “The first possible solution is that the Qur’anic verse and statement of the Prophet (peace be upon him) came before the Prophet (peace be upon him) knew that he was going to paradise. ”

    Compared to Jesus’ understanding of what will happen to Him after death:

    John 10:17, Jesus says, “There My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.”

    Matthew 16:21,
    From the time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised the third day.

    John 2:19,21,22,
    Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days, I will raise it up.”
    But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

    As compared to Allah having to rectify what ‘damage’ Satan did on his prophets:

    “Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations (ayatihi). Allah is Knower, Wise;” S. 22:52 Pickthall

    Or that Muhammad was even effected by black magic; Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 400; Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 75, Number 400.

  40. menj Says:

    “Rajan Rishyakaran? Never heard of him, and none of the regular Malaysia-focused guys have mentioned him to me. But apart from the neocon-ness, what does he have to do with me?”

    He’s so much like you in every way possible, which makes me wonder whether you are his reincarnation:mrgreen:

  41. menj Says:

    Correction: He was so much like you…. Sorry, left out the past tense. Guy’s dead as a doornail.

  42. Scott Thong Says:

    Mm yes, kind of like how Jesus was rumoured to be John the Baptist even though they were contemporaries…

    But seriously, how did you get from Rajan to me? At least KTemoc mentioned me by name before in the post that gave me my subtitle…

    Hey, wait! Going to http://ktemoc.blogspot.com/2008/04/tibet-beijing-games.html it seems that R. Rajan is mentioned there too!

    So I suppose among the generalized grouping you and KTemoc fall under (Local Malaysian neo-libs? Don’t ask me…), me and Rajan are linked the same way that Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin might be linked by a group of an American liberals.

  43. menj Says:

    I am not a “neo-lib” anything. KTemoc and I have vastly different ideologies, its not even remotely close. You and the late Rajan, however, are very similar in thought and writing.

  44. Scott Thong Says:

    Not being familiar with Rajan, I can’t opine before going through his writings. Care to describe some points where I think the same way?

    So, how did you stumble across me?

  45. Astroboy Says:

    Your blog has always been within my sights ever since the other neocon (Rajan Rishyakaran) kicked the bucket and booked a one-way ticket to Neraka al-Jahim.

    Rajan is in Heaven.
    Menj`s father and mother are destined for Hell to be sodomised by Satan.
    Readers/commentors should note that this “holey” Menj is well noted for watching pornography. How about it Menj? You jacked off how many times today.

  46. menj Says:

    “Not being familiar with Rajan, I can’t opine before going through his writings. Care to describe some points where I think the same way?”

    I’ve already linked to his blog, feel free to peruse his blog to your heart’s content. Not that he is around now to object anyway….kih kih kih kih.

  47. menj Says:

    @Astroboy: Who are you and why are you making up lies about me when I don’t even know who you are?

  48. Scott Thong Says:

    Well so far, I find Rajan’s positions less right-wing than myself (at least the way he writes) – actually I just see some Israel/Palestine content. On actual writing style, I think we differ greatly – hardly any snark or mockery from him. On topics, once upon a time I used to cover things like he did… Now I’m much more focused on just a few recurring themes.

  49. menj Says:

    “Every now and then we get a Jewish follower of Judaism who becomes convinced that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and they become a Messianic Jew.”

    There *are* Messianic Jews around, but not the kind that you were referring to. These are the genuine ones, not the fake ones rallying under the “Jews for Jesus” banner. They are not Muslims, but they accept Jesus as the Messiah and they definitely reject the Trinity and the doctrine of Original Sin. Most importantly, they also strictly follow the very Mosaic Laws that you were pooh-pooh-ing as “legalism”.

    They are the true followers of Jesus, not you or your Trinitarian pals.

    “popular understanding holds that a Muslim isn’t getting to heaven unless he adheres to the five pillars – and may still lose out if his cumulative haram acts are too weighty.”

    That’s only part of the story and in Islam, even a sinner who sins so bad that everyone around him/her thinks that there is “no redemption” for the person is still able to go to heaven simply by God’s Grace alone — should the person in question truly believe that there is no god but The God and do not associate partners with Him.

    In other words, a sinner who believes in monotheism as per the Islamic definition has a better chance of reaching Paradise than you, a Christian who believes that God is divided into three parts.

  50. menj Says:

    “Well so far, I find Rajan’s positions less right-wing than myself”

    Dig even deeper and you will find it more evident. I admit that this particular version still online is less right-wing than the original incarnation hosted on rajanr.com back in 2003. Too bad that version was taken offline and Rajan never did restore his earlier posts.

  51. Scott Thong Says:

    That’s only part of the story and in Islam, even a sinner who sins so bad that everyone around him/her thinks that there is “no redemption” for the person is still able to go to heaven simply by God’s Grace alone — should the person in question truly believe that there is no god but The God and do not associate partners with Him.

    Haven’t heard that one before. Your supporting passages?

  52. Scott Thong Says:

    Too bad that version was taken offline and Rajan never did restore his earlier posts.

    Maybe he became more centrist, just as I have become more conservative.

  53. menj Says:

    “Haven’t heard that one before. Your supporting passages?”

    The hadith of the prostitute and a dog is a good example of what I am referring to.

    Hadith – Bukhari 4:538, Narrated Abu Huraira

    Allah’s Apostle said, “A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that.”

  54. menj Says:

    “Maybe he became more centrist, just as I have become more conservative.”

    I guess we shall never know. Wa Allahu a’lam, only God knows best!

  55. Simon Thong Says:

    Menj – “Your very name (pseudonym?)”

    Acronym, not a pseudonym as you erroneously assume.

    Do you know how to read carefully and understand punctuation marks? See the ‘?’ at the end of ‘pseudonym’?

    And how could it be your given name when it is an acronym? Unless it is in your birth cert as ‘Menj’? I don’t mind jokes about my name. Happens all the time. That’s part and parcel of blogging. But you do mind? Ok, my apologies.

  56. Astroboy Says:

    # menj Says:
    March 31, 11 at 7:47 pm

    @Astroboy: Who are you and why are you making up lies about me when I don’t even know who you are?
    ____________

    Idiot you dunno how to read?I am Astroboy.
    You are into pornography (that is not a lie, denying it makes you the liar), and that is true.
    You are a vile, verminous creature (a typhus louse)whose parents are destined to be sodomised by Satan.

  57. Astroboy Says:

    Mangy “Menj”, all infected, pustulating sores, bleeding, filthy verminous scum, living in gutters. Swine are cleaner.

  58. Simon Thong Says:

    Menj – Hardly self-proclaimed, pal. Might want to take a look at my past writings dating from 2002 and check it out for yourself.

    Simon Thong – Don’t you know that there are many who have studied it far longer?

    Menj – Its not a boast, its simply a statement of fact.

