First Quarter 2011: Signs of the End Times Checklist


The signs of the End Times are described in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Daniel 10, 11 and 12, and various parts of Revelation and Old Testament prophets.

Although people throughout history have believed that so-and-so happenings mean that the End Times are upon us, recent events have piqued my curiosity regarding this subject.

This is not really a serious attempt to predict when we’re all doomed / gonna be raptured, but here goes:

————————————-

Earthquakes

There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. – Matthew 24:7-8

Earthquakes have been extra plenty in recent months.

The first, big one in Japan this year was tied to…

————————————-

Roaring and tossing sea

On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea – Luke 21:25

Tsunami!

Which caused…

————————————-

Fear and signs from heaven

There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven. – Luke 21:11

Someone had suggested global warming as the ‘fearful events and great signs from heaven’, which is unfounded since global warming is unfactual. Even so, it still has the fear, whether rational or not.

Anyway, running on the same concept, the Fukushima reactors problem (thanks to the earthquake shutting down outside power and the tsunami shutting down the backup generators) has led to radiation being found everywhere around.

For a while there was a fear that a radioactive plume would float over mainland USA, which though now disproven, still counts – as only the fear is needed.

——————————–

Famines

There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. – Matthew 24:7-8

Famine has always been a looming fear due to ‘overpopulation’ (which has taken its own sweet time to come to pass, sorry Mathusians). However, green idiocy in the form of food-based biofuels which caused food price spikes and riots in 2008 certainly doesn’t help.

And hey, if Japan-sourced food being banned can tie this is to the earthquakes again, why not?

————————————-

Wars & rumours of wars

You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. – Matthew 24:6-7

The Middle East at present. Although wars are always happening throughout human civilization, it’s especially poignant because the Arab and African states are currently either already in civil war (e.g. Libya), or have a good chance to end up in revolution (e.g. Bahrain, Saudi Arabia). Hence the ‘rumours’ part is very strong.

Additionally, Biblical prophecy mostly focuses on Israel and her neighboring nations, i.e. the Arab states.

This unrest may likely lead to…

————————————-

Nations attack Israel

Too many passages to list, but for an example, see this slightly outdated page and just one from Jesus:

When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. – Luke 21:20

Once the abovementioned revolutions are through, most likely the government will either be Islamist or else be friendly/non-hostile towards Islamists. Cases in point: Egypt, Ivory Coast.

Another:

Israel fears that Islamic militants who have joined the rebel ranks in trying to oust President Bashar Assad will turn their guns toward Israel if they topple the Syrian leader.

These states, whose former governments were wisely cowed by Israel’s military superiority, will either wage proxy war (e.g. support terrorist actions like this) or outright war on Israel (as they have already declared and seem to be trying to start).

This will happened either immediately (ref the preceding link above) or when the hopeless lack of administrative skill and leadership cause the regimes to fail epicly, whereupon they will go the usual “It’s the Jews’ fault!!!” route and use them as a bogeyman to deflect public anger outwards.

It might even be due to UN involvement siding against Israel… Especially since Obama is the US President least supportive towards Israel ever, and thus will not be likely to side Israel in the UN or veto measures against them.

When this happens, Israel will stand alone due to the UN’s bias and America’s non-involvement (see next point). This is especially if Obama is still President at that time… He has a well known and overt anti-Israel streak and won’t be assisting Israel anytime soon. See also next point.

UPDATE OCT 2015: Obama gets even more pushed around by Putin while the latter stakes his iron-fisted claim on the Middle East.

UPDATE MAY 2011: Further to Obama’s fervent demands that Israel return to the 1967 borders (while by contrast hoping only vague wishes at the Palestinians), this would split Jerusalem back into East and West halves (despite him promising not to do just that – but hey, it’s classic Obama), with the West half under Israeli control…

A day of the LORD is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls. I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. – Zechariah 14:1-3

And on a related note, I associate this attack that signals the coming of the 7 years of the tribulation with that scene in Left Behind: The Movie.

Meanwhile, East Asian nations like China and India will likely side with the Arabs over Israel for the sake of expediency.

Another sign that points to the End Times coming soon is John’s description of ‘locusts and horses‘ of war in Revelation 9:

And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.

The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

Pretty weird sounding, like some chimeras out of Greek mythology. But a pretty accurate rendering of the below by a 1st-Century person seeing them in action:

And as I said, this points to a pretty close coming of the End Times… Combat vehicles of the future may not fit the description the way that modern and choppers and tanks do.

—————————–

Russia (Gog & Magog) is mentioned in prophecy, but America is absent

This is odd, because if America is the world’s foremost power and a close ally of Israel, surely it will take part in the End Times?

I’ve read a post about how as Iran heads towards nukes, and American under Obama is weak-kneed about stopping them – and completely unfeared these days as its deteriorating credibility crumbles further under John Kerry and vanishes all together as Obama prattles onRussia is once again the patron and strong horse that the Arab states look to for maintaining stability in the region. See an example here.

From Tablet Mag:

All of the administration’s Middle East policies pointed to the same thing: America wants out of the Middle East… If the administration’s press surrogates, Washington insiders, and the Europeans think the American commander-in-chief pulled off a diplomatic masterstroke when he signed on to the Russian initiative to get Bashar al-Assad to relinquish his chemical weapons arsenal, this is simply not how it looks in the Middle East. From that perspective, Obama is a bluffer. And a guy who won’t back up his own words with actions is not likely to back up his allies with actions when the going gets tough

America is not in prophecy simply because they shirk from taking part in it. Well, unless America is the beast as some conjecture!

UPDATE: With the USA now no longer reliant on Arab oil, perhaps they have no interest left in the region? And the oil price crash certainly would be driver causing oil-exporters to externalize discontent!

Btw, if everyone is so up in arms about ending the use of nuclear energy ref: Fukushima, why is there no objection to Iran’s pursuit of allegedly peaceful nuclear power? As this DEBKAfile report tipped by wits0 warns, and as cartoon by Michael Ramirez points out:

Or look at how US allies are not bothering to inform Obama before they launch airstrikes!

———————————–

Babylon as a player

There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. The name written on her forehead was a mystery: babylon the great the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth. I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. – Revelation 17:3-6

Babylon is rich and powerful in the End Times. While it can be interpreted symbolically (wealth, power, corruption), from 1990-2010 who would have thought that Iraq would amount to anything?

———————————–

Oil in Israel

About Asher he said: “Most blessed of sons is Asher; let him be favored by his brothers, and let him bathe his feet in oil. – Deuteronomy 33:24

Asher’s food will be rich; he will provide delicacies fit for a king. – Genesis 49:20

An interesting addition… It’s often been joked that of all the Middle East, God managed to give Israel the only part without oil to be the Promised Land!

But recently, tipped through SMS that my mother-in-law received…

From Oil in Israel:

And look which of the tribes was allotted that coastal region, from Israel-a-history-of.com:

Here’s IsraelPrayer.com another site that thinks there is a link.

And look at this ‘coincidence’ too (tipped by wits0):

The red stars represent oil shale deposits, which as you can see are scattered across sovereign Israel and Jordan. None were detected in the West Bank or Gaza.

That’s as much oil as Saudi Arabia’s proven reserves.

———————————-

Gospel preached to whole world

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. – Matthew 24:14

Apart from the Bible already being translated into thousands of languages already, there is a school of thought that looks at the centre of strong Christianity over the centuries. From Israel it has continually moved westwards – to Turkey, to Greece, to Rome, to Germany, to England, to America, and now in the process of moving to China. Which leaves maybe a few more steps (perhaps India?) and back to Israel to complete the circle.

————————

Blood Moons

Modern events seem to involve Israel every Jubilee year, and when coupled with multiple-times-a-year blood moons… 2014-2015: A Tetrad of Four Blood Moons, all on Jewish Feast Days and in the Shemitah Year a once in a two millennial event!

————————

Persecution of Christians

You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. Everyone will hate you because of me. – Luke 21:16-17

Just head over to Barnabas Fund – hope and aid for the persecuted church and check out the News for the latest atrocities being carried out against Christians, simply because they are Christians and refuse to denounce Christ.

Just a few examples: Nigeria; the same Ivory Coast link as earlier; and of course, Egypt (this one is really ironic on the ‘family turning on family’ part), continued and continued.

So I highly encourage you to allocate some of your tithe to Barnabas Fund donations to help those believers who don’t even have the right to live, let alone worship freely or choose their own religion. I donate online via credit card.

And lest you think this is a third world problem, here’s the hatred part as demonstrated in the first world:

And that’s just a snippet of the Faith Under Fire category.

—————————

Afternote

Well if the End Times come soon, that clashes with my own pet theory that the Second Coming of Jesus will be sometime around the 2030s.

My reasoning is that according to the timing from Daniel’s vision (Daniel 9:24-27) the coming of the Messiah brings it not to the day Jesus was born in a manger, but to exactly the day of Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem. I got it from New Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell, here’s an excellent a roundup of those calculations – under PART FOUR.

Therefore, 1000 or 2000 years from that point is around 1030 A.D. or 2030 A.D., not the nice round turns of the millenniums that keep getting people so hysterical. We also have to factor in that Jesus’ birth made 1 B.C. become 1 A.D. without any ‘year zero’, and the ‘prophetic year’ being based on twelve 30-day months.

But remember… However good our guesses may seem, no one knows the day or hour it will come to pass (Matthew 24:36 & 42)


185 Responses to “First Quarter 2011: Signs of the End Times Checklist”

  1. peddiebill Says:

    Oh my goodness – end times yet again.
    Shame about the Earthquakes – there was a bigger one back in 1960 (25 May) in Chile. And there have been much bigger tidal waves. In New Zealand there was one many years ago that stranded whales on a hill 40 metres above sea level. And like yours no doubt will turn out to be – there have been very many predictions …. but alas nothing. Even 666 turned out to be a wrong number. Evidently the older version of the Book of Revelation gives the number as 616 instead of 666. Mind you I never was too good at reading the bar-codes in the super market so I will probably misread bar codes on ungodly foreheads as well. I actually made a collection of a few hundred failed predictions about the end of the world if you are interested. But in the words of the immortal Corporal Jones “Don’t Panic!”… at least not until after the Rugby World Cup.

    http://billpeddie.wordpress.com

  2. Daniel Says:

    It is done! All predictions are fell short of accuracy. But Bible prophecies never failed and Jesus said, He will return like as a thief at night. If we ever know the time, then it is wrong time again. But, FINAL judgment will strike the world! When? Nobody know it. Maybe tomorrow, or maybe next year or maybe another 40 years. We should not blame the predictors and it wont be accurate!

  3. Zack T Says:

    I think this video would prove to throw a twist into the end-time prophecy.. especially with regards to ‘666’.
    It’s another school of thought, but a very thought-provoking one..

  4. Scott Thong Says:

    Well peddiebill, thanks for the informative collection. Like I said, my attempt isn’t a serious one. I’ve read and heard of enough past theories that haven’t come to pass, such as the 10-horned Beast of Revelation being Russia, the EU, the Roman Catholic Church, Islam, the USA, and so forth.

  5. Ron Says:

    Wars and rumors of war? Famines and earthquakes? Jerusalem under siege?

    Wow, talk about a vague prognosticator. Jesus certainly didn’t go out on a limb with those predictions.

    Oh wait… yes he did:

    “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'” Matthew 24:29

    {Apparently Jesus the divine cosmologist apparently didn’t know jack about the universe he lived in.}

    “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” Luke 21:32

    {Guess what? His generation passed away and none of his predictions came true.}

  6. Zack T Says:

    There’s still plenty more to happen after the “wars and rumors of war”, “earthquakes” and before the darkening sun and moon, etc…

    v.9 – Hatred, heavy persecution and killing of Christians
    v.11 – Many false prophets will appear (i.e. more cults?)
    v.12 – Love for and within humanity shrinks and is probably a rare gem in the populace. (e.g. survival of the fittest? Every man for himself?)
    v.14 – The Gospel is preached around the world despite the persecution, “and then the end will come.”

    v.15 – “The abomination that causes desolation” (“spoken of through prophet Daniel”) is seen standing in “the holy place”. (There’s one “abomination that causes desolation” that ever happened was when a nation conquered Jerusalem and erected a statue of their god in the Holy of Holies of the Jerusalem temple, the holiest place on earth by God’s decree; where the statue fell on its face twice in two nights.)

    v.23 – More warnings about false prophets and (now) false Messiahs.

    v.29 – Then we come to the sun & moon darkening episode.

    v.30 – “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.” aka “Game Over”

    It’s still a long way before the sun & moon darkening episode. Don’t worry, Ron. Still to come.

  7. Scott Thong Says:

    “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’” Matthew 24:29

    {Apparently Jesus the divine cosmologist apparently didn’t know jack about the universe he lived in.}

    “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” Luke 21:32

    {Guess what? His generation passed away and none of his predictions came true.} – Ron

    Knowing you as far as your commenting here goes, I’d say you’re just saying that for amusement – you know better, as I’ve explained several times about literalism versus figures of speech or allusions.

    That said, take ‘stars will fall from the sky’ literally for the sake of argument. If we have an nigh-infinite number of giant balls of nuclear energy hurtling towards Earth at faster than relativistic speeds from all angles, you don’t agree it’s de facto ‘The End’ Times? The sun’s fusion shutting off and the moon disintegrating will be a minor problem by comparison.

  8. Simon Thong Says:

    When he can’t understand the most basic truth, about being born aagain, how could he deal with such higher-level truths? And he wants Christ to talk in cosmological terms?

  9. Ron Says:

    The first century Palestinian author meant the passage to be taken literally, as neither he nor his contemporaries had any concept of how big or how far off the nearest stars really were. This thought is echoed again in Revelation 6:13 where the author writes:

    “and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.”

    Our sun (which is a relatively small star in comparison to others) is the equivalent size of one million earths. So the above passages not only reveal the scientific ignorance of the biblical authors, but they also refute the claims of divine inspiration.

    So much for divine inspiration.

  10. Zack T Says:

    Palestinian?

  11. Ron Says:

    First century Palestine = Mediterranean area encompassing Judea, Samaria and Galilee

  12. Scott Thong Says:

    You forget or neglect that the context of the visions in Revelation is… Well, visions. He obviously didn’t get killed by all the chaos and upheaval he saw, no?

    So he wrote down exactly what he saw in his ‘dream state’, which is a montage of several years worth of wars, political events, natural disasters and otherworldly encounters compressed into a burst of information.

    As well, plenty interpretations (especially those by novelists) believe that the Sandalpunk-era visionaries were describing the futuristic things they saw in the closest terms they understood from their time and culture. Hence the claims that Elijah’s chariot of fire was a UFO, and the war creatures in Revelation are attack choppers and main battle tanks.

    Similar would apply to a First Century author who saw distant meteors/satellites/orbital weapons burning upon entry into the atmosphere – to the naked eye they look like moving stars, which is how he would then describe them.

    Put ourselves in that position – UFOlogists have it in their minds that flying saucers are advanced machines piloted by sentient alien species because those are the concepts they are familiar with. For all we know, the reality could be that UFOs are actually blargickh emanations resonating from the ephusiastic dimension for the purposes of yynthrrxx. (If you don’t know what those words mean, neither do I – because they represent concepts and perceptions that are beyond our mental ability to comprehend. Lovecraft might have a better understanding were he still around.)

    Furthermore, again as I’ve used as a specific example, the writer of Revelation also uses poetic descriptions – Jesus Christ coming down with a sword in His mouth is likely supposed to mean that He will judge with His words, rather than that He will be using a form of Santoryu like Roronoa Zoro from One Piece.

    Like I’ve said countless times, give them a linguistic break – even today we call meteorites ‘shooting stars’ and say ‘the sun rises in the east’, both of which are scientifically inaccurate descriptions.

    But having already said that countless times, I again conclude that you do know better, and are just here for the amusement. Same case for me!

  13. Simon Thong Says:

    When Ron can’t understand the most basic truth, about being born again, how could he deal with such higher-level truths? And he wants Christ to talk in cosmological terms?

    Nitpicker.

  14. menj Says:

    Wow, its very strange that this topic should come up, because a few days ago before I left for JB, I bought a book at Amcorp Mall on the topic of Christian millenerism which — to sum it up in a nutshell –summarises the various competing versions between Christian sects and cults about the end-times. Apparently even Christians cannot decide on how the end-times would play out in the end, LOL.

    And yet here you are, proposing yet another competing millenerium version!

  15. Simon Thong Says:

    The Mahdi, Islam and millenarism
    In Sunni and Shia eschatology, the Mahdi (Arabic: مهدي‎ / ISO 233: mahdī / English: Guided One), also Mehdi (Arabic: مہدی‎ English: One of the Moon) is the prophesied redeemer of Islam who will stay on Earth for seven, nine or nineteen years (according to various interpretations) before the Day of Judgment (yawm al-qiyamah / literally, the Day of Resurrection) and, alongside Jesus, will rid the world of wrongdoing, injustice and tyranny.

    In Shia Islam, the belief in the Mahdi is a “powerful and central religious idea” and closely related to the Twelfth Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, whose return from occultation is deemed analogous with the coming of the Mahdi.

    In Sunni traditions, there are several hadiths referring to the Mahdi.
    The Prophet Muhammad said:

    The Mahdi is the protector of the knowledge, the heir to the knowledge of all the prophets, and is aware of all things.

    The dominion (authority) of the Mahdi is one of the proofs that God has created all things; these are so numerous that his [the Mahdi’s] proofs will overcome (will be influential, will be dominant) everyone and nobody will have any counter-proposition against him.

    People will flee from him [the Mahdi] as sheep flee from the shepherd. Later, people will begin to look for a purifier. But since they can find none to help them but him, they will begin to run to him.

    When matters are entrusted to competent [the Mahdi], Almighty God will raise the lowest part of the world for him, and lower the highest places. So much that he will see the whole world as if in the palm of his hand. Which of you cannot see even a single hair in the palm of his hand?

    In the time of the Mahdi, a Muslim in the East will be able to see his Muslim brother in the West, and he in the West will see him in the East.

    Sadir al-Sayrafi says: I heard from Imam Abu Abdullah Jafar al-Sadiq that: … He whose rights have been taken away and who is denied (hazrat mahdi (as)) will walk among them, move through their markets and walk where they walk. but they will not recognize hazraz mahdi (as) until Allah gives them leave to recognize him, just as He did with the Prophet Yusuf (as).

    Muhammad al-Baqir, the Fourth (Isma’ili) or Fifth (Twelver) Imam said of the Mahdi:

    The Master of the Command was named as the Mahdi because he will dig out the Torah and other heavenly books from the cave in Antioch. He will judge among the people of the Torah according to the Torah; among the people of the Gospel according to the Gospel; among the people of the Psalms in accordance with the Psalms; among the people of the Qur’an in accordance with the Qur’an.

    Ja’far al-Sadiq, the Sixth Imam, made the following prophecies:

    Abu Bashir says: When I asked Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq, “O son of the Messenger of God! Who is the Mahdi (qa’im) of your clan (ahl al-bayt)?”, he replied: “The Mahdi will conquer the world; at that time the world will be illuminated by the light of God, and everywere in which those other than God are worshipped will become places where God is worshiped; and even if the polytheists do not wish it, the only faith on that day will be the religion of God.

    Sadir al-Sayrafi says: I heard from Imam Abu Abdullah Ja’far al-Sadiq that: Our modest Imam, to whom this occultation belongs [the Mahdi], who is deprived of and denied his rights, will move among them and wander through their markets and walk where they walk, but they will not recognize him.

    Abu Bashir says: I heard Imam Muhammad al-Baqr say: “He said: When the Mahdi appears he will follow in the path of the Messenger of God. Only he [the Mahdi] can explain the works of the Messenger of God.

    The face of the Mahdi shall shine upon the surface of the Moon.
    etc…

    see Mahdi, wikipedia

    Join the millenarism band LOL x 10

  16. menj Says:

    The Shi’ite version of eschatology is rejected by mainstream Islam, so quoting them doesn’t help justify the competing versions of Christian millenarism one single bit. Too bad.

    Here is what Islam says about what will happen in the end-times:

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah’s Apostle said, “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.

    Not a pretty end for the half-naked man worshippers, too bad….

  17. Simon Thong Says:

    Not justifying anything, merely to inform you that there are differences within your own kind that you should not ignore. And no good trying to explain away anything. You’re so fond of rubbishing Christianity, picking on the differences within it. Why don’t you rubbish your own kind, who are equally within your religion? People who live in glass houses…Also, take out the log in your own eye before…

  18. Scott Thong Says:

    The Shi’ite version of eschatology is rejected by mainstream Islam – menj

    Funny, Shia say the same thing in reverse – that they are mainstream and everyone else is misguided:

    Jais director Datuk Muhammad Khusrin Munawi called the group “fanatics and a threat to national security” whose members were led to believe that other Islamic sects were infidels. – Followers of Downright-Wrong Shi’ite Islam Arrested For Considering Other Islamic Beliefs Downright-Wrong

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah’s Apostle said, “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts. – menj

    In other words, Isa (not Jesus) the son of Mariyam (not Mary) will lead Muslims to slaughter all non-Muslims, despite the latters’ best efforts at invoking the protection-racket deal they had already agreed to, and once the protection is annulled offering everything they own in exchange for their lives won’t work since the dead can be looted anyway.

    But I’m getting ahead of myself… I’m sure you would know better the exact details of how that passage will play out. And that your interpretation will be exactly the same as every other Muslim who reads that passage. Yes?

    Besides, the Hadiths have other details about what the End Times will be like:

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 7 (part):

    Narrated Anas:

    ‘Abdullah bin Salam heard the news of the arrival of Allah’s Apostle (at Medina) while he was on a farm collecting its fruits. So he came to the Prophet and said, “I will ask you about three things which nobody knows unless he be a prophet. Firstly, what is the first portent of the Hour? What is the first meal of the people of Paradise? And what makes a baby look like its father or mother?’. The Prophet said, “Just now Gabriel has informed me about that.” ‘Abdullah said, “Gabriel?” The Prophet said, “Yes.” ‘Abdullah said, “He, among the angels is the enemy of the Jews.” On that the Prophet recited this Holy Verse:–

    “Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel (let him die in his fury!) for he has brought it (i.e. Qur’an) down to your heart by Allah’s permission.” (2.97) Then he added, “As for the first portent of the Hour, it will be a fire that will collect the people from the East to West. And as for the first meal of the people of Paradise, it will be the caudite (i.e. extra) lobe of the fish liver. And if a man’s discharge proceeded that of the woman, then the child resembles the father, and if the woman’s discharge proceeded that of the man, then the child resembles the mother.”

    Vague enough that I am sure Muslim scholars don’t have their own competing theories about the actual results, instead all share exactly the same idea about whether the fire will be a nuke, blast them Westward, suck them in from both East and West, etc.

    I included the third question too, because it has opened my eyes to the truth that everything I learnt in Genetics 101 is an atheist lie. I demand that Mendel be excommunicated and Watson & Crick be stripped of their Nobel Prize! /sarc

    Oh, oh! And who exactly will Dajjal be? I’m sure every good Muslim knows that fellow’s true identity.

    Differing eschatology is no big deal for us, as Jesus already disclaimed that no one would know when the End Times would come exactly – concrete knowledge of the details prelude period would negate that – and the future as revealed to Daniel and John is seen in the form of fantastical visions.

    Why don’t you rubbish your own kind, who are equally within your religion? People who live in glass houses… – Simon Thong

    Christians are allowed to think freely and openly – we seldom get our heads chopped off (anymore) for having our own individual thoughts, daring to hold different opinions, or (gasp!) criticizing the orthodoxy. Not everyone is afforded that luxury, which to us is a basic human right.

    Man, it feels good to be a Christian who isn’t getting decapitated / stoned / death fatwa-ed / sent to ISA and religious reeducation camp!

  19. Simon Thong Says:

    Iran Prepares For Madhi/Antichrist
    Iran leaders pave way for messianic ‘Mahdi’
    5th annual confab brings together politics, religion, apocalyptic endtimes visions

    Posted: August 10, 2009
    10:17 pm Eastern

    © 2009 WorldNetDaily

    Iran last week held a multi-day conference, bringing together politicians, mullahs, students – Shiite and Sunni alike – to plot what can be done on this earthly plane to hasten the coming of the anointed one, a messianic, endtimes personage known as the Mahdi.

    It wasn’t a conference covered by the western press.

    But Joel Richardson, author of the new book, “The Islamic Antichrist,” conducted interviews with participants of this year’s conference, as well as previous conferences, which have been held for the last five years – all in a bid to lay the groundwork for an apocalyptic vision of the day Muslims will rule the world.

    “For the past five years, the Iranian religious and political leaders have annually gathered together for two days in the city of Qom for what is called ‘The International Conference of Mahdism Doctrine,’ sponsored by the Bright Future Institute,” explains Richardson in a WND commentary today. “The purpose of the Bright Future Institute is ‘to introduce Imam Mahdi to the world’ and ‘to pave the ground for his reappearance’ and as [President Mahmoud] Ahmadinejad stated at last year’s conference, ‘help bring all of humanity to the knowledge of the true savior of mankind, Imam al-Mahdi.'”

    Each year a growing number of Sunni Muslims and Christians join the predominantly Shiite hosts. This year, 400 articles were presented and 40 were selected for presentation. After the completion of the conference each year, the conference papers are published in book form and also placed on the Bright Future website.

