DISCUSSIONS, REVIEWS & FOLLOW-UPS TO THE CRAIG / WHITE DISCUSSION ON UNBELIEVABLE


The actual discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECcN-fisQRk

Mirror: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2cmVGTbHFA

Related memes at bottom of post.

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Rather than do yet another review, since I move around so many groups and channels with a different mix of views, I thought I’d summarize some of the key observations many of them noticed.

1) The topic was supposed to be on the problem of evil and which view best can address it – some wish that it had stayed more on that point, instead of delving into WHETHER either view is true.

2) The general perception is that White relied on Scripture while Craig didn’t. While Craig did respond on several prooftexts and bring up some of his own, many feel that he should have cited more passages. (It doesn’t help when various parties are right now actively pushing the line that Craig and Molinism do not in any way link to Scripture.)

3) White did cite Bible passages often, but people find it puzzling why those are considered slamdunk proof of determinism – as Craig pushed back on. White also seems to flatly assert/assume that the prophets & apostles clearly teach Calvinism/determinism. Further discussions about those prooftexts by reviewers generally finds other viable ways to understand the text.

4) The part around 19:00 struck many as a very odd thing for White to say – White is too complicated for himself to know what he will do, so that means God won’t know either? Huh??? This was compared to the Open Theist view that God cannot know thing which don’t exist (yet), such as the future free decisions of people.

5) White comes across as combative, angry and on the attack – he focuses mainly on the negative case against Molinism than the positive case for Calvinism. Many who aren’t aligned with either side noted this prominently.

6) Many noted that Craig readily admits both the philosophical nature of Molinism as a way to comprehend what the Bible teaches, and its relative lateness on the scene – while both the same are also true for Calvinism but White is reluctant to admit it.

7) White also seemed reluctant to directly answer Craig’s repeated charge that determinism makes God the author of evil. (White has stated his views more bluntly on other occasions, perhaps he realizes how distasteful it would sound on a general-audience show.)

8.) On the topic of philosophy, many point out that White seemed unprepared for the issues related to Molinism that he himself brought up – for example, Truthmaker Maximalism in relation to the Grounding Objection.

9) MANY people noticed and did not take well to White’s repeated mention of Molina being a Jesuit ‘counter-reformer’. It comes across as (and likely is) Genetic Fallacy and an attempt at Poisoning the Well. (White is no stranger to this outside this discussion – he is rather infamous for bogeymanning those he disagrees with as synergist, Pelagian, Open Theist, or ‘Rome’.)

10) Craig bringing out that Reformed Dogmatics book at 72:30 was a mic drop moment.



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The following not in chronological order of release, I try and put responses to responses together with the earlier ones first……..

James White follow up to the discussion 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eJ1KLW5KXs

James White follow up to the Unbelievable discussion 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAcaQvchrKg

James White follow up to the Unbelievable discussion 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrLoI5IltYo
Tim Stratton’s response to the above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw04TD8WVGU

Tim Stratton & Tyson James review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1PhNZ8ZME4

James White response to the above first follow up by White: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISjJVbzGGQ4 & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb-QvlldBBg

Tim Stratton & Tyson James response to the response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJMp124rrOc

James White response to the above, with some shade thrown at Leighton Flowers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epVg7qbkFOs

Leighton Flowers response to the above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjkZNHcTQGw

William Lane Craig reviews the discussion and responded to a snippet of the above Flowers video: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/reasonable-faith-podcast/id252618197?i=1000544977989&fbclid=IwAR3O5bOChFLnW1z-EPu3J1N7iI-dM6TmJGXXNtddLPlU_qQ3ZoSejOsKxxs

Flowers addresses it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3R82CltuVE

White responds to the Craig review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKv9qD9622c

Flowers responds to White’s remarks on the Craig response to a snippet of Flowers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZauOhus02SA

More James White response to Stratton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsfnbwl01lw

Third round of Stratton & James response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-rZhz3Ca6k

Adam Lloyd Johnson review of the Unbelievable discussion, which Stratton mentions in the above: https://convincingproof.org/calvinism-vs-molinism-white-craig-debate-commentary/

James White on the Truthmaker Maximalism issue from the discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS9S6LnR-w0

James White responses on Tyson James’ presentation of Psalm 33: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2bL_mACriA and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnnffMFrQvw

Fourth round of Stratton and James response to the above White videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQy5vo3rlpU

Fifth round of Stratton and James response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y64_H0p6qfc

Mike Winger’s thoughts: https://www.facebook.com/MikeWingerBibleThinker/posts/450748703286527

Sam Shamoun review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYkwTiKe4Nw

James White on Eli Ayala’s show: https://youtu.be/G74B8vdsgIw

Sentinel Apologetics review which includes some response to the above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wp4IQa31K0

Leighton Flowers & Eric Hernandez review, had to be cut short and will be continued at another time due to bad Internet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VovM_ei_YGM

Leighton Flowers & Eric Hernandez review, continued: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edSrbxcuAb4

The above cross-posted on Eric Hernandez’s channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CcG7LJgYTM

James White article responding to a Facebook post about White’s truthmaker maximalism: https://www.aomin.org/aoblog/theologymatters/tremendous-theological-confusion/?fbclid=IwAR0UBe6Br7Aq2MKwx_yNpvTEDtOYJd3XOkonx5IxPGhiurx8qd_d3rY-HN4

Summary and review by Wintery Knight: https://winteryknight.com/2021/12/06/william-lane-craig-and-james-white-debate-calvinism-vs-molinism

Eli Ayala and Guillaume Bignon review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGUi5ZZkAzs

Owen Anderson review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ9EXcyxHMQ

Tim Stratton & Ryan Mullins review, with focus on White’s claim that Calvinism is direct from Scripture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVI1eeDG4Oc

James Owen review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ9EXcyxHMQ

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(Above from… William Lane Craig responded to a snippet of the above, Flowers addresses it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3R82CltuVE)

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