    I have taken the time and trouble to read your postings. I think you are well-read about CERTAIN SELECTIVE ASPECTS of Christianity. These are aspects that are ‘old hat’ to anyone who has spent time in theological education. Elsewhere, I had pointed out that Christianity’s greatest critics have been Christians themselves, not others, and that our self-examination has always been more thorough and systematic than any others have offered. We have nothing to fear regarding the reliability of the NT documents.Through all this, Scripture is Scripture, the Word of God, even to Christian scholars who have scrutinized the NT documents.

    That you have latched on to the scholarly work of selected scholars to bolster your case hardly means that you have studied Christianity for a long time, merely that you have studied what helps you attack Christianity. You are no scholar of Christianity, just a researcher who has studied Christian scholars’ criticisms.

  59. Astroboy Says:

    Friday, May 19, 2006
    The latest pic posted by MENJ of himself.
    http://about-nude-not-naked.blogspot.com/2006/05/tidak-apa-menj.html

    Looks totally mangy

  60. Astroboy Says:

    From the link on this freeloading parasite menj:

    “We are talking about a 26 year old student (he is still studying in APIIT) who is still living with his family. Nothing wrong with living with your family and generally nothing wrong about still being in college at 26.”

  61. Simon Thong Says:

    It looks as though menj and Astroboy have something going on…some time in the past? lol

  62. Astroboy Says:

    Previously, ShadowFox, whom I personally feel is a very resourceful blogger, has posted on his (in)famous blog several write-ups about Menj. Of the condemnations made against Menj in those blog posts, ShadowFox:

    * calls Menj a “Muslim scum” for the suggestion that non-Muslims should be tattooed – an act that Hitler once did to the Jews.
    * claims that good Muslims spoke up against Menj and Mahaguru (another blogger).
    * questions if Menj is a “Pious Muslim or a Hypocrite?“

    If banning ShadowFox from PPS is not enough, Menj went further to lodge a police report against ShadowFox for allegedly defaming him and posting blasphemous statements against Allah on his blog.
    On the other hand, Asia Sentinel journalist Jed Yoong also declared an open war with Menj by asking people to boycott PPS and Menj. Just recently, Jed has been investigated for sedition following a police report lodged by “UMNO Virtual Club” (Kelab Maya UMNO).
    A virtual club? Maybe next time I need to come out with my own virtual club called… the “Mr. De Virtual Club” ahhahaha!

    http://mrdefinite.com/malaysian-blogosphere-war-menj-vs-shadowfox/

  63. Astroboy Says:

    Previously, ShadowFox, whom I personally feel is a very resourceful blogger, has posted on his (in)famous blog several write-ups about Menj. Of the condemnations made against Menj in those blog posts, ShadowFox:

    * calls Menj a “Muslim scum” for the suggestion that non-Muslims should be tattooed – an act that Hitler once did to the Jews.
    * claims that good Muslims spoke up against Menj and Mahaguru (another blogger).
    * questions if Menj is a “Pious Muslim or a Hypocrite?“
    http://mrdefinite.com/malaysian-blogosphere-war-menj-vs-shadowfox/

  64. Astroboy Says:

    Do you know how to read carefully and understand punctuation marks? See the ‘?’ at the end of ‘pseudonym’?
    ________________

    The sh*thead (whose prophet is Adolf Hitler) is now about 31 years and still a parasite.

  65. menj Says:

    “I have taken the time and trouble to read your postings. I think you are well-read about CERTAIN SELECTIVE ASPECTS of Christianity.”

    Let’s just say that I have read and studied enough to know what is there to know about Christianity.

    “That you have latched on to the scholarly work of selected scholars to bolster your case hardly means that you have studied Christianity for a long time, merely that you have studied what helps you attack Christianity.”

    What you think about my motivations for studying and researching on Christianity is irrelevant. I simply said “Having studied Christianity for a long time….” without any connotations attached to it. Its not my problem if you want to make assumptions or guessing games at my level of knowledge where Christianity is concerned.

    ” You are no scholar of Christianity, just a researcher who has studied Christian scholars’ criticisms.”

    I never said that I am a “scholar of Christianity”. Stop putting words into my mouth when I have never said or insinuated such a thing. How an innocuous statement of fact be interpreted as such amazes me to no end.

  66. menj Says:

    @Astroboy: Keep on digging outdated material from 2006, I really don’t know what is your problem with me. I do not know you and I am not interested in getting to know you, sh*thead.

  67. Astroboy Says:

    Let’s just say that I have read and studied enough to know what is there to know about Christianity.

    hahahaha and then,

    I never said that I am a “scholar of Christianity”. Stop putting words into my mouth
    —————————

    The infected parasite knows not whether it is coming or going.

  68. Astroboy Says:

    Go watch some porn movies la menj. Stay away from what you do not understand. Oh and in a few hours you will be pointing you backside in the air again.

  69. Astroboy Says:

    Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi @ MENJ had been appointed by myself, Zainol Abideen @ MAHAGURU58, Founding member and Protem President of the Muslim Bloggers Alliance, to be the Secretary-General of the due to be registered Muslim Bloggers Alliance which for the moment being is operating as a Google Group here.

    Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi @ MENJ was entrusted by myself to be my webmaster and I had commissioned Mohd Elfie to backup my blog articles from here with the intention of moving to my own dotcom from Blogger soon.

    On April the 15th, 2008, I happened to come across a *posting on MENJ’s blog @ http://www.ibnjuferi.com which contained lewd and explicit pictures showing the female genitalia and a procedure called vaginoplasty which contravened the protocols of being a member of the Muslim Bloggers Alliance because MENJ has implicated his ‘girlfriend’s honor and reputation as a Muslimah by attributing to her certain words and expressions which are an act of serious fitnah and libel against her.
    http://mahaguru58.blogspot.com/2008/05/muslim-bloggers-alliance-media.html

  70. Astroboy Says:

    Quote:
    Another strange thing about this MENJ, he can’t even identify that my avatar is an orangutan which is the Malaysian national animal. He thought it was a short tailed macaque.

    That classifies him as an Orang Bodoh in my book.

    Quote:
    For a Malaysian, he is just like a Canadian not being able to identify a beaver! Laughing

    Embarassed
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iMhMQobqzPoJ:dev.faithfreedom.org/forum2/viewtopic.php%3Fp%3D94572%26sid%3Dac075ae189113a57f95efbf8b3bc1f7a+Mohd+Elfie+Nieshaem+Juferi+pornography&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=my&source=www.google.com.my

  71. menj Says:

    @Astroboy: Since you seem to be familiar with porn movies, I think you must be watching a lot of them yourself. So why don’t you get lost before you embarrass yourself even further?

    As for the lie made by Mahasial58, this was responded to here aeons ago:

    http://www.ibnjuferi.com/official-reaction-to-muslim-bloggers-alliance-media-statement/

    If you do not know the real story and only rely on old, outdated information, this makes you an ignorant in my book.

  72. menj Says:

    And the only person I know who is fond of repeating such lies ad nauseam is ShadowFox, who was reported by me to the police:

    http://www.ibnjuferi.com/police-report-lodged-against-shadowfox/

    I am suspecting that Astroboy@ShadowFox@anonymous coward is still suffering from some butt-hurt because his blog is now a police case. Too bad, pal.