    “The theme of the conference this year was ‘the Society and government which prepares the ground for the appearance [of the Mahdi]: Missions and Strategies,’ explains Richardson, whose controversial book has skyrocketed up the best-sellers list since it debuted last week. “Each year, a special tribute is also paid to 30 key individuals who are recognized as being particular bright lights in the ongoing effort to spread the knowledge of the Mahdi worldwide. These 30 are known as ‘the Helpers of the Mahdi.'”

    The book is also available in electronic form at reduced price through Scribd.

    Says Savyon and Y. Mansharof, an Iranian scholar: “From the establishment of the Islamic Regime in 1979 to Ahmadinejad’s rise to power in August 2005, Mahdism had been a religious doctrine and a tradition that had no political manifestation. The political system operated independently of this messianic belief and of the anticipation of the return of the Mahdi. It was only with Ahmadinejad’s presidency that this religious doctrine has become a political philosophy and taken a central place in politics.”

    “Mahdism is now increasingly being used as a political tool by appealing to the religious and nationalistic tendencies of various Muslims groups,” says Richardson, who believes the striking similarities between Quranic and traditional Muslim depictions of the Mahdi suggest he could well be one in the same as the one known in Christian circles as “the Antichrist.”

    A presenter at last year’s conference, Dr. Mariam Tabar, asserted that the “military capabilities of the future Mahdist state depend on Islamic governments in the here and now acquiring abilities to stand against the enemies of the imam [al-Mahdi].” Iran, of course, is attempting to become a nuclear power.

    While some involved in Mahdism see the figure as a peace-loving global world leader, others within the movement reveal another side.

    Last year, for instance, Ali Larijani, the chairman and speaker of the Iranian Parliament quoted Imam Muhammad Baqir, a famous Muslim scholar, as saying, “there must be bloodshed and jihad to establish Imam Mahdi’s rule.” Ayatollah Ibrahim al Amini, professor at the Religious Learning Center at Qom affirms Larijani when he states, “The Mahdi will offer the religion of Islam to the Jews and Christians; if they accept it they will be spared, otherwise they will be killed.”

    In “The Islamic Antichrist,” Richardson, a student of Islam, exposes Western Christians to the Muslim traditions. He says most Christians have no idea of the stunning similarities between biblical Antichrist and the “Islamic Mahdi.”

    Richardson’s book stands in stark contrast to most other popular prophecy books of the last 40 years.

    The student of the Middle East says that after decades of reading popular prophecy books and even best-selling fiction like the “Left Behind” series, millions of evangelical Christians around the world are expecting the Antichrist to emerge from a revived Roman Empire, which many have assumed is associated with the Roman Catholic Church and the European Union.

    Not so, argues Richardson. His book makes the case that the biblical Antichrist is one and the same as the Quran’s Muslim Mahdi.

    “The Islamic Antichrist” is a book almost certain to be greeted in the Muslim world with the same enthusiasm as Salman Rushdie’s “The Satanic Verses.” The author, Joel Richardson, is prepared. He has written the book under a pseudonym to protect himself and his family.

    “The Bible abounds with proofs that the Antichrist’s empire will consist only of nations that are, today, Islamic,” says Richardson. “Despite the numerous prevailing arguments for the emergence of a revived European Roman empire as the Antichrist’s power base, the specific nations the Bible identifies as comprising his empire are today all Muslim.”

    Richardson believes the key error of many previous prophecy scholars involves the misinterpretation of a prediction by Daniel to Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel describes the rise and fall of empires of the future, leading to the endtimes. Western Christians have viewed one of those empires as Rome, when, claims Richardson, Rome never actually conquered Babylon and was thus disqualified as a possibility.

    It had to be another empire that rose and fell and rose again that would lead to rule of this “man of sin,” described in the Bible. That empire, he says, is the Islamic Empire, which did conquer Babylon and, in fact, rules over it even today.

    Many evangelical Christians believe the Bible predicts a charismatic ruler, the Antichrist, will arise in the last days, before the return of Jesus. The Quran also predicts that a man, called the Mahdi, will rise up to lead the nations, pledging to usher in an era of peace. Richardson makes the case these two men are, in fact, one in the same.

    Richardson is the co-author with Walid Shoebat of “God’s War on Terror: Islam, Prophecy and the Bible” and co-editor of “Why We Left Islam: Former Muslims Speak Out.” “The Islamic Antichrist” is published by WND Books and is available autographed in the WND Superstore.

    [link to http://www.wnd.com]

    I’m just relaying the information. I am not a Pre-tribulationist, so please don’t kill the messenger.

  20. Simon Thong Says:

    http://prophecyupdate.blogspot.com/2011/03/mahdi-is-near-according-to-iranian.html

    Monday, March 28, 2011
    The Mahdi is “Near” According to Iranian Leadership
    This topic was just posted below (earlier today), but a new article has come out. This topic is just too important to update an old post, so below is the updated information. To me, this is huge news – as we have been waiting for Ahmadinejad to begin to tangibly act upon his fantasy of the return of the mythical Madhi. It now looks like Iran is primed to make their move to trigger the Mahdi’s return. We also know that this “trigger” is conflict and violence in and around Israel – with the Mahdi coming in to “save the day” for radical Islam.

    Iranian Video Says Mahdi is ‘Near’

    New evidence has emerged that the Iranian government sees the current unrest in the Middle East as a signal that the Mahdi–or Islamic messiah–is about to appear.

    CBN News has obtained a never-before-seen video produced by the Iranian regime that says all the signs are moving into place — and that Iran will soon help usher in the end times.

    While the revolutionary movements gripping the Middle East have created uncertainty throughout the region, the video shows that the Iranian regime believes the chaos is divine proof that their ultimate victory is at hand.

    The article brings out facts that prophecy watchers have warned about for years – the potential triggering point for the final, end-times prophetic battles as described in Psalm 83/Isaiah 17 and of course Ezekiel 38-39. Its nice to see the MSM getting on board, but the Iranian regime is making this very public now – even more so than before.

    The propaganda footage has reportedly been approved at the highest levels of the Iranian government.

    It’s called The Coming is Near and it describes current events in the Middle East as a prelude to the arrival of the mythical tweflth Imam or Mahdi — the messiah figure who Islamic scriptures say will lead the armies of Islam to victory over all non-Muslims in the last days.

    Kahlili, author of the book, A Time to Betray, worked as a double agent for the CIA inside the Iranian regime.

    “Just a few weeks ago, Ahmadenijad’s office screened this movie with much excitement for the clerics,” Kahlili told CBN News. “The target audience is Muslims in the Middle East and around the world.”

    Now they come to the role of the final conflict in Israel:

    The video claims that Iran is destined to rise as a great power in the last days to help defeat America and Israel and usher in the return of the Mahdi. And it makes clear the Iranians believe that time is fast approaching.

    The ongoing upheavals in other Middle Eastern countries like Yemen and Egypt–including the rise of the Muslim Brotherood — are also analyzed as prophetic signs that the Mahdi is near — so is the current poor health of the king of Saudi Arabia, an Iranian rival.

    Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Khameini, and Hassan Nasrallah, leader of Iran’s terrorist proxy Hezbollah, are hailed as pivotal end times players, whose rise was predicted in Islamic scriptures.

    The same goes for Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadenijad, who the video says will conquer Jerusalem prior to the Mahdi’s coming.

    Joel Rosenberg gives us the magnitude of this situation:

    I think it’s a very grave development,” Mideast expert Joel Rosenberg, author of The Twelfth Imam, told CBN News, “because it gives you a window into the thinking of the Iranian leadership: that they believe the time for war with Israel may be even sooner than others had imagined.”

    This is a very big development. It seems that Iran is telegraphing their intentions throughout the Middle East and this highly public video may serve as a rallying cry for the coalitions to finally come together for the last battles – all of which are intended to destroy Israel.

    Everything that we have been watching around the world – the signs of the final generation – all seem to be coming together at this time. Not just the signs involving the Middle East – but all of the world-wide signs that have been discussed so many times before.

    One can only wonder what will come next.

  21. Simon Thong Says:

    Here’s another version of Islamic millenarism/chiliasm

    http://notabenoid.com/book/294/1965/
    From Sect to Church: A Sociological Interpretation of the Baha’i Movement, Chapter 1: Proclamation — 1. Historical Background
    Both Sunnite and Shi’ite Islam possess well-developed eschatologies, but the chiliastic motif, the urgent expectation of imminent eschatalogical events, is much stronger in the latter.
    7 Muhammad himself appeared from the beginning as the messenger of a coming day of judgement, one whose task, in the words of one of the early Meccan suras, was to “arise and warn”.
    8 [1] It has been held that this warning of approaching judgement was perhaps the most powerful new element in Muhammad’s message.
    9 [2] In the Koran the day of judgement is described with terrible details.
    10 [3] In contrast with Biblical eschatology, however, this day is not advertised by any signs and portents.
    11 It is always present in terrible nearness, placing each moment of life in the shadow of eternal decision.
    12 [4]

    With the worldly victory of Islam after the death of the Prophet the terrible simplicity of this message grew into an eschatology both more complicated and more comfortably remote.
    13 In this period we find the development of the conception of the Mahdi.

    The hadith attributes to the Prophet himself several prophecies concerning the Mahdi.
    19 The conception of the Mahdi remained quite marginal in Sunnite hadith.
    20 6 It was more important as a figure in the popular imagination than as a theological doctrine.
    21 In Shi’ite theology, however, the doctrine of the Mahdi occupies a central position.

  22. Simon Thong Says:

    Here comes SUNNI Islam and the Mahdi
    http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter2/2.html
    Sunni Documentation on Imam al-Mahdi (AS)

    For the Sunni brothers, there are six major collections of traditions based on the Sunni standards for verifying the authenticity of a tradition. These six books are: Sahih al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sahih al-Tirmidhi, Sunan Ibn Majah, Sunan Abu Dawud, and Sahih al-Nisa’i. I just quote few traditions from these six books to prove that a knowledgeable Sunni brother/sister can NOT deny that:

    * al-Mahdi (AS) will come in the last days to make a universal Government,
    * al-Mahdi (AS) is from the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF),
    * al-Mahdi (AS) is from the progeny of Fatimah (AS), the daughter of the Prophet (PBUH&HF),
    * al-Mahdi (AS) is different than Prophet Jesus (the Messiah),
    * Prophet Jesus (AS) will come as one of the followers of Imam al-Mahdi and will pray behind him in congressional prayer.

    Another undeniable fact is that many leading Sunni scholars have written books after books exclusively about Imam al-Mahdi (AS) which I included some of their names at the end of this article.

    Go to website to read more http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter2/2.html

    LOL

  23. menj Says:

    @Simon Thong:

    “Not justifying anything, merely to inform you that there are differences within your own kind that you should not ignore.”

    There aren’t any differences, unless if you are going to factor in the so-called “differences” from rejected sects in Islam such as the Shi’ites or the Ahmadiyyah or any of those wacky heterodox groups who claim to be “Muslims”. Next thing you are going to say, Muslims should accept what Ayah Pin says about Islam and take it as part of the “mainstream”. LMAO, you really are funny.

    “You’re so fond of rubbishing Christianity, picking on the differences within it.”

    LOL, I must have struck a nerve, haven’t I? Where have I “rubbished Christianity” simply by pointing out that there are many competing versions within and between the Christian sects and cults? There were many competing versions even in early Christianity itself, even during Paul of Tarsus’ time. Won’t say much here since I haven’t finished reading the book, but rest assured that when I have, it will be fully elucidated in all its gory detail. A layman Christian like you who only follows what the local pastor says can hardly comprehend something as elementary as this.

    “Why don’t you rubbish your own kind, who are equally within your religion? People who live in glass houses…”

    Might want to take your own advice first. It’s been a long time since you could get away with rubbishing Islam before I came along, eh?

    “Also, take out the log in your own eye before…”

    Sorry, not interested in following any of the teachings of the corrupted (un)Holy Babble. Epic fail, try again.

  24. menj Says:

    @Scott Thong:

    “Funny, Shia say the same thing in reverse – that they are mainstream and everyone else is misguided”

    One can play the same game too and say the same for Eastern orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestants, Jehovah witnesses, Unitarians, etc. However, when a heterodox cult of some 10% of the population say that the majority of mainstream Islam (90%) are “misguided” and that they are the “mainstream”, one simply laughs at such a claim and puts it where it belongs….in the rubbish bin.

    “In other words, Isa (not Jesus) the son of Mariyam (not Mary)”

    Don’t be stupid and play this “Allah is not God”, “Isa is not Jesus” and “Maryam is not Mary” game with me. You are smarter than that You very well know that they are indeed synonymous.

    “will lead Muslims to slaughter all non-Muslims, despite the latters’ best efforts at invoking the protection-racket deal they had already agreed to”

    You are already paying the Jizyah, and it’s called “income tax”.

    “But I’m getting ahead of myself… I’m sure you would know better the exact details of how that passage will play out. And that your interpretation will be exactly the same as every other Muslim who reads that passage. Yes?

    I doubt that I will be issuing a competing version as Christians seem to be very much fond of doing. My understanding of Islamic eschatology is based only on the Qur’an and Sunnah, nothing more or less than that.

    “Besides, the Hadiths have other details about what the End Times will be like. Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 7 (part):”

    “Vague enough that I am sure Muslim scholars don’t have their own competing theories about the actual results”

    Not that I know of, and certainly Muslim scholars are not going to discuss to the death about minute details such as these. We don’t make a fuss of what will happen in some far remote future, as do the Christians.

    “Oh, oh! And who exactly will Dajjal be? I’m sure every good Muslim knows that fellow’s true identity.”

    Again, who is Dajjal is not important to the Muslims, but we know who has the characteristics of the Dajjal, enough for us to recognise when he appears.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masih_ad-Dajjal

    “Differing eschatology is no big deal for us, as Jesus already disclaimed that no one would know when the End Times would come exactly”

    Which was why the Prophet Muhammad PBUH was sent to warn mankind of exactly what would happen in the future.

  25. Zack T Says:

    However, when a heterodox cult of some 10% of the population say that the majority of mainstream Islam (90%) are “misguided” and that they are the “mainstream

    Funny how ‘Flat Earth’ and ‘Earth center of solar-systerm’ used to be ‘mainstream’…. Hmm…

  26. Zack T Says:

    Don’t be stupid and play this “Allah is not God”, “Isa is not Jesus” and “Maryam is not Mary” game with me. You are smarter than that You very well know that they are indeed synonymous

    Yes… so was Jack of “Jack & Jill” and Jack of “Jack & the Beanstalk”; and the two female main characters (dubbed ‘Beauty’) for both “Beauty & the Beast” and “Sleeping Beauty” are also the same character.

  27. Zack T Says:

    . …about minute details such as these..

    Shows how dedicated are Christians to study the bible and what it says about the ‘End Times’…
    But as Scott pointed out, it matters not what we say the ‘End Times’ will be like, because frankly, we won’t ever know until it happens, because who can fathom what God knows and what John saw when he wrote Revelation?
    How everyone interprets the relevant text is everyone’s own cup of tea.

    So why do you make it as though this is one reason for you to reject Christianity?

  28. Simon Thong Says:

    mange – Might want to take your own advice first. It’s been a long time since you could get away with rubbishing Islam before I came along, eh?

    How stupid you are. I have never rubbished Islam. I have rubbished you.

  29. Simon Thong Says:

    menj, you’re so low in iq that I have to use small letters to describe yours.

  30. Simon Thong Says:

    menj knows he can say anything he wants to, to insult Christ and Christianity, and nothing will happen to him. He lives in Malaysia, you see. He is a muslim and a malay. He lives where it is safe for him. It costs him nothing to be outspoken, to shout untruths, to sound the call for the destruction of Christianity.What a ‘brave’ menj! He barks! Loudly.

  31. Scott Thong Says:

    “Funny, Shia say the same thing in reverse – that they are mainstream and everyone else is misguided”

    One can play the same game too and say the same for Eastern orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestants, Jehovah witnesses, Unitarians, etc. However, when a heterodox cult of some 10% of the population say that the majority of mainstream Islam (90%) are “misguided” and that they are the “mainstream”, one simply laughs at such a claim and puts it where it belongs….in the rubbish bin. – menj

    Shia believe that their imams are infallible, manifestations of Allah on earth, perfect interpretors of the Qur’an, and directly descended from Muhammad’s family through a successor (Ali ibn Abi Talib) who was (allegedly) specifically chosen and named by Muhammad to lead all Muslims. All of which most Sunni reject.

    Roman Catholics believe that their popes are infallible, direct representatives of God on earth, perfect interpretors of the Bible, and with their position of leadership directly inherited from the Apostles through a successor (Peter) who was (allegedly) specifically chosen and named by Jesus to be the foundation of the universal church. All of which most Protestants reject.

    Perhaps you can empathize with the disagreements Protestants have with Roman Catholics, then? Using your own experience of the disagreements Sunni have with Shia.

    Further, Protestants and Roman Catholics have engaged in bloody warfare over their differences in the past (whether wholly or partially provoked by the doctrinal aspect), just as Sunni and Shia continue to kill one another over their differences up till today.

    (I am not afraid to look critically at the sins of self-proclaimed followers of Christ, nor do I deny them. Even in arguing that the First Crusade was merely an overdue response to 461 years of Muslim-initiated aggression, I did not argue that the Crusaders were theologically justified, morally blameless, or purely pious in their motives. Can you say the same for yourself vis-a-vis those 461 years?)

    “In other words, Isa (not Jesus) the son of Mariyam (not Mary)”

    Don’t be stupid and play this “Allah is not God”, “Isa is not Jesus” and “Maryam is not Mary” game with me. You are smarter than that You very well know that they are indeed synonymous. – menj

    On the contrary, it is precisely because I bother to think about it – instead of swallowing the multi-cultural, politically correct, ecumenical, let’s-all-join-hands-and sing-kumbaya line – that I come to my conclusion.

    Put it this way: Let me tell you about a man named Mahathir Mohamad. I tell you that he was a Prime Minister of Malaysia, trained as a medical doctor, oversaw development of many Malaysian projects such as PROTON, the Petronas Towers and Putrajaya.

    Agreed? No problem there?

    But next I tell you that he also was of pure Nubian blood, seven feet tall, built like a sumo wrestler, and led the nation to a shooting war against Iceland where his side was armed with Ak47s made of spun sugar.

    Am I talking about the same Mahathir Mohamad as you are? Or do I have someone else in mind who just happens to have some of the same details?

    Similar goes for YHWH/Allah, Jesus/Isa, so forth. While some superficial details are apparently the same, the entire personality, modus operandi and other personal details are totally at odds.

    For example:

    At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: “O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! “O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!” But she pointed to the babe. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?” He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet – Sura 19:27-30 (Yusufali translation)

    At least one the characters above must be out of sync with the Christian versions, take your pick: Is it ‘Mary’ who is the mother of the Pharisee-scolding ‘Jesus’ and also the sister of ‘Aaron’ who apparently outlived his Pharaoh-taunting brother by a few hundred years?

    Things make much more sense (or rather, much less nonsense) if we leave the names as their original Arabic versions and don’t try and conflate them with the Biblical personalities:

    At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: “O Maryam! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! “O sister of Harun! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!” But she pointed to the babe. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?” He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet – Sura 19:27-30 (Yusufali translation)

    There! There are no manuscripts that contradict the above, because you won’t find ‘Maryam’ or ‘Harun’ anywhere in the Bible, whereas Mary and Aaron are separated by several dozen generations, multiple wars, national-scale purges and exodii.

    Or maybe next you’ll be telling me that the YHWH = Allah = Brahma = insertnameofdeityhere pantheist gang is correct? After all, insertnameofdeityhere created all of existence, therefore insertnameofdeityhere is synonymous with the Abrahamic one. Right? /sarc

    You are already paying the Jizyah, and it’s called “income tax”. – menj

    As we oh so painfully are aware of, but it’s refreshing to hear it honestly admitted as so.

    I doubt that I will be issuing a competing version as Christians seem to be very much fond of doing. My understanding of Islamic eschatology is based only on the Qur’an and Sunnah, nothing more or less than that. – menj

    Same here. However, I also am not afraid to take a look at what others think. It is informative as they may have knowledge or insights that I didn’t notice. I don’t necessarily

    But you’re basically saying every Muslim who tries his/her hand at interpreting Islamic eschatology, based solely on the Qur’an and Sunnah, will come to the exact same conclusion? Seems like a tall order, especially in light of the fact that even within followers of the Sunnah itself, there are various schools of law and differing interpretations – including the Wahhabi who reject older Sunni scholars and traditions.

    So they can all agree on vaguely described events in the far future, even though they can’t fully agree on how to interpret and practice the law which has been around for over a millenia and is much more well covered by the Qur’an and Hadith?

    In the meantime, I’m sure Simon would eagerly take the opening to dig up various competing versions from different Islamic scholars.

    Again, who is Dajjal is not important to the Muslims, but we know who has the characteristics of the Dajjal, enough for us to recognise when he appears.

    As Zack says, so too will we know whose guess was right when it actually happens. Hindsight makes anyone seem like a hyper-observant, stock-market winning genius.

    Which was why the Prophet Muhammad PBUH was sent to warn mankind of exactly what would happen in the future – menj.

    Speaking of being warned of what would happen in the future, Jesus and Paul similarly warned us about self-proclaimed prophets after their time. *cough* *cough*

  32. Scott Thong Says:

    He lives in Malaysia, you see. He is a muslim and a malay. He lives where it is safe for him. It costs him nothing to be outspoken, to shout untruths, to sound the call for the destruction of Christianity. – Simon Thong

    Maybe that’s a good reason we shouldn’t keep questioning him on Islamic interpretations of the end times, competing sects etc.

    We in Christianity are so used to open debate, criticism and difference of opinion that we consider them basic rights. No human authority can dictate to us what is ‘orthodox’ or ‘right’, especially not through threat of force, violence or exile.

    But not everyone can investigate into their religion so freely. They have to be careful to toe the line – let they end up like the aforementioned Ayah Pin.

    So perhaps let’s be understanding about their situation, and not force them to say something that would get them into trouble with the authorities – no matter how sincerely they believe it.

    Who knows, maybe in another 600 years, they’ll have the same freedoms as we do. Then our spiritual descendants can have a proper, unfettered debate about their respective beliefs.

  33. menj Says:

    @Zack T:

    “Funny how ‘Flat Earth’ and ‘Earth center of solar-systerm’ used to be ‘mainstream’…. Hmm…”

    Not relevant to what I said about orthodoxy and heterodoxy in Islam. In Christianity, however, the history is such that the “orthodoxy” were originally the heterodox and the “heterodox” were originally the orthodoxy!

    “Yes… so was Jack of “Jack & Jill” and Jack of “Jack & the Beanstalk”; and the two female main characters (dubbed ‘Beauty’) for both “Beauty & the Beast” and “Sleeping Beauty” are also the same character.”

    If you want to play childish games by citing fictional characters from children’s stories, that is your problem and not mine.

    “Shows how dedicated are Christians to study the bible and what it says about the ‘End Times’…”

    On the contrary, there are many problems on so many levels when this happens — such as the fact that Christians do not have their own “estachological” tradition to begin with — so they have to make it up as they go along. Hence the various competing versions in Christian sects even today. As I mentioned to Simon Thong, a layperson would find this unimportant because he/she has been listening to the local pastor for so long, it no longer matters what the Truth is.

    “But as Scott pointed out, it matters not what we say the ‘End Times’ will be like, because frankly, we won’t ever know until it happens, because who can fathom what God knows and what John saw when he wrote Revelation?”

    I really don’t want to know what the Christian vision would be like, seeing that stories of multiple whores riding on multi-headed dragons are featured quite prominently in that particular book of the NT you refer to.

    “So why do you make it as though this is one reason for you to reject Christianity?”

    I have 1001 reasons to reject Christianity and accept Islam. This is simply one of them.

  34. menj Says:

    @Simon Thong:

    “How stupid you are. I have never rubbished Islam.”

    Might want to read your own comments on this blog before I came along. I have been following your history and the comments you made about Islam in the past. It’s very consistent with your character now.

    “I have rubbished you.”

    And what makes you think that I care about whether you have “rubbished” me or not? It reflects badly more on you than it does on me.

    “menj, you’re so low in iq that I have to use small letters to describe yours.”

    So who has the lower IQ, the person who has the low IQ or the person who is arguing with the lower IQ person?

    “menj knows he can say anything he wants to, to insult Christ and Christianity, and nothing will happen to him. He lives in Malaysia, you see. He is a muslim and a malay.”

    Where I live does not matter, I will continue to criticise Christianity as I see fit. Whether I am in the US, the UK or anywhere else, the place I stay will have no impact on me. And by the way, I am not a “Malay”, so you got that part wrong. Too bad.

  35. Zack T Says:

    Multiple whores? I think you got that mixed up with the *****’s Paradise.

    And no, we need not listen to our ‘local pastors’ to have our own understanding/interpretation of the ‘End Times’.. unlike Muslims who have to listen to Sheikhs or Imams..

    If you want to play childish games by citing fictional characters from children’s stories, that is your problem and not mine.

    And how do you know the characters in the Quran aren’t fictional? With such lack of archaeological evidences to support the Quranic version of those characters (IMO, practically none actually).

    In Christianity, however, the history is such that the “orthodoxy” were originally the heterodox and the “heterodox” were originally the orthodoxy!

    Actually, it’s more true for Islam, again. What Salman Rushdie’s book talks about is one example of such originally “orthodox” now considered “heterodox”.