  73. Astroboy Says:

    “I am suspecting that Astroboy@ShadowFox@anonymous coward is still suffering from some butt-hurt because his blog is now a police case. Too bad, pal.”

    Red anus menj, how many years are your polis investigating?
    Your police report is in the waste paper basket idiot.
    How`s that jap woman you whose nude pics you were watching? Has your wife learnt any tricks from her?

  74. Astroboy Says:

    “If you do not know the real story and only rely on old, outdated information, this makes you an ignorant in my book.”

    Ignorant or not does not matter. That walnut on the forehead is as cuckoo as you are. As long as you sodomise each other, I am happy. Time to point your backside in the air isn`t it.

  75. menj Says:

    There’s nothing wrong with having a green, blue or even a yellow anus, so if your intention was to insult I am not even offended in the least.

    So scared of using the “ShadowFox” handle that you have to resort using a cartoon character name now? You are a funny fella, ShadowFox. The new cartoon name handle fits you however.

  76. Astroboy Says:

    “I am suspecting that Astroboy@ShadowFox@anonymous coward is still suffering from some butt-hurt because his blog is now a police case.”

    I suspect the police were laughing at the way shadowfox tore up your anus. They must have laughed so much, they tore up your report as well.

  77. menj Says:

    As for your insulting the Muslim salaah, pointing our “backsides in the air”, as you call it, is better than jumping and singing songs in a so-called holy place.

  78. menj Says:

    Its really odd to see you referring to yourself in a third person, you need psychiatric help since your obsession with homosexuality is quite apparent. That is another trait of ShadowFox too, he has this thing about gays. So I do not think I am wrong when I say that Astroboy = ShadowFox.

  79. Astroboy Says:

    As for your insulting the Muslim salaah, pointing our “backsides in the air”, as you call it, is better than jumping and singing songs in a so-called holy place.
    __________________________

    Hahahaha I am not surprised. The way you go around buggering each other after “airy backsides”
    The fascination starts young ya.

  80. Astroboy Says:

    “Its really odd to see you referring to yourself in a third person, you need psychiatric help…”

    Stupid again and a sign of helplessness on your part dumbo. You are emasculated. A weakling, a poseur.
    As for the homosexuality bit, you can play victimhood all you want and project your fascination all you want but one thing for sure I ain`t Saiful or Anwar. That is restricted to the “airy backsides” – your types.
    hahahahaha

  81. Astroboy Says:

    “There’s nothing wrong with having a green, blue or even a yellow anus, so if your intention was to insult I am not even offended in the least.” – menj

    Look at the idiot.
    Oi bodoh, you got gangrene if it is “green, blue or even a yellow anus”.
    Go to the doctor, get it examined.
    They might find a “Shadow Fox” lurking there.
    ROTFL

  82. menj Says:

    Why don’t you reopen your “bytemuncher” blog and repost all these filth you are saying here. Let’s see whether you have the balls to do that and face a police investigation.

  83. Astroboy Says:

    Repost:

    “There’s nothing wrong with having a green, blue or even a yellow anus, so if your intention was to insult I am not even offended in the least.” – menj

    Look at the idiot.
    Oi bodoh, you got gangrene if it is “green, blue or even a yellow anus”.
    Go to the doctor, get it examined.
    They might find a “Shadow Fox” lurking there.
    ROTFL

  84. Astroboy Says:

    Why don’t you reopen your “bytemuncher” blog and repost all these filth you are saying here. Let’s see whether you have the balls to do that and face a police investigation.
    _________________________

    Mr. Scott Thong,

    Now you see what this menj taliban is all about.
    If you do not ban him he will be making a police report against this blog and try to shut it down. That is what as a “parasite” he is all about.

  85. sambal belacan Says:

    He`s got anus gangrene and wants to shut down blogs cos he can`t bog.

  86. menj Says:

    So now ShadowFox aka Astroboy aka sambal belacan has a split personality disorder. Still butthurt because your filthy low class blog is under the purview of the police?

  87. sambal belacan Says:

    He has got anus gangrene and wants to shut down blogs cos he can`t bog.

  88. menj Says:

    You already said that the first time around, goblok.

  89. sambal belacan Says:

    Sometimes some things have to be repeated, jadi……

    Menj has got anus gangrene and wants to shut down blogs cos he can`t bog.

  90. menj Says:

    make up your mind on whether you want to be a cartoon character or food paste.

  91. sambal belacan Says:

    Sometimes some things have to be repeated, jadi……..

    Menj has got anus gangrene and wants to shut down blogs cos he can`t bog.

  92. hahahahaha Says:

    I would rather have cartoon characters and food paste, than anus gangrene.

  93. hahahahaha Says:

    I would rather have cartoon characters and food paste, than anus gangrene..

  94. menj Says:

    I think Scott should ban you now since its obvious you are trolling here.

  95. hahahahaha Says:

    # Astroboy Says:
    April 1, 11 at 1:27 pm

    Why don’t you reopen your “bytemuncher” blog and repost all these filth you are saying here. Let’s see whether you have the balls to do that and face a police investigation.
    _________________________

    Mr. Scott Thong,

    Now you see what this menj taliban is all about.
    If you do not ban him he will be making a police report against this blog and try to shut it down. That is what as a “parasite” he is all about.
    ***************************
    # menj Says:
    April 1, 11 at 2:11 pm

    I think Scott should ban you now since its obvious you are trolling here.
    ***************************

    Oh dear now Scott has to make a choice between anus gangrene, cartoons and food paste.

  96. Ron Says:

    Scott says:

    “As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” – Romans 3:10-12

    Yet we read:

    Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away. — Genesis 5:23-24

    This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. — Genesis 6:9

    In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. — Job 1:1

    The word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its people and their animals, even if these three men—Noah, Daniel and Job—were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD. — Ezekiel 14:12-14

    In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly. — Luke 1:5-6

    Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. — James 2:21,23

    Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. — Genesis 15:6

    and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard) — 2 Peter 2:7-8 (This was the same Lot who got drunk and banged his daughters two nights in a row)

  97. Scott Thong Says:

    Man! What has been going on in not even a day I’m away?

  98. menj Says:

    Well the first thing you should do is ban the troll, unless if you want to see your posts being bombarded with profanities and childish insults.

  99. aiyoyo Says:

    But then we are left with anus gangrene and cartoon…..or food paste.

  100. aiyoyo Says:

    # menj Says:
    March 31, 11 at 3:22 pm

    Your blog has always been within my sights ever since the other neocon (Rajan Rishyakaran) kicked the bucket and booked a one-way ticket to Neraka al-Jahim.

  101. menj Says:

    You do realise that you are mentally insane, don’t you ShadowFox?

  102. ShadowFox Says:

    # menj Says:
    April 1, 11 at 3:35 pm

    You do realise that you are mentally insane, don’t you ShadowFox?

    Not as insane as you (must be your gangrened anus, sh*t`s gone to your head).

  103. ShadowFox Says:

    Not as insane as Menj (must be your gangrened anus, sh*t`s gone to your head).

  104. ShadowFox Says:

    Not as insane as Menj (must be your gangrened anus, faeces gone to your head).

  105. aiyoyo Says:

    A walk in the Black Forest for twins Jacob and Erin turns into an adventure through time when they meet Shadow, a red fox with an unusual set of talents. They are welcomed to his underground laboratory, Hora Cella, and witness the power of Nikola Tesla’s time travel device, the Wall of Light.

    On their first journey through the Wall of Light, they travel to Boston in 1775, to help Paul Revere and the Sons of Liberty spread the word that British Redcoats are on the march. Shadow has discovered seven gaps in the story of Paul Revere’s midnight ride. If those gaps are not filled, the American Revolution may never be fought, and liberty as we know it will cease to exist.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Fox

  106. hahahahaha Says:

    # menj Says:
    April 1, 11 at 3:35 pm

    You do realise that you are mentally insane, don’t you ShadowFox?
    ***************

    Phew!! Such brilliance.
    I wish someone could tell me of insanity that is not mental.

  107. Scott Thong Says:

    The hadith of the prostitute and a dog is a good example of what I am referring to. – menj

    Does this forgiveness equate to salvation, or just the annulment of a particular sin? As I recall, Mohammad asked for and received forgiveness several times.

  108. menj Says:

    “Does this forgiveness equate to salvation, or just the annulment of a particular sin?”

    It is as per the hadith says, total forgiveness on God’s Mercy alone.

    “As I recall, Mohammad asked for and received forgiveness several times.”

    The Prophet (P) asking for forgiveness from God does not in return mean he has “received” it, he is already assured of Paradise. It is simply you twisting and propagating a misconception through the prism of Christian ethics. Islam has a totally different standard and definition of what is “salvation”. Its not the same as the Christian understanding of the term.

  109. Scott Thong Says:

    I’m not in the habit of banning anyone, and I won’t be banning either of you two – it’s a real riot reading the back and forth!

  110. Scott Thong Says:

    It is as per the hadith says, total forgiveness on God’s Mercy alone. – menj

    I don’t get the ‘total’ part from the verse – mayhaps a poor translation?

    Or maybe giving water to thirsty dogs is so holy, that doing it even once outweighs several years of sleeping around with strange men?

    Islam has a totally different standard and definition of what is “salvation”. Its not the same as the Christian understanding of the term.

    Do explain the differences, then.

    In the meantime, I shall instead use the term ‘will go to heaven’ or similar.

  111. menj Says:

    “I don’t get the ‘total’ part from the verse – mayhaps a poor translation?”

    Its not my problem if your reading and comprehension is poor.

    “Do explain the differences, then.”

    The major difference is that in Islam, man is not born with sin and he is accountable for his own deeds and misdeeds. And God is totally at liberty to decide who goes to Paradise and who doesn’t. If God were to decide that every man and woman who ever worshipped Him go to Hell instead of Paradise, that will be perfectly within His Infinite Wisdom and no human being has the right to object, ever. God is not held out to ransom simply because some half-naked dude died at the cross and was erroneously perceived to be His “son”.

    And that’s another difference between Islam and Christianity….God has no kids in Islam and that does not detract from His Majesty one single iota.

  112. menj Says:

    And by the way, the hadith is not a “verse”, its a passage.

  113. Scott Thong Says:

    To return to an older topic…

    I am familiar with the sources of the Bible, as well as the arguments for and against its accuracy.

    But how about the Quran? What argument and evidence is there for the authenticity, accuracy and completeness of the modern day Quran compared to the one used at the time Mohammad was alive? Especially in light of Caliph Uthman’s sweeping and unilateral compilation, editing and possibly redaction?

  114. menj Says:

    “I am familiar with the sources of the Bible, as well as the arguments for and against its accuracy.”

    Then let’s see how you will deal with this, then.

    “But how about the Quran? What argument and evidence is there for the authenticity, accuracy and completeness of the modern day Quran compared to the one used at the time Mohammad was alive? Especially in light of Caliph Uthman’s sweeping and unilateral compilation, editing and possibly redaction?”

    Addressed here and here.

  115. Scott Thong Says:

    And by the way, the hadith is not a “verse”, its a passage.

    Ah yes, I have noticed that you are quite particular about the exact terms used.

  116. Scott Thong Says:

    Its not my problem if your reading and comprehension is poor.

    Well, I contend that the passage makes no mention of totality or absoluteness, and that a majority of laypersons reading that passage would not infer that it is speaking of ‘total’ forgiveness.

    If God were to decide that every man and woman who ever worshipped Him go to Hell instead of Paradise, that will be perfectly within His Infinite Wisdom and no human being has the right to object, ever. God is not held out to ransom simply because some half-naked dude died at the cross and was erroneously perceived to be His “son”.

    Similarly, if God were to decide that anyone who believes He has a Son Who died for our sins will go to heaven – and anyone who does not believe is destined for hell – that is also within His infinite wisdom. It works both ways.

    So of course God is not ‘held out to ransom’ – it is He Who suggested the swap in the first place.

    And besides the point – most likely Jesus would have been crucified fully naked, as it was fully within the Roman practise to humiliate the condemned as much as possible. But I’m sure you already knew that, yes?

    And that’s another difference between Islam and Christianity….God has no kids in Islam and that does not detract from His Majesty one single iota.

    Whereas in Christianity, God does have a one-and-only Son and that does not detract from His majesty – instead, it adds to it. Which is similar to the conclusion of this post in the first place.

  117. Simon Thong Says:

    1 menj – because some half-naked dude died at the cross and was erroneously perceived to be His “son”.

    You may not believe that the man who died on the cross was the real Jesus Christ but that doesn’t mean that you should be so disrespectful to his followers, Christians.

    You are extremely insulting to refer to Jesus Christ, which Christians worship with reverence, in such insulting terms. Fortunate for you that you live in a country where nothing can happen to you while, if anyone were to refer to your prophet in the same way, he would be offended and he would be detained under the ISA.

    Since you do not like having your acronymn treated crudely, why do you treat God the son of Christians in this way. Aren’t you a hypocrite?

    2 I have gone to the reference of your work on the sources of the Bible, as well as the arguments for and against its accuracy. Not impressed. It makes not even a dent on the authencity of our historical documents.