  36. Simon Thong Says:

    Oh yes, of course, half-malay, half-javanese? or 1/4 malay, 3/4 javanese? a chap chong.

    no, you interpret it as rubbishing Islam; doesn’t say much about your understanding. Who’s arguing with you? talking down to you, non-muslim..

  37. Simon Thong Says:

    What a great surprise it would be for you when you tried to get into paradise one day and they say, “Begone! We know not you!”

    “But..but..but I was obedient. I tried to destroy Christianity! I insulted everyone! I…I…I…”

    “Where is your compassion? You have no attribute of..”

    Gates remain shut to you.

  38. menj Says:

    @Scott Thong:

    “Shia believe that their imams are infallible, manifestations of Allah on earth, perfect interpretors of the Qur’an, and directly descended from Muhammad’s family through a successor (Ali ibn Abi Talib) who was (allegedly) specifically chosen and named by Muhammad to lead all Muslims.”

    Exactly. That makes them the heterodox.

    “Perhaps you can empathize with the disagreements Protestants have with Roman Catholics, then?”

    The problems between the Sunni-Shia are different from the RC-Protestant differences. They aren’t similar to one another.

    “On the contrary, it is precisely because I bother to think about it – instead of swallowing the multi-cultural, politically correct, ecumenical, let’s-all-join-hands-and sing-kumbaya line – that I come to my conclusion.”

    Your rather silly narrative about Mahadey being a Nubian actually vindicates my point. We both know this is untrue, the person we have in mind is definitely not of Nubian blood or has a wrestler background and hence the story is rejected as fictional (not simply claiming that this person is different from the other guy) outright, right from the start.

    “Similar goes for YHWH/Allah, Jesus/Isa, so forth. While some superficial details are apparently the same, the entire personality, modus operandi and other personal details are totally at odds.”

    There are so many parallels between God as described in the Qur’an and Bible, the Jesus of the Qur’an and the Bible, and Mary of the Qur’an and the Bible. They are undoubtedly the same person. Your disagreement on details does not invalidate this.

    “For example:

    At least one the characters above must be out of sync with the Christian versions, take your pick: Is it ‘Mary’ who is the mother of the Pharisee-scolding ‘Jesus’ and also the sister of ‘Aaron’ who apparently outlived his Pharaoh-taunting brother by a few hundred years?”

    LMAO if that is your problem then this has been addressed here:

    http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/mary-the-sister-of-aaron/

    This was already explained in a hadith from the Prophet PBUH:

    “When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read “O sister of Harun” (i.e. Maryam) in the Qur’an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah’s Messenger(P) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them.” (Sahih Muslim – Hadith No.5326).

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/mary.html

    Yeah, already resolved 1400 years ago and yet you still see it fit to delve into these childish polemics. Maybe we should stop referring to Jesus as “the son of David” or Elizabeth (wife of Zechariah) as “daughter of Aaron” then, if this is so much of a problem for you to “make sense” of.

    “But you’re basically saying every Muslim who tries his/her hand at interpreting Islamic eschatology, based solely on the Qur’an and Sunnah, will come to the exact same conclusion? Seems like a tall order, especially in light of the fact that even within followers of the Sunnah itself”

    I am confident that the details will be the same.

    “Speaking of being warned of what would happen in the future, Jesus and Paul similarly warned us about self-proclaimed prophets after their time. *cough* *cough*”

    Oh yes, Jesus PBUH did warn of false prophets…but he was not referring to Muhammad PBUH at all. On the other hand, he clearly proclaimed the coming of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH as the “Paralektos” of the future.

  39. menj Says:

    “Oh yes, of course, half-malay, half-javanese? or 1/4 malay, 3/4 javanese? a chap chong.”

    My father is Javanese and my mother is half-Chinese. Any further questions?

    “What a great surprise it would be for you when you tried to get into paradise one day and they say, “Begone! We know not you!””

    I think you will find that when that day comes, we all will be judged accordingly and your fate will be very much different from what you expected it to be.

  40. menj Says:

    “Multiple whores? I think you got that mixed up with the *****’s Paradise.”

    Refer to Revelations 17. It’s definitely there.

    “And no, we need not listen to our ‘local pastors’ to have our own understanding/interpretation of the ‘End Times’.. unlike Muslims who have to listen to Sheikhs or Imams..”

    I am not a Shi’ite, you seem to be confusing me as one.

    “And how do you know the characters in the Quran aren’t fictional?”

    The same can be asked of you: how do you know they are? Simply because the details are contradicting the Bible does not make them “fictional”.

    “Actually, it’s more true for Islam, again.”

    You don’t seem to have a very thorough knowledge of early Christianity and its various competing sects, do you? Might want to grab that new book that was recently released by Bart D. Ehrman, he has all the details.

  41. Zack T Says:

    Yeah, already resolved 1400 years ago and yet you still see it fit to delve into these childish polemics. Maybe we should stop referring to Jesus as “the son of David” or Elizabeth (wife of Zechariah) as “daughter of Aaron” then, if this is so much of a problem for you to “make sense” of.

    “Son” or “Daughter” speaks of descent from these well-known figures.
    Jews have never called anyone ‘sister’ or ‘brother’ of anyone unless the person is indeed a sister or a brother of that said person.

    “What a great surprise it would be for you when you tried to get into paradise one day and they say, “Begone! We know not you!””

    Jesus said prior to that, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven.”
    Do you know what’s the will of Jesus’ Father?

    Refer to Revelations 17. It’s definitely there.

    Nope.. you got it mixed up with the Quran.
    Revelation 17 mentions of THE whore. Singular.

    The same can be asked of you: how do you know they are? Simply because the details are contradicting the Bible does not make them “fictional”.

    We’re not the one who accuse the Old Testament or New Testament to be corrupted or manipulated.
    Jews have a long history of keeping the Old Testament..
    And the bible is taken as historically accurate, contrary to the Quran.

    You don’t seem to have a very thorough knowledge of early Christianity and its various competing sects, do you?

    Of course there were many competing sects… You’d think the Devil would be interested with fake religions?
    But that doesn’t mean the bible had fallen victim to such… whereas the other has; i.e. Salman Rushdie’s book.

  42. Simon Thong Says:

    Zack T, menj is a sly one; he’ll say anything and everything, even if he ends up being contradictory BUT will DENY that he is. Sly also because he denies being malay but takes advantage of his malay status to get special privileges. Also, taken advantage of his malay-muslim status to attack our beliefs and insult our religion, knowing full well that he is untouchable. Yet, claims he would do the same wherever he lived. Brave talk. Not in danger, so very brave. Reminds of a friend who boasted of his courage but when a snake dropped onto the car roof next to us, OFF HE WENT screaming in fear! menj? LOL All talk, menj~

  43. menj Says:

    ““Son” or “Daughter” speaks of descent from these well-known figures.
    Jews have never called anyone ‘sister’ or ‘brother’ of anyone unless the person is indeed a sister or a brother of that said person.”

    The following articles shows evidence which are contrary to your claim, i.e. that the Jews never called anyone brother or sister unless they meant it literally:

    http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/mary-the-sister-of-aaron/

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/mary.html

    This has been dealt with and wrapped up by the Prophet PBUH himself 1400 years ago. Deal with it!

    “Jesus said prior to that, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven.”
    Do you know what’s the will of Jesus’ Father?”

    Definitely I do. See Qur’an, 1: 1 – 7

    “Nope.. you got it mixed up with the Quran.
    Revelation 17 mentions of THE whore. Singular.”

    Whether whore or whores, it doesn’t matter. Still whores riding on mythical animals, LOL. I doubt a dragon will be popping up anytime soon in the future.

    “We’re not the one who accuse the Old Testament or New Testament to be corrupted or manipulated.
    Jews have a long history of keeping the Old Testament..”

    Might want to read Bart D. Ehrman, Bruce Metzger and many other Christian textual criticism experts and scholars who all say the same thing: that the OT and the NT has been tampered with by various scribes. The Qur’an simply states a factual truth that has been confirmed today.

    “Of course there were many competing sects…”

    …but that is, of course, not the whole story.

    “whereas the other has; i.e. Salman Rushdie’s book.”

    LOL, why a fictional book written by a person who is not even an expert of Islam is taken as an authority source is something I find very hard to comprehend.

  44. menj Says:

    @Simon Thong: “menj? LOL All talk, menj~”

    I am in Johor Bahru currently. Come and face me at Johor Bahru Citysquare if you dare, I am here daily at Starbucks from 9am – 6pm. And then we will see who is the one filed with hot air.

  45. Scott Thong Says:

    The problems between the Sunni-Shia are different from the RC-Protestant differences. They aren’t similar to one another.

    Of course, the differences far outweight the similarities, but I was just struck by the few coincidental similarities I listed earlier.

    Your rather silly narrative about Mahadey being a Nubian actually vindicates my point. We both know this is untrue, the person we have in mind is definitely not of Nubian blood or has a wrestler background and hence the story is rejected as fictional (not simply claiming that this person is different from the other guy) outright, right from the start.

    So it is clear that you can grasp that concept.

    Then you can similarly understand how I view stories of infant Isa speaking and childhood Isa turning clay into a living bird – both of which originate from Gnostic legends – and especially claimed to be the Messiah yet not fulfilling any of the Messiah’s major roles as prophesied in hundreds of passages in the Old Testament.

    To me this is pure fiction which excludes Isa from being synonymous with Jesus. I mean, here we have Isa being described as ‘Messiah’ like it’s some sort of nominal title that involves no solid requirements or duties to fulfill, as if the author had no real understanding of what the term entailed. The only way one could get more ignorant is if they were to cite him being Christ but not Messiah (which is what the likely Muslim-created forgery Gospel of Barnabas does cite).

    It’s like if someone were to go around claiming that he is a ‘Keynesian economist’ without ever having read Keynes’ actual work.

    Also: Sulaiman talking with ants and djinns distinguishes him from Solomon. Ibrahim attempting to sacrifice Ishak’s brother Ismail has no greater overarching meaning or foreshadowing, as opposed to Abraham attempting to sacrifice Ishmael’s brother Isaac.

    There are so many parallels between God as described in the Qur’an and Bible, the Jesus of the Qur’an and the Bible, and Mary of the Qur’an and the Bible. They are undoubtedly the same person. Your disagreement on details does not invalidate this.

    The reverse is true. There are so many differences, especially in attributes and personality, that they cannot be the same person.

    To use my Mahathir example again, it’s like a historian claiming that this once-Prime Minister of Malaysia was famously supportive of Jews and absolutely adored Lee Kuan Yew.

    “When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read “O sister of Harun” (i.e. Maryam) in the Qur’an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah’s Messenger(P) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them.” (Sahih Muslim – Hadith No.5326).

    Nice roll to save attempt, bringing up a hitherto unheard of sister of Maryam when called out.

    Oh yes, Jesus PBUH did warn of false prophets…but he was not referring to Muhammad PBUH at all. On the other hand, he clearly proclaimed the coming of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH as the “Paralektos” of the future.

    menj, menj. You’ve chided me for silliness and childishness, yet you cling to that highly untenable argument?

    I’ll cite just one attribute of the Parakletos that I teased loop endlessly about: The Parakletos will be in us. Since Muhammad was flesh and bone (not spirit, another trait of the true Parakletos), we have to watch out for something like this:

    And not just one of us, but every one of us!!!

    Funny how you will tactlessly bludgeon the parts of the Bible you disagree as ‘the corrupted (un)Holy Babble’, yet jump at the chance to use other parts if they will aid your cause.

  46. menj Says:

    @Scott Thong:

    “Of course, the differences far outweight the similarities, but I was just struck by the few coincidental similarities I listed earlier.”

    The historical context and the motivation for the differences between the Sunni-Shia are very different from the Catholics-Protestants. No similarities.

    “Then you can similarly understand how I view stories of infant Isa speaking and childhood Isa turning clay into a living bird”

    The “gnostic” Mss which you are referring to is far more authentic than the NT texts which you claim to be “inspired”. In any case, such stories are usually influenced BY the Qur’an, and not the other way around.

    “To me this is pure fiction which excludes Isa from being synonymous with Jesus.”

    It is only “pure fiction” because it is not in the text of the current Bible, and since you believe that whatever is in the Bible is true because it is the Bible and it says so, that is not evidence. You are going to have to do better than dictating the “sola scriptura” mantra to me.

    “here we have Isa being described as ‘Messiah’ like it’s some sort of nominal title”

    He is the Messiah and it is affirmed in the Qur’an as such many times, there isn’t any question about that. What we differ essentially is on the role of what the title entails. You believe that the title comes with Godhood, but the Islamic view of the title is similar to the Jewish one.

    “Also: Sulaiman talking with ants and djinns distinguishes him from Solomon. Ibrahim attempting to sacrifice Ishak’s brother Ismail has no greater overarching meaning or foreshadowing, as opposed to Abraham attempting to sacrifice Ishmael’s brother Isaac.”

    Goes back again to the fallacious belief you hold, i.e. the Bible is true because it says so, and whatever that is not in the Bible is false. Sorry, but that kind of line is only suitable for Sunday school children, not thinking adults with rational justification for their beliefs.

    “Nice roll to save attempt, bringing up a hitherto unheard of sister of Maryam when called out.”

    It seems that you don’t have any more excuses to respond to the Qur’an calling Mary “the sister of Aaron” (not a literal sister, every Muslim knows that). So is Jesus literally the “son of David”? Because that is something you are accusing the Qur’an of, i.e. taking titles literally, when we both know that is not the case.

    “menj, menj. You’ve chided me for silliness and childishness, yet you cling to that highly untenable argument?”

    Nice try at the childish Alien photo, but we both know what Paralektos means. As for why I am using the Bible to justify some Islamic truths, it is because though we both know that the textual authenticity of the Old and New Testaments are corrupted right to its core, there are still some truth preserved in it which has escaped the attention of its scribes and hence remained as testimony to the arrival of Muhammad, upon whom be peace.

  47. Zack T Says:

    The following articles shows evidence which are contrary to your claim, i.e. that the Jews never called anyone brother or sister unless they meant it literally:

    Trying to explain Jewish culture with an Arabic text that came hundreds of miles from Israel?
    Aside from your Islamic sources, there is no historical support of such usage of ‘brother’/’sister’ by the Jews… None.

    Whereas there is historical support for usage of ‘sons’ and ‘daughters’… and this usage does not imply or suggest or automatically validate the usage of ‘brothers’/’sisters’…
    cause one is meant for descent, whereas the other, according to Muhammad, is of…. I don know what.

    Definitely I do. See Qur’an, 1: 1 – 7

    You blasphemer! How dare you call Allah ‘father’ when he is a father to no one?

    Whereas my God is the Father to His people, and we His children.
    John 6:39-40, Jesus says, “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
    For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

    Whether whore or whores, it doesn’t matter. Still whores riding on mythical animals, LOL. I doubt a dragon will be popping up anytime soon in the future.

    Go ahead and doubt, ye of little ability to read or count. =)

    Might want to read Bart D. Ehrman, Bruce Metzger and many other Christian textual criticism experts and scholars who all say the same thing: that the OT and the NT has been tampered with by various scribes. The Qur’an simply states a factual truth that has been confirmed today.

    I’ll take them seriously, if you’d take them seriously if they used the same methods to study your Quran and its history.. Haha. I doubt their conclusion of the Quran will be any different from theirs of the bible.

  48. Zack T Says:

    The “gnostic” Mss which you are referring to is far more authentic than the NT texts which you claim to be “inspired”. In any case, such stories are usually influenced BY the Qur’an, and not the other way around.

    Wow… manuscripts that are dated earliest some centuries after Jesus left the earth are more authentic compared to the NT texts that are merely a few decades after Jesus…
    And these same manuscripts are actually ‘inspired’ by the Quran that comes some more centuries after it.
    Incredible!! It’s unfathomable!

    I’ve had enough of menj’s art of inconsistencies and spew of ignorant falsehoods.
    You guys have fun talking sense to the one who has none.
    I shall be the ‘ghost’ reading… for now.

  49. Scott Thong Says:

    The historical context and the motivation for the differences between the Sunni-Shia are very different from the Catholics-Protestants. No similarities. – menj

    Fine, no point in belaboring the issue.

    The “gnostic” Mss which you are referring to is far more authentic than the NT texts which you claim to be “inspired”. In any case, such stories are usually influenced BY the Qur’an, and not the other way around.

    Really? That same Gnosticism which traces its roots back to early or even pre-Christianity, whose numbers were drastically reduced by the advent of Islam?

    Ah, but I forget, time does not flow in a linear fashion, hence time travel is possible (ref: First Crusade being to blame despite 461 preceding years of Muslim invasions). Hiro Nakamura is a shirk-practising kuffar after all.

    It is only “pure fiction” because it is not in the text of the current Bible, and since you believe that whatever is in the Bible is true because it is the Bible and it says so, that is not evidence. You are going to have to do better than dictating the “sola scriptura” mantra to me.

    Ah, but do you do any different than dictate the perfect narrative of the Quran to me?

    He is the Messiah and it is affirmed in the Qur’an as such many times, there isn’t any question about that. What we differ essentially is on the role of what the title entails. You believe that the title comes with Godhood, but the Islamic view of the title is similar to the Jewish one.

    Then pray tell, what is the Islamic = Jewish view? What does the term even translate to – dictionary definition style? And will your answer involve citing the same ‘corrupted (un)Holy Babble’ which is the source of the Jewish view? Or maybe you have some other sources for the Jewish view?

    See, that is the difficulty that comes from believing that the Bible is corrupted, but not actually knowing which parts exactly.

    It seems that you don’t have any more excuses to respond to the Qur’an calling Mary “the sister of Aaron” (not a literal sister, every Muslim knows that). So is Jesus literally the “son of David”? Because that is something you are accusing the Qur’an of, i.e. taking titles literally, when we both know that is not the case.

    Hadith No.5326 nowhere clearly states that ‘sister is a figurative term’, only that her brother was named after someone from bygone times. Or do you mean some other passage?

    Nice try at the childish Alien photo, but we both know what Paralektos means.

    Do we now?

    Parakletos is translated as comforter/advocate/counselor. This is but the definition – we now must go into the details and descriptors. To name but a few:

    In John 14:17, the Parakletos cannot be seen – literally, cannot be perceived with the eyes. So we can’t see him now, but back in the day was Mohammad invisible? Did he teach and command from inside a lightless cave so that no one ever saw his face? Current practise of issuing death fatwas on anyone who draws an image of Mohammad not counted, of course.

    Further along in John 14:17, the Parakletos lives with us and is in us – turning my head around right now, I don’t see Mohammad standing next to me. I’m pretty sure he isn’t a tenant in my house either.

    In John 15:26, the Parakletos is explained to be spirit, again by no definition something physical or corporeal that can be visually perceived. I somewhat doubt an incorporeal spirit can die from poison either.

    And even if Mohammad somehow fulfilled it for me (just turned around again, still nothing), that leaves the 2 billion other Christians of various denominations and 1.6 billion Muslims being left out.

    These are but the strongest, most unambiguous attributes that Mohammad does not match. A literal spirit from and of God, which is what we believe, does fit the bill.

    We could go on to the other attributes, which are more debatable – but that would be superfluous overkill after these three.

    I’m thinking that similar to the Messiah matter above, all you have is an isolated title, separated from all context and devoid of any attributes or concrete details. It’s even worse than the Messiah matter, since Mohammad never even claimed to be the Parakletos promised by Jesus.

    it is because though we both know that the textual authenticity of the Old and New Testaments are corrupted right to its core

    I don’t know that, so please don’t try that sort of appeal.

    I do know of accusations against the textual authenticity, to which I contend that the raw manuscripts that modern Bibles and revisions are based on are all there to be cross examined.

    I even did a comparison over 2300 years, because I was curious to know whether they really matched word for word as claimed. Even a Hebrew-illiterate layman like me can do a letter by letter comparison, what more a trained and experienced expert?

    Soooooo… Where are those ancient copies of Quranic passages for us to cross check against the modern ones? Part of the biosphere I suppose, having been absorbed by some plant in the form of CO2 after that bonfire?

  50. Zack T Says:

    Soooooo… Where are those ancient copies of Quranic passages for us to cross check against the modern ones? Part of the biosphere I suppose, having been absorbed by some plant in the form of CO2 after that bonfire?

    The oldest Quran, that I’m aware of…
    I think some people call this the Sana’a manuscript… I could be mistaken.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y40X6ykSQlE

  51. Scott Thong Says:

    Here’s the thing about the Bible being corrupted, edited, changed, redacted, whatever… The argument that it was changed to remove passages pointing to Mohammad is wholly untenable.

    Why? Simply because Mohammad only arrived on the scene around 620 A.D. Whereas the ancient manuscripts of the Bible that we can use for comparison against modern Bibles date from long before that period.

    The Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus are both from around 300 AD and contain the New Testament.

    The Masoretic texts is as early as 300 AD, and the Septuagint is from between 200 B.C. to zero B.C., and contain the Old Testament.

    The Codex Amiatinus from 700 AD has both the Old and New Testaments, but for the purposes of my argument here will be set aside as it is not earlier than 600 A.D.

    Go into partial manuscripts, and we have literally tens of thousands of manuscripts with portions of the New Testament dating to as early as 125 A.D to 150 A.D. (the Rylands fragment which contains John 18:31-33, meaning it is maybe 35 years after John first compiled his account).

    We also have various fragments with Old Testament passages, the most famous of which are of course those found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (with the aforementioned basically complete book of Isaiah).

    So here’s the premise: How could the Jews from as far back as 300 B.C. (and Christians some time later) know that, one day in the far future, someone would appear and usurp their position as the keepers of God’s word – and then hunt down every copy of their scriptures to change them by removing all references to him?

    OWAIT, I forgot, Hiro Nakamura! Darn him and his Elders of Zion masters, always messing up the space-time continuum on the Crusades, gnostics and now this! Darn him I say!!! /sarc sarc sarc sarc SARC

    Or maybe the 600-800 A.D. Jews and Christians conspired to change or destroy every single fragment in existence in order to have their new, Mohammad-less version be unchallenged – including the tiny ones, hidden ones, ones in Greek/Latin/Aramaic/Hebrew/Arabic/Syrian, and across Europe/Asia/Africa – by getting all the various competing denominations, churches, sects, cults, hermits and wanderers from across the Roman Catholics, Byzantines, Jews and independents who just happen to hate-each-other-to-the-point-of-war to work together as one.

    Seriously, that would be a bigger miracle than parting a sea.

    So whatever compiling, editing and removal was done during the first compiling of the Bible may be claimed by secular textual critics, their arguments in no way lend weight to the Islam-relevant version of the accusation.

  52. Simon Thong Says:

    @Simon Thong: “menj? LOL All talk, menj~”

    I am in Johor Bahru currently. Come and face me at Johor Bahru Citysquare if you dare, I am here daily at Starbucks from 9am – 6pm. And then we will see who is the one filed with hot air.

    Wahaha, at starbucks all day!So middle-class! My U friends would shout, Boooouuurrrgeoooois!!!

    Ready to pop over to Spore to avoid the dirt and crime of JB? how do I identify you? in a pair of jeans and a teeshirt, with someone in a burqa?

    And why do I want to see you? fisticuffs, is it? eyeball to eyeball confrontation?

    Got your goat, did I? LOL

  53. Simon Thong Says:

    menj – My father is Javanese and my mother is half-Chinese. Any further questions?

    Wow, got some chinese in him! That is the source of your intelligence, so don’t lose it.

  54. Simon Thong Says:

    The Sunni sect of Islam comprises the majority of all Muslims (about 90%). It is broken into FOUR similar schools of thought (madhhabs) which interpret specific pieces of Islamic practice. They are named after their founders Maliki, Shafi’i, Hanafi, and Hanbali. Each school of thought DIFFERS slightly on fiqh (thoughts on how to practise Islam) although all accept the fundamentals contained within the Holy Quran.

    And he would have us think that all sunnis are sunnis.

  55. Simon Thong Says:

    # menj Says:
    April 15, 11 at 4:11 pm

    @Simon Thong: “menj? LOL All talk, menj~”

    I am in Johor Bahru currently. Come and face me at Johor Bahru Citysquare if you dare, I am here daily at Starbucks from 9am – 6pm. And then we will see who is the one filed with hot air.

    Does your imam know you sit there and miss Friday prayers at the mosque?