  118. Simon Thong Says:

    Here’s something for you to read and mull over, menj.
    Agnitio Prudentia
    Reliability of Luke as a Historian (Proof of the Historicity of Jesus Christ).?
    Let’s consider the following quotes from Sir William Ramsay, one of the greatest archaeologists in history. In his life he did extensive archaeological work in Asia Minor (modern Turkey). Entering into this work he was an unbeliever who was thoroughly convinced that the book of Acts was the product of the 2nd Century (a theory taught in the German schools of higher criticism). As a matter of fact, one of his goals was to prove that the history given by Luke was inaccurate. However, his beliefs were drastically changed as his archaeological finds proved that the book of Acts was accurate to the minutest detail. As a result Sir William Ramsay became a Christian. He writes:

    I may fairly claim to have entered on this investigation without prejudice in favour of the conclusion which I shall now seek to justify to the reader. On the contrary, I began with a mind unfavorable to it…but more recently I found myself brought into contact with the Book of Acts as an authority for the topography, antiquities, and society of Asia Minor. It was gradually borne upon me that in various details the narrative showed marvelous truth. In fact, beginning with a fixed idea that the work was essentially a second century composition, and never relying on its evidence as trustworthy for first century conditions, I gradually came to find it a useful ally in some obscure and difficult investigations [14]

    Luke is a historian of first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy…this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians. [15]

    In the 19th century, Acts 14:6 was consistently presented as an example of a historical error in the book of Acts. The reason for this is that the verse portrays Paul and Barnabas as entering the province of Lycaonia when they came to Lystra and Derbe. The problem with this was that Iconium, the city they had fled from, was also in Lycaonia. However, this is one of the passages Sir William Ramsay checked for the historical accuracy of Acts. His archaeological finds showed that Iconium was made a part of Phrygia only during A.D. 37-72, both before and after this it was part of Lycaonia. [17] Thus we find that Luke’s statement was written in the one and only period of history that it would be accurate!

    At one time, Luke was thought to be totally inaccurate regarding details surrounding the birth of Christ in Luke 2:1-3. The critics once argued that there was no census, Quirinius was governor of Syria at a later date and that citizens did not have to return to their homelands. However, archaeology has shown that the Romans did hold censuses every 14 years. Furthermore, it is now known that Quirinius was likely governor of Syria twice, once around 6 A.D., but the other around 7 B.C., which would correspond to the time of the census of Luke 2. Finally, a papyrus was found in Egypt which gives directions for a Roman census and orders all people away from home to return in preparation of the coming census. [18]

    In 1962, two Italian archaeologists dug up a Latin inscription in the town of Caesarea. It read “Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judea, has presented the Tiberium to the Caesareans.” [19]

    This article is archived in the University of Clemson’s online archives. It was submitted by the Spurgeon Foundation of Clemson.

    http://www.clemson.edu/spurgeon/books/ap…

  119. Scott Thong Says:

    Hmm, think that qualifies Ramsey to be included in Christianity – The Faith of Famously Intellectual, Logical, Reasonable Thinkers?

  120. Simon Thong Says:

    menj – What you think about my motivations for studying and researching on Christianity is irrelevant.

    On the contrary, it is relevant. In your case, it is everything. You did not study Christianity to learn. You studied it to find ammunition to attack Christianity. While I co-exist with followers of Islam and show the Prophet respect, and learn the ways of Islim so as not to offend Muslims, what do you do? You insult my God.

    I do not need to guess. Your motivations are clear, to insult and demean and destroy.

    “Sez who?” is what sociology asks when statements are made. If the person has an axe to grind, what he says is not to be trusted. You, menj, has a HUGE axe to grind.

    Are you paid by any missionary organization, by the way?

  121. Scott Thong Says:

    “But how about the Quran? What argument and evidence is there for the authenticity, accuracy and completeness of the modern day Quran

    TLDR, I’ll read through some day, but any chance of a cliff notes summarization?

  122. Simon Thong Says:

    menj refers Scott to a post in Bismika Allahuma that relies on the works of textual criticism among some Christian scholars to challenge the authenticity and reliability of the Bible.

    He obviously accepts the reliability of these textual critics enough to use their work against Christianity. They support his case, textual critics.

    Let me return the favour:

    “The Sana’a manuscripts, found in Yemen in 1972, are considered by some to be the oldest existent version of the Qur’an.

    More than 15,000 sheets of the Yemeni Qur’ans have been flattened, cleaned, treated, sorted, and assembled. They await further examination in Yemen’s House of Manuscripts. Yet that is something Islamic authorities seem unwilling to allow. Puin suggests, “They want to keep this thing low-profile, as we do, although for different reasons.

    Puin, and his colleague Graf von Bothmer, an Islamic historian, have published short essays on what they discovered. Von Bothmer, however, in 1997 shot 35,000 microfilm pictures of the fragments, and has brought the pictures back to Germany. The texts will soon be[clarification needed] scrutinized and the findings published freely. Puin wrote: “So many Muslims have this belief that everything between the two covers of the Qur’an is Allah’s unaltered word. They like to quote the textual work that shows that the Bible has a history and did not fall straight out of the sky, but until now the Qur’an has been out of this discussion. The only way to break through this wall is to prove that the Qur’an has a history too. The Sana’a fragments will help us accomplish this.

    In a 1999 Atlantic Monthly article, Gerd Puin is quoted as saying that:

    My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on.

    How do you like that, menj? Boot on the other foot. The tables are turned.

  123. Simon Thong Says:

    Well well well, look at what we have here! Read this:

    Bismika Allahuma
    Muslim responses to Anti-Islamic polemics
    The Reliability of Luke as Historian
    Published on: Sunday 14 Mar, 2010
    By: administrator
    Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi wowee, its menj!!!

    Read more:
    The purpose of this website is to facilitate Muslim responses to the various mendacious polemics and distortions of Islam by the Christian missionaries and their anti-Islamic allies that are being spread over the Internet. Established since 1999, we eventually moved to our own domain in 2002 and have not looked back since. Our aim is to become the premier source of information by Muslims to counter all forms of anti-Islamic propaganda by the Christian missionaries and their allies over the Internet, insha’allah.

    The site is being run by a team of dedicated individuals committed to this goal of Islamic propagation. The primary founders of this site are from Malaysia. Other team members hail from the United Kingdom, United States, Kosovo, Norway, Egypt and the Netherlands.

    With your help, our pledge is to effectively stiffle and destroy their lies about Islam on the WWW within the next ten years, insha’allah. Contact us.

    © 2009 Ismail Faruqi Online. All Rights Reserved Unless Otherwise Noted.

    Read this also:
    For Muslims

    BISMIKA ALLAHUMA (www.bismikaallahuma.org) aims to be the premier source of information by Muslims to not only counter anti-Islamic propaganda by the Christian missionaries and their allies over the Internet, but also keen on presenting Islam in its true picture as well as fostering cooperation and knowledge with other Islamic websites which has similar objectives to ours. If you have a valuable article in your possession or have a written piece that meets the standards and objectives of this website, please send it to us, we are interested in publishing it. With your help, our pledge is to effectively stifle and destroy their lies about Islam on the WWW within the next ten years, insha’allah.

    Donations

    Much of the work on this site is done by a small team of volunteers but nothing comes completely free. So there are also costs involved and if we were to get a steady amount of funds we could greatly expand our service, insha’allah. Therefore, we hope that the Muslim ummah, no matter where they are, will be able to donate the funds badly needed to make BISMIKA ALLAHUMA a great success. This is because without the donation support from Muslims, we would have difficulty in our operations. See the fatawa of Sheikh Faisal al-Mawlawi [in .pdf format, requires Adobe Acrobat Reader] which classifies the existence of da’wah websites such as ours as a form of jihad fi sabilillah.

    Estimated cost needed: About US$300.00 to US$500.00 per year
    Current finances: Statement available upon request

    Your donations would be used for:

    * Cost of purchasing/renewing domain names and web space.
    * Cost of maintaining the website and anything related (including PC maintainence and purchase of new hardware or software).
    * Payment of bills related to BISMIKA ALLAHUMA activities.
    * Cost of promotion and advertisements (car stickers, posters, etc.)
    * Purchasing books/references related to BISMIKA ALLAHUMA and its activities online.

    Sending Donations

    There are various methods of donating for the above causes:

    1. Sending cheque or bank draft (all countries), money order or postal order (Malaysia and Great Britian only).

    These may be drawn (under the name: Mohd Elfie Nieshaem bin Juferi) and sent to

    BISMIKA ALLAHUMA
    c/o Elfreen Agency,
    SSR8, Kawasan Rehat Lebuhraya Cheras-Kajang,
    43000 Kajang, Selangor
    Malaysia.

    2. By depositing directly to our bank account.

    WAHAHA. You’re a missionary after all, menj, and soliciting funds. The cheques, etc, could be drawn under your name!

    So does it matter what your motivations are? Yes, it matters. Absolutely.

  124. menj Says:

    Let me deal with Simon Thong first before I deal with the second Thong:

    “On the contrary, it is relevant. In your case, it is everything. You did not study Christianity to learn. You studied it to find ammunition to attack Christianity.”

    Like I said, I am hardly concerned about what you think my motivations are. If I had to stop to think about what people think, I would never have gone onto this path in the first place. I genuinely like to study religions, and most especially Judeo-Christianity. It enhances my own faith.

    2. “The Sana’a manuscripts, found in Yemen in 1972, are considered by some to be the oldest existent version of the Qur’an.”

    You are repeating an old polemic which has been dealt with, such as here. To sum it up, it is a non-issue.

    3. “How do you like that, menj? Boot on the other foot. The tables are turned.”

    Quite presumptuous for you to jump the gun, isn’t it? Let’s see what you commented about me and my motivations for studying Christianity earlier:

    “You did not study Christianity to learn. You studied it to find ammunition to attack Christianity.”

    Can we say the same for you and the reason that you are bring up the issue of the Sana’a MSS all of a sudden (probably you think that this was unknown to me, but be assured that it is not) is because you think you have a trump card to discredit the Qur’an’s authenticity? You have done no such thing. You can repeat the stories from Wansbrough, Cook & Crone and “Luxenberg” and it will still do no such thing.

    It sure sucks being you.

    4. “WAHAHA. You’re a missionary after all, menj, and soliciting funds. The cheques, etc, could be drawn under your name!”

    I am not a “missionary” in the sense that this is not a full-time job and despite the appeal for donations, all the funding to run the site has been out of my own money. Bismika Allahuma is currently fully self-funded, we haven’t reached a stage where we rely totally on donations.

  125. menj Says:

    6.”You may not believe that the man who died on the cross was the real Jesus Christ”

    Of course I don’t. That’s a very important tenet of Islam. If I did then I would cease being a Muslim.

    7. “but that doesn’t mean that you should be so disrespectful to his followers, Christians.”

    I don’t believe that you are his true followers at all. Refer: Luke 13.22-27, Quran 5:116.

    8. “You are extremely insulting to refer to Jesus Christ, which Christians worship with reverence, in such insulting terms. ”

    I can say whatever I want, wherever I want and whenever I want about the Roman criminal who died on the crucifix, since that person obviously cannot be Jesus, upon whom be peace.

    9. “Since you do not like having your acronymn treated crudely, why do you treat God the son of Christians in this way. Aren’t you a hypocrite?”

    Since I don’t believe that the person who was executed like the common criminal he is to be Jesus, upon whom be peace, why should I be bounded by your rules and stoop so low as to revere and worship the half-naked man?

    10. “I have gone to the reference of your work on the sources of the Bible, as well as the arguments for and against its accuracy. Not impressed.”

    Again, not bothered. That is subject to one’s own biasness.

  126. Simon Thong Says:

    My reply:
    1 You have an axe to grind, and by pretending to be one who ‘ genuinely like to study religions, and most especially Judeo-Christianity’, you come as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Your credibility is questionable. It doesn’t matter whether you care if we know your motivations or not. WE know. WE care. Which means that almost everything you write here is suspect. For me, it also means that what was levelled against you in other post has greater credibility than your refutations. Thanks to hahahahaha, Astroboy, sambal belacan and aiyoyo for their links! We see WHAT you are.

    “It is no secret that this blogger MENJ has been exceedingly open about his dislike and intolerance for the ‘absurd beliefs’ of other religions.”

    “This blogger has chosen to publicly announce that it is the intention and hope of the website (that literally is translated to ‘In Your Name, Allah’): to ‘expose’ and ‘destroy’ another religion.”

    “The issue is that there is a certain intellectual human being who so happens to openly profess his passion for Allah and expressed the depth of that passion by inciting hate towards another religion, on a respected Islamic website that is meant to educate and reverse the effects of misinformation.”

    6-9 I believe what is said about you, that you are a hate-monger. Since you treat Jesus Christ with such disrespect, you are not a person but a piece of ****, ****menj-****. You are not a true follower of Islam but a wicked fool.

    2 You can’t just brush it off as a non-issue. It is a HUGE issue to us Christians. And you miss the point, which is that the dating is not really as important as the fact that there are VARIANTS: “kind of cocktail of texts”; “there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate”…

    Of course you would miss the point, blind cretin that you are.

    6.”You may not believe that the man who died on the cross was the real Jesus Christ”

    Menj – Of course I don’t. That’s a very important tenet of Islam. If I did then I would cease being a Muslim.

    Are you really a muslim? Your own muslim bloggers disowned you. There is only one kind of muslim, a good muslim. Bad muslims are by definition not muslim, and you’re a bad muslim.

    3 I went to the Sana’a MSS to show you that two can play the same game. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

    10 Again, not bothered. That is subject to one’s own biasness.

    That’s right, and you’re so biased that even your underwear reeks of it. Don’t claim to have studied Christianity. Be honest, say, “I, ****mmenj-**** have studied anti-Christianity to destroy Christianity.”

    But is there any honesty in you? Yes, a bit, but only when you are soliciting funds from others for your own personal agenda under the guise of furthering the cause of noble Islam. (Btw, did you make a lot of money from auctioning off those sites?”

    Incidentally, you’re repeating very old polemics when you argue against the historicity of Luke and the authenticity of the Bible.

    Any more revelations about ****menj-**** from you lot, Astroboy and friends? Thanks again for unveiling this devil in disguise.

  127. menj Says:

    Hmm…not sure how I missed this. I will respond accordingly.