  56. Simon Thong Says:

    from END TIME wikipeadia
    In Sunni Islam, which is followed by the majority of Muslims. The appearance of the Mahdi as the final Muslim Caliph and the descending of the prophet Jesus in his time. There are both major and minor signs of the end times.
    …………………………
    The Major Signs:

    Although they appear here in no particular order, it is important to point out that Prophet Muhammad said that these last, major signs will follow each other like pearls falling off of a necklace…

    1. Masih ad-Dajjal (The AntiChrist)
    2. The Mahdi
    3. The appearance of Isa al-Masih (Jesus Christ), the son of Mary (peace be upon him)
    4. Ya’juj and Ma’juj (Gog and Magog)
    5. The destruction of the Ka’bah and the recovery of its treasure
    6. Emergence of the Beast
    7. The smoke
    8. Three major landslides (one in the East, one in the West, and one on the Arabian peninsula)
    9. The wind will take the souls of the believers
    10. The rising of the sun from the west
    11. The fire will drive the people to their final gathering place
    12. Three blasts of the trumpet (fear & terror, death, resurrection)

  57. loop Says:

    ‘The Major Signs’

    No more birth pains but… DOOOMED

  58. 2012 | 666 prophecies | Doomsday | Obama | world war 3 predictions Says:

    […] What would happen if as you were reading this…A new World War started? What would you do? What would your country do? See clips of different movies (you could proberly guess what) and view what would most likely by the outcome of the next World War. It will happen one day…Could it be tomorrow? The song is Requiem For A Dream by Clint Mansell and is widely used thrughout the film industry. Additionally you can look at this related post: http://fourcoloursandthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/2011-oscar-predictions/ For more on this read: http://ampersandanonymous.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/entry-13/ Additionally you can look at this related post: http://derhonigmannsagt.wordpress.com/2011/01/28/wo-ist-obama%C2%B4s-geburtsurkunde/ Additionally you can check out this related post: http://thetruthbehindthescenes.wordpress.com/2011/02/07/ufos-in-formation-over-mexico-febr-6-2011/ Additionally you can look at this related post: http://agoldendream.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/black-swan-letdown/ Anyone can also check out this related post: http://htohe.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/requiem-for-a-dream-book/ On the same topic: http://3putt.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/movie-awards/ A great related post about this: http://eclecticwoman.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/native-music-a-youth-project/ Additionally you can check out this related post: http://arthuride.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/resurrection-immortality-trinity/ Also you can read this related blog page: http://quieromillamada.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/requiem-for-a-dream/ Also you can check out this related blog post: http://aznbadger.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/thoughts-on-zac-snyders-superman/ For more on this topic you can read: http://prushton.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/why-the-world-is-probably-not-going-to-end-on-may-21st/ Make sure to also read: https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2011/04/09/first-quarter-2011-end-times-checklist/ […]

  59. Scott Thong Says:

    Looking back at an old post, I rediscovered countless copy-pastes by mega/lord apparently lifted wholesale from a polemics site.

    I also rediscovered these interesting ones by chandran, from here downwards:

    https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/01/30/was-christ-crucified-deedat-vs-mcdowell/#comment-29398

    This one on battle was especially interesting:

    https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/01/30/was-christ-crucified-deedat-vs-mcdowell/#comment-29407

  60. Pete Says:

    America will not take part because it will be destroyed.

    Just search about “Skull and Bones” the Yale secret society that Bush (and many other powerful people) belong too, they were behind all socialist revolutions of the XX century and almost all wars. Search “Antony Sutton” and watch his videos and read his books.

    Interview Stanley Monteith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqEPow9KnqU
    Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GhPsJCXPqY&feature=related
    Skull and Bones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRzPOL9wGBk&feature=related
    Lecture in 1975: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-KtjSdowss&feature=related

  61. kerry Says:

    i am roman catholic. i professed my belief in the true church the roman catholic church and i got banned from a catholic forum for posting fraud. so i jouned another religous forum and when asked i sead i am roman catholic. then they started to call the vatican thr great lie and on and on. i was prossicuted because i am roman catholic. and my belief in christ teaching. and calld a follower of child molesters. so there it is.. wollfs in sheep clothin running freely on the net. so its here happening now.

  62. Zack T Says:

    then they started to call the vatican thr great lie and on and on. i was prossicuted because i am roman catholic. ~kerry

    Since when are you the Vatican, Kerry?

    And as far as I know, martyrs of Christ do NOT go around looking to be persecuted, just as you seem to be doing right now.

  63. kerry Says:

    martyrs of Christ do NOT go around looking to be persecuted,
    ———————————————————————-

    and when did you become the judge of my character yours speak for it self the way you changed what i ment in my post and what i posted is what i saw not what i created. and right now your a good example of that

  64. Simon Thong Says:

    I went to a school started by the RC church, and the RC brothers who taught us were good people. I’m not RC. I don’t agree that the RC is the great lie or 666. It’s not the true church either. The true church is the believers of Christ all over the world, including true believers in the RC, other churches, etc..Many of those in the RC and other churches may not even be true believers.We won’t know them all until the separation of goats and sheep.

    What is your gripe, kerry? Why are u super-sensitive? I read and re-read Zack T’s comments. They are pretty mild, and he has a point: why do you portray yourself as being persecuted?

    Also, you are not exactly ‘white as snow’. You said: so there it is.. wollfs in sheep clothin running freely on the net. so its here happening now.

    Those are NOT mild words. HERE happening NOW (my stress). Wolves in sheep’s clothing. Who are you talking about? Everyone, the blog writer, commenters? Whoever you are referring to, that’s a strong sweeping statement. I wouldn’t judge your character, merely point out this: if you don’t want to be judged, don’t judge others.

    But you have done so, you have judged others: they are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Then, why are you complaining or upset?

  65. Zack T Says:

    and when did you become the judge of my character yours speak for it self the way you changed what i ment in my post and what i posted is what i saw not what i created. and right now your a good example of that ~kerry

    What did I change regarding your post? What I understood is exactly what you wrote.

    And how about you quote my statement fully?
    “martyrs of Christ do NOT go around looking to be persecuted, just as you seem to be doing RIGHT NOW.”

    Yes, kerry, I AM judging your character based on what you wrote and said.
    Is something wrong with me judging your character and who you seem to be?
    How about you and your ‘judgment’?
    Kerry said, “i professed my belief in THE TRUE CHURCH the roman catholic church”
    Is that not making judgment against all other ‘churches’ and naming them all non-RC church as false?
    So, who was the one playing judge here?

  66. Ron Says:

    and yet another turn the other cheek moment slips away… 8)

  67. Simon Thong Says:

    The people who tell Christians to turn the other cheek are the people who want to slap Christians, to take advantage of them.

  68. Scott Thong Says:

    Remember that one only has two cheeks.

    And as I like to say, “Chuck Norris turns the other cheek… To deliver a spinning roundhouse kick.”

  69. Zack T Says:

    And I don’t recall what Jesus said about ‘turn the other cheek’ was to be taken metaphorically…
    I don’t see how being criticize can be seen/imagined as being hit on ONE SIDE of the cheek… let alone allow someone to turn “the other cheek”.

  70. Ron Says:

    “And as I like to say, ‘Chuck Norris turns the other cheek… To deliver a spinning roundhouse kick.'” –Scott

    Ah, so your day-to-day actions are informed by the phrase WWCND (What would Chuck Norris Do)?

    Though that appears to be somewhat at odds with what you wrote here — https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/turn-other-cheek-civility — don’t ya think?

  71. Ron Says:

    “And I don’t recall what Jesus said about ‘turn the other cheek’ was to be taken metaphorically… I don’t see how being criticize can be seen/imagined as being hit on ONE SIDE of the cheek… let alone allow someone to turn “the other cheek”. — Zack

    So then I take it you interpret the phrase literally, i.e., only a physical assault (and only on the right cheek) merits turning of the other cheek?

    However, please note that your interpretation conflicts with Scott’s opinion (see link above), whose LTE ends with:

    “We may have to put up with a few metaphorical slaps, but perhaps – just perhaps – we can influence others to try out this unusual custom called civility.”

    With so many Christians granting so many differing interpretations, it’s hard to know what the truth actually is.

  72. Scott Thong Says:

    Have I been uncivil then, Ron?

    Differing interpretation and opinion is a right of every believer (at least for Protestants – which is how we ended up, well, protest-ants).

  73. simonthongwh Says:

    But then, what would Ron know about the right of Christians to have a personal faith and a personal theology that is, nevertheless, linked to and informed by the wider church? Belonging to the wider non-church church of atheists/agnostics, he has to toe the line. And what’s the missionary thing to do on behalf of his non-church church? Attack christians. Attack! Attack!! ATTACK!!!

    No meed to ask if believers have a meaningful or happyu life. They don’t! They can’t!

    Btw, if we were to take a commenter’s words as indicative of his views, then I would have to conclude that Ron’s view is extremely sour. Sour grapes?

  74. Ron Says:

    If the Bible is supposed to represent God’s revealed truth and unequivocal, absolute moral guide for all of humanity, then one would expect a congruence of opinion that results in unanimity, rather than the sectarian divergence we see today. To suggest that the absolute truth is open to competing personal theologies is to concede belief in relative morality… the very concept which Christians constantly rail against.

  75. simonthongwh Says:

    How naive you are. It’s like talking to a child. Leave it, Ron. Try the grapes IF YOU CAN GET THEM. They are not sour.

  76. Zack T Says:

    Ron,

    Your statement assumes that:

    1- finite humans will be able to fully comprehend the infinite God’s message 100% without error….

    2 – God intended for uniformity rather than individually and diversity… i.e. Every believer is part of the body of Christ, where not all are just hands, or all are eyes, or all are fingers.

  77. simonthongwh Says:

    Why should Ron demand uniformity in Christian belief and faith when he believes in evolution, the theory of the adaptation (and therefore, diversity) of species?

  78. Ron Says:

    “Your statement assumes that:

    1- finite humans will be able to fully comprehend the infinite God’s message 100% without error….”

    Why would an omnipotent and omniscient deity create beings incapable of comprehending the message without error? That would make him inept.

    “2 – God intended for uniformity rather than individually and diversity… i.e. Every believer is part of the body of Christ, where not all are just hands, or all are eyes, or all are fingers.”

    The whole purpose of enacting laws and moral codes is to ensure uniform behavior. Otherwise, what’s the point?

  79. Zack T Says:

    Why would an omnipotent and omniscient deity create beings incapable of comprehending the message without error? That would make him inept. ~ Ron

    God create men perfectly… Then men fell from God’s holy glory because of Adam’s sin.
    Now there are many things that men cannot see, hear, felt, sense, think, understand, etc.

    The whole purpose of enacting laws and moral codes is to ensure uniform behavior. Otherwise, what’s the point? ~Ron

    Uniform behavior? How does behavior equal to uniform belief or uniform practice?

  80. Ron Says:

    “God create men perfectly… Then men fell from God’s holy glory because of Adam’s sin.
    Now there are many things that men cannot see, hear, felt, sense, think, understand, etc.”

    No matter how you slice it, the fault rests with the designer, not the creation. If I install software that crashes my system, I blame the programmer, not the computer. If I buy a product that malfunctions, I blame the manufacturer, not the product.

    “Uniform behavior? How does behavior equal to uniform belief or uniform practice?”

    One naturally follows the other. A red octagon is recognized as a stop sign by drivers the world over, regardless of the language that appears on its face — no interpretation is required. If fallible man is capable of creating unambiguous international symbols, I would expect nothing less from an infallible god.

  81. Zack T Says:

    No matter how you slice it, the fault rests with the designer, not the creation. If I install software that crashes my system, I blame the programmer, not the computer. If I buy a product that malfunctions, I blame the manufacturer, not the product. ~Ron

    Again, fallacious comparison…
    It is more accurate to compare Adam’s sin to that of, what they would call, ‘user error’, using something outside of its designated function/operation or failing to use a particular product according to proper instructions.

    One naturally follows the other. A red octagon is recognized as a stop sign by drivers the world over, regardless of the language that appears on its face — no interpretation is required. If fallible man is capable of creating unambiguous international symbols, I would expect nothing less from an infallible god. ~Ron

    No need for interpretation?

    What about signaling when making a turn?
    How far before the turn does one turn on his signal?
    Does he use his left or right hand to do it?
    Does he need to brake when he is making the signal?
    When halted at the place of turning (red light or oncoming traffic), does one leave the signal on or can he turn it off; especially since it is a one way turning?
    What about those who use their hands instead as signal?
    Does he need to look at the mirror to check for other cars when signaling?

  82. Zack T Says:

    Just to add on my ‘signal’ point…

    Uniform behavior does not equal or lead to uniform belief…
    Uniform belief does lead to uniform behavior, but not necessarily uniform practice.

  83. simonthongwh Says:

    Ron – A red octagon is recognized as a stop sign by drivers the world over, regardless of the language that appears on its face — no interpretation is required.

    Now I know you really like to quibble; and make yourself look and sound STUPID.

    That red octagonal sign requires interpretation. Children LEARN the MEANING of that red sign. Learner-drivers also LEARN what it MEANS. It also has a word on it: STOP. In Malaysia it has BERHENTI. Mexico? ALTO.

    Such fallibility on your part, man, never ceases to amaze me. The Chinese would say that you are trying to argue a dead dog back to life; or trying to sing a bull up a tree.

  84. Ron Says:

    “Again, fallacious comparison…
    It is more accurate to compare Adam’s sin to that of, what they would call, ‘user error’, using something outside of its designated function/operation or failing to use a particular product according to proper instructions.”

    There’s nothing fallacious about the comparison. If an omnipotent and omniscient God created humans, he is ultimately responsible for how they operate. If they make mistakes, whether by design or otherwise, he should have known this in advance, and either aborted the project, or corrected the design.

    “What about signaling when making a turn? How far before the turn does one turn on his signal? […]”

    In most countries, all of these topics would be covered in the drivers manual issued by the state licensing agency, and applicants would be thoroughly tested on this knowledge prior to receiving a drivers permit.

  85. Ron Says:

    “That red octagonal sign requires interpretation. Children LEARN the MEANING of that red sign. Learner-drivers also LEARN what it MEANS. It also has a word on it: STOP. In Malaysia it has BERHENTI. Mexico? ALTO.”

    Of course you learn the meaning of the sign. Duh!! But that wasn’t the point. Once learned, the meaning of the sign remains the same in every country, regardless of the language appearing on the face thereof (a point I made very explicit in my previous post).

  86. Zack T Says:

    There’s nothing fallacious about the comparison. If an omnipotent and omniscient God created humans, he is ultimately responsible for how they operate. If they make mistakes, whether by design or otherwise, he should have known this in advance, and either aborted the project, or corrected the design. ~Ron

    Yes there is. You made that mistake again.
    The use of a saloon car is to drive on a tarmac road… but if a person drives it offroad and through a jungle and the car is wrecked… does he blame it on the manufacturer for knowing that people may intend to drive the car off-road and yet failed to design the saloon car for such occasions?
    No, again, God designed man, gave instructions, and man failed to keep to the instructions. ‘User error’.

    In most countries, all of these topics would be covered in the drivers manual issued by the state licensing agency, and applicants would be thoroughly tested on this knowledge prior to receiving a drivers permit. ~Ron

    Funny… “most” countries?
    And two, why then is the behavior of ‘signaling’ in Malaysia way different compared to in Australia?
    It’s the same thing, signaling before a turn… Why the difference?

  87. Ron Says:

    “Yes there is. You made that mistake again.
    The use of a saloon car is to drive on a tarmac road… but if a person drives it offroad and through a jungle and the car is wrecked… does he blame it on the manufacturer for knowing that people may intend to drive the car off-road and yet failed to design the saloon car for such occasions?”

    The trouble with your analogy is that at the cosmological level God is both the designer and the end user; thus the problem remains with him..

    “No, again, God designed man, gave instructions, and man failed to keep to the instructions. ‘User error’.”

    Once again, God supposedly designed both the hardware (humans) and the software (moral code), so a failure at either point indicates a faulty design.

    “Funny… ‘most’ countries?”

    Yes, well the underlying premise is that we’re discussing countries with automobiles, roads, and functional government authorities… so war-torn nations, remote villages, etc, would be excluded.

    “And two, why then is the behavior of ‘signaling’ in Malaysia way different compared to in Australia? It’s the same thing, signaling before a turn… Why the difference?”

    You’re missing the forest for the trees by extrapolating way more from the analogy than was intended. In both countries, a stop sign means stop and a signal to turn left means left — behaviors which are clearly understood and expected by competent, law-abiding drivers from either country.

  88. Zack T Says:

    The trouble with your analogy is that at the cosmological level God is both the designer and the end user; thus the problem remains with him.. ~Ron

    What? End user? That makes no sense at all.

    Once again, God supposedly designed both the hardware (humans) and the software (moral code), so a failure at either point indicates a faulty design. ~Ron

    And you’ve forgotten the ‘free will’ equation. God never planned to make ‘will-free’ robots.

    You’re missing the forest for the trees by extrapolating way more from the analogy than was intended. In both countries, a stop sign means stop and a signal to turn left means left — behaviors which are clearly understood and expected by competent, law-abiding drivers from either country. ~Ron

    No, it is just prove of my case..
    “Uniform behavior does not equal or lead to uniform belief (or pratice)…
    Uniform belief does lead to uniform behavior, but not necessarily uniform practice.”

  89. Zack T Says:

    EDIT:

    You’re missing the forest for the trees by extrapolating way more from the analogy than was intended. In both countries, a stop sign means stop and a signal to turn left means left — behaviors which are clearly understood and expected by competent, law-abiding drivers from either country. ~Ron

    And that is proof for my case..
    “Uniform behavior does not equal or lead to uniform belief (or pratice)…
    Uniform belief does lead to uniform behavior, but not necessarily uniform practice.”

  90. simonthongwh Says:

    The man needs to come and live in an Asian country where, often, RED means GO as long as no traffic cops are around. Yellow or ember? Speed up and get across the junction b4 the light turns red. A STOP sign? Does it mean stop? It depends. LOL

  91. Ron Says:

    I don’t need to travel to see traffic scofflaws — got enough of those right where I live.

  92. Ron Says:

    “What? End user? That makes no sense at all.” — Zack

    Isaiah 43:21 – The people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

    Sounds like an end user to me. If he created people who don’t sing his praise, then the problem rests on his shoulders.

    “And you’ve forgotten the ‘free will’ equation. God never planned to make ‘will-free’ robots.”

    As I’ve explained on numerous occasions, a forced choice (obey or die) is not free will. And the Bible is replete with instances where God violated the exercise of man’s free will.

    “Uniform belief does lead to uniform behavior, but not necessarily uniform practice.”

    Exactly — when everyone is on the same page about what the law means, everyone knows what is expected of them and others. Whether or not they actually comply is another story.

  93. Zack T Says:

    Ron… you’ve pretty answered yourself with your last sentence…

    “Exactly — when everyone is on the same page about what the law means, everyone knows what is expected of them and others. Whether or not they actually comply is another story.”

    RE: Forced choice (obey or die)
    Everyone knows you break the law, you get punished… but you are free to break it if you really want to.
    You break God’s law, you go hell… but you are free to break it if you really want to or just don’t like God.

    RE: Uniform belief
    And yet you still have a problem with different sects with different interpretation of God’s word/truth?
    Uniform belief, there is God, and He set some laws.
    Uniform behavior, obey God’s law and glorify God in what ways we can and know how to…
    But practices vary because everyone views things differently… one loves to worship God by singing.. another by spreading His good news… another by preaching His truth.. another by defending the faith and knocking down those who chose to be God’s enemies… another by studying and getting to know His word as best as they can…
    It is not like the different sectarian is due to a difference in belief (exception of course, those false Christian movements who don’t comply to uniform belief in the first place) but just differences in practice.
    So where’s your issue again?

  94. Ron Says:

    “Everyone knows you break the law, you get punished… but you are free to break it if you really want to.”

    The state doesn’t grant you permission to commit murder, and legal statutes aren’t presented as discretionary choices, nor do they pretend to so — they represent clear ultimatums in the tersest sense of the word.

    “And yet you still have a problem with different sects with different interpretation of God’s word/truth?”

    If you can’t reach a uniform conclusion about the precise meaning of a simple phrase like ‘turn the other cheek’ without endless debate, then that represents a failure to launch. Children are taught the meaning of traffic symbols as soon as they are old enough to grasp the concept, and once taught there’s little dissent as to what they represent. You don’t see hundreds of ‘apologetics’ websites devoted to interpreting the true meaning of a stop sign, traffic light, or pedestrian crosswalk.

    “It is not like the different sectarian is due to a difference in belief (exception of course, those false Christian movements who don’t comply to uniform belief in the first place) but just differences in practice.”

    You’re joking, right? And what exactly is a ‘false’ Christian movement? Because invariably the answer will always be that false Christians are any sect which doesn’t subscribe to the same beliefs held by the person being asked that question.

  95. simonthongwh Says:

    Children are taught the meaning of traffic symbols as soon as they are old enough to grasp the concept, and once taught there’s little dissent as to what they represent. You don’t see hundreds of ‘apologetics’ websites devoted to interpreting the true meaning of a stop sign, traffic light, or pedestrian crosswalk.

    Bad analogy. Are there numerous atheists attacking meanings of traffic signs and rule?

  96. Zack T Says:

    Now you’re running in circles, Ron… which I find oddly awkward.

    Yes, the state does not grant permission for anyone (ideally) to do such things.
    But do they forcibly prevent you from being able to do such things?
    I don’t see such things ever done. Is this not still allowing us to be able to break the law?

    And if you want to argue about law, why bring up ‘turn the other cheek’?
    I don’t recall this being a law or part of the ten commandments.

    And what’s more, is a precise meaning of ‘turn the other cheek’ an issue of difference in belief or difference in practice? FYI, I contend it is the latter.

    And um… so now you want to argue about why we are not uniform in belief?
    Um.. because there are those who wish to achieve selfish reasons in their teachings? i.e. no hell, Christ can’t be divine, I want to be God, etc.

    ‘And what exactly is a ‘false’ Christian movement?’
    It’s like a lawyer arguing how one law doesn’t apply to his client and may instead rely on another; i.e. laws against murder versus laws for self-defense. How does one determine which is applicably accurate and true? Context.
    In the case of Christianity, what identifies a ‘false’ Christian cult is how it fits within the context of the rest of the unaltered word of the bible.

    What makes life easier (i guess) is the fact that many false Christian cults altered the bible to include books that were added hundreds to even over a thousand years later; i.e. LDS, JW, Islam, etc.
    None of these religions are internally, doctrinally consistent to begin with or if one studies diligently enough.

    You don’t see hundreds of ‘apologetics’ websites devoted to interpreting the true meaning of a stop sign, traffic light, or pedestrian crosswalk. ~Ron

    But there is something that can and probably is debated.. is whether or not a person or vehicle can run a red light ONLY if there was no oncoming car (a.k.a. empty roads).
    My friend, who completed his driving law test in Australia some time back, was surprised to find out that in Australia, one is allowed to run a red light only if the road was empty or without any other traffic; if it hinders or causes trouble/nuisance to any other road-user.

    Uniform belief, red light bmeans stop. Uniform behaviour, stop when light is red.
    Practice? Run red light when road is clear.
    Hmmmm….

  97. Ron Says:

    “Bad analogy. Are there numerous atheists attacking meanings of traffic signs and rule?”

    No analogy is ever complete, but I think for the purpose of this discussion it comes close enough. The reason we see very few ‘traffic law non-believers’ is because several decades of experience have demonstrated the effectiveness of having uniform traffic rules. Ever witnessed the chaos that ensues when a traffic light goes out during rush-hour?

  98. Zack T Says:

    And yet, there are plenty of critics against how traffic lights should work…
    I am definitely amongst some who criticizes how some of the traffic lights work in some junctions…
    Just as you and atheist keep criticizing how God works.

  99. Scott Thong Says:

    Guys, a warning – due to 100+ daily spam, I may not be able to look through all of them to catch any legit comments. So for the time being, avoid multiple links that may be auto-spammed. Approval Pending should catch them for review, but it’s not perfect.

  100. Ron Says:

    “Yes, the state does not grant permission for anyone (ideally) to do such things. But do they forcibly prevent you from being able to do such things? I don’t see such things ever done. Is this not still allowing us to be able to break the law?” –Zack

    No it’s not. And by nature the penal code will always be a reactionary mechanism, because short of locking everyone up beforehand, there is no practical way to forcibly prevent people from committing a crime.

    “And if you want to argue about law, why bring up ‘turn the other cheek’?
    I don’t recall this being a law or part of the ten commandments.”

    Is it or is it not an instruction attributed to Jesus within the New Testament books of the Bible?

    “In the case of Christianity, what identifies a ‘false’ Christian cult is how it fits within the context of the rest of the unaltered word of the bible.”

    Which immediately raise two problems:

    1) How do you know the text hasn’t been altered?

    2) How do you determine the correct context when that is often the very issue in dispute?

    “But there is something that can and probably is debated.. is whether or not a person or vehicle can run a red light ONLY if there was no oncoming car (a.k.a. empty roads). My friend, who completed his driving law test in Australia some time back, was surprised to find out that in Australia, one is allowed to run a red light only if the road was empty or without any other traffic; if it hinders or causes trouble/nuisance to any other road-user.”

    Sure, and emergency vehicles also have permission to run through traffic lights… with caution… when it’s safe to do so. There will always be exceptions to the rule under specific circumstances; however that does not negate the intended purpose under the general norm.

  101. Zack T Says:

    Reactionary mechanism? No practical way of forcibly prevent people from commiting a crime?
    And yet, you demand God to do such thing, contrary to Him giving us free-will?

    Instruction? Since when is an instruction or a teaching equal to law? Or a sin if I do not comply to it?
    I’ll repeat my earlier asked question, is this a matter of uniform belief or practice? You avoided this question.

    Which immediately raise two problems:

    This will bring us to a whole new line of topic, which I will not indulge in this time.
    If anyone else wants to, they have the free-will to do so.

    There will always be exceptions to the rule under specific circumstances; however that does not negate the intended purpose under the general norm.

    But my given example was not ‘an exception’, unlike ambulances or police cars or fire trucks, that hold higher priority due to urgency…
    Mine was a fine example of non-uniform practice despite of uniform belief and behavior with other countries or states..

  102. Ron Says:

    “And yet, you demand God to do such thing, contrary to Him giving us free-will?”

    Are you obtuse or deliberately argumentative. Divine will and free will are mutually contradictory concepts.

    “Instruction? Since when is an instruction or a teaching equal to law? Or a sin if I do not comply to it?”

    Now who’s being the lawyer? Christians profess to follow the teachings of Christ.

    “I’ll repeat my earlier asked question, is this a matter of uniform belief or practice? You avoided this question.”

    For Christians, it’s neither. Whenever questioned, believers always seem have a multitude of excuses for why these instructions don’t apply to them personally.

    “But my given example was not ‘an exception’, unlike ambulances or police cars or fire trucks, that hold higher priority due to urgency…
    Mine was a fine example of non-uniform practice despite of uniform belief and behavior with other countries or states..”

    Really? From you example:

    “…in Australia, one is allowed to run a red light only if the road was empty or without any other traffic; if it hinders or causes trouble/nuisance to any other road-user.”

    Sounds like an exceptional circumstance to me.

  103. Zack T Says:

    Are you obtuse or deliberately argumentative.

    I guess it would take one to recognize one.

    Divine will and free will are mutually contradictory concepts.

    Divine will does not equal will-free nor forced will, just as a set law does not mean such.
    Clearly at this point, your understanding of ‘divine will’ versus ‘free will’ is very different from mine, and frankly, yours is due to misunderstanding or misapplication, I’m sure (based on our previous discussions).

    Now who’s being the lawyer? Christians profess to follow the teachings of Christ.

    Uhh… Again, since when does teaching equal law? I seriously don’t see what you’re getting at.

    For Christians, it’s neither. Whenever questioned, believers always seem have a multitude of excuses for why these instructions don’t apply to them personally.

    What? I earlier contended that the ‘turn your other cheek’ is a matter of practice (and not belief) and now you’re saying we Christians believe it’s neither? Are you actually reading what I wrote or even keeping up with discussion here?

    And again, you make it seem as though this teaching was made into law somehow.

    Really? From you example:

    Sounds like an exceptional circumstance to me.

    I’ve stated the exception: “ambulances or police cars or fire trucks, that hold higher priority due to urgency”.. for obvious reasons, normal civillian drivers and pedestrians like you or me hold no higher priority over the law that declares red light to mean stop.

    But, regardless whether this is considered an exception or otherwise, it still holds true to my case; it is a difference in practice despite uniform belief as compared to other countries.
    Because, frankly, not every country with the same law would hold to this ‘exception’.

    Clearly, there is no debate over this matter… Uniform belief does not equal uniform practice.
    You yourself made that statement, “Exactly — when everyone is on the same page about what the law means, everyone knows what is expected of them and others. Whether or not they actually comply is another story.”

  104. simonthongwh Says:

    My quarrel is with how traffic cops DON’T help ease traffic flow when traffic lights break down. Instead, they hide farther down the road and come out of hiding to give a summons to drivers who manage to get through just before the light turns red.

  105. simonthongwh Says:

    @Ron: Frankly, while I know that no analogy is perfect, some are better than others. Your analogy is among the worst.

    I have never held to the concept of free will in its absolute sense. It is relative to God’s Will. Free will and God’s Will are not two equal “forces”. The former exists in the context of the latter. Now, Ron, feel free to attack this. It’s better than attacking a straw man. That’s what you have been doing, attacking something OUT THERE that you think Christianity is.

    Christianity is what you have been attacking but we have moved away from that static entity you try to tear down (and failed, right? Christians are a tenacious bunch. Some would call what you do persecution though I call it an engagement of the mind.) We have moved farther along, bringing with us almost everything precious and essential. But we are not the first. Many had done that before us, responding to the leading of the Holy Spirit as we read the Scriptures; and Paul was among the first. He is different but just as true to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Diversity and Unity. Unity-in-diversity; diversity-in-unity.

    Christianity is alive and involves individuals and groups and organizations sharing in their individual and collective RESPONSES to the Bible, so there are varieties of Christians. There are also varieties of interpretations. Some Christians won’t accept that, that there is variety as well as uniformity. Their minds can’t hold two seemingly equal and opposite concepts together, that we have uniformity-in-diversity and diversity-in-uniformity. But then, atheists seem to have the same problem as some Christians. Is your mind able to do that, hold together what seems to be equally and mutually contradictory concepts, Ron?

    Atheists should also have realized by now that they have before them a Christianity that is alive, one that is characterized by variety yet remains sufficiently constant in the center to remain true to Scripture. Do you? Atheists are still attacking the Christianity they knew, and have fallen far behind the Christianity that is moving ahead. Is this what you are doing, Ron?

    Zack rightly pointed to at least one part of the debate: “Clearly at this point, your understanding of ‘divine will’ versus ‘free will’ is very different from mine, and frankly, yours is due to misunderstanding or misapplication, I’m sure (based on our previous discussions).”

    That is what you have been doing, Ron. Zack has pointed to the diversity of Christian belief (“Uniform belief does not equal uniform practice.”) I wish to point to the variety and diversity of believers in response to the Scriptures under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

    Come back from back there, where you have been stuck, criticizing that Christianity back there, one that I and many others have moved away from. Yet I still remain Christian. Could you still remain atheist if you were to grapple with the real issues of present day Christianity?

  106. simonthongwh Says:

    Correction: Zack has pointed to the diversity of Christian belief (“Uniform belief does not equal uniform practice.”)

    It should read: Zack has pointed to the uniformity of belief.

  107. Ron Says:

    “Divine will does not equal will-free nor forced will, just as a set law does not mean such. Clearly at this point, your understanding of ‘divine will’ versus ‘free will’ is very different from mine, and frankly, yours is due to misunderstanding or misapplication, I’m sure (based on our previous discussions).” — Zack

    My understanding of the concept is informed by their common definitions.

    Divine Will: predeterminism: predestination; in Christian theology, the concept of God as having a plan for mankind, and as such desires to see such plan fulfilled. (various sources)

    Predeterminism is the idea that every event is caused, not simply by the immediately prior events, but by a causal chain of events that goes back well before recent events. For example, one’s personal characteristics are predetermined by heredity, by a chain of events going back before one’s birth. (Wikipedia)

    Predestination: the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation (Webster)

    Free will: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention (Webster, Dictionary.com, etc.)

    “Uhh… Again, since when does teaching equal law? I seriously don’t see what you’re getting at.”

    Matthew 5:39 “But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

    Does that sound like a polite, take-it-or-leave-it suggestion, or a prime directive?

    “And again, you make it seem as though this teaching was made into law somehow.”

    So in other words, unless Jesus’ instructions are prefaced with “Thou shalt” or “Thou shalt not” they can be safely ignored?

    “What? I earlier contended that the ‘turn your other cheek’ is a matter of practice (and not belief) and now you’re saying we Christians believe it’s neither?”

    Quite simply, I’m saying that Christians who demonstrate an unwillingness to practice what they preach probably don’t put much stock in their professed beliefs either.

    James 2:26 26 “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.”

    “But, regardless whether this is considered an exception or otherwise, it still holds true to my case; it is a difference in practice despite uniform belief as compared to other countries.”

    I know you’re anxious to continue beating your straw man, but my analogy was meant to illustrate one thing: traffic control devices mean the same thing to every road user in every nation with traffic laws, and extenuating circumstances aside, the standards transcend international boundaries — stop means stop, yield means yield, and speed limits indicate how fast you are permitted to drive.

    If only the ‘divine word of God’ were that concise and easy to comprehend.

  108. Zack T Says:

    I shall not go into the ‘divine will’ vs ‘free will’ topic, lest we add a whole new wall of comments..

    Does that sound like a polite, take-it-or-leave-it suggestion, or a prime directive? ~Ron

    And so it becomes law? Again, I don’t see how a teaching becomes a law?
    So, when a baby is potty-trained to poo in a bowl, thus it is a law that he/she poos in a bowl?
    If broken, is it punishable by the government in form of imprisonment or fine?
    What about when a teacher tells you that you are supposed to write an English statement this way? If you don’t, are you then punished for ‘breaking’ the teacher’s teaching?
    Teachings and laws are just not the same.

    It is an instruction, but it is not law, Ron.

    So in other words, unless Jesus’ instructions are prefaced with “Thou shalt” or “Thou shalt not” they can be safely ignored? ~Ron

    Maybe you aren’t aware of this.. but I don’t recall Jesus came to bring more laws for us to follow. He came to set us FREE from the law, so that we are no longer bound by it.
    The law remains in effect, but we are no longer bound to bear the weight of our failure to perfectly keep to it without breaking one of them.

    Quite simply, I’m saying that Christians who demonstrate an unwillingness to practice what they preach probably don’t put much stock in their professed beliefs either. ~Ron

    And who determines what is actually preached in the first place?
    Again, I say, I don’t see that teaching “turn other cheek” to be taken in such a metaphorical manner as you have intended it to be. If a person attacks me as the individual that I am, then I am not to retaliate back.
    But if he tells an outstraight lie or falsehood, I am not to allow that falsehood to stay, but expose it. This is exactly what Jesus did Himself. He was beaten, and insulted, but never retaliate in response to that… but when faced with falsehood, He exposed the nakedness of it and put forward the truth of the matter.

    And as far as I recall, everytime you pull this ‘turn other cheek’ verse out, it is to force us to stay quiet while yourself or others tell a lie or falsehood.

    I know you’re anxious to continue beating your straw man, but my analogy was meant to illustrate one thing: traffic control devices mean the same thing to every road user in every nation with traffic laws, and extenuating circumstances aside, the standards transcend international boundaries — stop means stop, yield means yield, and speed limits indicate how fast you are permitted to drive. ~Ron

    And thus, you failed to realize that that is exactly my point, with the addition that despite the uniform belief, people in the different countries practice the traffic laws differently.
    And that’s the same with Christianity and its many sects (the ones that never altered the Bible, by adding or subtracting to it)..
    Despite our denominations,
    i) we believe the bible is Word of God,
    ii) we believe Jesus is God and divine,
    iii) we believe Jesus came into flesh, died on the cross, buried and then rose from the dead 3 days later,
    iv) we believe that in having faith in Jesus and Him alone, we will be saved and accepted into God’s Heaven.
    But despite the uniform belief (on doctrines that make us Christians), we hold different views on how we are to ‘practice’ our Christian faith; e.g. some are more ritualistic, some are rather legalistic, some are very free-spirited, etc.

    So, where is the divine Word of God not concise with regards to our belief in Christ?

  109. Ron Says:

    “I have never held to the concept of free will in its absolute sense. It is relative to God’s Will. Free will and God’s Will are not two equal “forces”.

    It’s not about your views, or mine; it’s about the common definitions of those concepts (see my reply to Zack above).

    “Now, Ron, feel free to attack this. It’s better than attacking a straw man. That’s what you have been doing, attacking something OUT THERE that you think Christianity is.”

    What I think Christianity is? I spent close to two decades (from about age two to my late teens) absorbing the teachings of an evangelical church (Baptist to be precise). I’ve also attended services at other denominations, studied the tenets of other faiths, read Christian apologetics, and listened to countless debates (both atheist vs. theist and theist vs. other theist). So… If my views are mis-informed, then you’ll have to blame my sources, not willful ignorance.

  110. Zack T Says:

    Oh.. lest I be unclear with my statement (“And who determines what is actually preached in the first place?”)… Allow me to clarify…

    And who determines what is actually preached in the first place?
    You? Me, Simon or Scott? Other people? Other books? Christians? Non-Christians? Or the bible?

  111. simonthongwh Says:

    If my views are mis-informed, then you’ll have to blame my sources, not willful ignorance.

    Trying to pass the buck? Not my fault, I was misinformed! LOL.

  112. wits0 Says:

    “If my views are mis-informed, then you’ll have to blame my sources, not willful ignorance.”

    Does this mean that you don’t process and weigh your inputs?

  113. simonthongwh Says:

    I gave him new inputs but he merely regurgitated well-learned old themes. Does that answer your question?

    I have been a Baptist for almost 5 decades, and have found that theological/philosophical/sociological themes have changed, particularly with the advent of the Internet and Blogging.

    The inputs have changed. Christians are changing, too. Atheists don’t seem to have. Same old, same old.

  114. Ron Says:

    “I shall not go into the ‘divine will’ vs ‘free will’ topic, lest we add a whole new wall of comments..”

    Sure, fine by me; but you raised the issue and I responded to avoid later accusations of evading the question.

    “And so it becomes law? Again, I don’t see how a teaching becomes a law? […] Teachings and laws are just not the same. It is an instruction, but it is not law, Ron.” –Zack

    Considering that the Gospel of Matthew’s primary focus is on Jesus’ teachings and attempts to clarify controversial issues surrounding the interpretation of the Law, I find your stance perplexing, to say the least. Didn’t Jesus chastise the Pharisees who took such a narrow-minded and literalistic view? Even from a non-religious perspective it’s hard to imagine proponents of an ideology ignoring their beliefs simply because they had no real legal status. Anyways, here is the answer Jesus gave to your question:

    Matthew 7:24-27 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

    “Maybe you aren’t aware of this.. but I don’t recall Jesus came to bring more laws for us to follow. He came to set us FREE from the law, so that we are no longer bound by it.”

    Really?

    Matthew 5

    17 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

    27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

    29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

    31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

    33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

    Could’ve fooled me.🙂

    “And who determines what is actually preached in the first place?”

    Why don’t you tell me? When I asked you a similar question a few posts ago, you deferred answering.

    “Again, I say, I don’t see that teaching “turn other cheek” to be taken in such a metaphorical manner as you have intended it to be. If a person attacks me as the individual that I am, then I am not to retaliate back.”

    Matthew 5

    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Persecute:

    1. to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, especially because of religion, race, or beliefs; harass persistently.
    2. to annoy or trouble persistently.

    “This is exactly what Jesus did Himself. He was beaten, and insulted, but never retaliate in response to that…”

    See John 18:19-23

    “And as far as I recall, everytime you pull this ‘turn other cheek’ verse out, it is to force us to stay quiet while yourself or others tell a lie or falsehood.”

    Please cite the instances where this has happened. On this thread I raised the issue because of your acerbic response to Kerry (a self-professed brother in Christ).

    “Despite our denominations,
    i) we believe the bible is Word of God,”

    Errant or inerrant? Original autographs only, or all copies? Which translations (Hebrew or Greek Septuagint OT? Syriac, Latin, or Coptic? Latin Vulgate or Textus Receptus? Some denominations adhere strictly to KJV only — all others are false) Which books? (Catholic Bibles include books not found in Protestant versions, Mormons also follow the Book of Mormon and The Doctrine and Covenants)

    “ii) we believe Jesus is God and divine,”

    Jehovah’s Witnesses and Unitarians don’t.

    “iii) we believe Jesus came into flesh, died on the cross, buried and then rose from the dead 3 days later,”

    I personally know a number of Christians who do not believe in the physical resurrection (among them several clergy members)

    “iv) we believe that in having faith in Jesus and Him alone, we will be saved and accepted into God’s Heaven.”

    Salvation through faith alone? or faith with works? Or through God’s divine grace (predestination per Calvinist beliefs)?

    “But despite the uniform belief (on doctrines that make us Christians), we hold different views on how we are to ‘practice’ our Christian faith; e.g. some are more ritualistic, some are rather legalistic, some are very free-spirited, etc.”

    Besides the lack of uniform belief noted above, there are also quibbles about whether to ban ‘things of this world’ like drinking alcohol, dancing, listening to secular music, watching secular movies and TV, smoking, reading comics, playing video games, acceptable clothing for men and women, shopping on the Sabbath (not to mention which day to worship), abstaining from war, owning electric appliances (Amish), using amplified instruments in church, using any instruments in church, whether the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, whether Jesus becomes literal flesh in your mouth (transubstantiation) during communion, purgatory, ordaining women as priests, marrying homosexuals, ordaining homosexuals, whether women should remain silent in church, etc.

    “So, where is the divine Word of God not concise with regards to our belief in Christ?”

    Nice bait and switch. I started the discussion by questioning the lack of congruence in Christian moral beliefs, not their belief in Christ per se (fractured as that may be).

  115. Ron Says:

    “Does this mean that you don’t process and weigh your inputs?” –wits0

    I did. That’s why I became a non-believer.

  116. Ron Says:

    ” have been a Baptist for almost 5 decades, and have found that theological/philosophical/sociological themes have changed, particularly with the advent of the Internet and Blogging.”

    Explain how the advent of the Internet and blogging has changed the concept of ‘turn the other cheek’ for modern Christians. In fact, while you’re at it, explain just what the modern Christian concept of that instruction is.

  117. simonthongwh Says:

    Blogging and the Internet have shown the great evil that atheists are pervaded with, and revealed their single-minded dedication to the undermining of the faith of believers. Atheists know about scripture and twist it to destroy the very people who rely on it.

    To turn the other cheek means non-retaliation.

    Non-retaliation does not apply to atheists.

    Atheists may not physically hurt believers like burning churches down with believers in them. It is not physical, except when atheists were Russian communists or Chinese communists. Atheists, as has been shown in history, when in power, have no mercy on all who are of a different persuasion.

    Atheists have a most powerful weapon. They USE scripture against believers.

    Atheists are weapons of the Devil. To resist them is to resist the Devil.

  118. Zack T Says:

    Matthew 7:24-27,
    Is this a law then; that we are to build our ‘house’ on the ‘rock’?
    Is it against law to build our ‘house’ on ‘sand’?
    This, again, is not talking about law.
    No one is disallowed from building their house on sand, nor legally obliged to..
    Just as you are not legally obliged to follow your English teacher with how you articulate your English, nor are you legally obliged to continue to poo in a bowl, even though you are miles away from the nearest toilet.

    And notice, Jesus said ‘does not put into practice‘. Does a law need to be put into practice? Do you practice not killing or not stealing?
    Are law-breakers called foolish people and law-abiding citizens wise people? (i.e. like a wise man who build… like a foolish man who build…)

    Matthew 5
    Are these new laws being brought?
    No, these are the old laws brought to the highest standard.
    And notice what I said, don’t quote me out of context here, Ron.

    but I don’t recall Jesus came to bring more laws for us to follow. He came to set us FREE from the law, so that we are no longer bound by it.
    The law remains in effect, but we are no longer bound to bear the weight of our failure to perfectly keep to it without breaking one of them. ~Zack

    Again, Jesus did not come to bring more laws for us.. He came to set us free from it, because we will never be able to keep it.
    But He can and He did. He fulfilled the Law perfectly and died on the cross on behalf of us sinners and just as He died with our sinful record, we will have His perfect record when we come to the Day of Judgment.
    That’s how we can be more righteous than the Pharisees, by the grace of God through our faith in Christ and what He has done for us.

    Why don’t you tell me? When I asked you a similar question a few posts ago, you deferred answering. ~Ron

    I did answer your question, if you were referring to the ‘false christianity’ point.
    Maybe you missed it.

    In the case of Christianity, what identifies a ‘false’ Christian cult is how it fits within the context of the rest of the unaltered word of the bible. ~Zack

    I actually asked that question as a sort of reminder to you where authority of biblical doctrines/teachings comes from… and that is the bible; Sola Scriptura.
    We humans are bound to make mistakes and are fallible. It is only by God’s grace and guidance that we will come to understand the bible and what it teaches about spiritual things.

    Matthew 5….

    Persecute: ~Ron

    Umm.. huh? Why suddenly talk about persecution?
    I may be speaking about a form of persecution, but how is your quoting Matthew 5:43-48 relevant to the ‘turn other cheek’ topic and my ‘do not retaliate if the person attacks me as a person who I am’ statement?

    See John 18:19-23 ~Ron

    Uhh…. huh? It’s… actually supporting what I said.
    1 – Jesus was hit, but He didn’t strike back at the person who stroke Him, even though He was wronged by that person. (i.e. No ‘an eye for an eye’)
    2 – I don’t see where the person of Jesus was insulting or insulted in this passage.

    Please cite the instances where this has happened. On this thread I raised the issue because of your acerbic response to Kerry (a self-professed brother in Christ). ~Ron

    Actually, this instance with regards to Kerry is a good example of such.
    I’ve re-read and re-re-read the posts by Kerry and the responses made towards Kerry…
    I don’t see where we retaliated by ‘attacking’ or ‘insulting’ in response to Kerry’s ‘attack’ or ‘insult’… instead, we spoke what was the truth of the matter.

    i) we believe the bible is Word of God,

    ii) we believe Jesus is God and divine,

    iii) we believe Jesus came into flesh, died on the cross, buried and then rose from the dead 3 days later,

    I’ve actually answered all that.. just one statement earlier, “And that’s the same with Christianity and its many sects (the ones that never altered the Bible, by adding or subtracting to it)”

    And also a lot earlier, “In the case of Christianity, what identifies a ‘false’ Christian cult is how it fits within the context of the rest of the unaltered word of the bible.”

    In the case of Unitarians, their teachings do not fit in the context of the bible in a number of places… (Jesus’ divinity, Holy Spirit’s divinity, etc)
    And so too are those who disbelieve in the physical resurrection (Jesus rose from the dead in His physical body.. Hmm….)

    Salvation through faith alone? or faith with works? Or through God’s divine grace (predestination per Calvinist beliefs)? ~Ron

    Actually, all three (minus what is taught by Calvinism regarding predestination)..
    Salvation is through faith by God’s grace… And one knows if one’s faith is true by what he does… We do what’s right and good NOT TO BE saved, but because we ARE saved.

    there are also quibbles about whether to ban ‘things of this world… ~Ron

    I contend these are difference of practice for the most part.

    Nice bait and switch. I started the discussion by questioning the lack of congruence in Christian moral beliefs, not their belief in Christ per se (fractured as that may be). ~Ron

    Actually, I put things into proper perspective. Belief in Christianity is not the belief in the Christian moral teachings or ethical things… it is the belief in Christ, hence ‘Christ-ians’, followers of Christ.

  119. simonthongwh Says:

    Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:21

    Applied to an atheist, it means making him face his own twistedness, his false pride, his self-justification, and most of all, turning him to look at himself instead of at others.

    An atheist is fundamentally flawed because he sees only the failures of believers. He sincerely believes that he is better than they because he is consistent in his belief that there is no God. An atheist does not live up to his own ethics. He is as flawed as any believer. A believer knows he is flawed and that he is imperfect and sinful. An atheist is too busy attacking a believer’s failures to have time to see his own. Maybe he is scared to see his own frailties.

    With an atheist, the believer is involved in defence of the faith. Turning the other cheek is one form. The believer may also attack, and that involves raising the issue again and again, “Do you know what it is to be born again?”

    The atheist will insist that believers turn the other cheek so that he may take advantage of that teaching of the Bible. The atheist knows that when believers turn the other cheek, he can go for the jugular.

    Ron is an atheist. He is a master of the art of turning believers into jelly by telling them to obey Jesus Christ, especially to turn the other cheek.

    “You’re not true to the commands of Jesus!” the accuser says. “You’re suppose to turn the other cheek! How can you be a christian?”

    Believers cannot out-argue him as he has no rule except one: use anything and everything in the Bible to serve his own end. The means justifies the end. To face him is to FACE him, not turn the other cheek.

    It is to ask him, again, “Are you born again?”

  120. Scott Thong Says:

    Regarding the whole ‘turn the other cheek’ passages, note that each metaphor Jesus uses is actually limited. One cheek is followed by the other, and you’re out of cheeks. Having your tunic sued off you is followed by giving up your cloak, but no mention of further articles of clothing. Being forced to tag along one mile is matched with another mile, not another hundred.

    Even the part about giving and borrowing has limits – you eventually run out of things you can feasibly give away.

    The Literal Interpretation entry on Wikipedia is quite interesting – it almost seems like a guidebook for Gandhi-style passive provocation to make the other party overstep the boundaries and thus shame them into reconciliation. It goes hand in hand with the Biblical precepts of forgiveness and allowing God the right of vengeance – burning hot coals represent the burning shame and guilt of an oppressor’s repentant conscience.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek#Literal_interpretation

    Of course, what worked with the Christian British didn’t work so well with the local Muslims. Sheds some light onto why Gandhi said he liked Christ but not Christians – he fully expected the latter to roll over and die willingly in the face of persecution like Jesus did, and encouraged his followers to do the same – even if it meant wholesale slaughter with no gain whatsoever.

    wits0 should be able to elaborate on this.

  121. Scott Thong Says:

    Perhaps Ron needs to state what specifically ‘turning the other cheek’ would entail in this particular case.

    Not responding with insults to perceived insults? Responding politely to perceived impoliteness? Refraining from polemical responses to polemical attacks?

  122. wits0 Says:

    “wits0 should be able to elaborate on this.”

    Off the cuff, Gandhi is recalled to have condoned the Holocaust and in this one sick stroke showed himself to be quite mad. You don’t follow a mad man and pay heed to his drivels, do you. In fact, Hutch could really elaborated thoroughly for he has at his READY disposal all the associated links to this cranky and fraudulent pseudo sage and saint that rightfully gives hims a a bad name behind all his false hype and appearance.

    Watch it, Simon, Ron will now go to Matthew 18:22, presuming that Christians REALLY have to forgive 490 times. HAHAHA! An indulgent literalist cannot be expected to understand the abstract and the abstraction behind things. Or pretend not to!

    If Simon hasn’t mentioned the fact that we have but two cheeks, I would have done so by now!

  123. hutchrun Says:

    Gandhi was one of Lenin`s Useful Idiots. He may be loved in South India but not in the North. My experience in Jaipur, Rajasthan taught me that. A Rajasthani, Prohit, told me “Don`t mention that gandoo`s name in front of us”. [gandoo is a “fight” word].
    Gandhi was responsible for the death of millions. It`s a pity Gandhi had not been killed much earlier – it would have saved millions.
    Oliver Stone would probably pray at Gandhi`s altar.