    “You have an axe to grind, and by pretending to be one who ‘ genuinely like to study religions, and most especially Judeo-Christianity’,”

    I do like to study religions, most especially Judeo-Christianity. I have a library of interesting Judeo-Christianity stuff which, I assure you, you won’t find in many Muslim homes.

    “you come as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Your credibility is questionable.”

    Not my problem what you think of me, isn’t it? I am not bothered by your barbs of ignorance.

    “Thanks to hahahahaha, Astroboy, sambal belacan and aiyoyo for their links! We see WHAT you are.”

    LOL, they are actually the same person writing the same lies about me. Funny that you think they are four different people. Either you actually accept the word of a demented schizo, or you are a liar not interested in finding the real story. Pick one.
    “I believe what is said about you, that you are a hate-monger. Since you treat Jesus Christ with such disrespect, you are not a person but a piece of ****, ****menj-****. You are not a true follower of Islam but a wicked fool.”

    I have never treated Christ Jesus, peace be upon him, and his blessed mother Mary, upon whom be peace, with any disrespect or mocking tone as you are accusing me of. That makes you a liar.

    “Are you really a muslim? Your own muslim bloggers disowned you.”

    LOL. If you are talking about the so-called “Muslim Bloggers Alliance” which has an army of…let me see, one?….this shows how low you are willing to discredit me and my writings. In logical fallacy definition, we call this “poisoning the well”, a not uncommon tactic among desperate Christian missionaries.

    “There is only one kind of muslim, a good muslim. Bad muslims are by definition not muslim, and you’re a bad muslim.”

    Hahahahahahaha…..who are you to tell me who is a “bad Muslim” or a “good one”. Who died and elected you to be the judge of who is a good or a bad Muslim?”

    I went to the Sana’a MSS to show you that two can play the same game. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.”

    Sana’a MSS polemic is nothing new and I have already shown earlier that this has been refuted. Over to you regarding the textual variants of the Bible MSS. All I see are hot air and yet no attempts to justify the reason behind the various textual variants in the Bible.

    You are child’s play for any thinking Muslim who has a basic understanding of Biblical textual history. Quite below my level, too bad.

  128. menj Says:

    Going back to addressing the (ab)use of One Piece to demonstrate Christian theology:

    “King Neptune’s example is immediately relatable to a Christian.”

    From the cartoon illustration, I am made to understand that the cartoon character King Neptune jumped in front of his followers to shield them from attack, while his opponent did the opposite. Then Scott makes the proposition that Christianity is a religion of “selfless concern, sympathy and self-sacrifice” while claiming that in Islam this is not possible because God “will not stoop down to the level of his subjects” (hence implying that Christianity is a loving religion while Islam is the opposite).

    That proposition, in my opinion, is WRONG and based on a misunderstanding on Scott’s part who has this tendency to portray Islam as a legalistic religion and God as unmerciful. In the Muslim mind, were such a situation similar to King Neptune’s were to arise, there would be no need for God to “jump in front of an opponent to sacrifice” Himself. In fact, He doesn’t need to do a thing to Save his servants. All it takes is kun faya kun, “Be, and it is!”

  129. Scott Thong Says:

    If that’s the way you interpret my post.

    I don’t intend to imply that either perspective is objectively superior over the other – it is only MHO that the Christian one is preferable.

    You’ve proven my illustration accurate – Hodi finds it incredulous that a king would do such a thing, just as you as a Muslim find it laughable that God would need to use the Christ to save humanity.

    Here’s the preceding (ab)use of One Piece btw: Whitebeard’s Prodigal Son

  130. menj Says:

    “Hodi finds it incredulous that a king would do such a thing,”

    Not sure why you are using manga (made a mistake earlier by calling it “cartoon”) characters to illustrate theology, I actually find it incredulous that you had to use something like that to explain Christian ethics.

    “just as you as a Muslim find it laughable that God would need to use the Christ to save humanity.”

    I would argue that we do in a certain sense find it “laughable”, but not because God in Islam is what you are implying and certainly not because God would not “bring Himself down to the level of His servants”. Its not however, the way how the manga Hodi is characterised and its certainly not the way how you have characterised it.

  131. Scott Thong Says:

    Not sure why you are using manga (made a mistake earlier by calling it “cartoon”) characters to illustrate theology, I actually find it incredulous that you had to use something like that to explain Christian ethics. – menj

    I think manga is basically a form of cartooning.

    I suppose I could reason that just as Jesus used the culture of times to explain His message (e.g. parables about farming), I am using the culture of my time (e.g. pop culture).

    Or ponder on the fact that One Piece seems to have a couple of instances of portraying Christian-ish concepts in a positive way – Neptune’s self-sacrifice, Whitebeard’s forgiveness for Squad, Kuma’s carrying a Bible and working for the good side (in fact, I will probably do up a post if I can find one or two more examples).

    But it’s probably just because I like One Piece.

    Its not however, the way how the manga Hodi is characterised and its certainly not the way how you have characterised it.

    Hodi says such-and-such an act does not befit a king.

    You say such-and-such an act does not befit an Almighty God.

    Close enough to me.

    Maybe you’d object less if it were a protagonist chiding Neptune for his attitude?

  132. menj Says:

    “I think manga is basically a form of cartooning.”

    A manga is a manga, a cartoon is a cartoon. Medium may be similar but the styles are different. Its like saying kung-fu is the same as taek-wondo, if you get what I mean.

    “I suppose I could reason that just as Jesus used the culture of times to explain His message (e.g. parables about farming), I am using the culture of my time (e.g. pop culture).”

    Maybe I shouldn’t be so surprised, since you are a Christian missionary attached with the JB Baptist Church after all, and its not unknown to me that missionaries do use these sort of tactics to illustrate their theology to the intended victims.

    “But it’s probably just because I like One Piece.”

    I never read or watch One Piece. But who knows, the next thing you are probably going to do is to (ab)use the Naruto and Bleach manga.

    “Maybe you’d object less if it were a protagonist chiding Neptune for his attitude?”

    I personally object to the idea of using an unrelated medium (in this case, manga) which has nothing to do with religion to “illustrate” a doctrine, as I feel that something like that may only appeal to some on an emotional level but not on a rational level, which is what the Qur’an has always stood for (cf. Qur’an, 10:24).

    Going back to your characterisation, however, its quite hard for me to (ab)use the characters in that manga page above in order to properly define or defend the Islamic position. I prefer the old-school way of explaining it through words and proper references, not pop-culture.

  133. menj Says:

    Stepped out of the shower and I just realised why I find it deeply objectionable to characterise God in this way: what the characters King Neptune and Hodi represent are very human reactions in a situation like this, i.e hero versus villian. God Almighty is far beyond such characterisations of such human behaviour. Even if you were to characterise the Islamic version of God as the protagonist King Neptune, it will still be objectionable because what one would expect of human behaviour is not applicable to God. In short, neither the characters King Neptune NOR the character Hodi accurately defines God in the Muslim mind, because you have limited God to only two choices. God Almighty can Save His servants beyond what is conceivable by the human mind.

    In other words, the God of Christianity (according to you) is limited only by human behaviourial responses as perceived by you, as that god can only do one thing or the other. The God of Islam is not bound by the limits of the human mind or behaviour. All it takes is: “Kun faya kun”, Be and it is!

  134. Scott Thong Says:

    Stepped out of the shower and I just realised why I find it deeply objectionable to characterise God in this way: what the characters King Neptune and Hodi represent are very human reactions in a situation like this, i.e hero versus villian. God Almighty is far beyond such characterisations of such human behaviour. – menj

    That also explains why I don’t see any problem with it. The JudeoChristian understanding of God is that He is relatable to mere humans.

    Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. – Genesis 3:8 (implying that Adam and Eve used to walk in the garden with God before sinning)

    I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. – John 15:15

    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. – John 17:3

    “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. – James 2:23

    That we have emotions is based on our being made in God’s image – God in the Bible has emotions including anger, sadness and compassion. (And yes, that we have parent/child relationships is also based on the Father/Son relationship in the Trinity.)

    That is one school of thought regarding the different usage of LORD (YHWH), Lord (Adonai) and God (Elohim) in the Bible.

    YHWH is the most holy actual name (proper noun) of God, but is also used when referring to the special personal relationship/friendship between God and humans. Elohim meanwhile is used to refer to God as the Almighty over all creation a more generalized way. This dichotomy can be seen clearly between Genesis 1 & 2 (LORD God / YHWH Elohim) and Genesis 3 (the serpent who is a stranger only refers to God / Elohim).

    But a friendship with God is an unthinkable/outrageous concept to Islam I suppose. Values Dissonance.

    because you have limited God to only two choices. God Almighty can Save His servants beyond what is conceivable by the human mind.

    That’s funny, because one response to the atheist question “Why did God have to send Jesus to die for our sins, why not just save everyone?” or “Why is there an eternal punishment in hell?” is that we cannot fathom the ways of God – it just is that way.

    I think you misunderstand our position, and have reversed the cause and effect. We don’t argue ‘God must save us through Christ because this is the only way that makes sense by our human comprehension’. Honestly, it defies human understanding. Rather, the reason we believe that God saves us through Christ is simply because that is what the Bible states. We then try to make the most sense of it as possible.

    It would be much easier if we could believe ‘Everyone good will go to heaven’ – so much less flak from other religions. Similarly, we’d have much less trouble with liberal humanists if only we could believe that homosexuality is good, abortion is good, etc. But we don’t believe those things, simply because that is what the Bible states.

    So we are actually similar to you in that the God of Christianity is not bound by the limits of the human mind or behaviour. However, He has stated via the Bible the way He plans to get things done. And who are we to argue otherwise? If God wants to save us through Christ or through a divine lottery or through a thousand reincarnations – be and it is! it’s God’s pregorative.

    In fact, the same argument can be turned around to point at Islam. Why doesn’t Allah just purify people and let them into heaven? Why bother with Islam or the Five Pillars or repentance or good deeds? After all, as you said, all it takes is: “Kun faya kun”, Be and it is!

    The answer to that would likely be, because that is the way it is, simple as that. The same response I just gave you on why YHWH works salvation through the Christ. So we are in fact on the same level footing here.

  135. Scott Thong Says:

    I personally object to the idea of using an unrelated medium (in this case, manga) which has nothing to do with religion to “illustrate” a doctrine, . – menj

    One man’s meat, I suppose:

    Manga Bible series

    The Manga Bible: From Genesis to Revelation

    The 99 (Muslim)

    Power Mark

    Hand of the Morningstar

    This is not to mention the propagation of Christian messages and values through films, Western style cartoons, fiction novels, fantasy novels, even video games.

    As Paul said:

    I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some – 1st Corinthians 9:22

    Meaning we should use every means and medium possible to reach others with the Gospel.

    Thus the modern Christian attitude towards secular culture and entertainment is to absorb, redeem and apply it. That is why our worship music is not just limited to the 1st-century Middle Eastern style (although there are songs with that kind of flavor), but instead there is Christian rock, Christian jazz, Christian R&B, even Christian disco/funk. After all, what is the cross but a redeemed symbol formerly associated with the worst tortures of Roman brutality?

    I suppose it is different for Islam, where different cultures and styles are negated in order to adopt the Islamic/Arabic norms – whether it is music or dress styles or customs. Otherwise, Yusuf Ali would have still been singing Cat Stevens style, just with Islamic themed lyrics, instead of dropping off the music scene.

    Values Dissonance again.

    as I feel that something like that may only appeal to some on an emotional level but not on a rational level, which is what the Qur’an has always stood for (cf. Qur’an, 10:24)

    True, if my post has any argument to it, it would be merely an appeal to emotion.

    This is not to say that we are not supposed to appeal to the rationale though:

    Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind – Luke 10:27

    Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. – 1st Peter 3:15

    Quite a number of conversions came about simply because the heart was touched and the conscience stirred, not because of any logical conclusion.

    But again, not that there aren’t conversions of the mind:

    Christianity – The Faith of Famously Intellectual, Logical, Reasonable Thinkers

  136. SIMON THONG is blogging as simonthong | simonthongwh Says:

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  137. Soufian Says:

    hey guys i just read a few comments of u and i just want to say some things! First…im muslim! i love my religion and in my eyes its the true religion. I respect other people who have another religion! And every other ordinary muslim does that too. i have christian friends and i would never think about killing them for peace. Those who do that, killing in allahs name, arent muslim, they are just ordinary killer! Suicide and killing other people are forbidden, because only God can give life and take it away. Please stop taking the anti-islamic propaganda in the media! seriously! we arent like that and those who kill people arent worth to be called muslims. i live in germany and since the last 2 years i feel the hatred against muslims rising! they start talking about intergration of foreigner(but not for polish, russian etc. only muslim people) Even my classmates tell me that i am a well integrated foreigner…WTF Integrated..i live here since i were born how the f*ck should i integrate into something that i already been integrated since my birth! They all say the islam is violent…only because there are some violent words in the holy quran that they interprated wrong…in your holy book the bible are also violent verses but noone cares about that because we are the bad guys…i think i talked to much!

    So if u are all true believers whether muslim or christian start respect the one next to you! we are all humans we all have the same rights and are all gods creation!

  138. Scott Thong Says:

    Thanks for sharing, Soufian.

    I think we can agree that the problem is really caused by self-proclaimed Muslims who commit violent acts, thus giving a bad name to Islam.

    Rather than complaining about ‘Islamophobia’ or trying to convince nonMuslims how peaceful Islam really is, I think the most effective goal should be to convince the violence-users!

    Just like with Anders Breivik, who committed his killings and justified himself that it was the ‘Christian’ thing to do. Christians immediately rebuked and debunked his claims.

    How often do you hear peaceloving Muslims scolding the violent extremists, rather than scolding the general public for ‘anti-islamic propaganda’.

    What do you think?

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