  124. hutchrun Says:

    Why Gandhi’s experiment with Islam failed?
    http://islamicterrorism.wordpress.com/2008/06/06/why-gandhis-experiment-with-islam-failed/

  125. Scott Thong Says:

    Matthew 18:22, presuming that Christians REALLY have to forgive 490 times – wits0

    I do believe that it is entirely possible to forgive someone, and simultaneously inflict justice on him in the name of ending his reign of terror against innocents / dissuading others from following in his footsteps.

    So sure, I forgive you Osama, now please forgive my jacketed hollow points.

  126. simonthongwh Says:

    I actually have this to offer him.
    “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matthew 7.6

    He’ll know this reference to him and all atheists.

    You would think that attack dogs today should be feared but they are no match for swine for sheer savagery, size and teeth. Someone who worked on my student’s pig farm was feeding the pigs when a swine, as big as a mid-sized lion, rushed him and BIT OFF a chunk of his thigh. He doesn’t walk too well now, to say the least.

    Turn the other cheek to an atheist? Nope. “But your Bible teaches you to turn the other cheek!” he ‘ll whine when you put him down for good.

    He’ll say, “You’re not a good christian! Why should I believe the Bible or believe in Christianity when you’re like that?”

    Well, an atheist is not exactly looking for reasons to believe, is he? All that he is looking for is another opportunity to attack, a weakness to take advantage of, a chance to go for the jugular.

    Well, too bad, how sad, but I’m not buying your story, atheist.

  127. hutchrun Says:

    After his talk I am afforded a short time to interview the director of such classics as Wall Street, JFK and Platoon about the inaugural ScreenSingapore, the international cinema event coming up next month billed as the Cannes of Asia. Stone is heading the jury for the Asian Short Film Awards. But first I want to ask him about Stalin.

    When Uncle Joseph died, the brilliant newspaper columnist Cassandra of the London Daily Mirror wrote: “In his time he did titanic things and the whole world was his chess board. No tyrant ever planned on such a scale, and continents rather than countries were his prey. His skill in power politics was unsurpassed. But his purpose was evil and his methods unspeakable. Few men by their death can have given such deep satisfaction to so many.”

    With these words in mind, I remind him that “Stalin was a monster”. Stone hits back defiantly: “But only to his own people.”
    http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/breakingviews/article/oliver-stones-history-of-the-world-paul-gilfeather/

  128. wits0 Says:

    “So sure, I forgive you Osama, now please forgive my jacketed hollow points.”

    Otherwise he’ll put his 5.45x39mm AK 74 round into you anyway, given the chance.

  129. wits0 Says:

    “Well, an atheist is not exactly looking for reasons to believe, is he? ” – Simon.

    He obviously thinks that if he demolishes Christianity today, all religious conflicts become solved, just like that! In this singular effort he gives all atheists(that often includes ppl from all non Monotheistic religions) a bad name indeed. Looks like a scenario within the context of the Cinderella tale, where he would damn Cinderella and marry the ugly sisters!

  130. Rachel Says:

    The Bible also warned us about people like you. So sad.

  131. Rachel Says:

    People that dont stand for anything will fall for every thing!

  132. Scott Thong Says:

    Rachel, with all the comments preceding yours, you’ll have to be more specific who you’re referring to – me or one of the commentors.

  133. Ron Says:

    Matthew 7:24-27,
    Is this a law then; that we are to build our ‘house’ on the ‘rock’? Is it against law to build our ‘house’ on ‘sand’? This, again, is not talking about law.No one is disallowed from building their house on sand, nor legally obliged to..” –Zack

    I can’t speak for Malaysia, but AFAIK all North American municipalities have set strict building codes that incorporate protective measures against the environmental hazards particular to their region. For instance, I live in a flood zone, so all towns and villages are now required to construct dikes that exceed the minimum flood levels. In addition, larger cities have built channels to divert flood waters away from them. New housing is no longer permissible in low-lying areas and existing homeowners must relocate if they get flooded out. Construction in unprotected areas must be built on higher ground, protected by a dike and incorporate pumping equipment. Other cities apply similar rules — new homes built near fault lines must withstand earthquakes, new coastal homes have minimum setbacks and must withstand hurricanes, homes in desert areas are prohibited from using wood foundations susceptible to termite damage, etc.

    “And notice, Jesus said ‘does not put into practice‘. Does a law need to be put into practice? Do you practice not killing or not stealing?”

    No, it’s not a law — it’s a strict guideline set out for those who profess to be followers of Christ’s teachings. So yes, those instructions need to be put into practice if you expect others to take your claims seriously. Bold assertions and empty gestures are meaningless, and Christians who fail to follow the scriptures become indistinguishable from the non-believers they seek to condemn.

    “Are law-breakers called foolish people and law-abiding citizens wise people? (i.e. like a wise man who build… like a foolish man who build…)”

    Law-breakers are called criminals; law-abiding citizens are called productive members of society; people who don’t practice what they preach are called hypocrites; and people who try to weasel their way out of things are called lawyers and politicians.

    “Are these new laws being brought? No, these are the old laws brought to the highest standard. And notice what I said, don’t quote me out of context here, Ron. ‘but I don’t recall Jesus came to bring more laws for us to follow. He came to set us FREE from the law, so that we are no longer bound by it. The law remains in effect, but we are no longer bound to bear the weight of our failure to perfectly keep to it without breaking one of them.” ~Zack

    How is upping the ante — calling someone a ‘fool’ now equates to murder; lusting after a woman (thought crime) becomes adultery — setting us free? Even more appalling is the lack of subtle distinction make between the severity of punishment in relation to the crimes committed. Once guilty of having lusted after a woman, what further incentive is there to refrain from going on to commit the actual act of adultery itself? In for a penny, in for a pound… right? I mean, it’s not like you can amp up the length and severity of the eternal torment which already awaits.

    “Again, Jesus did not come to bring more laws for us.. He came to set us free from it, because we will never be able to keep it.
    But He can and He did. He fulfilled the Law perfectly and died on the cross on behalf of us sinners and just as He died with our sinful record, we will have His perfect record when we come to the Day of Judgment. That’s how we can be more righteous than the Pharisees, by the grace of God through our faith in Christ and what He has done for us.”

    I’ve already expressed my views on the doctrine of vicarious redemption elsewhere. The idea that punishment can be reassigned from the guilty to innocent third parties is one of the most morally repugnant concepts of all the Christian doctrines.

    “I did answer your question, if you were referring to the ‘false christianity’ point. Maybe you missed it. In the case of Christianity, what identifies a ‘false’ Christian cult is how it fits within the context of the rest of the unaltered word of the bible.” ~Zack

    I then asked: How do you determine the correct context when that is often the very issue in dispute?

    To which you responded: “This will bring us to a whole new line of topic, which I will not indulge in this time. If anyone else wants to, they have the free-will to do so.”

    And to date, no one has taken up the mantle.

    “I actually asked that question as a sort of reminder to you where authority of biblical doctrines/teachings comes from… and that is the bible; Sola Scriptura.”

    Sola Scriptura: a compilation of fragmented parchments containing contradictory messages steeped in mysticism written in multiple languages over several centuries by anonymous desert nomads who possessed little if any scientific understanding of their world.

    How is this authority any different from the others claiming the exact same thing (Śruti, Qur’an, The Works of Bahá’u’lláh, Book of Mormon)?

    “We humans are bound to make mistakes and are fallible. It is only by God’s grace and guidance that we will come to understand the bible and what it teaches about spiritual things.”

    A spiritual guide that generates as many interpretations as there are readers and goes on to become a major source of conflict amongst its followers can only be described as an epic fail on God’s part. An infinite omni-being would have anticipated the outcome and followed a different course.

    “Umm.. huh? Why suddenly talk about persecution? I may be speaking about a form of persecution, but how is your quoting Matthew 5:43-48 relevant to the ‘turn other cheek’ topic and my ‘do not retaliate if the person attacks me as a person who I am’ statement?”

    The basis of your argument was that ‘turn the other cheek’ wasn’t meant to be taken in a metaphorical context. The verses I cited indicate that Jesus included all forms of persecution, be they physical or verbal.

    “John 18:19-23 Uhh…. huh? It’s… actually supporting what I said.

    1 – Jesus was hit, but He didn’t strike back at the person who stroke Him, even though He was wronged by that person. (i.e. No ‘an eye for an eye’)
    2 – I don’t see where the person of Jesus was insulting or insulted in this passage.”

    You stated that Jesus suffered physical abuse without retaliating, but the verses show he sarcastically lipped off the high priest during examination which constitutes an act of retaliation. And overthrowing the tables in the temple was certainly an act of aggression.

    “Actually, this instance with regards to Kerry is a good example of such. I’ve re-read and re-re-read the posts by Kerry and the responses made towards Kerry…I don’t see where we retaliated by ‘attacking’ or ‘insulting’ in response to Kerry’s ‘attack’ or ‘insult’… instead, we spoke what was the truth of the matter.”

    I just find it amusing that Kerry’s anecdote about ill-treatment on other Christian message boards was basically met with the exact same hostility and judgmental attitude on this one.

    “I’ve actually answered all that.. just one statement earlier, “And that’s the same with Christianity and its many sects (the ones that never altered the Bible, by adding or subtracting to it) And also a lot earlier, “In the case of Christianity, what identifies a ‘false’ Christian cult is how it fits within the context of the rest of the unaltered word of the bible.”

    Which brings us right back to my unanswered questions:

    1) How do you know the text hasn’t been altered?

    2) How do you determine the correct context when that is often the very issue in dispute?

    “In the case of Unitarians, their teachings do not fit in the context of the bible in a number of places… (Jesus’ divinity, Holy Spirit’s divinity, etc)”

    The Bible makes no specific mention of the Trinity. And Scott’s blog posts on the subject aren’t very convincing arguments in favor of the concept either.

    “And so too are those who disbelieve in the physical resurrection (Jesus rose from the dead in His physical body.. Hmm….)”

    They treat it as allegory, just like the Creation myth, Noah’s Flood, the Exodus, the Tower of Babel, Jonah and the Fish, and many other stories. In their view what’s pertinent is the shared belief in following Christ’s teachings, not an adherence to the literal interpretation of the events told.

    “Actually, all three (minus what is taught by Calvinism regarding predestination)..Salvation is through faith by God’s grace… And one knows if one’s faith is true by what he does… We do what’s right and good NOT TO BE saved, but because we ARE saved.”

    Unfortunately, they can’t all be true simultaneously. I can’t post multiple links due to the spam filter, but here’s one apologetics site that disagrees with you.

    http://carm.org/are-we-saved-faith-alone-or-do-we-need-works-too

    there are also quibbles about whether to ban ‘things of this world… ~Ron

    “I contend these are difference of practice for the most part.”

    At one point in time, some of those differences became controversial enough to create bloody wars. Even now, some of those differences lead to excommunication, banishment, and shunning.

    “Actually, I put things into proper perspective. Belief in Christianity is not the belief in the Christian moral teachings or ethical things… it is the belief in Christ, hence ‘Christ-ians’, followers of Christ.”

    **Facepalm**

    How can you be a follower of Christ if you don’t follow his teachings?

  134. Ron Says:

    “Blogging and the Internet have shown the great evil that atheists are pervaded with, and revealed their single-minded dedication to the undermining of the faith of believers. Atheists know about scripture and twist it to destroy the very people who rely on it.” –Simon

    Yes, thank Gore for the Internet. The inconsistencies and contradictions of religious texts can now be easily shared with a global audience on open forums. Theists definitely didn’t see that one coming (Guess God was asleep or forgot to mention it).

    “To turn the other cheek means non-retaliation. Non-retaliation does not apply to atheists.”

    Care to share the verse where Jesus makes this distinction?

    “Atheists may not physically hurt believers like burning churches down with believers in them. It is not physical, except when atheists were Russian communists or Chinese communists. Atheists, as has been shown in history, when in power, have no mercy on all who are of a different persuasion.”

    Sure, if all non-believers are card-carrying communists bent on killing off believers, then all priests rape alter boys, all evangelical ministers are money-grubbing frauds who cohort with prostitutes, all Baptists are like Fred Phelps, and all Christians are homophobic, racist, Jew-killing Nazis.

    “Atheists have a most powerful weapon. They USE scripture against believers.”

    You betcha. And if your text can’t face the harsh spotlight of critical analysis, that’s your problem. Christians have been bashing non-believers over the head with it for centuries without the slightest bit of remorse.

    “Atheists are weapons of the Devil. To resist them is to resist the Devil.”

    I don’t believe in demons, but according to the Bible, God’s murder count is in the millions, while Satan’s is exactly ten (and even that required God’s assistance).

  135. Ron Says:

    “Perhaps Ron needs to state what specifically ‘turning the other cheek’ would entail in this particular case. Not responding with insults to perceived insults? Responding politely to perceived impoliteness? Refraining from polemical responses to polemical attacks?”

    Kerry simply provided an anecdote in support of the tenth premise (Persecution of Christians) in your blog post. How that can be conceived as an insult by anyone is beyond my comprehension.

  136. Ron Says:

    “Watch it, Simon, Ron will now go to Matthew 18:22, presuming that Christians REALLY have to forgive 490 times.” — wits0

    I’d be amazed if I can find a Christian who’s willing to forgive even once. The saddest thing is they treat their own. Witness what happened to Ted Haggard — ousted as minister (fair enough) and told to quietly leave the state and never return. Talk about lack of compassion for a fallen brother.

  137. Zack T Says:

    I can’t speak for Malaysia, but AFAIK all North American municipalities have… ~Ron

    I just quickly say that I am aware they have made such laws in recent times, but I’ve never heard of such laws during Jesus’ time. So my statement stands.

    No, it’s not a law ~Ron

    Finally you admit.

    it’s a strict guideline set out for those who profess to be followers of Christ’s teachings. So yes, those instructions need to be put into practice if you expect others to take your claims seriously ~Ron

    Wait a minute… We are to follow these instruction if we want others to take us seriously? I did not read that anywhere in that passage, Ron.
    Care to explain how putting His teachings into practice is to get others to take us seriously, according to that passage?

    How is upping the ante — calling someone a ‘fool’ now equates to murder; lusting after a woman (thought crime) becomes adultery — setting us free? ~Ron

    Oh! So you actually do NOT know what Christianity teaches? At least, one of them, although this one is rather integral to Christianity..
    Your question is exactly what Jesus and His apostles have pointed out… it is not by Law that we are set free… The Law puts us down because it reveals our sin, but it is by GRACE, that we are set free through faith in Jesus Christ and what He has done on our behalf on the cross.

    The idea that punishment can be reassigned from the guilty to innocent third parties is one of the most morally repugnant concepts of all the Christian doctrines. ~Ron

    Well, that’s your view, but God has long long establish such a justification system through animal sacrificing.
    The very simple fact that we kill animals to keep ourselves alive is actually an analogy to God’s teaching that life must be sacrifice in order for us to live.
    In the case of God, He sacrificed the life of Christ in order for us to live and because Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, He was resurrected from the dead and in a near future, He will return as Judge and Ruler of all.

    I then asked: How do you determine the correct context when that is often the very issue in dispute? ~Ron

    I’ll just quickly say, the archaeological and historical evidences of the bible. The NT manuscripts (excluding the Apocrypha books of the Catholics, the earliest is 3rd or 4th Century, I think) are found as early as within the 1st Century.
    And as I said, this brings up a whole new topic of discussion, so that’s why I chose not to cover this.

    How is this authority any different from the others claiming the exact same thing (Śruti, Qur’an, The Works of Bahá’u’lláh, Book of Mormon)? ~Ron

    The same reason why the Old Testament is taken to be authoritative by the early Jews and even modern Jews and Christians… because we believe it is from God and it is true. So far to my limited knowledge, this question can’t be answer to an atheist, who denies any possible supernatural answers in the first place. This question is a topic to debate between religions or faiths.
    I’ll just contend that the bible is true because it has proven itself true in many areas (i.e. archaeological, historical, and contrary to your view, science, etc), and is internally consistent with its doctrines, particularly when it comes to who Jesus Christ is and what He has done.

    The verses I cited indicate that Jesus included all forms of persecution, be they physical or verbal. ~Ron

    You are correct in saying the above, but how does this immediately connect with the ‘turn other cheek’ teaching? This are two passage taught in different context that you are trying to connect.

    Plus, persecution is mainly that of Christians being denied their right to live in this world just like everyone else who isn’t Christian (e.g. to wear cross necklaces, to celebrate our Christian holidays as we see fit, to live without being harrassed or threatened by death, etc)… I don’t see people debating against Christians as some form of persecution.. I don’t think anyone does.

    You stated that Jesus suffered physical abuse without retaliating, but the verses show he sarcastically lipped off the high priest during examination which constitutes an act of retaliation. And overthrowing the tables in the temple was certainly an act of aggression. ~Ron

    Now you’re grasping for straws, Ron. Seriously.
    Jesus did respond, but it was not in retaliation.. Did He strike the person back? No, He asked him to point out what He did or said wrong, otherwise why did he strike Him in the first place?
    It would be the same as a police officer coming with handcuffs to cuff you and you asking the officer, ‘What did I do wrong? If I’ve not broken any law, why are you arresting me?”

    And yes, overthrowing tables in the temple was an act of aggression, but what’s this got to do with retaliation, or at least what we’re talking about here?

    I just find it amusing that Kerry’s anecdote about ill-treatment on other Christian message boards was basically met with the exact same hostility and judgmental attitude on this one. ~Ron

    Oh my goodness, I don’t understand how you constitute what’s ‘hostility’…

    All we did was ask questions and point out falsehoods in what he wrote.

    Here Kerry comes, proclaiming, “I am RC” and how he is persecuted in another forum, and went on to imply that he will be treated the same here.
    On the contrary, he was put on the spotlight for what he said, not for who he was.

    And if you noticed, Kerry was the first guilty of being judgmental. i.e. “Wolf in sheep clothin… so it’s here happening now”

    The Bible makes no specific mention of the Trinity. And Scott’s blog posts on the subject aren’t very convincing arguments in favor of the concept either. ~Ron

    Bible does not mention or outrightly says it in one verse that “the Trinity is…” But it is the understanding of who God is and to answer how Father is God, Son is God, Spirit is God and yet God is one. Many things said about Jesus or Spirit are of divine attributes and can’t be attributed to anyone or anything except God.
    If you find what I’ve written before or Scott’s blog post not convincing, either you are not opened to accepting what we teach about the Trinity, or we are not very good in explanation or making clear for it to you.

    They treat it as allegory…

    Well then, that their chosen method of understanding scripture… Might as well allegorize everything that happened in history then.

    Unfortunately, they can’t all be true simultaneously. I can’t post multiple links due to the spam filter, but here’s one apologetics site that disagrees with you. ~Ron

    Apparently, you were reading what you want to read from the link, huh?
    Quoted from the link:
    “The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us.”
    “In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action.”
    “In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

    At one point in time, some of those differences became controversial enough to create bloody wars. Even now, some of those differences lead to excommunication, banishment, and shunning. ~Ron

    Still… under the heading of ‘practice’.

    How can you be a follower of Christ if you don’t follow his teachings? ~Ron

    Then it is a matter of what did Jesus teach. (again, touches on ‘practice’, not ‘belief’, let alone ‘belief in Christ’.) And I contend, it is not what you are trying to put forward, with regards to ‘turn other cheek’; that is to not respond/say anything when someone speaks falsely about me or what I say or what Jesus/Bible/Christianity says/teaches.

  138. simonthongwh Says:

    Ron wants the Bible to be everything and nothing; he wants Christians to be everything and nothing; he wants truth and untruth; he doesn’t believe in demons but works for the Devil (whose best servants don’t even know they are his); he wants absolute compliance and relativity; he wants perfection in an imperfect world; he sees nothing right in christians unless they do want he tells them (“Yes, little man lord!); he demands that christians forgive but knows nothing about what forgiveness means; he demands turning of the other cheek so that he can slap it, and after that, break the christian’s nose; he is satisfied/happy with his life but is so bitter about believers still believing in what he has rejected. He is everything and nothing.

    Ron is a contradiction.

  139. simonthongwh Says:

    A man had just flattened another man with an almighty punch.

    Passerby, “I know you. You’re a christian! I saw him hit you but why didn’t you turn the other cheek? That’s what Jesus taught you christians!”

    “But I did. He punched my left cheek, so I turned the other and he hit it. When he gave a third punch, well, I had no cheek left.”

    “What kind of a Christian are you?”

    “Hakka Christian, Taiping branch.”

    With Ron, it’s exactly like that. With Ron, it’s a boxing ring. One difference: he’s a dirty fighter, extremely dirty.

  140. wits0 Says:

    “Ron is a contradiction.”

    He wants to see what’s absolute in non absolute existence itself. Because he can’t, like anyone else, he believes nothing is worth believing. But that’s not the end of it all. He actually wants all others to do the same! High hope, hahaha!

  141. hutchrun Says:

    “I’d be amazed if I can find a Christian who’s willing to forgive even once. ” -Ron

    Jimmy Carter forgives all the time. That`s ONE.

  142. hutchrun Says:

    When a liberal tries pointing out that some are more extreme than others, cut him short by quoting Dr. Johnson: “Sir, there is no settling the point of precedency between a louse and a flea.”

    [Refer freely and interchangeably to “liberals,” “socialists,” “Reds,” “progressives,” “Commies,” “left-wing bastards,” pinkos,” “Trots,” “Nazis,” etc.]

  143. Scott Thong Says:

    Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. – via Michael Ledeen

  144. simonthongwh Says:

    “I’d be amazed if I can find a Christian who’s willing to forgive even once. ” -Ron

    That’s another example of his dirty fighting. He’ll say anything to score points. It’s not the boxing ring he is in but the street. Anything goes.

  145. wits0 Says:

    “I’d be amazed if I can find a Christian who’s willing to forgive even once. ” -Ron

    He thinks the Dodo bird behaviour for people should be mandated to satisfy himself.

  146. Scott Thong Says:

    https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/christian-testimonies-of-incredible-forgiveness/

  147. wits0 Says:

    “When a liberal tries pointing out that some are more extreme than others, cut him short by quoting Dr. Johnson: “Sir, there is no settling the point of precedency between a louse and a flea.” ” – Hutchrun.

    While they freely accept the lunatic fringe under their protective “liberal” canopy, i.e. The atheists too do have their own lunatic fringe.

  148. simonthongwh Says:

    If modern atheists come into power, they will implement a totalitarian regime that sends believers in God (regardless of religious persuasion) to re-education camps; expedite the policy of religious cleansing by sending priests, pastors, imams, monks and other religious cleric to the gas chamber; introduce torture to get believers to confess their error; introduce a ‘rat on your fellow believer’ reward system; implement a strict education policy of atheistic beliefs; and generally reduce the population to docile submission. INTOLERANCE, the trademark of individual and collective atheism today, will have free reign through systemic eradication of all signs of religiosity and annihilation of all ‘hardcore’ believers.

  149. snigger Says:

    If all this brainwashing hasn’t led children to become suicide murderers before they reach university age, they can then go on for further indoctrination at Hamas’s proxy university in Gaza.

    That the NUS should be ‘building links’ with such an institution says everything about the depravity of large sections of the contemporary British Left
    http://hurryupharry.org/2011/05/20/the-nus-is-a-national-disgrace/

  150. wits0 Says:

    How, Simon, that kind of modern atheist would definitely include such “Progressives” who indulgent in blatant dichotomy as such:
    http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.9567/pub_detail.asp
    They’ll make exception for a fierce religion like the present debased Feminists who no longer bother about misogyny outside or even within their own society.

    Progress towards perfidy and duplicitous Feminists. Yea, truly Liberals! Free to be venal hypocrites by populist demand, it seems!

  151. snigger Says:

    The present is controlled by the liberal ruling class, led by malevolent vermin like Oliver Stone.
    http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2011/05/olive-stone-whi.html

  152. simonthongwh Says:

    One more quack-prophet down for the count; how many more to go”
    Simon Thong Wee Hing
    One quack-prophet down and out; how many more to go?
    It’s NOT the end of the world as we know it
    edition.cnn.com
    This just in: Doomsday is doomed. And the world is still here.

  153. simonthongwh Says:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/05/21/doomsday/index.html?hpt=P1

  154. Ron Says:

    “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” ~ Jesus. (the first false prophet)

  155. Scott Thong Says:

    Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    genea

    Translations and definitions:

    generation – the successive members of a genealogy, men of the same stock, a family

    time – the whole multitude of men living at the same time

    age – the time ordinarily occupied by each successive
    generation

    nation – a group of men very like each other in endowments,
    pursuits, character

    Either one is suitably true. None limits the time span to a sinlge, physical familial generation (i.e. around 30 years to grow up and have children).

    Taken all together, the idea of a group of persons (i.e. Christians) through the following ages (i.e. up to now and beyond) is inferred.

    The NLT version lists three of the translations for this word.

    ————————-

    PS. The above is something I didn’t know in depth about before this. The prompting from questioners that leads to better knowledge of the Bible is one benefit of being open to criticism and polemics.

  156. Ron Says:

    I just quickly say that I am aware they have made such laws in recent times, but I’ve never heard of such laws during Jesus’ time. So my statement stands. ~ Zack

    Building codes go back to antiquity.

    Code of Hammurabi (circa 1780 BCE)

    229 If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death.

    230. If it kill the son of the owner the son of that builder shall be put to death.

    231. If it kill a slave of the owner, then he shall pay slave for slave to the owner of the house.

    232. If it ruin goods, he shall make compensation for all that has been ruined, and inasmuch as he did not construct properly this house which he built and it fell, he shall re-erect the house from his own means.

    233. If a builder build a house for some one, even though he has not yet completed it; if then the walls seem toppling, the builder must make the walls solid from his own means.

    Marcus Vitruvius Pollio (Roman architect, engineer, writer born c. 80–70 BC, died after c. 15 BC) wrote entire volumes on correct building techniques. Here are his instructions for laying foundations:

    “The Foundation is the most important part of the Fabrick; for the Faults
    committed in it cannot be so easily remedied as in other parts.

    To lay the Foundation well, you must dig till you come to solid Ground,
    and even into the solid as much as is necessary to support the Weight of
    the Walls; it must be larger below than above the Superficies of the
    Earth.

    When you have found firm Earth to make it more solid, you must beat it
    with a Rammer; but if you cannot arrive at solid Earth, but find it
    still soft and spungy, you must dig as far as you can, and drive in
    Piles of Alder, Olive, or Oak, a little singed, near together, and fill
    up the void Places between the Piles with Coal.

    In short, you must make all Masonry with the most solid Stone that can
    be found for this use.

    To make the Binding of the Stones the stronger in the Foundation of
    great Fabricks, you must put Piles of Olive a little singed and placed
    very thick from one Parement or Course to another, which serves, as it
    were, for Keys and Braces; for this Wood so prepar’d, is not subject to
    Worms, and will endure for ever, either in the Earth or in the Water,
    without the least Damage.

    When you would make Cellars, the Foundations must be much larger; for
    the Wall that is to support the Earth requires a greater thickness to
    resist the strong Efforts that the Earth makes against it in Winter, at
    which time it swells and becomes more heavy by reason of the Water it
    has drunk up.”

    Even the Bible contains zoning and building codes:

    Deuteronomy 19:14 “Do not move your neighbor’s boundary stone set up by your predecessors in the inheritance you receive in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess.”

    Deuteronomy 22:8 “When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.”

    1 Kings 5:17 “At the king’s command they removed from the quarry large blocks of high-grade stone to provide a foundation of dressed stone for the temple.”

    So the fact that Jesus employs the simile of building on firm foundations suggests that there were probably local ordinances in place.

    No, it’s not a law ~Ron
    Finally you admit. ~Zack

    When did I ever deny it?

    “it’s a strict guideline set out for those who profess to be followers of Christ’s teachings. So yes, those instructions need to be put into practice if you expect others to take your claims seriously” ~Ron

    “Wait a minute… We are to follow these instruction if we want others to take us seriously? I did not read that anywhere in that passage, Ron.
    Care to explain how putting His teachings into practice is to get others to take us seriously, according to that passage?” ~Zack

    Does Jesus need to spell out common rules of logic? How seriously would you take anyone who promotes an ideology they don’t put into practice? Wouldn’t you expect someone who claims to follow a strict macrobiotic diet to eliminate (or at least drastically reduce) their consumption of junk foods?

    How is upping the ante — calling someone a ‘fool’ now equates to murder; lusting after a woman (thought crime) becomes adultery — setting us free? ~Ron

    “Oh! So you actually do NOT know what Christianity teaches? At least, one of them, although this one is rather integral to Christianity..
    Your question is exactly what Jesus and His apostles have pointed out… it is not by Law that we are set free… The Law puts us down because it reveals our sin, but it is by GRACE, that we are set free through faith in Jesus Christ and what He has done on our behalf on the cross.” ~Zack

    That’s Paul’s doctrine, but not what Jesus taught (see Matthew 5:18-20 already posted above). And in Matthew 16:24 makes it crystal clear what you must do to call yourself his follower: “Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.'”

    In Matthew 19:16-21 he reiterates this idea:

    Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

    “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

    “Which ones?” he inquired.

    Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

    “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

    Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

    In Luke 14:26 he further admonishes: “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”

    Then again, Mark 16:16-18 says: “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

    How are your snake handling abilities Zack? Can you drink deadly poisons without harm? Driven out any demons in Jesus name? Healed any sick people by placing your hands on them?

    How about you Simon? Scott? Anyone?

    But wait, Acts 13:48 says: “…and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.”

    Appointed for eternal life? Does that mean Calvin was right about the predestination thing?

    Romans 8:29-30 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    Roman 9: 16-18 “It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.”

    Ephesians 1:4-5 “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will”

    Ephesians 1:11 ” In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will”

    2 Thessalonians 2:13 “But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.”

    1 Peter 1:1-2 “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.”

    As for ‘turning the other cheek’ Jesus gives follow-up instructions in Matthew 6:14-15: “For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”

    However there’s one small caveat given in Matthew 12:31-32: “And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

    Jesus, now I’m all confused. Is it faith alone? Faith with works? Faith and baptism? Or is simply forgiving others good enough? Should I keep all the commandments, sell all my possessions and hate my loved ones? Or just accept the fact that I wasn’t predestined to become one of God’s chosen ones.

    The idea that punishment can be reassigned from the guilty to innocent third parties is one of the most morally repugnant concepts of all the Christian doctrines. ~Ron

    “Well, that’s your view, but God has long long establish such a justification system through animal sacrificing. The very simple fact that we kill animals to keep ourselves alive is actually an analogy to God’s teaching that life must be sacrifice in order for us to live. In the case of God, He sacrificed the life of Christ in order for us to live and because Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, He was resurrected from the dead and in a near future, He will return as Judge and Ruler of all.” ~Zack

    Killing for food is not the same as ritual sacrifice as atonement for guilt. And theological tautologies aren’t a satisfactory substitute for sound logical arguments — simply restating your beliefs won’t alleviate the moral bankruptcy inherent to the doctrine of vicarious redemption.

    “I then asked: How do you determine the correct context when that is often the very issue in dispute?” ~Ron

    “I’ll just quickly say, the archaeological and historical evidences of the bible. The NT manuscripts (excluding the Apocrypha books of the Catholics, the earliest is 3rd or 4th Century, I think) are found as early as within the 1st Century.” ~Zack

    Pretend we all agree that a very charismatic and outspoken Jewish rabbi named Jesus wandered Judea 2000 years ago preaching a bold new message of redemption and salvation. How does/would archaeological and historical evidence help resolve the theological disputes over the correct contextual interpretations of his message and teachings?

    How is this authority any different from the others claiming the exact same thing (Śruti, Qur’an, The Works of Bahá’u’lláh, Book of Mormon)? ~Ron

    “The same reason why the Old Testament is taken to be authoritative by the early Jews and even modern Jews and Christians… because we believe it is from God and it is true. So far to my limited knowledge, this question can’t be answer to an atheist, who denies any possible supernatural answers in the first place. This question is a topic to debate between religions or faiths.” ~Zack

    Let’s dispel the false notion that a lack of belief is synonymous with denial. Like most atheists, I don’t deny the possibility of supernatural entities — I’m simply unconvinced of their existence due to the lack of substantiating evidence. And no, special pleading (because we believe it’s true), and appeals to popularity won’t suffice, because the other religions use exactly those same arguments.

    “I’ll just contend that the bible is true because it has proven itself true in many areas (i.e. archaeological, historical, and contrary to your view, science, etc), and is internally consistent with its doctrines, particularly when it comes to who Jesus Christ is and what He has done.” ~Zack

    To avoid getting bogged down in a side debate, let’s just say I disagree with the validity of nearly every point made in that statement and leave it at that.

    The verses I cited indicate that Jesus included all forms of persecution, be they physical or verbal. ~Ron

    “You are correct in saying the above, but how does this immediately connect with the ‘turn other cheek’ teaching? This are two passage taught in different context that you are trying to connect.” ~Zack

    Please explain how the two passages stressing the same idea and following one after another in quick succession can possibly be explained under different contexts.

    “Plus, persecution is mainly that of Christians being denied their right to live in this world just like everyone else who isn’t Christian (e.g. to wear cross necklaces, to celebrate our Christian holidays as we see fit, to live without being harrassed or threatened by death, etc)… I don’t see people debating against Christians as some form of persecution.. I don’t think anyone does.” ~Zack

    Well, Simon certainly does. Based on his comments, he’s convinced my “attacks” on his beliefs are a form of persecution. In fact he goes much further than that. He wrote that I’m the devil incarnate and believes that should atheists ever attain sufficient political strength they will “implement a totalitarian regime that sends believers in God (regardless of religious persuasion) to re-education camps; expedite the policy of religious cleansing by sending priests, pastors, imams, monks and other religious cleric to the gas chamber; introduce torture to get believers to confess their error; introduce a ‘rat on your fellow believer’ reward system; implement a strict education policy of atheistic beliefs; and generally reduce the population to docile submission.annihilate all believers.”

    You stated that Jesus suffered physical abuse without retaliating, but the verses show he sarcastically lipped off the high priest during examination which constitutes an act of retaliation. And overthrowing the tables in the temple was certainly an act of aggression. ~Ron

    “Jesus did respond, but it was not in retaliation.. Did He strike the person back? No, He asked him to point out what He did or said wrong, otherwise why did he strike Him in the first place?” ~Zack

    Had Jesus given a direct response to the first question instead of being a smart aleck, he wouldn’t have been struck at all.

    “It would be the same as a police officer coming with handcuffs to cuff you and you asking the officer, ‘What did I do wrong? If I’ve not broken any law, why are you arresting me?” ~Zack

    Except Christ is supposed to be an omniscient deity, so why would he need to ask?

    “And yes, overthrowing tables in the temple was an act of aggression, but what’s this got to do with retaliation, or at least what we’re talking about here?” ~Zack

    It just goes to establish evidence of his overall demeanor. (contemptuous, contentious, hot-tempered, self-aggrandizing)

    “I just find it amusing that Kerry’s anecdote about ill-treatment on other Christian message boards was basically met with the exact same hostility and judgmental attitude on this one.” ~Ron

    “Oh my goodness, I don’t understand how you constitute what’s ‘hostility’…” ~Zack

    Hostile: Unfriendly; antagonistic (Dictionary.com)

    “All we did was ask questions and point out falsehoods in what he wrote.”~Zack

    You responded: “Since when are you the Vatican, Kerry? And as far as I know, martyrs of Christ do NOT go around looking to be persecuted, just as you seem to be doing right now.”

    Seems more like a rhetorical question followed up by an accusation.

    As for Simon’s response… well, ad hominem is the only form of argument he knows… and as he’s admitted elsewhere, he’s damn proud of it.

    “Here Kerry comes, proclaiming, “I am RC” and how he is persecuted in another forum, and went on to imply that he will be treated the same here.
    On the contrary, he was put on the spotlight for what he said, not for who he was.”~Zack

    He never implied any such thing. As I’ve already stated in my previous comment, Kerry’s anecdote was intended to provide supporting evidence to Scott’s point about the persecution of Christians during the end times. That’s all. You misconstrued what he meant and took it as an affront.

    What’s funny though, is seeing Christians from different denominations demonstrating they are the authors of their own persecution complex.

    The Bible makes no specific mention of the Trinity. And Scott’s blog posts on the subject aren’t very convincing arguments in favor of the concept either. ~Ron

    “If you find what I’ve written before or Scott’s blog post not convincing, either you are not opened to accepting what we teach about the Trinity, or we are not very good in explanation or making clear for it to you.” ~Zack

    Then I’ll pick option number two, Alex.

    Unfortunately, they can’t all be true simultaneously. I can’t post multiple links due to the spam filter, but here’s one apologetics site that disagrees with you. ~Ron

    “Apparently, you were reading what you want to read from the link, huh? Quoted from the link: ~Zack

    “The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us.”

    Right, according to the first set of verses given.

    “In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20).”

    Which gels nicely with what I wrote in an earlier comment. To wit, “Bold assertions and empty gestures are meaningless, and Christians who fail to follow the scriptures become indistinguishable from the non-believers they seek to condemn.”

    “But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.” (carm.org)

    But he is, because the others say faith alone is sufficient and James 2:18 says otherwise: “Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.”

    “Still… under the heading of ‘practice’.” ~Zack

    Torturing and killing people seems like an awfully brutal way to express one’s love in Christ, don’t ya think?

    How can you be a follower of Christ if you don’t follow his teachings? ~Ron

    “Then it is a matter of what did Jesus teach. (again, touches on ‘practice’, not ‘belief’, let alone ‘belief in Christ’.) ” ~Zack

    That’s odd, because in your previous post you wrote:

    “Belief in Christianity is not the belief in the Christian moral teachings or ethical things… it is the belief in Christ, hence ‘Christ-ians’, followers of Christ.”

    Now you’re stating what appears to be the exact opposite. Will the real Zack T please stand up?

    “And I contend, it is not what you are trying to put forward, with regards to ‘turn other cheek’; that is to not respond/say anything when someone speaks falsely about me or what I say or what Jesus/Bible/Christianity says/teaches.” ~ Zack

    Resist not evil seems like a pretty cut and dried statement to me.

    I’m curious though, if you consider deflecting verbal assaults an onerous challenge, how do you expect to hold out against physical oppression?

  157. Ron Says:

    Sorry, last (long) quote got messed up. Here it is again.

    “Here Kerry comes, proclaiming, “I am RC” and how he is persecuted in another forum, and went on to imply that he will be treated the same here.
    On the contrary, he was put on the spotlight for what he said, not for who he was.”~Zack

    He never implied any such thing. As I’ve already stated in my previous comment, Kerry’s anecdote was intended to provide supporting evidence to Scott’s point about the persecution of Christians during the end times. That’s all. You misconstrued what he meant and took it as an affront.

    What’s funny though, is seeing Christians from different denominations demonstrating they are the authors of their own persecution complex.

    The Bible makes no specific mention of the Trinity. And Scott’s blog posts on the subject aren’t very convincing arguments in favor of the concept either. ~Ron

    “If you find what I’ve written before or Scott’s blog post not convincing, either you are not opened to accepting what we teach about the Trinity, or we are not very good in explanation or making clear for it to you.” ~Zack

    Then I’ll pick option number two, Alex.

    Unfortunately, they can’t all be true simultaneously. I can’t post multiple links due to the spam filter, but here’s one apologetics site that disagrees with you. ~Ron

    “Apparently, you were reading what you want to read from the link, huh? Quoted from the link: ~Zack

    “The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us.”

    Right, according to the first set of verses given.

    “In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20).”

    Which gels nicely with what I wrote in an earlier comment. To wit, “Bold assertions and empty gestures are meaningless, and Christians who fail to follow the scriptures become indistinguishable from the non-believers they seek to condemn.”

    “But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.” (carm.org)

    But he is, because the others say faith alone is sufficient and James 2:18 says otherwise: “Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.”

    “Still… under the heading of ‘practice’.” ~Zack

    Torturing and killing people seems like an awfully brutal way to express one’s love in Christ, don’t ya think?

    How can you be a follower of Christ if you don’t follow his teachings? ~Ron

    “Then it is a matter of what did Jesus teach. (again, touches on ‘practice’, not ‘belief’, let alone ‘belief in Christ’.) ” ~Zack

    That’s odd, because in your previous post you wrote:

    “Belief in Christianity is not the belief in the Christian moral teachings or ethical things… it is the belief in Christ, hence ‘Christ-ians’, followers of Christ.”

    Now you’re stating what appears to be the exact opposite. Will the real Zack T please stand up?

    “And I contend, it is not what you are trying to put forward, with regards to ‘turn other cheek’; that is to not respond/say anything when someone speaks falsely about me or what I say or what Jesus/Bible/Christianity says/teaches.” ~ Zack

    Resist not evil seems like a pretty cut and dried statement to me.

    I’m curious though, if you consider deflecting verbal assaults an onerous challenge, how do you expect to hold out against physical oppression?

  158. Ron Says:

    Translations and definitions:

    generation – the successive members of a genealogy, men of the same stock, a family

    time – the whole multitude of men living at the same time

    age – the time ordinarily occupied by each successive
    generation

    nation – a group of men very like each other in endowments,
    pursuits, character

    Either one is suitably true. None limits the time span to a sinlge, physical familial generation (i.e. around 30 years to grow up and have children).

    Taken all together, the idea of a group of persons (i.e. Christians) through the following ages (i.e. up to now and beyond) is inferred.~Scott

    The context makes it clear that Jesus is addressing his immediate audience.

  159. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I only wonder several things..perhaps your explanations will help. Do you all belief man capable of killing God? Jesus is god, and ‘killed’ by men (his countrymen Jews). Secondly I wonder if you all believe Jesus REALLY died on the cross.

    I understand (as a Muslim) some of Christians believe that that was only appeared as such (but not REALLY died). If didn’t really died, then there was NO fulfillment of pardon for all Christians..right? So he must be died on the cross. Meaning that, the dead of a human being named ‘Jesus’ is not a heresay, but real. Since Jesus is God..as I’ve been asking about this last time also…the question begs…”Can men kill God?”

    Perhaps there are also people who believe both 1) died 2) not died (they believe both “black” and ” “white” at the same time! And they just say: “It seems he died on the cross…but not, it was like a metaphoric event…or such a thing..like action film..

    Is Jesus died (God DIED?).. (If he didn’t..you all have not yet been erased of your “original sins”, remember that..

    Need helps..TQ

  160. Zack T Says:

    Ron,

    Sigh… recanting practically the same responses without signs of understanding what I’ve written.
    To reply would be practically repeating myself, so I shall leave it as that.

    I will comment on the building ‘laws’ thing…
    Code of Hammurabi, now that is what constitute a law. Rule + break that rule = Punishment. But this was from a different time and (probably) different place.
    Then you immediately link that with instructions of building and concluded that Jesus was constituting a new law.

  161. Zack T Says:

    Nasaei,

    The fact that Allah needed to deceive people into thinking they’ve killed Jesus Christ on the cross affirms the fact that a crucifixion did happen… Allah couldn’t just save Jesus without having someone die on the cross.
    Is this a sign of a merciful or almighty god?

    And Jesus is fully man because His flesh is fully that of a man…
    But Jesus’ spirit is fully divine because His spirit is the same as God’s; clothed with the flesh.
    When Jesus was on the cross, His flesh died, but His spirit continued to exist.
    Even Muslims should understand that there is life after physical death, so why keep trying to argue that Christians teach that God died or ceased to exist after Jesus died? is this not straw-man?

  162. simonthongwh Says:

    He wrote that I’m the devil incarnate – no, Ron, you’re not; you’re just a man in his service…a good servant but low down there…

  163. simonthongwh Says:

    Ron – He (Kerry) never implied any such thing. As I’ve already stated in my previous comment, Kerry’s anecdote was intended to provide supporting evidence to Scott’s point about the persecution of Christians during the end times. That’s all. You misconstrued what he meant and took it as an affront.

    How would you know what Kerry implied? You would be the only one who thinks this. Zack does not. Neither do I.

    Perhaps you wrote as Kerry?

  164. simonthongwh Says:

    What I wrote was this:
    Some would call what you do persecution though I call it an engagement of the mind.

    AN ENGAGEMENT OF THE MIND. Not persecutuion.

    But you accuse me of this:
    Well, Simon certainly does. Based on his comments, he’s convinced my “attacks” on his beliefs are a form of persecution.

    I say ONE, and you say that I said TWO.

    Is it an ad hominem for me to point out a fact: you can’t even understand simple English? It’s a factual statement.

  165. wits0 Says:

    “And Jesus is fully man because His flesh is fully that of a man…” – Zack

    Let’s put it in God parlance.

    When God manifested his Self(an infinitely small microcosm of Himself on Earth, his Consciousness) in human form, that form still has to be mortal. That’s the Natural Limitation in this Sphere of Existence.

    Nasaei’s thinking and ethos are constricted….his imagination calcified.

  166. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    So Zack, Jesus died but his spirit continue living? I personally believe you and me will someday die and spirit (roh) will remain…forever. Jesus is like me..and you. Is he God anyway?

    The other thing I didn’t understand about Christianity, is about the creator of the universe..i.e Jesus or the Father (God) that created this universe?…he is also god (I don’t think Holy Ghost).

    Or, three of them cooperated and made it?

  167. Zack T Says:

    Yes, Nasaei, Jesus is God, because He has pre-existed along with God the Father since the beginning and before the world came into existence.

    John 17:5 Jesus prayed to the Father, “And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

    And God made this statement long ago, Isaiah 42:8, “I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.”

    And yes, the creation of the world is attributed to all three.
    God the Father, Psalm 102:25
    Jesus, John 1:1-3, Hebrew 11:3
    Holy Spirit, Genesis 1:2, Job 26:13

  168. Scott Thong Says:

    Nasaei, I think ANY spirit cannot be ‘killed’.

    Put it this way then, humans damaged the physical body that Jesus’ spirit was residing inside of, until that physical body could not function any longer (according to some researchers, because the heart burst).

    So people cannot kill the spirit of God – spirit is no physical, they can’t even harm it! – but can kill the physical body that God’s spirit temporarily inhabits. I think that should be no problem of contradiction.

    We believe that Jesus’ physical body DID stop functioning while on the cross, as Jesus Himself stated that it would happen and indeed, it was His and the Father’s intention to have it happen.

  169. Scott Thong Says:

    Ron,

    Agreed that Jesus was addressing his immediate audience. However that does not preclude that He was addressing them as a group based on beliefs rather than shared temporal location.

    “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”

    Meaning that this group of people who follow the teachings of Jesus will continue to exist until at least the time when the aforementioned prophecies are fulfilled. IMHO there is no problem with that.

  170. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    “…he’s a dirty fighter, extremely dirty.”

    -Simon to Ron.

    (extremely funny as well)

    Ron must follow several rules, standards. But I don’t see him punching and hitting from the wrong way/direction.. he is just like anybody else !

    An atheist should obey rules/laws/values/standard too? nd

  171. loop Says:

    ‘So people cannot kill the spirit of God’

    Sound like Osama.They can kill many Osama but not the spirit of God.

  172. Ron Says:

    To reply would be practically repeating myself, so I shall leave it as that ~ Zack

    Very well, but you’ve left so many questions unanswered. This is the second time I’ve given you an opportunity to put 1 Peter 3:15 into ‘practice’ and now you’re walking away from that responsibility.

    I will comment on the building ‘laws’ thing…
    Code of Hammurabi, now that is what constitute a law. Rule + break that rule = Punishment. But this was from a different time and (probably) different place. ~ Zack

    You wrote: “but I’ve never heard of such laws during Jesus’ time” so I posted a link to Vitruvius (the Roman architect) who died shortly before Jesus birth, which means such laws were in place during first century Judea (which was occupied by Romans). The Bible verses also indicate that Jews had building codes.

    Then you immediately link that with instructions of building and concluded that Jesus was constituting a new law. ~ Zack

    That’s the straw you keep beating on, but my statement was merely a counter-claim to your belief that local building codes wouldn’t have existed during Jesus time; and as I’ve already stated several times, this was a code Jesus expected his disciples to follow. Every organization drafts rules and policies particular to its constituency. Association with that organization is completely voluntary, but once you join, you’re expected to either follow those guidelines, or renounce your membership from the group. Whether or not those rules have legal force outside of (or even within) the organization, is irrelevant.

  173. Ron Says:

    What I wrote was this:
    Some would call what you do persecution though I call it an engagement of the mind.

    AN ENGAGEMENT OF THE MIND. Not persecutuion.

    But you accuse me of this:
    Well, Simon certainly does. Based on his comments, he’s convinced my “attacks” on his beliefs are a form of persecution.

    I say ONE, and you say that I said TWO.

    Is it an ad hominem for me to point out a fact: you can’t even understand simple English? It’s a factual statement. ~Simon

    Technically, it’s both a factual statement (because English is my second language) and an ad hominem (you’re addressing me personally rather than the arguments I’ve made). But since you didn’t know that, I’ll ‘turn the other cheek’ and let it slide.

    Even so, your constant cries of “attack, attack, attack” betray your true state of mind despite later assertions to the contrary (“consider it an engagement of the mind”). However, I’m willing to concede that most people who’ve spent a lifetime cultivating their personal beliefs will perceive any challenge to those beliefs as a personal threat and become defensive towards the person presenting those challenges.

  174. Ron Says:

    Ron,

    Agreed that Jesus was addressing his immediate audience. However that does not preclude that He was addressing them as a group based on beliefs rather than shared temporal location.

    “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”

    Meaning that this group of people who follow the teachings of Jesus will continue to exist until at least the time when the aforementioned prophecies are fulfilled. IMHO there is no problem with that. ~ Scott

    You know, I could probably buy that argument save for the fact that Jesus states the following in another passage:

    “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)

    So, I’ll add another item to my “this would turn me into a believer” list: find me a 2000-year-old man who saw Christ in person.

  175. Ron Says:

  176. Simon Thong Says:

    What I wrote was this:
    Some would call what you do persecution though I call it an engagement of the mind.

    AN ENGAGEMENT OF THE MIND. Not persecutuion.

    But you accuse me of this:
    Well, Simon certainly does. Based on his comments, he’s convinced my “attacks” on his beliefs are a form of persecution.

    I say ONE, and you say that I said TWO.

    Is it an ad hominem for me to point out a fact: you can’t even understand simple English? It’s a factual statement. ~Simon

    1 WHY DON’T YOU FACE FACTS? YOU READ WHAT I WROTE WRONGLY. YOU MISQUOTED WHAT I WROTE. Don’t use the excuse that English is your second language.

    2 You have used ad hominems throughout your arguments.

    You attack christians and other believers in God as irrational.

    You attack christians for not obeying all the laws and rules of the Bible, especially those of Jesus.

    You attack christians for not turning the other cheek.

    You attack christians for killing millions.

    You attack christians PERIOD

    Don’t you even know what you have been doing?

  177. Ron Says:

    You attack christians and other believers in God as irrational. ~Simon

    I challenge the irrational beliefs, not the people who hold them.

    You attack christians for not obeying all the laws and rules of the Bible, especially those of Jesus. ~Simon

    I call out the hypocrisy of anyone who pushes an ideology (religious, political, or otherwise) they themselves refuse to practice.

    You attack christians for not turning the other cheek.~Simon

    It’s the code of ethics prescribed by the book that Christians claim to follow.

    You attack christians for killing millions.~Simon

    Presenting the unvarnished truth is not an attack. Reality bites. Get used to it.

    “You attack christians PERIOD”

    You’re not your job. You’re not how much money you have in the bank. You’re not the car you drive. You’re not the contents of your wallet. You’re not your f*cking khakis. ~Tyler Durden (Fight Club)

    In other words… YOU are NOT the things you identify yourself with.

    Don’t you even know what you have been doing?

  178. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    ‘So people cannot kill the spirit of God’

    “Sound like Osama.They can kill many Osama but not the spirit of God.”

    Joke or no joke, we are discussing a serius topic, about God’ attributes, ‘concept’ of God etc. according to our respective faith. Even among (the followers) ‘peoples of the books’/ or Abrahamic religions, the gap/defference is very contrast, as we acknowledge it.

    Man kills God? Yes ! (His physical body CAN be killed or harmed!)…but not his “sprit”, that was the “answer” as believed.

    I thought (as I firmly believe)…no one can hurt God, be it spirit or ‘physical’ body. No one can see Him now, so he doesn’t need to dodge
    the pelting stones even missiles ! (beside he is omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, most knowing, most benevolent .. etc, etc)

    I don’t see anyone is able to use a catapult to treathen or harm him this far.. I have not see any..anyone…no joke. Serius

  179. simonthongwh Says:

    Simon: Don’t you even know what you have been doing?
    Ron: Don’t you even know what you have been doing?

    Copycat. In Cantonese, tunnel.

  180. opencart opencart support opencart schweiz opencart shop opencart e-commerce opencart team Says:

    opencart opencart support opencart schweiz opencart shop opencart e-commerce opencart team…

    […]First Quarter 2011: Signs of the End Times Checklist « LEADING MALAYSIAN NEOCON[…]…

  181. mmm Says:

    A very important Christian missionary converted to Islam and became a major herald for Islam, he was a very active missionary and was very knowledgeable about the Bible. This man likes mathematics so much, that’s why he likes logic. One day, he decided to read the Qur’an to try to find any mistakes that he might take advantage of while inviting Muslims to convert to Christianity. He expected the Qur’an to be an old book written 14 centuries ago, a book that talks about the desert and so on. He was amazed from what he found.

    He discovered that this Book had what no other book in the world has. He expected to find some stories about the hard time that the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) had, like the death of his wife Khadijah (may Allah be pleased with her) or the death of his sons and daughters. However, he did not find anything like that. And what made him even more confused is that he found a full “Sura” (chapter) in the Qur’an named “Mary” that contains a lot of respect to Mary (peace be upon her) which is not the case even in the books written by Christians nor in their Bibles. He did not find a Sura named after “Fatimah”(the prophet’s daughter) nor “Aishah” (the Prophet’s wife), may Allah (God) be pleased with both of them. He also found that the name of Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was mentioned in the Qur’an 25 times while the name of “Muhammad” (Peace Be Upon Him) was mentioned only 4 times, so he became more confused. He started reading the Qur’an more thoroughly hoping to find a mistake but he was shocked when he read a great verse which is verse number 82 in Surat Al-Nisa’a (Women) that says:

    “Do they not consider the Qur’an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy”.

    Dr Miller says about this verse: “One of the well known scientific principles is the principle of finding mistakes or looking for mistakes in a theory until it’s proved to be right (Falsification Test). What’s amazing is that the Holy Qur’an asks Muslims and non-muslims to try to find mistakes in this book and it tells them that they will never find any”. He also says about this verse: “No writer in the world has the courage to write a book and say that it’s empty of mistakes, but the Qur’an, on the contrary, tells you that it has no mistakes and asks you to try to find one and you won’t find any.”

    Dr. Gary Miller.

    Another verse that Dr Miller reflected on for a long time is the verse number 30 in Surat “Al-Anbiya” (The Prophets):

    “ Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?”

    He says: ”This verse is exactly the subject of the scientific research that won the Noble Prize in 1973 and was about the theory of the “Great Explosion”. According to this theory, the universe was the result of a great explosion that lead to the formation of the universe with its skies and planets.

    Dr Miller says: “Now we come to what’s amazing about the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and what’s pretended about the devils helping him, God says:

    “No evil ones have brought down this (Revelation), it would neither suit them nor would they be able (to produce it). Indeed they have been removed far from even (a chance of) hearing it.” The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 26, Verses 210-212.

    “When thou does read the Qur’an, seek Allah’s protection from Satan the Rejected One” The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 16, Verse 98.

    You see? Can this be the devil’s way to write a book? how can he write a book then tells you to ask God for protection from this devil before reading that book? Those are miraculous verses in this miraculous book! and has a logical answer to those who pretend that it’s from the devil”.

    And among the stories that amazed Dr Miller is the story of the Prophet(PBUH) with Abu-Lahab. Dr Miller says: “This man (Abu Lahab) used to hate Islam so much that he would go after the Prophet wherever he goes to humiliate him. If he saw the prophet talking to strangers, he used to wait till he finishes and then ask them: What did Muhammad tell you? If he said it’s white then it’s in reality black and if he said it’s night then it’s day. He meant to falsify all what the prophet says and to make people suspicious about it. And 10 years before the death of Abu Lahab, a Sura was inspired to the prophet, named “Al-Masad”. This sura tells that Abu Lahab will go to hell, in other words, it says that Abu Lahab will not convert to Islam. During 10 years, Abu Lahab could have said: “Muhammad is saying that I will not become a Muslim and that I will go to the hell fire, but I’m telling you now that I want to convert to Islam and become a Muslim. What do you think about Muhammad now? Is he saying the truth or no? Does his inspiration come from God?”. But Abu Lahab did not do that at all although he was disobeying the prophet in all matters, but not in this one. In other words, it was as if the prophet(PBUH) was giving Abu Lahab a chance to prove him wrong! But he did not do that during 10 whole years! he did not convert to Islam and did not even pretend to be a Muslim!! Throughout 10 years, he had the chance to destroy Islam in one minute! But this did not happen because those are not the words of Muhammad (PBUH) but the words of God Who knows what’s hidden and knows that Abu Lahab will not become a Muslim.

    How can the prophet (PBUH) know that Abu Lahab will prove what is said in that Sura if this was not inspiration from Allah? How can he be sure throughout 10 whole years that what he has (the Qur’an) is true if he did not know that it’s inspiration from Allah?? For a person to take such a risky challenge, this has only one meaning: that this is inspiration from God.

    “Perish the hands of the Father of Flame (Abu Lahab)! perish he! No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains! Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of blazing Flame! His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood; As fuel! A twisted rope of palm-leaf fibre round her (own) neck!” The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 111.

    Dr Miller says about a verse that amazed him: One of the miracles in the Qur’an is challenging the future with things that humans cannot predict and to which the “Falsification Test” applies, this test consists of looking for mistakes until the thing that is being tested is proved to be right. For example, let’s see what the Qur’an said about the relation between Muslims and Jews. Qur’an says that Jews are the major enemies for Muslims and this is true until now as the main enemy for Muslims are the Jews.

    Dr Miller continues: This is considered a great challenge since the Jews have the chance to ruin Islam simply by treating Muslims in a friendly way for few years and then say: here we are treating you as friends and the Qur’an says that we are your enemies, the Qur’an must be wrong then! But this did not happen during 1400 years!! and it will never happen because those are the words of The One who knows the unseen (God) and not the words of humans.

    Dr Miller continues: Can you see how the verse that talks about the enmity between Muslims and Jews constitutes a challenge to the human mind?

    “Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, “We are Christians”: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: “Our Lord! We believe; write us down among the witnesses” The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 5, Verses 82-84.

    This verse applies to Dr Miller as he was a Christian but when he knew the truth, he believed and converted to Islam and became a herald. May Allah support him.

    Dr Miller says about the unique style of the Qur’an that he finds wonderful: No doubt there is something unique and amazing in Qur’an that is not present anywhere else, as the Qur’an gives you a specific information and tells you that you did not know this before. For example:

    “This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Prophet!) by inspiration: thou was not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Maryam: nor was thou with them when they disputed (the point)” The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 3, Verse 44.

    “Such are some of the stories of the Unseen, which We have revealed unto thee: before this, neither thou nor thy People knew them. So persevere patiently: for the End is for those who are righteous” The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 11, Verse 49.

    “Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee: nor was thou (present) with them when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots” The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 12, Verse 102.

    Dr Miller continues: “No other holy book uses this style, all the other books consist of information that tells you where this information came from. For example, when the Holy Bible talks about the stories of the ancient nations, it tells you that a this King lived in a this place and a that leader fought in that battle, and that a certain person had a number of kids and their names are. But this book (Bible) always tells you that if you want to know more, you can read a certain book since that information came from that book”.

    Dr Garry Miller continues: “This is in contrary to the Qur’an which gives you the information and tells you that it’s new!! And what’s amazing is that the people of Mecca at that time (time of inspiration of those verses) used to hear those verses and the challenge that the information in those verses was new and was not known by Muhammad (PBUH) nor by his people at that time, and despite that, they never said: We know this and it is not new, and they did not say: We know where Muhammad came from with those verses. This never happened, but what happened is that nobody dared to say that he was lying to them because those was really new information, not coming from the human mind but from Allah who knows the unseen in the past, the present and the future”.

  182. mmm Says:

    Suppose that someone observed Jesus two-thousand years ago, and he left this planet, or he went to sleep for two-thousand years and returned today to look for the followers of Jesus, who would he find? Who would he recognize? Christians?

    I conclude with just this food for thought: the Bible says very clearly that Jesus used to fast. Do Christians fast? Muslims fast; it is obligatory on month every year.

    The Bible says that Jesus prayed by touching his forehead to the ground. Do Christians pray in this manner? Muslims do. It is characteristic of their prayer and no one on earth is probably ignorant of that fact.

    According to Jesus, he told his disciples to greet one another with the expression, “Peace be with you.” Do the Christians do that? Muslims do, universally, whether they speak Arabic of not. The greeting for one to another is Assalamu’ alaikum (peace be with you).

    The brother of Jesus in the Book of James, stated that no man should suggest what he is about to do of highlight his plans for the next few days in anyway without adding the phrase “if God wills.” Do not say “I will go here and there do this and that” without adding the phrase “if God wills.” Do Christians do that? Muslims do, whether they speak Arabic or not. If they so much as suggest they are going downtown to pick up some groceries, they will add Insha-Allah, which in Arabic means, “If God wills.”

    These conclude my thoughts on this subject. May Allah guide us always closer to the truth.

  183. Scott Thong Says:

    First of all, are you allowed to copy and paste the entire article from this site?

    http://islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=215

    That having been said, allow me to respond to your unoriginal copy-paste job.

    ——————————-

    And what made him even more confused is that he found a full “Sura” (chapter) in the Qur’an named “Mary” that contains a lot of respect to Mary (peace be upon her) which is not the case even in the books written by Christians nor in their Bibles. He did not find a Sura named after “Fatimah”(the prophet’s daughter) nor “Aishah” (the Prophet’s wife), may Allah (God) be pleased with both of them.

    That is because true Christians do not hold Mary to be anything other than a God-fearing woman.

    Look at the double standard above – the writer notes that the Bible does not contain a whole Gospel dedicated to Mary (an ordinary person in Christian belief, not a prophet or blameless), yet is surprised that the Quran does not contain whole Suras dedicated to Fatimah or Aishah (ordinary persons in Islamic belief, not prophets or blameless).

    ——————————-

    He also found that the name of Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was mentioned in the Qur’an 25 times while the name of “Muhammad” (Peace Be Upon Him) was mentioned only 4 times, so he became more confused.

    This is a red herring, and also a subtle insult.

    For the Quran mentions Jesus as merely a prophet, not even on par with Muhamad! That is an insult to Christians who believe that Jesus was divine, God in the flesh.

    For comparison, books by unbelievers such as Christianity-bashers contain hundreds of mentions of the name Jesus. However, the name appears in the context of mocking, derision and disrespect. Can you argue that because such works mention Jesus so many times, they are even more respectful of Him than the Bible or Quran?

    ——————————-

    Dr Miller says about this verse: “One of the well known scientific principles is the principle of finding mistakes or looking for mistakes in a theory until it’s proved to be right (Falsification Test). What’s amazing is that the Holy Qur’an asks Muslims and non-muslims to try to find mistakes in this book and it tells them that they will never find any”. He also says about this verse: “No writer in the world has the courage to write a book and say that it’s empty of mistakes, but the Qur’an, on the contrary, tells you that it has no mistakes and asks you to try to find one and you won’t find any.”

    Most books do not make this claim because their boast looks extra foolish when there is a mistake.

    Sadly, the Quran falls victim to this self-made trap!

    http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/11/quran-error-does-sun-set-in-muddy.htmlQur’an 18:83-86 — And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.

    ——————————-

    He says: ”This verse is exactly the subject of the scientific research that won the Noble Prize in 1973 and was about the theory of the “Great Explosion”.

    It’s spelled ‘Nobel’ laaa.

    ——————————-

    “No evil ones have brought down this (Revelation), it would neither suit them nor would they be able (to produce it). Indeed they have been removed far from even (a chance of) hearing it.” The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 26, Verses 210-212.

    Uhhh, sorry to break it to you but…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_VersesAs he was reciting Sūra an-Najm, considered a revelation by the angel Gabriel, Satan tempted him to utter the following lines after verses 19 and 20

    You see? Can this be the devil’s way to write a book? how can he write a book then tells you to ask God for protection from this devil before reading that book? Those are miraculous verses in this miraculous book! and has a logical answer to those who pretend that it’s from the devil”.

    What the???

    From science suddenly jump to philosophy???

    And it’s a false dilemma!!!

    Criminals send out emails with false advice all the time, where they tell you to click on this link or run this program to ‘protect yourself from virus/hacking’. Do you really think they are being honest, truthful or sincere in giving you this advice on how to protect yourself from criminals? How naive!

    If I used your logic here, I could argue: You see? Can this be the criminal’s way to write an email? how can he write an email then tells you to do certain steps for protection from computer virus before browsing the Internet? Those are miraculous verses in this miraculous email! and has a logical answer to those who pretend that it’s from the criminal scammers”.

    ——————————-

    In other words, it was as if the prophet(PBUH) was giving Abu Lahab a chance to prove him wrong! But he did not do that during 10 whole years! he did not convert to Islam and did not even pretend to be a Muslim!! Throughout 10 years, he had the chance to destroy Islam in one minute! But this did not happen because those are not the words of Muhammad (PBUH) but the words of God Who knows what’s hidden and knows that Abu Lahab will not become a Muslim.

    What a horrible choise.

    You mean to say that Muhammad gave Abu Lahab two options – convert to Islam to prove Muhammad wrong (but thereby discard all his own convictions and adopt a faith he doesn’t believe in), or don’t convert to Islam and prove Muhammad right?

    Either way Muhammad wins. Heads he wins, tails Abu Lahab loses.

    What kind of choice is this? Horrible.

    And sadly, other critics were not so fortunate:

    http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Murder.IslamIshaq: 676: “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said. ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”

    ——————————-

    Dr Miller says about a verse that amazed him: One of the miracles in the Qur’an is challenging the future with things that humans cannot predict and to which the “Falsification Test” applies, this test consists of looking for mistakes until the thing that is being tested is proved to be right. For example, let’s see what the Qur’an said about the relation between Muslims and Jews. Qur’an says that Jews are the major enemies for Muslims and this is true until now as the main enemy for Muslims are the Jews.

    My goodness, the ridiculous illogicness level just went to 11!

    You know what a self-fulfilling prophecy is?

    It’s like the Quran saying that Jews and Muslims will be enemies, and Muslims reading that and also many others passages belittling the Jews and commanding that they fight and kill and discriminate against and hate the Jews, and then Muslims go out and attack Jews even if Jews don’t want to fight, and then the Muslims saying “Oh look how correct the Quran’s prophecy is, the Jews are our enemies to this day just like it says!”

    That’s self-fulfilling prophecy for you!

    ——————————-

    Dr Miller continues: This is considered a great challenge since the Jews have the chance to ruin Islam simply by treating Muslims in a friendly way for few years and then say: here we are treating you as friends and the Qur’an says that we are your enemies, the Qur’an must be wrong then! But this did not happen during 1400 years!! and it will never happen because those are the words of The One who knows the unseen (God) and not the words of humans.

    Maybe it doesn’t happen because Muslims continually persecute the Jews?

    Remember the Bani Quraytha Jews, who surrendered to Muhammad under promise of mercy – and then were slaughtered by him? http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Jews/BQurayza/treaty.html

    Or the 1066 Granada massacre? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre

    ——————————-

    Dr Miller continues: Can you see how the verse that talks about the enmity between Muslims and Jews constitutes a challenge to the human mind?

    Can you see how the illogicness of Dr Miller’s argument above challenges the sanity of the human mind?

    And anyway, the Bible beat the Quran to this prophecy long ago:

    http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/963-his-hand-against-every-manHe will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.

    That is about Ishmael (father of the Arabs) who bullied his half-brother Isaac (father of the Jews) from a young age.

    ——————————-

    Dr Miller continues: “No other holy book uses this style, all the other books consist of information that tells you where this information came from. For example, when the Holy Bible talks about the stories of the ancient nations, it tells you that a this King lived in a this place and a that leader fought in that battle, and that a certain person had a number of kids and their names are. But this book (Bible) always tells you that if you want to know more, you can read a certain book since that information came from that book”.

    I doubt that Dr Miller was ever a true Christian or even one who read the Bible properly.

    There are countless passages in the Bible that are just like those ‘new knowledge’ ones in the Quran – passages proclaiming amazing things that the reader must accept by faith, with no ‘references’ – such as the creation of all things by God, or that Jesus is the only way to be saved.

    And isn’t it like him to take a weakness of the Quran and dishonestly try to turn it into a strength?

    For when a book makes references to other sources correctly, then you know that it is accurate! The Bible has many such instances, which is a source of pride to Christians as modern research proves the Bible correct again and again!

    For example, the Bible mentions Cyrus’ decree to free the Jews, which was proven by archaeology.

    https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/the-cyrus-cylinder-not-isolated-and-not-vague-verification-of-the-bibles-historical-account/

    Does the Quran have any similar claim that can be checked by unbelievers?

    ————————-

    Also!

    I noticed that on that site you borrowed/stole from, the cover image of the book features a fetus in the womb.

    Did you know that Islamic ‘facts’ about the formation of the fetus are incredibly wrong???

    http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.html – The idea that bones are clothed with flesh is not only scientifically completely false, but is directly copied from the ancient Greek doctor Galen

    And just like you stole the article from the site without acknowledgement, the early Muslim writers stole the (wrong) Greek ideas about fetal development without acknowledgement!

    Birds of a feather!

  184. Scott Thong Says:

    I conclude with just this food for thought: the Bible says very clearly that Jesus used to fast. Do Christians fast? Muslims fast; it is obligatory on month every year.

    The above just shows how ignorant you are about Christians. Do you even mix around true ones?

    Have you never heard of the 40 Day Prayer and Fast? http://www.necf.org.my/index.cfm?menuid=177

    Do you know nothing of the 2000 year old tradition of Lent? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lent

    Christians fast just as Jesus did – for a purpose and out of their own free will and devotion, without making sour faces or boasting about it (the way the hypocrites do). Not as an unhappy obligation under threat of legal punishments the way Muslims do.

    ———————–

    The Bible says that Jesus prayed by touching his forehead to the ground. Do Christians pray in this manner? Muslims do. It is characteristic of their prayer and no one on earth is probably ignorant of that fact.

    Doubly ignorant! Where does Jesus say that this is the ONLY way we are to pray? He did not even tell us to do this, merely He did it Himself on SOME occassions! So Jesus Himself did not always pray in that way, who are you to tell us that we must ALWAYS pray in that way???

    Jesus gives advice in many passages, such as Matthew 6 (The Lord’s Prayer, do not pray to get attention).

    In fact, if a Christian were to bow with his head to the floor in public, we would shake our heads because he is obviously trying to get approving attention from others – which was specifically warned against by Jesus!

    Tell me that all Muslims do not bow their heads to the ground in order to get the adulation of men. Or else, why is this ‘prayer bump’ considered such a mark of honour and esteem by those who have it? Pride and hubris!

    ———————–

    According to Jesus, he told his disciples to greet one another with the expression, “Peace be with you.” Do the Christians do that? Muslims do, universally, whether they speak Arabic of not. The greeting for one to another is Assalamu’ alaikum (peace be with you).

    This is even more ignorant. There is no such command from Jesus in the Bible.

    Search for yourself: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=peace+be+with+you&version1=NIV&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no&resultspp=500&displayas=long&sort=bookorder

    At most, this is what Jesus sometimes used to greet people. He never said we must do it the same way.

    Ignorant!

    ———————–

    The brother of Jesus in the Book of James, stated that no man should suggest what he is about to do of highlight his plans for the next few days in anyway without adding the phrase “if God wills.” Do not say “I will go here and there do this and that” without adding the phrase “if God wills.” Do Christians do that? Muslims do, whether they speak Arabic or not. If they so much as suggest they are going downtown to pick up some groceries, they will add Insha-Allah, which in Arabic means, “If God wills.”

    Good gracious, WHERE DO YOU GET ALL YOUR WRONG INFORMATION FROM?????!!!!

    I ask this because you obviously didn’t look in a real Bible to check it before spewing your nonsense here!!!

    Here is the likely passage you are referring to:

    Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil. If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them. – James 4:13-17

    The gist is not about saying this or saying that, but rather on the way one conducts their life! Good grief, how shallow is your reading of Scripture?

    What’s more, it specifically warns against BOASTING! And as I said, all the outward appearance things you say Muslims do – and Christians don’t – is basically boasting!

    And it’s not a command! At the very most, just a recommendation – and for those who conduct their lives as if God has no say in it!

    You keep focusing on the appearances – act this way, talk that way – but Jesus and the Apostles kept repeating that outward appearances are worthless, it is the inward heart and the way we conduct our lives that really counts!

    You know who was excellent in outward behaviour and appearance, but rotten inside? The Pharisees! That is the end result of only following the outward actions, without having a sincere heart.

    You know NOTHING about true Christianity. And you still presume to lecture Christians about how to please Jesus?

    Presumptuous!

    ———————–

    These conclude my thoughts on this subject. May Allah guide us always closer to the truth.

    What is the point of your entire comment? To argue that Muslims are better followers of Jesus than Christians are?

    So why don’t you just become a Christian then?

    ———————–

    And now I will throw a challenge to you! Think carefully before you answers.

    Hundreds and thousands of Muslims are engaged in violence. They behead Buddhist monks in Thailand, blow up trains in Spain, bomb fellow Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan, kill women and children Christian villagers in Nigeria.

    Killing thousands of innocent people is much worse than merely not fasting or not bowing down to pray, wouldn’t you agree?

    My question to you: Are all these Muslims in disobedience to the Quran, the Hadith, the Sunnah and Muhammad’s example?

  185. suzanne Says:

    We are almost (actually already there) at the time of the Rapture. The second beast has been revealed (to me at least), coming from the ground (as foretold) several weeks ago.

    They look like Greys (just a level of conditioning at work making us believe they are ‘good’ or ‘alien’ rather than Satan’s creation). They may seem harmless, but they can analyze with great intelligence and dominate many New Age cults (like Harbin Hot Springs, hence it’s ‘burning’ down, last month…why? perhaps judgement….I don’t personally know) and other similar groups (any that worship satan, directly or indirectly, like many (all?) esoteric teachings). This one may be raising from the Nevada arena (I am just thinking…one way to ‘produce’ them with our level of technology might be available, via Illuminati machinery/technology).

    Jesus revealed that now is the time for us to be ‘heading toward the cross”.

    It is time to prepare for the rapture and all that follows (harvest period and second beast domination).

    I havn’t spoken on-line about it because dominion of the internet has been taken by demons and the like (as forewarned). I personally experience them attacking me whenever I comment now. I trust the Lord to protect me tonight, while broadcasting this Heavenly news.

    I have lived through several of Revelations predictions. One, as an example is, the demon horde that attacks (horseman) humans and tortures them for five months prior to killing them, has occurred (finished) May of 2015.

    You might not have realized it because they (the humans who forfeited their souls) didn’t actually die. Their human bodies still walk around. But their souls are no longer in them (I have seen first hand, both presented to me spiritually and experienced in physicality).

    May Jesus and the Lord our God, I pray, be with us in this cherished time of forgiving and re-union with our Lord of Host and God, King of the Universe and Creator of all.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s


%d bloggers like this: