The Obamessiah (134 Adulations)


When Godless liberals knoweth not the Lord Jesus Christ, Barack Obama is becometh their New Liberal Messiah…

(Via Ace of Spades HQ, an article detailing the new liberal pseudo-religion of Obama worship.)

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Most of the following are from Is Barack Obama the Messiah? and Moonbattery. A nice roundup video can be found here.

1) From the Associated Press:

The Obamessiah

2) From Obama supporters:

Plans are being made to promote a national holiday for Barack Obama, who will become the nation’s 44th president when he takes the oath of office Jan. 20.

“Yes We Can” planning rallies will be at 7 a.m. and 7 p.m. every Tuesday at the downtown McDonald’s restaurant, 1100 Kansas Ave., until Jan. 13. The goals are to secure a national holiday in Obama’s honor, to organize celebrations around his inauguration and to celebrate the 200th birthday of President Abraham Lincoln, who was born on Feb. 12 1809.

Plans, however, are suffering from a lack of support… They got kicked out of the McDonalds they always meet at.

3) From the official Obama website:

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4) From Time.com:

Some princes are born in palaces. Some are born in mangers. But a few are born in the imagination, out of scraps of history and hope.

5) From designer Ray Noland:

The Obamessiah

6) From Jesse Jackson Jr., reacting to Obama getting the Democrat candidate nomination:

I cried all night. I’m going to be crying for the next four years. What Barack Obama has accomplished is the single most extraordinary event that has occurred in the 232 years of the nation’s political history. ?The event itself is so extraordinary that another chapter could be added to the Bible to chronicle its significance.

(Compare what Revelation 22:18-19 says).

7) From New York Magazine:

The Obamessiah

8.) From Daily Kos:

What if all of the religious nuts were bashing the second coming of their Christ and they didn’t even know it? Fathered by a Kenyan Muslim profit who left after his task was done. To seed a woman who in the heartland of America(a country who “is losing its way”). Then takes him on a journey of awaking across the world, then back home to spread the word of the lord through a process of education an then actions in the community.

The bible says “the lord shall come as a man whom blind followers will not see”.

9) From ManifestObama.com:

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10) From Democrat Steven Cohen, D-Tennesee:

“Barack Obama was a community organizer like Jesus, Pontius Pilate was a governor.”

11) From the Manifest Hope gallery:

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12) From Obama himself:

Obama cited in asking which Biblical passages should guide public policy – chapters like Leviticus, which Obama said suggests slavery is OK and eating shellfish is an abomination, or Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, “a passage that is so radical that it’s doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application.”

13) From the Associated Press:

The Obamessiah

14) From Peter Hitchens on a tip from Change:

It already has all the signs of such a thing. The newspapers which recorded Obama’s victory have become valuable relics. You may buy Obama picture books and Obama calendars and if there isn’t yet a children’s picture version of his story, there soon will be.

If you can believe that this undistinguished and conventionally Left-wing machine politician is a sort of secular saviour, then you can believe anything. He plainly doesn’t believe it himself. His cliche-stuffed, PC clunker of an acceptance speech suffered badly from nerves. It was what you would expect from someone who knew he’d promised too much and that from now on the easy bit was over.

Just look at his sermon by the shores of Lake Michigan. He really did talk about a ‘new dawn’, and a ‘timeless creed’ (which was ‘yes, we can’). He proclaimed that ‘change has come’. He revealed that, despite having edited the Harvard Law Review, he doesn’t know what ‘enormity’ means. He reached depths of oratorical drivel never even plumbed by our own Mr Blair, burbling about putting our hands on the arc of history (or was it the ark of history?) and bending it once more toward the hope of a better day (Don’t try this at home).

I am not making this up. No wonder that awful old hack Jesse Jackson sobbed as he watched. How he must wish he, too, could get away with this sort of stuff.

15) From Director Spike Lee:

“When that happens, it will change everything. … You’ll have to measure time by `Before Obama’ and `After Obama,’” Lee said during the panel. “It’s an exciting time to be alive now.” …

“Everything’s going to be affected by this seismic change in the universe,” he said.

16) From Michelle Obama:

Barack Obama is the ONLY person in this who understands that. That before we can work on the problems, we have to fix our souls. Our souls are broken in this nation.

17) From Obama’s Democrat nomination victory speech:

I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal; this was the moment when we ended a war and secured our nation and restored our image as the last, best hope on Earth.

18.) From a blogger in the South Florida Sun Sentinel:

I can’t believe the man whose speeches I watch on YouTube everyday is so close to me. his speeches give an aura of immortality that belies the fact that he’s a living breathing human

19) From Official Barack Obama Campaign Advertisement, Kentucky, May 2008:

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20) From Wilamette’s Week:

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21) From Obama rally in Montana:

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22) From Steve Davis:

I have been examining the Obama phenomenon myself, and have concluded, at least for myself, a Midwestern white male, that Barack’s appeal is actually messianic, it’s something about his aura, his spirit, his soul, that exudes enlightenment in the making.

Oh, he’s not fully enlightened, being that enlightenment is a process, not an event. But for reasons I can’t fully articulate, he is one of those individuals who communicates God-like energy (metaphorically speaking), in whom you can ‘feel’ God.

Now, I’m using the term ‘God’ to mean the loving, honest, just, and inspiring part of the force behind it all. You may not believe something’s behind it all, but I do. And I look for God constantly – that which exudes love, integrity, humility, depth, kindness, generosity – and more … supposedly.

So, Geraldine, I’m taking a special look at Barack Obama because he’s a lot closer to a Jesus-type than the other candidates, by quite a bit. What if God decided to incarnate as men preaching ‘hope and change.’And what if we didn抰 recognize them, because we are so dull, and let them slip away, not availing ourselves of the opportunity to be led by God! Lord knows we’ve elected the anti-Christ often enough. Excuse me, George.

23) From Calypso artiste The Mighty Sparrow:

“He’s no ordinary man,” said Sparrow, who calls Obama a man of resplendid vision with the wisdom of Solomon, the biblical king of Israel. “I see people my age in the 70s, 80s, 60s, 50s screaming out in appreciation like when the Beatles first came to America. I can’t believe that older people would react that way. That is one of the reasons why I believe he was sent by the Messiah.”

24) From Peter Wierenga, World:

Barack Obama strides into that void. While voicing ‘other worldly’ themes he suggests ‘this world’ solutions. His soaring oratory and his ambitious promises make his appeal to hope and his drive for change seem reasonable and attainable. He appeals to all that is innate and created in us in a longing for that ‘better country, that is a heavenly one’ discussed in Hebrews 11.

And he offers fulfillment in his election to the presidency at which time he will unleash the power of government to set things right in a world currently turned upside down. Thus he offers a messianic hope with the full weight and force of the U.S. government to back him up. For many right now, with the youth leading the way, this is a compelling combination. Heaven on earth is indeed appealing rather than having to wait.

25) From commentor on Chicago Sun-Times blog:

What he is offering is an agreement between struggles and a covenant for perfection, in that nothing is impossible if one begins with hope and the assurance of faith.

That is all that matters, no matter what the political outcome is, he has tapped into a force greater than what we have ever faced, he speaks directly to our hearts, bypassing our conscience and connecting with the root of our psyche.

26) From Obama himself:

“God had a plan for his people. He told them to stand together and march together around the city – and when the horn sounded and a chorus of voices cried out together, the mighty walls of Jericho came tumbling down.”

“Walk with me, march with me – and if enough of our voices join together, we can bring those walls tumbling down.”

27) From Jacques Steinberg, New York Times:

It’s so rapturous, everything around him. All these huge rallies.

28.) From Obama Campaign online banner advertisement for the Houston Chronicle:

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29) From Rolling Stone:

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30) From Reuters:

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31) From the Associated Press:

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32) From Jesse Jackson:

Many had come just to hear him speak. Some cried. Others just waved their hands.

“He’s running a theological campaign,” said the Rev. Jesse Jackson, who ran for president in 1984 and 1988. “At some point, he took off his arms and grew wings.”

33) From Louis Farrakhan:

“This young man is the hope of the entire world that America will change and be made better,” he said. “This young man is capturing audiences of black and brown and red and yellow. If you look at Barack Obama’s audiences and look at the effect of his words, those people are being transformed.”

“A black man with a white mother became a savior to us.”

34) From a band in Austin, Texas:

University of Texas guys with painted faces flash the longhorn symbol with their fingers, red-white-and-blue beach balls bounce through the crowd, a band plays ‘Obama-alujah’ and thousands stand in the chill night ready to be rapturous

35) From Graeme Morton, Calgary Herald:

But what if God is trying to make a statement in 2008 through the meteoric rise of a new symbol — a charismatic, eloquent senator from Illinois who is turning conventional American politics on its head

36) From Dallas Morning News:

It was more like church  – not the stuffy kind, but roof-shaking soul church where people testify and dance in the aisles when the spirit’s upon them.

37) From The Baltimore Sun:

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38.) From Obama himself:

I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth.

The Obamessiah

39) From David Wright, Oprah and Obama:

DAVID WRIGHT: We’ve been to dozens of huge rallies like this in dozens of states and with every victory, Obama’s congregation seems to be growing. If you’ve never been to an Obama rally before, a word of advice, go early.

OBAMA: If you arrive together, we will remake this country and we will remake the world.

OBAMA: Keep me in your prayers. You know, make sure that everybody is praying and give me that protective blanket over it.

WRIGHT: Obama’s true believers respond as though they’ve spent their whole lives out in the cold. At rally after rally, a few people literally faint.

WRIGHT: Politics doesn’t even begin to describe it. A visit to an Obama rally is a pilgrimage.

OBAMA: There is a moment in the life of every generation, if it is to make its mark on history, where that spirit of hope has to come through.

OPRAH WINFREY: Disappointment doesn’t have to be normal anymore. For the first time, I’m stepping out of my pew because I’ve been inspired.

OBAMA: Thank you, Oprah. And I love you.

40) From Politico:

At an Omaha, Neb., rally the day before, supporters leaned perilously over railings, screaming and crying, trying to touch Obama as he passed.

The Obamessiah

41) From an Obama fan poster:

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42) From Neil MacDonald, CBCNews.com:

What voters are really choosing, he says, is between the past and the future.

The future to which he refers, of course, is him. He will take Americans to a colour-blind, rational, humanist place where a common good will overpower narrow self-interest.

This promise moves Obama’s fans close to rapture.

43) From campaign rally at the University of Maryland in College Park, Maryland:

The Obamessiah

44) From Washington correspondent Geoff Elliott:

The atmosphere at his events is such that one wonders if Obama is about to walk out with a basket with some loaves and fishes to feed the thousands.

45) From Pam Lockridge:

“That’s important. But there has been a change. People want something new. Obama is like the new wine.

46) From Obama himself:

We are the hope of the future; the answer to the cynics who tell us our house must stand divided; that we cannot come together; that we cannot remake this world as it should be.

Because we know what we have seen and what we believe – that what began as a whisper has now swelled to a chorus that cannot be ignored; that will not be deterred; that will ring out across this land as a hymn that will heal this nation, repair this world, and make this time different than all the rest – Yes. We. Can.

47) From Chris Matthews:

I’ve never seen anything like this. This is bigger than Kennedy. [Obama] comes along, and he seems to have the answers. This is the New Testament. This is surprising.”

48.) From CBS:

The Obamessiah

49) From Obama himself:

So I am going to try to be so persuasive in the 20 minutes or so that I speak that by the time this is over, a light will shine down from somewhere.

It will light upon you. You will experience an epiphany. And you will say to yourself, I have to vote for Barack. I have to do it.

50) From Ezra Klein:

Obama’s finest speeches do not excite. They do not inform. They don’t even really inspire. They elevate. They enmesh you in a grander moment, as if history has stopped flowing passively by, and, just for an instant, contracted around you, made you aware of its presence, and your role in it. He is not the Word made flesh, but the triumph of word over flesh, over color, over despair.

51) From Oprah Winfrey:

“It’s amazing grace that brought me here,” she began, adding that she was “stepping out of my pew” – television ?to engage in politics.

It isn’t enough to tell the truth, Winfrey said. “We need politicians who know how to be the truth.”

52) From Mr Rush:

“I think that Obama, his election to the Senate, was divinely ordered,” Mr. Rush said, all other explanations failing. “As a preacher and a pastor; I know that that was God’s plan. Obama has certain qualities that, I think he is being used for some purpose. I really believe that.

53) From Reuters:

The Obamessiah

54) From Morgan Freeman:

When Morgan Freeman comes over to greet Obama, the senator begins bowing down both hands in worship. “This guy was president before I was,” says Obama, referring to Freeman’s turn in Deep Impact and, clearly, getting a little ahead of his own bio. Next, a nod to Bruce Almighty: “This guy was God before I was.” (Okay, more than a little ahead.) But Freeman is eating it up. Leaning in, he tells the senator to win it. “I will,” Obama replies. “That’s why I’m running.”

55) From Brenda Bladen:

“I’m not comparing him to Jesus Christ but…” she said, before talking about the senator’s humble beginnings.

56) From Noah Norman to the Washington Post:

“Obama has this almost irrational following and I myself can’t sometimes explain why I’m supporting him,” Noah Norman, 25, recently told the Washington Post.

He’s all things to all men. At least that’s how I put it.”

57) From Louis Farrakhan:

“President-elect Obama has energized all segments of the depressed, downtrodden, rejected and despised,” he said in a 90-minute speech at Mosque Maryam on the city’s South Side. “Now it is up to us to take the new energy that he has given us … and channel that energy into making ourselves better.”

Farrakhan, who said Obama draws a “oneness of spirit” from all people, admitted he stayed quiet about his support for Obama during the past few months out of fear his words would harm the Illinois senator’s bid for the White House.

58.) From Dorothy Cotton, a new spiritual “Tell me, tell me, why was Obama born?” for the soon-to-come Obamamas holidays:

59) From a mainly black county in Alabama:

A small central Alabama county whose mainly black residents gave Barack Obama more than 70 percent of the vote on Election Day has created an annual holiday in honor of the president-elect.

The Perry County Commission voted 4 to 1 to observe the second Monday in November as “The Barack Obama Day.” County offices will close and its roughly 40 workers will get a paid holiday.

60) From San Francisco:

San Francisco is holding an “Obama-themed” holiday tree-lighting celebration tonight at McLaren Lodge in Golden Gate Park.

61) From Oprah Winfrey:

Earlier on Tuesday, Winfrey told Robin Roberts from “Good Morning America” that she had no regrets about throwing her weight behind Obama.

“I told everybody who knew me if he ever ran, I would put everything I had at stake to support him because there’s a wonderful Bible passage that says ‘What does it do to gain the world and lose your soul?'” she said. “And I knew that in this moment in time, in my lifetime, I would have lost a piece of my soul had I not stood up for him. So I’m happy I happen to be on the right side of history. But if this had not turned out the way we all wanted it to, it was still the right thing for me to do in the moment I did it.”

62) From the Barack Obama Day activist:

Scroggins, who also called himself a community organizer, said although Obama has not yet been in the position to show any presidential leadership skills, just the fact that he was a community organizer and activist qualifies him for a national holiday.

63) From Naples, Italy:

President-elect Barack Obama and his wife Michelle are appearing in Italian nativity scenes this year, alongside the baby Jesus and wise men, according to Naples craftsmen selling figurines in the run-up to Christmas.

64) From the Washington Post, What Would Barack Do?:

“He always has something else to say. . . . Usually, he will say, ‘Yeah, but . . . ‘ When I use Barack Obama as an example, I can see him. He’s quiet. He may sit up a little straighter.

So some parents have leaped from reviewing Obama’s Cabinet choices to summoning him up at the breakfast table, invoking his name, words and accomplishments to motivate a dawdling, recalcitrant child.

You could call it Obama discipline or Obama etiquette, and it goes something like this:

Get up! Do you think Obama would have slept late and not made it to school on time?

Why don’t you guys share? Don’t you think Obama would want you to share?

How much did you read? Obama would have finished the book by now.

Do you think Obama would sneak cigarettes? (Oops.)

65) From The Library of Congress:

Inauguration-week sermons would be videotaped to highlight Barack Obama’s rise to power in an unprecedented quest by the Library of Congress to capture this transfer of power for future generations.

The folks at the library’s American Folklife Center are soliciting churches, synagogues, mosques and others for copies of sermons or passionate speeches that focus on the significance of the Jan. 20 inauguration of Obama as the country’s first black president.

66) From an Obama memorabilia store:

A close up from San Francisco (tipped by hutchrun):

UPDATE: Apparently, these are images of St. Martin de Porres.

67), 68.) and 69) From Fark.com:

Reference for the above is Footprints in the Sand.

This next one is also from Fark.com, but is obviously a mockery reference to Monty Python and the Holy Grail so is not counted as true worship:

70) and 71) From various Obama supporters:

It’s the day after the election. Oprah Winfrey and her guests were quivering with O-gasmic delight.

Actor Forest Whitaker said, “The light of the New Age is here.”

Oprah gal pal Gayle King said, “Not only does he hear us. He feels us…he talks to my soul.”

Whitaker saw King’s goofy comment and raised her one by saying, “It’s okay to love” again thanks to the Obamas.

Nutcase historian Doris Kearns Goodwin piped in by saying it’s “extraordinary” to have a president care about history.

But the award for most o-gasmic comment of the day went to Ali Wentworth, wife of ABC’s George Stephanopoulos, who, with a straight face, claimed: “I took the Metro. And everyone was singing Amazing Grace.”

72) From Amazon.com, Obama’s Little Blue Book:

Printed in a size that easily fits into pocket or purse, this book is an anthology of quotations borrowed from Barack Obama’s speeches and writings. POCKET OBAMA serves as a reminder of the amazing power of oratory and the remarkable ability of this man to move people with his words.

This book is truly a primer for readers who want to examine the substance of his thought and reflect on the next great chapter in the American story. It is an unofficial requirement for every citizen to own, to read, and to carry this book at all times.

73) From the Philadelphia Enquirer, it will only cost you $159 to get this framed up:

The Obamessiah

74) From PBS affiliate KCET:

Obama is the more perfect union. He is a house united. Obama is the New Generation and the hot light of a dawn that goes way beyond clever talk of morning in America.

Quite simply, quite plainly, just by virtue his being, Obama is America. The first true American to lead our nation.

75) From wcbstv.com:

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76) From Cher:

His intelligence is so great and his spirit is so great, I believe he will be able to do as much if not more than anyone could possibly do.

77) From a Borders bookstore:

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78.) From brainwashed children:

Dear Mr. Obama. Please Make it rain candy!

Another child drew Obama as the “new sunrise of America.” One made Earth and labeled it “Obamaland,” and still another created the president’s face as half dark and half light skin tones with the words: “United We Are One.”

79) From a Harris poll:

ROCHESTER, N.Y. — Americans named President Obama as their No. 1 hero, followed by Jesus Christ and Martin Luther King, in a new Harris poll…

80) From Morgan Freeman and James Earl Jones, who recorded a reading of the Bible:

A Jan. 15, 2009, TIME magazine online story discussed how “the voice of God” helped Barack Obama win the presidential election. TIME said that in today’s culture, God’s voice belongs to actor James Earl Jones, and “when God turned into an African American, it became less unthinkable that the president might be African American as well.”

CNSNews.com: It actually compared it with the election of Obama. It said that because people have identified the voice of God with African Americans through your portrayal and Morgan Freeman’s, that helped Obama win the presidency. Do you think that helped?

81) From various Obamessiah worshiping media, a montage:

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82) From a California craft store:

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83) From The White House:

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What’s amusing is that every damned shot that’s ever taken of Dear Leader is classified as a “hero shot.”

84) From artist Michael D’Antuono, a piece entitled ‘The Truth’ to celebrate Obama’s first 100 days as President:

The Obamessiah

According to a statement released about the portrait, “The 30″ x 54″ acrylic painting on canvas depicts President Obama appearing much like Jesus Christ on the Cross: atop his head, a crown of thorns; behind him, the dark veil being lifted (or lowered) on the Presidential Seal. But is he revealing or concealing, and is he being crucified or glorified?”

Even the title of the piece, “The Truth,” suggests a play on biblical themes, as Jesus said in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

It got canceled due to overwhelming public outrage:

Like others in the news who have depicted Obama in Christ-like imagery, D’Antuono originally insisted he wasn’t claiming the man is Messiah, but only inviting “individual interpretations.”

85) From artist Matthew J. Clark:

The Obamessiah

Clark called the marching artwork “A Simulacrum of Hope: Simulation of the Triumphal Entry of the Christ.”

The American Heritage Dictionary defines the word “simulacrum” as “an image or representation; or an unreal or vague semblance,” leaving the viewer to interpret whether Clark considers the parade a celebration of Obama or a mockery of Obama’s more adoring supporters.

86) From Louis Farrakhan:

“You are the instruments that God is going to use to bring about universal change, and that is why Barack has captured the youth. And he has involved young people in a political process that they didn’t care anything about. That’s a sign. When the Messiah speaks, the youth will hear, and the Messiah is absolutely speaking.”

“Brothers and sisters,” Farrakhan said, “Barack Obama to me, is a herald of the Messiah. Barack Obama is like the trumpet that alerts you something new, something better is on the way.”

Farrakhan points out that the man Nation of Islam followers refer to as “the Savior,” Fard Muhammad, had a black father and a white mother, just as Obama did.

“A black man with a white mother became a savior to us,” he said. “A black man with a white mother could turn out to be one who can lift America from her fall.

“Would God allow Barack to be president of a country that has been so racist, so evil in its treatment of Hispanics, native Americans, blacks?” he asked. “Would God do something like that? Yeah. Of course he would. That’s to show you that the stone that the builders rejected has become the headstone of the corner. This is a sign to you. It’s the time of our rise. It’s the time that we should take our place. The future is all about you.”

87) From Newsweek’s Evan Thomas (video at this link):

“I mean in a way Obama’s standing above the country, above — above the world, he’s sort of God.

88.) From Jennifer Weiss of the San Francisco Chronicle:

But we can only hope that fathers and spouses everywhere will be thinking “What Would Obama Do?” as they navigate through the murky waters of parenthood and family life.

89) From Newsweek, Obama is more Catholic than the Pope:

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90) From a gift shop:

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91) From Rolling Stones again:

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92) From Obama himself:

“We are God’s partners in matters of life and death”

93) From Obama worshippers, a video titled Barack Obama – “Our Personal Jesus”.

94) From authors of a children’s book:

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Excerpt via Investors.com:

“One morning, he slipped on the name he’d been born with. The name of his father, Barack. For the first time in his life, he wore it proudly — like a coat of many colors,”

95) From the Obama White House blog:

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96) From B. Bernice Young Elementary School composed by Charisse Carney-Nunes (author of the children’s book ‘I Am Barack Obama’):

Mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack Hussein Obama
He said take a stand, make sure everyone gets a chance
Mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack Hussein Obama
He said red, yellow, black and white, all are equal in his sight
Mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack Hussein Obama
Yeah! Barack Hussein Obama

The reference: Deifying him with creepy spiritual references (“red, yellow, black and white, all are equal in his sight” is cribbed from the famous hymn “Jesus Loves the Little Children;”)

97) From Gamaliel International Leadership Assembly, community organizers pray to the Obamessiah:

“Hear our cry, Obama.” “Deliver us, Obama.”

98.) From Russell Simmonsat The Huffington Post:

The president’s honest attempt to promote world peace through the same methods taught by Jesus Christ are met with contempt by a country whose collective consciousness is extraordinarily fearful and at times, sacrilegious.

If we allow leaders of a political party that only know one word, and that is “no,” to work against the best interests of our country, we will not only be found guilty of charge four, we will be sentenced by God to self-destruction.

In one of the most telling moments of the past nine months, the skepticism that the President was met with after his compassionate speech in Cairo was shocking. He conceded nothing in that speech but love. This is the route that is prescribed to us by all of the great prophets in the Bible, Qur’an and the Torah.

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99) From Demi Moore, Ashton Kutcher and other celebrities, ‘I Pledge':

“I Pledge To Be A Servant To Barack Obama”.

100) From musician Sting:

Sting isn’t a religious man, but he says President Barack Obama might be a divine answer to the world’s problems.

“In many ways, he’s sent from God,” he joked in an interview, “because the world’s a mess.”

101) From Daily Kos:

It is known in many esotericists’ circles, that before the Christ will reappear, there must be a measure of Peace in the world! President Obama is helping to restore that peace.

102) From Politiken.dk:

EDITORIAL: Obama greater than Jesus
The U.S. president – the practical saviour of our times

For some time now, comparisons between the two have been a tool of cynical opinion that quickly became fatigued of the rapture that Obama instilled prior to and after the presidential election last year.

From the start, Obama’s critics have claimed that his supporters have idolised him as a saviour, thus attempting to dismantle the concrete hope that Obama has represented for most Americans.

The idea was naturally that the comparison between Jesus and Obama – which is something that the critics developed themselves – would be comical, blasphemous, or both.

If such a comparison were to be made, it would, of course, inevitably be to Obama’s advantage.

103) From Chicago Sun-Times:

Also, we just like to say his name. We are considering taking it as a mantra.

104) From Virginia Beach Obama rally:

Those faces. It was raw, naked, complete, worship, love, heart-whole passionate stunned and almost unbelieving but desperately wanting to believe him adoration. He is their Messiah. It’s a cult.

105) From Obama supporters:

Indeed, participants in the Saturday morning precinct-captain training were already adept at telling their Obama-conversion stories.

106) From Chicago Tribune:

Many have found a spiritual cause in Obama. In their view, he is a unifying figure who will further King’s dream by uniting the world and restoring economic security during a time of financial distress

107) From The New York Times:

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108.) From Elle associate publisher Samantha Fennell:

I have thrown myself into a new world—one in which fluffy chatter and frivolous praise are replaced by a get-to-the-point directness and disciple-like devotion. It’s intense and intoxicating… I was on my feet as Senator Obama entered the room. Fate had blessed me in this moment… Then, in a moment of divine intervention, he saw me…

108.) (Due to #66 not being counted) From an AFL-CIO official:

Sometimes you have to remind people that, `Hey, Jesus Christ couldn’t do anything more than President Obama has on the agenda we supported two years ago without the United States Senate having the votes for cloture to overcome a filibuster…

109) And now his worshipers have extended him to other religions! From Newsweek:

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110) From Reuters:

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111) From Very Demotivational:

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112) Uttered by Howard Fineman:

By calmly and meticulously overseeing the successful targeting of Osama bin Laden, President Barack Obama just proved himself — vividly, in almost Biblical terms — to be an effective commander-in-chief of the armed forces of the United States

113) Another:

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114) From NPR:

The realities of governing as opposed to the unrealities of presidential campaigns may have made President Obama a much more human figure compared with the almost messiah-like status he had in the eyes of many supporters in 2008. But that doesn’t mean there still isn’t the occasional moment reminiscent of a Bible story.

115) From Sheila Jackson Lee:

Well, I will say this. First of all, you’re absolutely right. There were those who cheered when Jesus was crucified, and we have found that despicable from the beginning of history to this time.

116) From Michelle Obama:

“I am going to be working so hard. We have an amazing story to tell. This president has brought us out of the dark and into the light.”

117) From Obama himself:

You, all of you who are here tonight, all who put so much heart and soul and work into this campaign, you can be the new majority who can lead this nation out of a long political darkness.

It was whispered by slaves and abolitionists as they blazed a trail towards freedom through the darkest of nights: Yes, we can.

118.) From a rabbi at Inauguration Day, St. John’s Church:

A beam of morning light shown [sic] through the stained-glass windows and illuminated the president-elect’s face. Several of the clergy and choir on the altar who also saw it marveled afterward about the presence of the Divine.

119) From Reuters:

The Obamessiah

120) From Obama himself:

When asked in an interview what sin is, Obama defined it as “Being out of alignment with my values.”

121) Via Breitbart.com:

The Obamessiah

122) By Newsweek:

The Obamessiah

123) By The White House:

The Obamessiah

124) In Berkeley:

The Obamessiah

125) From Spike Lee:

He was a savior, black Jesus

126) Via Betsy’s Page via AoSHQ, from Slate’s coverage of DNC 2012 (more thoughts here:

The Obamessiah

127) From a Doctor of, uh, Physical Education:

Listening, cautiously, I learned that Jesus walked the earth to create a more civilized society, Martin (Luther King) walked the earth to create a more justified society, but, Apostle Barack, the name he was called in my dreams, would walk the earth to create a more equalized society, for the middle class and working poor. Apostle Barack, the next young leader with a new cause, had been taken to the mountaintop and allowed to see over the other side. He had the answers to unlock the kingdom of “heaven here on earth” for his followers.

128.) From Naples, Italy:

The Obamessiah

after Obama’s victory, we have made a new figurine of Obama and will put him in our ideal Nativity scene

129) From Jamie Foxx:

“It’s like church over here. It’s like church in here. First of all, give an honor to God and our lord and savior Barack Obama. Barack Obama.”

130) From Newsweek:

The Obamessiah

131) From The Economist tipped bu Hutchrun:

The Obamessiah

132) From Barbara Walters who admits:

We thought that he was going to be – I shouldn’t say this at Christmastime, but – the next messiah

133) In San Francisco, an “Obama-themed” holiday tree-lighting celebration:

The Obamessiah

134) By Florida A&M University professor Barbara Thompson:

The Obamessiah

The Gospel According to Apostle Barack – In Search of a More Perfect Political Union as Heaven Here on Earth

After her son’s healing, she had a dream when the spirit of God spoke to her and told her to ‘go on a journey with apostle Barack.’ …

Apostle, a leader with a new cause, is how Thompson defines Obama.

“He walks the earth for a more equalized, more middle class and working poor society,” she said. She compared apostle Barack to apostles like Jesus and Martin Luther King Jr.

…it is the intent of the author to utilize the materials contained in the speeches as a means of teaching Apostle Barack’s followers about him and guiding them towards understanding ‘politics as religion’ and ‘religion as politics.’ The manuscript would also serve as a guide for his followers – to unlock the answers – to creating and living in the reality of a middle class lifestyle that was so economically and ethically sound that it appeared to be ‘heaven here on earth.

—————————-

—————————–

Alternatively, Obama could be that other guy…

From Obama’s mentor, Communist Saul Alinsky’s infamous Rules for Radicals:

The Obamessiah

Now I get why his most unrestrained media sycophants call Obama a “Lightworker.”

From Obama’s very own Illinois, the winning lottery ticket on the day after Obama won the Election:

The Obamessiah

And this via Moonbattery, :

——————————

See also What Kind of Christian is Obama?.

Hahaha! Via Moonbattery, by Sad Hill News:

Obama Liberal Messiah

Via Moonbattery:

Obama Liberal Messiah God No Birth Cert

Hahaha! See his ‘real’ birth cert at here.

Obama Liberal Messiah God cartoon

Above illustration from Diversity Lane.

Following from Day by Day, found at collection of 60+ cartoons in Obamedia Loves Obama… And I Mean Red Hot, Steaming Wet Lurve!!!:

Obama Liberal Messiah God cartoon

Obama Liberal Messiah God cartoon

Following from Day by Day:

Obamedia

From an anti-Obama online store, says it all:

Atheists Pretending to be Christians For Obama

Obamessiah

Obamessiah

Obamessiah

Obamessiah

Obamessiah

Obamessiah


Tags: , , , , , ,

385 Responses to “The Obamessiah (134 Adulations)”

  1. Patricia D Billings Says:

    Sorry if anyone looks at Barak Obama as the Messiah they are in for a rude awakening!!! He has definately made history and am glad he got elected, but he is not the Messiah! Jesus Christ is the Messsiah, anyone that thinks that He isn’t is a fool!!

    As for Jessie Jacksons comment about adding another chapter in the Bible about Barak Obama , I think he has lost his mind like he did when he was counseling Bill & Hillary during their crisis in the Whote House, he himself had a woman pregnant and took money from Rainbow Coalation to buy her a home in Southern Californis! Please Jessie you know God Said nothing shall be added or taken away from the Bible! What are you thinking?

  2. Carol Says:

    This is really scary. You are a bunch of idiots. The Bible says that in the last day, people would do things like this. That the person would come into power and people would look at him like he is the Messiah. You are doing something very dangerous in talking about Barack HUSSEIN this way.

  3. Scott Thong Says:

    Carol, please note: As the opening sentence of my blog post should make clear, I am mocking the liberals who look at Obama like he’s the Messiah.

    To me, declaring anyone but Jesus Christ as the Messiah is outright blasphemy and idolatry.

  4. Change Says:

    Obama Fools Us
    Whole word will pay for America`s electoral mistake

    “Have locked myself in my room because the place is full of little idiots — who cannot spell Barack Obama’s name and could not name one of his foreign or domestic policies — running around screaming obscenities about George Bush, conservatives and how Sarah Palin is a bitch. I love democracy!”

    Even so, the people spoke. A victory for the hysterical Oprah Winfrey, the mad racist preacher Jeremiah Wright, the mainstream media who abandoned any sense of objectivity long ago, Europeans who despise America largely because they depend on her, comics who claim to be dangerous and fearless but would not dare attack genuinely powerful special interest groups. A victory for Obama-worshippers everywhere.

    A victory for the cult of the cult. A man who has done little with his life but has written about his achievements as if he had found the cure for cancer in between winning a marathon and building a nuclear reactor with his teeth. Victory for style over substance, hyperbole over history, rabble-raising over reality.

    A victory for Hollywood, the most dysfunctional community in the world. Victory for Streisand, Spielberg, Soros and Sarandon.

    Victory for those who prefer welfare to will and interference to independence. For those who settle for group think and herd mentality rather than those who fight for individual initiative and the right to be out of step with meagre political fashion.

    http://www.edmontonsun.com/Comment/2008/11/08/7345431-sun.html

  5. Martin Cosentino Says:

    I address this to all of you who lose your faith in the REAL Messiah everytime a pretty face comes along. Simply remember what Jesus said about this very thing – ” Call NO man on earth your father (read:Obama), for your true father is in heaven.” Lets grab a hold of ourselves here.
    This is an historic event- and I don’t have to remind MOST of you out there that George W. Bush had a LOT to do with getting Barack Obama-or any DEMOCRAT who was running- elected to the presidency. The disgust and despair that has spilled over in this nation, at least for the past four years, was enough to get even Ralph Nader elected president, had he been nominated at the Dem’s convention. All of this apocalyptic thinking is COMMON when such a sweeping change is about to occur. Barack said the right things because he KNOWS what shape this country is in, and his words made harp strings vibrate in every GOOD persons heart. There was absolutely NO WAY a Republican was going to win this election-not after the trail of blood and looting left by Bush and his thieves.

    Barack is a mirror for all the frustrated dreams of the world
    and I mean in a purely material and worldly sense. When a black man can become President of the United States, then
    ALL of the countries of the world are put on HIGH notice-
    and each dreamer in his small ‘forgotten’ corner of the world
    becomes a Barack (‘blessed’) for his people.

    Isn’t that what Jesus of Nazareth has been doing for the whole human race for the past 2,000 years?

  6. Poland Says:

    To those who think Barack Obama is the Messiah, I’d like to know what prophecy did he fulfilled in the Scripture? Because the Second Coming of Christ already happened, when the Fig Tree Israel already became a nation again in 1948 as prophecied in the Bible. So any believer of Barack Obama being the Messiah? Then prove it to the Scripture.

    John 5:39
    39You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

  7. hutchrun Says:

    “..Fig Tree Israel already became a nation again in 1948..”

    and i think there`s more to that, that the generation that sees the fig tree blossom will see the end of the world (words to that effect at least).
    Obama has sent Robert Malley (whom he earlier threw under the bus) into the mid-east:

    WASHINGTON [MENL] — Presidential-elect Barack Obama has promised to improve U.S. relations with Egypt and Syria. Aides said Obama had sent senior foreign policy adviser Robert Malley to Egypt and Syria over the last few weeks to outline the Democratic candidate’s policy on the Middle East. The aides said Malley, who served in the administration of President Bill Clinton, relayed a pledge from Obama that the United States would seek to enhance relations with Cairo as well as reconcile with Damascus. “The tenor of the messages was that the Obama administration would take into greater account Egyptian and Syrian interests,” an aide said.

    FLASHBACK! May 10, 2008
    Barack Obama sacks adviser over talks with Hamas
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3897414.ece

    Aides to Malley also said that Obama told Mubarak that the United States would maintain military and civilian aid and sell advanced F-16 aircraft to Cairo.
    Egypt has not ordered F-16s in nearly a decade.

  8. hutchrun Says:

    “..Fig Tree Israel already became a nation again in 1948..” – Poland

    and i think there`s more to that, that the generation that sees the fig tree blossom will see the end of the world (words to that effect at least).
    Obama has sent Robert Malley (whom he earlier threw under the bus) into the mid-east:

    WASHINGTON [MENL] — Presidential-elect Barack Obama has promised to improve U.S. relations with Egypt and Syria. Aides said Obama had sent senior foreign policy adviser Robert Malley to Egypt and Syria over the last few weeks to outline the Democratic candidate’s policy on the Middle East. The aides said Malley, who served in the administration of President Bill Clinton, relayed a pledge from Obama that the United States would seek to enhance relations with Cairo as well as reconcile with Damascus. “The tenor of the messages was that the Obama administration would take into greater account Egyptian and Syrian interests,” an aide said.

    FLASHBACK! May 10, 2008
    Barack Obama sacks adviser over talks with Hamas
    timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3897414.ece

    Aides to Malley also said that Obama told Mubarak that the United States would maintain military and civilian aid and sell advanced F-16 aircraft to Cairo.
    Egypt has not ordered F-16s in nearly a decade.

  9. hutchrun Says:

    CRESCENT ON THE WHITE HOUSE

    The Nation of Islam Online Ministry
    Join us every Sunday morning at 10:00am Central Time!
    America’s New Beginning; President-Elect Barack Obama
    Address by the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan

    http://www.noi.org/webcast/

  10. hutchrun Says:

    CRESCENT ON THE WHITE HOUSE

    The Nation of Islam Online Ministry
    Join us every Sunday morning at 10:00am Central Time!
    America’s New Beginning; President-Elect Barack Obama
    Address by the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan

    http://www.noi.org/webcast/

  11. Poland Says:

    hutchrun said “and i think there`s more to that, that the generation that sees the fig tree blossom will see the end of the world (words to that effect at least).”

    hutchrun, what do “you think” there’s more about the Fig Tree? Can you show me through the Scripture? Thanks.

    Like I said in my last post, we know that Jesus Christ is the Messiah because of the Scripture testified about Him. The New Testament wasn’t written by the Apostles yet 2000 years ago but they still believe in Jesus Christ. Unfortunately for the Jews/Pharisees, they didn’t because they didn’t knew the true prophecy about the Coming of the Messiah.

    John 5:46-47
    46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

    So if really Barack Obama is the Messiah, he must prove it through the Scripture. Otherwise he’s just another false Christ. Only through the Scripture we can learn God’s administration.

  12. hutchrun Says:

    I’ve heard it all (1 hour, 38 minutes) and it’s long enough to put someone to sleep. The AP and AFP news services have summarized it, but here are the best parts that they have missed: …

    52 MINUTES: Farrakhan discusses Iran and Israel. He does not believe that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon and he says that it would be stupid for Iran to use one against Israel. Farrakhan is fearful that Israel will pre-emptively attack Iran and drag the United States and Brother Barack into a war. …

    103 MINUTES: “I don’t think that I am irrelevant.” …

    123 MINUTES: Farrakhan doesn’t believe it’s wise for every black person to just get a $20,000 reparations check. He instead wants control of knowledge and he wants land. (Knowledge and land? What’s he hinting at? Tuition-free college based solely on skin color? Fannie Mae giveaways of entire homes? –B.P.)

  13. hutchrun Says:

    Can you show me through the Scripture? – Poland

    I think my comment is based on someone asking Jesus when the world would end, and he replied that only G_d knew but the generation that saw the fig tree blosom ( some interpret it as Israel in `48) would live to see the end. A generation being around 50-70 years does fit in with current schedule – so i`ve been told.

    Buraq Obama could be the catalyst to:
    “The swine will be killed and the cross broken. People will revert to Islam.”

    http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/jesus.html

  14. hutchrun Says:

    O the fig tree it probably was this one:
    Matthew 24:34 (NKJV) “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.”

    Interesting dissertation here:
    http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/mat08.html

  15. simon thong Says:

    The definition of a generation is 30 years, Hutchrun. Can stretch it to 40. 50-70 years would be a greater stretch, but if we are talking about prophecy, it is not a stretch too far.

  16. CINDY Says:

    YOU ALL ARE IDIOTS!!!!!! NO ONE WILL CHANGE THE WORLD, IT’S MEANT TO BE THIS AWAY AND WILL GET WORST, UNTILL THE DAY OUR HEAVENLY FATHER RETURNS TO CORRECT AND CLEAN UP ALL OUR MESSES. AS FOR ALL YOU IDIOTS WHO ARE CALLING OBAMA THE MESSIAH, ” HEAVENLY FATHER HAVE MERCY ON YOU” WHEN YOU HAVE TO ANSWER TO GOD. ALL I CAN SAY IS
    OBAMA IS THE ANTI-CHRIST OR WAS SENT HERE AS A TEST FROM GOD TO SEE WHO WOULD FOLLOW OBAMA OR WHO WOULD STAY WITH HIM. MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOU ALL! ALSO MAY HE HAVE MERCY ON THE REST OF US AND PROTECT US FROM ALL THE BAD THINGS AHEAD OF US! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  17. hutchrun Says:

    Simon,
    You could be right.
    OTOH average life span these days is of course higher than days of yore. Those born in `48 would be 60 now, and that`s not exactly old.

  18. hutchrun Says:

    And in a lighter vein following up on cindy`s comment, the Mayan calendar has the end date at Dec. 24, 2012.

    And here is something by Amir Taheri that appeared in Forbes magazine:

    Is Barack Obama the “promised warrior” coming to help the
    Hidden Imam of Shiite Muslims conquer the world?

    The question has made the rounds in Iran since last month,
    when a pro-government Web site published a Hadith (or
    tradition) from a Shiite text of the 17th century. The
    tradition comes from Bahar al-Anvar (meaning Oceans of
    Light) by Mullah Majlisi, a magnum opus in 132 volumes and
    the basis of modern Shiite Islam.

    According to the tradition, Imam Ali Ibn Abi-Talib (the
    prophet’s cousin and son-in-law) prophesied that at the End
    of Times and just before the return of the Mahdi, the
    Ultimate Saviour, a “tall black man will assume the reins
    of government in the West.” Commanding “the strongest army
    on earth,” the new ruler in the West will carry “a clear
    sign” from the third imam, whose name was Hussein Ibn Ali.
    The tradition concludes: “Shiites should have no doubt that
    he is with us.”

    In a curious coincidence Obama’s first and second names–
    Barack Hussein–mean “the blessing of Hussein” in Arabic
    and Persian. His family name, Obama, written in the Persian
    alphabet, reads O Ba Ma, which means “he is with us,” the
    magic formula in Majlisi’s tradition.

    Mystical reasons aside, the Khomeinist establishment sees
    Obama’s rise as another sign of the West’s decline and the
    triumph of Islam.

  19. Martin Cosentino Says:

    There will be no triumph of Islam.
    Neither in the West, or in the world.

    Neither will Christendom see any further expansion into
    other cultures. We are approaching the balance of history.

    The world and all of its cultures represent the many unfulfilled prophecies, dreams and hopes of previous societies. Although we carry these dreams and hopes within our DNA, the problems present today occupy the majority of our energy and work. This has to do with poverty, ignorance, sharing the earth’s resources with justice, ceasing the violent wars that kill the innocent, weeding out the greed and corruption that oppresses societies throughout the planet. This is where Obama will
    put his energy and the resources and power of his office.

    Both the Christian and Islamic civilizations will be responsible
    to accomplish this task, with peace, and in front of G-d(PBUH). The ‘strongest army on the earth’ pales in comparison to the ‘strongest army in heaven.’

    Obama is not the “hidden warrior,” he is not the Messiah, or the Mahdi. He is NONE of these things. What he has awakened in the psyche of the world is the eternal call to love in peace and joy, and for this alone he will help to accomplish a great golden age FOR THE WORLD, and not
    just for the United States. That is why the leaders of the world have applauded his election, because he will be a partner, and not a tyrant, a counselor and not a thief, a true brother who has no pedigree, a “mutt” in his own words, who shares the humble beginnings of 95% of the people in the world. He is truly named, Buraq/Barack – as a blessing from G-d, doing the work of love that unite the world. Peace be upon him.

  20. Obama blessings Says:

    O BA MA PBUH
    http://www.republicworldnews.com/images/prayers_finalmap_smaller.JPG

  21. Because Presidents Day Just Won’t Do: Plans Are Being Made To Promote a National Holiday For Barack Obama | Right Voices Says:

    [...] The Obamessiah « BUUUUURRRRNING HOT [...]

  22. WigWag Says:

    Martin Consentino,

    Will you take the initiative to get the UN and OIC to investigate the genocide of blacks (esp. muslims) in the US of A:

    “I’m sure that many of our people have unfortunately lost their lives because of the absolute hatred that is manifested now that one of our own has risen to such a high office,” he told the crowd at the national headquarters of the Nation of Islam.

    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=081109231237.cdsljf58&show_article=1

  23. Alhabshi Says:

    OSAMA bin Laden is planning an attack against the United States that will “outdo by far” September 11, an Arab newspaper in London has reported.

    And according to a former senior Yemeni al-Qaeda operative, the terrorist organisation has entered a “positive phase”, reinforcing specific training camps around the world that will lead the next “wave of action” against the West.

    The warning, on the front page of an Arabic newspaper published in London, Al-Quds Al-Arabi – and widely reported in the major Italian papers – quotes a person described as being “very close to al-Qaeda” in Yemen.

    The paper is edited by Abdel al-Bari Atwan, who is said to be the last journalist to interview Osama bin Laden in 1996. According to the report, bin Laden is himself closely following preparations for an attack against the US and aims to “change the face of world politics and economics”. The operative is quoted as saying that “this will be shown by the fact that we now control a major part of the south of Somalia”.

    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………
    And who have the American people picked to be the one to defend this country?
    A community organizer.
    Wonderful!

  24. curious Says:

    To those who live and practice Christianity in Malaysia — do you feel free to do so w/out suppression from the ruling gov’t? I have only read that the country’s constitution allows the practice of faiths different than Islam. Do you believe and experience this?
    (I hope so.)

  25. It`s On Says:

    On Sunday morning, amidst worshiping congregants and following unifying prayers that our President-elect be granted wisdom as he prepares to lead our nation through difficult global, social and economic challenges, the Michigan left declared open war on peaceful church goers.

    They did it with banners, chants, blasphemy, by storming the pulpit, by vandalizing the church facility, by potentially defiling the building with lude, public, sex acts and by intentionally forcing physical confrontations with worshipers.

    This didn’t take place in some dystopian, post modern work of fiction and it didn’t take place in San Francisco or Berkley. This was the scene at a Bible believing church in Lansing, Michigan.

    http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2008/11/radical-liberal-group-storms-christian-church-service-attacks-worshipers.html

  26. Scott Thong Says:

    curious,

    We are free to worship in our respective religious buildings. We are free to choose whatever religion we want to follow.

    However…

    1) You cannot preach other religions to Muslims, let alone try to convert them.
    2) You must submit a request to the local authorities to build or refurbish your religious building, or to convert ordinary land to religious use land. This can take DECADES.
    3) No Muslim may convert out of Islam, even if they were born into Islam and never chose for themselves. Those who try are subject to strict laws.
    4) Only a Muslim can marry a Muslim. If a non-Muslim wants to marry a Muslim, the non-Muslim must convert to Islam – the other way round is not allowed.

    There are various other little quibbles that must be watched out for as well. But at least non-Muslims are not threatened with death simply for being of a different religion.

  27. Kathy Says:

    I’m shocked to see how many pathetic empty lives there are in this country, that need to grasp at the concept of a mere man being the Messiah. This is downright creepy.

  28. Jamie Says:

    Martin Consention sounds rreally like a New Ager :/

  29. Poland Says:

    Kathy said “I’m shocked to see how many pathetic empty lives there are in this country, that need to grasp at the concept of a mere man being the Messiah. This is downright creepy.”

    Kathy, I live in US and my life is not pathetic here. Well what can I do to haters like you.

    But in regards to Barack Obama being the Messiah, he has to prove it to the Scripture. Otherwise he’s just another false Christ. But don’t say that the Messiah cannot come in human flesh. He did it already 2000 years ago. His name is Jesus Christ.

  30. aredvoice Says:

    I agree with you – Obama has been praised and “worshipped” by the libs continually -the hero/messiah worship is quite disturbing. But I’ve been wondering – Why do libs view Obama as a Messiah or someone greater than the rest of us? Do you have thoughts about this?

    I found an interesting article on one of the reasons for this at: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/obama_as_liberal_messiah.html

    The article states: “It somehow comes as no surprise that American liberals have been trying to undo this innovation for much of the past century. To a convinced liberal, a leader is in no way limited to anything as mundane as running a country. A leader is a transcendent being, someone more than human, someone with a touch of the divine. Leaders don’t handle tasks, they lead movements, they embody the spirit of the age. They transform. Leaders, to put it simply, are führers. This explains why liberals are so attracted to tyrants on the international scene. Stalin is the classic historical example (for a dose of political hagiography at its most nauseating, see the film Mission to Moscow) though we’ve witnessed the same type of thing more recently involving Castro and Hugo Chavez. The search for this precise type of idol explains the visits to Chavez by the Sean Penns and Naomi Campbells. The fact that they’ve settled for Chavez, who on his best day reminds me of nothing more than a crazier Manuel Noriega, shows how pathological this urge can be. ….”

    That seems to me a good reason why this got so out of control with the libs – they are looking for some divine leader not a mere human to lead this country… I was curious what your thought were on this…

    Thanks for all your research in putting this post together – it really is unreal and disturbing…

  31. Martin Cosentino Says:

    Now that the ‘obamessiah’ will become President of these United States in just 6 weeks, things will begin to settle into a more practical, pragmatic approach, especially since the country is in a recession.

    A little of the divine shine has already worn off and a more realistic attitude toward the ‘realpolitik’ is sinking in. Humans are terribly adaptive creatures, moving from the wormlike crawl to the divinelike flight. We need both of these actions to insure our ubiquitous state, being earth and spirit simultaneously is both fulfilling and exciting. That is why we adore God and vilify those who represent evil – we must create our own highly evolved state to remove us from the worm.

    Barack Obama has made us aware of his possibility – in ourselves. After W, anything would have been acceptable, but we are now triply blessed by Barack.

    Let us hope that his Obergruppenfuehrer Chief of Staff will not burst the bubble too soon. My choice he is NOT.

  32. Richard Says:

    Mr. Thong, your commentary on the Obamessiah is wonderful. I am surprised, though, that many of the posters on this blog seem to have completely missed the satirical nature of your piece. Many of the responses seem to come from people who have interpreted your commentary to mean that YOU believe Obama to be the Messiah, and there are even a few of the responders who appear to believe that Obama actually IS the Messiah! Wow…. In any case, I’m withholding my conclusion on this matter until after Inauguration Day. I could probably be convinced that he is the Messiah but I’m a skeptic by nature so I’ll probably need to see a few loaves and fishes before I will relent.

  33. Richard Says:

    I would also say that the line of thought that believes that he is the Mahdi is very intriguing!

  34. La Transición y la Obamanía religiosa « Sarah Palin en Español Says:

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  35. Kristy Says:

    So the messiah believes in late term abortions? To the left that is one fo the traits of Godliness I suppose.

  36. Rob Says:

    Why do you think people are ‘deifying’ Obama? Maybe because those who have had to deal with being labelled as Godless, amoral, anarchic ‘liberals’ realise that the Christian right and their so-called God is a poor alternative for change and progress.

  37. Scott Thong Says:

    Why do I think people are ‘deifying’ him? Have you even looked at the photos and read the quotes that form the entirety of this post?

    And exactly what alternative for ‘change’ and ‘progress’ is the Neo Liberalist Messiah bringing? The ‘change’ of Clinton’s administration team taken wholesale? The ‘progress’ of the same old Chicago politics of corruption and bribery?

  38. CLARE Says:

    Obama arises from the sewers of Chicago’s political corruption. He possesses a glib tongue, a questionable birth certificate, and more than a trace of narcissisim…what’s not to like or believe?

  39. Scott Thong Says:

    But he does haff burth sert. Here is itz.

  40. Stephen Hand Says:

    Barack the Messiah? My Foot! Says this Hand! Glad to see this, Chris.

  41. Lisa Charity Says:

    I do believe that Obamanation = Abomination
    So far he DEMONstrates all the attributes of the anti-christ of the book of Revelations…..God help us!

  42. Mauricio Villablanca Says:

    I kinda feel sorry for all those poor zaps who really think this guy is about change. He is not in office yet and his skeletons are coming out of the closet already.

    Dirty Chicago Politics: a change we definitely do not believe in.

  43. wits0 Says:

    Mauricio, 52 % of the US voters who put him there will soon enough discover various causes to regret their choice and foolishness.

  44. Toma de posesión: links (II)—work in progress Says:

    [...] 6. Las imágenes que presentan a Obama bajo la imagen de un Mesías: http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/the-obamessiah/ [...]

  45. La Transición y la Obamanía religiosa « Sarah Palin en Español Says:

    [...] y los artistas devotos del nuevo líder crearon. Para ello, les remito a la magnífica entrada de Scott Thong en su blog, donde recopila imágenes tan atroces como [...]

  46. ruth Says:

    Obama is going to change them allright. Just like the serpent changed Adam and Eve..He will change them as children of the light to children of the night.by words, just words, but all lies designed to make them forfeit the real truth…

  47. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Undirect attempt to portray a man larger than life. Complete nonesense, outrageous ! In fact the Messiah himself was made ‘god’ by by the same manner. Can a ‘god’ be killed by men (Jews). (Can man kills God?) Did he create his mother Mary ? God was circumcised (when he was 8 days old, he was circumcised and name Jesus by the angel..” (BIble). Blasphemous ! No wonder satan made it to our intiution, everything is ‘god'; anything can be god. Even frogs or turtles can be ‘god’ by pagan untinkible believers. Sincerely.. I just want to give ‘a wake up call’ to our Christians brothers and sisters.. not to provoke you all. Pls ponder honestly. We can believe (or say) anything we want, but the question is that.. is true or not ??

  48. ruth Says:

    Obama is the false messiah that comes to lead the tares into the fire..He does not and will not fool the elect..He will however fool the rest of the world..and has done so…
    He is a liar and a killer (abortion)…Jesus said satan is a liar and a killer..

  49. Scott Thong Says:

    In fact the Messiah himself was made ‘god’ by by the same manner. Can a ‘god’ be killed by men (Jews). (Can man kills God?) Did he create his mother Mary ? God was circumcised (when he was 8 days old, he was circumcised and name Jesus by the angel..” (BIble). Blasphemous !

    Sincerely.. I just want to give ‘a wake up call’ to our Christians brothers and sisters.. not to provoke you all. Pls ponder honestly. We can believe (or say) anything we want, but the question is that.. is true or not ??

    – Nasaei Ahmad

    Nasaei, Christians believe that the Bible contains the truth from God. So whatever it tells us, we believe as true.

    It is the same for Muslims, isn’t it? You believe the Koran is the truth from Allah, so you believe whatever it tells you as true – whether it is how many days it took to create the world, or the story of Nuh and the flood.

    No matter how unusual the claim, if the Koran says it is true, then it must be true, correct? Who cares what the pagans, unbelievers and atheists say – Muslims still hold that the Koran is truth!

    This is the same for Christians and the Bible.

    So the Bible tells Christians that Jesus is worshiped as God, and that is why we believe that Jesus is God.

    On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. – Matthew 2:11

    Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” – Matthew 14:33

    Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. – Matthew 28:9

    When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. – Matthew 28:17

    Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. – Luke 24:52

    Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him – John 9:38

    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” – John 20:28

    “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.” – John 14:9

    “I and the Father are one.” – John 10:30

    “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” – Zechariah 12:10, God says that God will be crucified (I, me) but at the same time is another person (he)

    And Jesus Himself testifies the same thing that the Koran says:

    ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. – Mark 12:29

    Therefore, if Jesus is worshiped but there is only ONE God, then this means that Jesus is the same as that one God.

    Jesus is God who voluntarily put Himself into the form of a human being. Why is this considered impossible? God can do anything, fot that is God’s right.

  50. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Dear Brother Thong,

    I’m sorry if my comments in this friendly blog somehow offended you. It is not my intention to hurt the feeling of our Christian friends or of any faiths. I have many Christian friends actually. And I agree with you, and you are absolutely right, we accept the scripture as it is even though for an atheist, perhaps many of the statements in the holy books (Torah, Bible or Quran) are unacceptable to a sober mind (like for example, God made the universe in six days; one day in the hereafter equals to 1,000 years (of Quran). For your information, no Muslim is “Muslim” if he or she doesn’t believe in Jesus. But we do not believe Jesus as God; we do nor believe God “beggoten” a Son; we cannot believe Jews (men) capable of killing God etc. It is unacceptable. And don’t forget, we believe that Zabur, Torah, Bible were all from the same source (Allah, or God Almighty). There is a verse in the Quran whichs says (more or less transliteration) that, irresposible hands (may be Paul, I don’t know) who corrupted, interpolated the Bible. Unfortunately, the original Bible which was in Hebrew (or Aramaic?) was lost forever. Furthermore, the existing Bible versions – King James, International Version aand Standard Revised Version we unidentical to each other as we know. So the status of the Bible, its authenticity, veracity or reliability is highly contested (questioned). It seems to me it is fallible and cannot withstand the test of credibility. I am sorry again – we have to talk straight forward here. The world knows this fact, therefore to my mind it cannot be like sweeping dirts or rubbish under the carpet. Many sharp criticisms came not from Muslims but from the West and Christian themselves. If you have time, pls. watch Youtube soon. Type “misquoting Jesus” by Prof. Bart Ehrman on the internet, you’ll get some “story” academically. Bart Erhman is not a man it the street like me, but a religious scholar who taught religious studies at a famous university in Chapel Hill (South Carolina?) USA. Many, many positive and constructive critics actually about the “fallibility” of the Bible. So worth “pondering”. We can exchange views in a friendly fashion we free. But I am only orang kampung biasa, tak kisah, asalkan kita dapat emengenepikan sentimens, prejudice atau buruk sangka the everyones could discuss any “taboos” thing, anytime. My email is: nasaei123@yahoo.com. Try to listen thet given comment by Dr. Bart Ehrman, and many,many other constructive criticsms.

    Thanks.

    Nasaei Ahmad.

  51. Scott Thong Says:

    Nasaei, you seem to know quite a bit… However, I have come across the things you are talking about before, and some of what you say is inaccurate. I have been reading and studying criticisms of the Bible for years, as well as the counter arguments.

    So allow me to explain…

    ————————————-

    But we do not believe Jesus as God; we do nor believe God “beggoten” a Son;

    It is perfectly understandable that you do not believe that Jesus is God; indeed, some so-called ‘Christian’ groups also claim that Jesus is not God.

    On the ‘begotten’ issue found in John 3:16, it is a relic of the King James translation.

    The New International Version renders it as ‘one and only’, meaning that Jesus is God’s ‘one and only son’. This translation is based on the implied meaning of the Greek (the Gospels were written in Greek), that Jesus is unique in His position as God’s son.

    True Christians view as blasphemy and get very upset when anybody suggests that God had sex with Mary to conceive Jesus. The Bible clearly states that the Holy Spirit of God miraculously created Jesus in Mary’s womb. After all, if there were any sexual act, then Mary would no longer be a virgin, correct?

    In fact, even the Quran does not strictly deny that God had a son – merely that God does not have a son by sexual union! See Walad and Ibn: Christianity Agrees With Islam, God Did Not Have a Son (Sexually) for more details.

    ————————————-

    There is a verse in the Quran whichs says (more or less transliteration) that, irresposible hands (may be Paul, I don’t know) who corrupted, interpolated the Bible. Unfortunately, the original Bible which was in Hebrew (or Aramaic?) was lost forever.

    I have addressed this issue before in a blog post, Was the Bible Changed? (Reasons Why It Could Not Have Been). In short, here are the reasons that Christians believe that the Bible was not corrupted:

    1) True, the original manuscripts have not been found. However, we have more than 24,000 ancient manuscripts containing text from the Old and New Testament which date back to as far as 300 AD (New Testament) and 700 BC (Old Testament). Comparing these ancient texts to the modern day Bible (in Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew), it is found that the contents are more than 99% the same.

    (Note also that the original Quran is also lost forever – the Quran that Mohammad saw was taken back to heaven, while the earliest copies of the Quran were destroyed by Caliph Uthman – who was not a prophet and was therefore capable of mistakes.)

    2) It is also unlikely that all these manuscripts could have been changed, because by the time that Mohammad appeared, there were thousands of copies of the Bible passages spread across Asia, Africa and Europe in dozens of languages. What’s more, Christians belonged to rival groups like the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox Church! It is quite impossible to work together and agree to change ALL these far-flung copies.

    3) As you have said, even Islam states that the source of the Bible is Allah. “He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind…” – from part of Al E Imran 3. So if this is true, then how can you say that Allah’s word is capable of being corrupted? Isn’t that saying that Allah is not all-powerful to protect his own words?

    If the previous word of Allah (the Bible) can be corrupted, how can you then be sure that the later word (Quran) is not similarly corrupted – since any corruption means Allah is not all powerful? This is especially important, because as I have mentioned, the imperfect Caliph Uthman compiled the current version of the Quran and destroyed all other copies. How can you be sure that he did not make any mistakes, if Allah’s word can be so easily corrupted?

    ————————————-

    Furthermore, the existing Bible versions – King James, International Version aand Standard Revised Version we unidentical to each other as we know.

    Modern Bible versions are merely different translations of the original text. The versions you quote are three English translations. There also exist translations of the Bible in Malay, Chinese, Tamil, Japanese, Spanish, Tagalog… You name it! The Bible is the most widely translated book in the world – but these translations do not claim to be the originals!

    What you need to do is take a modern Bible that is printed in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, and compare it to the ancient manuscripts I mentioned before.

    For example, the Dead Sea Scrolls copy of the book of Isaiah is written in Hebrew and is dated by secular researchers to 300 BC. Yet when it is compared, word for word and punctuation for punctuation, to the modern Hebrew Bible from 2000 AD, it is 99.95% the same – only a few punctuation marks like full stops are different!

    So as you can see, your objection is based on the issue of language. Yes, it would be more accurate if the Bible were only reprinted in the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek – just as the Quran is usually reprinted in the original Arabic. But Christians believe that spreading the message of the Bible to speakers of all languages is more important than quarreling over minute details of perfect translation accuracy.

    After all, if you actually opened those versiosn to look inside (instead of repeating what you have heard from others, but not checking for yourself), you might find that while the individual words are different, the overall meaning and message is the same.

    I shall provide an example. Tell me if the following have widely different meanings or not:

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. – John 14:6, King James version

    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. – John 14:6, New International Version

    Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. – Joehn 14:6, Revised Standard version

    Although the styles are different, each translation says the same thing: That Jesus is the ‘way, truth, life’ and the only way to come to the Father is through Jesus.

    ————————————-

    So the status of the Bible, its authenticity, veracity or reliability is highly contested (questioned). It seems to me it is fallible and cannot withstand the test of credibility. I am sorry again – we have to talk straight forward here.

    The Bible has a lot of verification from history, archaeology and even pagan documentation. For just two examples:

    The Cyrus Cylinder – The Bible’s book of Ezra mentions the Decree of Cyrus, which allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem. This account was ridiculed as being fantastical and unrealistic. But in 1879, archaeological digs discovered the Cyrus Cylinder which said the exact same thing.

    Jesus mentioned in non-Christian texts – Reference to Jesus is found in the writings of non-Christian Greek, Roman, Jewish and Syrian historians.

    ————————————-

    Bart Erhman is not a man it the street like me, but a religious scholar who taught religious studies at a famous university in Chapel Hill (South Carolina?) USA. Many, many positive and constructive critics actually about the “fallibility” of the Bible.

    I must admit that I was unfamiliar with Bart Erhman until you mentioned him. But does one man’s fluent argument make for a watertight case? If so, people like Richard Dawkins would long ago have dismantled Christianity. But as it stands, there are counter arguments to each of their claims. I will listen to Erhman’s speech when I have time, and provide rebuttals as I think of them.

    Many positive and constructive critics also support the Bible as being reliable. At the very least, I can cite four former atheist critics who attempted to refute the Bible, but after they had studied it extensively, had no choice but to conclude that the Bible was accurate and truthful. See Christianity – The Faith of Famously Intellectual, Logical, Reasonable Thinkers for details.

    Also, many positive and constructive critics have doubts about the authenticity and document accuracy of the Quran as well! But does that mean they are automatically correct?

    It is just that in the West, questioning of religion is allowed and even encouraged. While in Muslim nations, questioning the Quran is grounds for arrest or even death (no exaggeration)!

    Christians are encouraged to ‘seek the truth’ and ‘test all things’. Therefore, criticisms by skeptics are actually welcomed – because the questions force us to examine our beliefs, and search out whether our beliefs are based on truth or not.

    I have been searching continually for years now, and I have always found that my beliefs are based on truth.

    How about you?

  52. ruth Says:

    God said His words will stand forever…That statement alone proves the koran is a lie…He also said satan would come as an angel of light (messenger of god) with a false gosepl that teaches Jesus (issa) and another sprit of god ( allah)..2 Corinthians 11 -4,14..
    Allah is not the god of Abraham.. He is th ancient astrology moon god… This is proven by history and archeology..
    People who really know God know allah is not god and they also know Obama is not a saviour but in fact both allah and Obama are the destroyer , not the saviour ..
    There is only one way back to God and that is Jesus ..All other ways lead to hell…

  53. Muhammad Says:

    What is the name of the wailing wall in Isreal? – Barack

    What is the name of the creature Prophet Muhammad flew from Mecca to Isreal – Barack

    What does Obama mean? King…from the root word Oba..

    What were the names of the major players in the 2008 Election?
    JOHN
    JOE – JOESPH
    SARAH
    mcCAIN

    LOOK THESE FACTS UP…NOT SPOOKY, BUT SPIRITUAL SIGNS..

  54. ruth Says:

    Mohammed, IN HEBREW the name barack means LIGHTNING.. Jesus said in Luke 10-18 that satan comes as LIGHTNING..This is saying barack is satan…I agree..
    Barack may be the blessed one in Arabic but he is the antichrist satan incarnate in truth..
    As for the name Obama in Hebrew , O is used as a conjunction (the word and) and BAMAH means high places…High places are where the devil is worshiped..
    o-bamah..
    His name of HUSSEIN is the name mohammed left to his descendants.. The only name considering all his males offsprings died…This is also the name of the 12th imam…As I said earlier Barack means blessed in arabic but in Hebrew it means lightning…He is a counterfeit of the return of Jesus…He does not fool the elect of Christ.

  55. ruth Says:

    The above sign should really read OBAMA IS GODLESS…

  56. Scott Thong Says:

    The above sign should really read OBAMA IS GODLESS…

    – ruth

    That’s not true! Probably, he is his own god in his own mind. Just look at that arrogance and smugness whenever he makes a decision or utters a word.

  57. Scott Thong Says:

    What is the name of the creature Prophet Muhammad flew from Mecca to Isreal – Barack

    – Muhammad

    More accurately, it’s buraq – a half donkey, half mule creature.

  58. Scott Thong Says:

    The following is commented by Nasaei Ahmad at this off-topic post. I have reposted it here for the sake of continuity.

    ————————————–

    Dear Br. Thong,

    Thanks for response. I appreciate cordial exchange of views without emotion, without prejudice, as we did. I agree with you (honestly) that little differences in translation is okay, as long as it means the same. That for ‘translation’, transliteration or exegesis of the scripture. Translation is done by man not God. So, the original must be from God (as we all claimed, accepted with regard to the Bible and Quran). But the original must be the same. Muslims cannot accept if say, your Quran is different from mine ! And we do not called those “tafseer” (Quran translation) as Quran. The one that no muslim usually read were “tafsir (Yusuf ALi, Pitckall, Rashad Kalifa etc). That is not the case for us, Muslim because all Quran, which is in Arabic are same. Unfortunately that is not the case for “Bible” (books translation of the Bible you called it “Bible”). The three sample that you forwarded to me are okay, as I said above. Translations of Quran also varies a bit because translator did it and and certain wors are ambiguous. Besides the three sample you gave, how about hundreds (if not thousands more translation that you did not tell ? Scholars say, among the Bible versions, King James, Standard Reveised Version, International etc have serious differences (not like what you say – not little variation but big ones, even contradict itself). Everybody knows this. I was quite surprised you believe the Quran that was ordered burnt by Calif Uthman Al Affan was the ‘original’. Jimmy Swaggard, one of the world renowned Christian scholar claimed it before. I watched his debate, but he did NOT say it was the “original” as you did. He said was burning took place. Burning the defect Quran happened till today actually. If it is spoilt, lost it parts or proportions, we burn it. The contradictions statement in the Bible is what I meant, among others, NOT variation of transliteration. Pls email me for further exchange of views, my email is nasaei123@yahoo.com. Because sometime difficult to get acccess to this blog. Tq.

  59. Scott Thong Says:

    You misunderstood me on Caliph Uthman, Nasaei. Perhaps it was because my reply is very long, but what I said was:

    Note also that the original Quran is also lost forever – the Quran that Mohammad saw was taken back to heaven, while the earliest copies of the Quran were destroyed by Caliph Uthman – who was not a prophet and was therefore capable of mistakes. – Scott

    That is, I stated that the original Quran that Mohammad saw and read was taken back to heaven:

    (بَلْ هُوَ قُرْآنٌ مَّجِيدٌ﴿85 فِي لَوْحٍ مَّحْفُوظٍ﴿85 / Their denial does not affect the Qur’an at all), for this Qur’an is sublime: it is (inscribed) in the Tablet that is preserved – Sura 85:21-22).

    That is, the original Quran is on an eternal tablet with Allah, it is not on this Earth.

    On Caliph Uthman, what I stated was that he destroyed the earliest copies – note, I said the copies – of the Quran. He first had his followers collect the various versions and memorizations, compile his own ‘correct’ version, and then destroyed the rest.

    So ‘Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, “Send us the manuscripts of the Qur’an so that we may compile the Qur’anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you.” … ‘Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, ‘Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and ‘AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. … They did so, and when they had written many copies, ‘Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. ‘Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.Hadith Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, book 61, number 510

    But as I ask, how do you know that Caliph Uthmam did not make any mistakes?

    According to Islam, only Allah and the Prophets are incapable of sin, wrongs and mistakes. Caliph Uthman was not a prophet. He could have made mistakes. For example, from the Hadith I quoted earlier:

    Said bin Thabit added, “A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur’an and I used to hear Allah’s Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. – Hadith Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, book 61, number 510

    And also referenced here:

    Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: When we collected the fragramentary manuscripts of the Qur’an into copies, I missed one of the Verses of Surat al-Ahzab which I used to hear Allah’s Apostle reading. – Hadith Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 307

    Zaid bin Thabit was helping Caliph Uthman compile the Quran, and suddenly realized he had forgotten to include a verse of the Quran! How many other mistakes did he and his colleagues make that they did not realize?

    So since the original Quran is in heaven, and all the pre-Uthman copies were destroyed, today’s modern copies of the Quran are based on Caliph Uthman’s version.

    How can you be sure that Caliph Uthman’s version is actually correct and not corrupted, if the Torah and Injil can be corrupted?

    You have also said the following about the Bible:

    I agree with you (honestly) that little differences in translation is okay, as long as it means the same. That for ‘translation’, transliteration or exegesis of the scripture. Translation is done by man not God. So, the original must be from God (as we all claimed, accepted with regard to the Bible and Quran). But the original must be the same.

    Besides the three sample you gave, how about hundreds (if not thousands more translation that you did not tell ? Scholars say, among the Bible versions, King James, Standard Reveised Version, International etc have serious differences (not like what you say – not little variation but big ones, even contradict itself). Everybody knows this.

    – Nasaei Ahmad

    This ignores the fact that there exist modern day Bibles that have NOT been translated, that is, the Old Testament in Hebrew and Aramaic and the New Testament in Greek. In this case, the issue of differing translations is completely avoided – they are comparable to the Quran in its original Arabic.

    (It is a matter of fact that many pastors learn the New Testament in the original Greek. My pastor once told of how Paul’s letters were easy to read as he was a Pharisee with a good education, while Peter’s letters had horrible Greek since he was originally just a Jewish fisherman!)

    Again as I had mentioned earlier, a comparison of the modern untranslated Bibles to the ancient archaeological documents shows that they contain the same contents. For example (again), comparing the Dead Sea Scrolls copy of Isaiah from 300 BC to a modern Hebrew Bible’s book of Isaiah from 2009 AD finds only a few periods and punctuations marks difference.

    Please try and take the standard you are applying to the Bible, and apply it to the Quran. The moden Bible can be cross checked for accuracy with documents from 300 BC. How old are the documents that you can use to cross check the Quran – since Caliph Uthman destroyed all the copies he could find?

    I’ve reposted your comment at the correct post, and shall post your email replies there as well, for the benefit of anyone following this discussion.

  60. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Dear Br. Thong,

    Thanks. I had in the past, quite a number of times read and went thru’ the narration of that authentic Bukhari hadith which you posted to me. I’ m quite hectic with office works right now, (Godwilling we can get back to it again to revisit..so I couldn’t verify it exactly. From my glance reading, I believe you quoted it correctly from sources at your disposal. I think it is true, at time compiling the many ‘fragments’ of the Quran to make one ‘standard manuscript” by Caliph Uthman.

    For now, let me refresh you about something else interrelated to preservation of scripture, which perhaps some of our Christians brothers might have paid little notice to. Peoples of the past, be it in Christian, Greek era or Muslim era, many scholars said the mean of literature continuity was by memorizing. Folks were very good at memorizing texts, scripture verses, lullabies, song etc, besides soil tablets etc. They didn’t depend much on writing materials which were scare at that time.

    Maybe you are not quite sure that not only Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his close companions memorized by heart the whole contents of the Quran, but Muslims who lives during caliphs time were also very pious, righteous Muslims (till the extent that they were ready and willing to die in the battle – to be ‘shahid’ – not like today). Those peoples/ followers were many hafizs actually (but of course not all of them). If we come to them bringing a text or scripture, or even read to them a part, a surah, verses of the Quran, they will tell immediately if your ‘Quran’ is corrupted, missing it parts/ proportions – if it different from what they memorized.

    Uthman must had use this methodology in asking the ‘corrupted’ editions that to be burnt. I think. (I am not a scholar, I am sharing the info with you according to a layman Muslim’s point of view here). So in such tight ‘procedure’ and fact, I believe, as may imams say, not that easy to wipe out Quran from the face of earth because of memorization by many, many Muslims, TODAY and the past. Furthermore, in Quran itself, Allah said He is the One responsible to preserve Quran, not men or jinns.

    TODAY, no joke, true staff ! In Malaysia alone at least 6,000 Muslims memorized the whole content of Quran (quite a number of them are blinds men / women). Just imagine, pious peoples could memorize more than 6000 verses in their heart ! I heard some Muslim scolars said, the Quran in the form of a compiled book/papers are actually not the real Quran, they are calle ‘mushafs’ (written text), the real one (according to them) is those in the hearts of hafizs (Quran memorizers). The are millions of hafizs in the world today (no one knows the exact numbers I gues, as no hafozs registered themselves in an organization for example).

    I wander if the same thing happened to our Christian friends, maybe evangalists could memorize certain part of the Bible, I don’t know). But of course Bible has a bigger contents. Once again, no boasting or lie, in Malsysia alone thousand of Muslims memorized Quran by heart, without missing a single verse or word.

    I will discuss other topics that you touched when I have time later. Thans for communicating. Did you take time to listen to Bart Ehrman first before we go to many, many aspects next ?

  61. Scott Thong Says:

    For now, let me refresh you about something else interrelated to preservation of scripture, which perhaps some of our Christians brothers might have paid little notice to. Peoples of the past, be it in Christian, Greek era or Muslim era, many scholars said the mean of literature continuity was by memorizing. Folks were very good at memorizing texts, scripture verses, lullabies, song etc, besides soil tablets etc. They didn’t depend much on writing materials which were scare at that time.

    You are right in saying that in ancient times, history and traditions were passed down by repeating and memorizing orally. I am not sure how many people know this fact, but I as a Christian know about this from various sources such as Bibles with commentary explanation and Lee Strobel’s books, as do several of my compatriots.

    Most of the books of the Old Testament of the Bible actually probably put into writing around the time of the enslavement of the Jewish people by King Nebuchadnezzar, around 600 BC. This was because the scribes were worried that with the destruction of their temple and nation, the people might forget the words of God.

    However, even before that time, copies of the Law of Moses were put into writing, as can be seen in 2nd Chronicles 34:14While they were bringing out the money that had been taken into the temple of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found the Book of the Law of the LORD that had been given through Moses. This happened also around 600 BC, meaning that this Book of the Law of the LORD must have been written and then hidden long before this time.

    Whereas for the New Testament, by this time writing was a common practise. The Gospels and Acts were written as testimonies to be read in Christian gatherings, and the rest of the New Testament are all literally letters, sent by the Roman postal service of the time!

    Maybe you are not quite sure that not only Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his close companions memorized by heart the whole contents of the Quran, but Muslims who lives during caliphs time were also very pious, righteous Muslims (till the extent that they were ready and willing to die in the battle – to be ’shahid’ – not like today). Those peoples/ followers were many hafizs actually (but of course not all of them).

    Actually, the fact that many pious Muslims who had memorized the Quran were dying in battle was one reason Uthman was anxious to write it down. The more who died, the more likely that some part of the Quran would be lost forever. Thus he set out to put it all into writing and make copies of it.

    In Malaysia alone at least 6,000 Muslims memorized the whole content of Quran (quite a number of them are blinds men / women). Just imagine, pious peoples could memorize more than 6000 verses in their heart !

    I wander if the same thing happened to our Christian friends, maybe evangalists could memorize certain part of the Bible, I don’t know).

    Well, as I mentioned earlier, the Old Testament in ancient times was memorized in its entirety before the time of writing. I’m not sure how many people have memorized the entire Old and New Testament, though most pastors have many of the most important sections committed to memory.

    In my opinion, more emphasis is placed on understanding and applying the Scriptures. What is the use of a 6 year old knowing every verse by heart, but not knowing what the true meaning of the verses are?

    Perhaps it is my own preference, but I take pride in knowing the context, meanings, application and historical background of a passage of Scripture.

    For example, the parable of the Prodigal Son – although I cannot quote it word for word, I am proud to be able to tell the main points of the story and give an in-depth explanation about how the Jewish listeners of Jesus’ time would have caught the references and what the parable is supposed to teach about God. Pay attention to the bolded areas:

    “There was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

    “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

    “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ So he got up and went to his father.

    “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

    “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

    “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

    “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. “Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’

    “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

    ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ ”

    Luke 15:11-32

    Now, the many things I can tell listeners about this parable, that they might not catch from a mere memorization and recitation, are:

    1) Giving the share of the estate was the inheritance – it was supposed to be given only when the father dies. This makes the younger son’s request very insulting and uncaring. Yet the father gave him his wish, which shows the love the father has even after being insulted. This is meant to show the kind of love God has for us.

    2) The younger son only remembered his father’s love and repented after undergoing hardship. This is meant to show how people are, they only remember God during their times of difficulty.

    3) The father saw his son from a far way off – this means that the father was actually waiting and looking every single day for the son to come home! This shows what God is like, waiting all the time for us to come back to Him.

    4) The father ran to meet the son – in those days, rich men wore long robes, and to run he would have to pull up his robes and expose his legs! How shameful! Yet he loved and missed his son so much, he didn’t care what people thought. This shows how God loves us so much, He doesn’t care what people say or think (such as Jesus dying on the cross to save us from our sins being a foolish idea) – He will still love us.

    5) The father accepted his son home without any repayment or the son having to work for him. This shows and predicts the kind of arrangement God has for sinners – we do not have to do good deeds to earn our way to acceptance and heaven, God gives it to us freely if we only repent like the son, and accept Jesus’ sacrifice for us.

    6) And important side story – the older son who felt resentful that the father loved and accepted the foolish younger son, while the older son worked hard for the father without the same kind of joyful celebration. The father tells the older son that he is always with the father, and has everything the father has. This is meant for the Jewish listeners – they were the first to know God, yet instead of experiencing God with joy they tried to work their way to acceptance. Whereas as the younger brother’s treatment showed, all one has to do is come and fellowship with the father – that is, anyone who accepts Jesus can come to God at any time. Those who adhered to legalistic doctrines (the older brother/Jews) might have felt that giving free salvation (to the younger brother/people who accept Jesus) was unfair, hence the indignance.

    There is so much richness in just one passage! To me, this is what is worth my time remembering and what matters in religion – the inward effect, not the outward appearance.

    Did you take time to listen to Bart Ehrman first before we go to many, many aspects next ?

    Like you, I am a working person, and thus do not have the luxury of taking a break and watching Youtube until the weekend! This weekend is Good Friday and Easter Sunday, in which I am involved in several church and school Christian Fellowship activities. I shall see if I have the time.

    By the way: You mentioned before that there are some large differences and even contradictions between different Bible translations. Can you cite some of them? As I am not aware of which passages they might be.

    Also, take your time in carefully reading my earlier comments and responding to them. There is no rush, as we have as long as we like to discuss things.

  62. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks. Might be you are also aware of the attacks against the Quran as well e.g “contradictions in the Quran”, corruptions etc. I have read quite many of them. I will also discuss them when I’m feree sooner or later. We have also heard Muslims converted to Christianity, in Indonesia, Africa, Bangladesh etc. Besides, some Christian priests converted to Islam. It is good I think, if you have time to read their opinion, their testimony etc. I list some of them here: Yusuf Estes PhD – a former priest (he got many websites links to read about on internet – pls visit his website to find out why he left Christendom; Dr. Gary Miller, Dr. Ingrid Mattson, Dr. Jeremiah McAuliffe, Dr. Jeffry Lang, and many more (I can provide the more complete list later if you don’t mind, before I address the issues you raised to me ‘to respond’ on this your blog when I’m free – just for us to exchange views. So, to say “how can we verify (the purportedly “contradictions” or “errors” in the Bible just by one person (Bart Ehrman’s) experience is not quite correct. I mean, many views expressed by many prominent peoples including former priests about it as we all know.

    I feel a bit ‘funny’ that I learned something new, which I didn’t hear thus far. No Muslim scholar, ulamak, ustaz or imam as far as I’m concerned, said that the original Quran was taken back, or kept by Allah God Almighty after reveled it to Muhammad as you said. Maybe you got it from Christian sources which no one in Islamic circle could proved it correct. Or..you read by your own any of the translated verses in the Quran. Frankly I never heard that before and we Muslims do not believe so. The revelation that received by Muhammad (pbuh) was not in the form of papers, writing Arabic text etc, but in the form of ‘sound’ (reading of the Quranic verses the he heard from the Archangel Gabriel. So.. I have no idea..or how it (Quran) was somehow “taken back” or been kept by Allah.
    Maybe we should pinpoint or clarify it further. Whatever it is, no Muslim believe that, I think.

    Till then. Thanks again.

    Oh, whatever it is (our diverse opinion) I hope we all take part in making a better Malaysia for all. It is good as I noticed, today we have better check and balance by PR, controlling 4 states plus Federal Territory KL. Hidup rakyat !

  63. ruth Says:

    @ Corinthians 11 -14, 4..And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. ..An angel of light is a messenger of God…This angel of light that is coming as clarified in verse 4 teaches another Jesus, another spirit of god and another gospel.. Issa, allah and koran are these others…

    Galatians 1-8….But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.Again Pal warned us of angels from Heaven with perverted gospels..Mohamed’s angel and Joseph Smith’s angel both were satan in disquise..

  64. ruth Says:

    typo above.. should read 2 Corinthians 11: 14, 4

  65. Scott Thong Says:

    Thanks. Might be you are also aware of the attacks against the Quran as well e.g “contradictions in the Quran”, corruptions etc. I have read quite many of them. I will also discuss them when I’m feree sooner or later.

    Similarly, there are plenty of alleged contradictions in the Bible – as you yourself have mentioned. I myself know many of the explanations and defenses against such attacks. So if you put yourself in my shoes, you can see why a bunch of people citing problems with the Bible cannot so easily convince me that Christianity is mistaken. (Just as criticisms would not so easily convince you on Islam, correct?)

    We have also heard Muslims converted to Christianity, in Indonesia, Africa, Bangladesh etc. Besides, some Christian priests converted to Islam.

    May I state one major difference, Nasaei – those who convert from Christianity to Islam are freely allowed to do so, whereas in every Islamic country except Mali, it is illegal and often strictly punishable to convert from Islam to any other religion. You should already know how the treatment of ‘apostates’ is a major controversy here in Malaysia.

    If one’s beliefs is a matter of the heart and will be judged by the Almighty when that day comes, what business to people have in forcing others to follow something that they do not truly believe?

    So, to say “how can we verify (the purportedly “contradictions” or “errors” in the Bible just by one person (Bart Ehrman’s) experience is not quite correct. I mean, many views expressed by many prominent peoples including former priests about it as we all know.

    Agreed, making a decision – whether for or against – based on just one person’s ‘findings’ is insufficient. But just as there are many critics of the Bible, there are many defenders as well. I happen to be one of the latter, so it would be quite gutless of me to simply surrender, when I am supposed to be one of those who stand up to answer such allegations!

    On the matter of priests, I don’t suppose you would know this – but there is quite a wide gap between Roman Catholicism and the other denominations (such as Protestants and Evangelicals). Among the differences, Roman Catholics (RC) adhere to the traditions of the church as binding, while non-RCs use hold only the Bible as a guide. RCs also include various additional books as inspired by God, such as Maccabees 1 & 2, which non-RCs consider apocryphal (not enough evidence that they are genuine holy scripture).

    More to the point, one thing RCs had been lacking (but are now making up for more and more) is a personal relationship with God. I believe they are similar to Muslims in this aspect. Christianity is all about relationship, not religion, where we can actually know and befriend God, who is our loving Abba (Father, but in a similar closeness as ‘daddy’ or ‘papa’). I suppose this is a very unthinkable concept in Islam, where Allah is far beyond humanity).

    Anyway, that is one reason why there are quite a number of Roman Catholics who ‘convert’ to non-RC Christianity! Though we all claim to follow Jesus Christ, there is a large difference in the approach – ritual and good works for Roman Catholics, versus relationship and God’s grace for non-RCs (meaning, we cannot earn heaven no matter how hard we try – it is completely thanks to God’s free gift).

    I feel a bit ‘funny’ that I learned something new, which I didn’t hear thus far. No Muslim scholar, ulamak, ustaz or imam as far as I’m concerned, said that the original Quran was taken back, or kept by Allah God Almighty after reveled it to Muhammad as you said.

    Ah, perhaps you are right. I had heard about it before, but that was a long time ago. I do know that Muhammad heard the words of Allah and wrote them down, which is considered miraculous as he is supposed to be illiterate.

    But what did happen to the writings of the Quran that Muhammad wrote down, then?

    Oh, whatever it is (our diverse opinion) I hope we all take part in making a better Malaysia for all. It is good as I noticed, today we have better check and balance by PR, controlling 4 states plus Federal Territory KL. Hidup rakyat !

    Indeed, I support any party that adheres to an ethical, fair and just stance, whether it is BN, PR or anything else.

  66. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I guess you would agree with me that the basis of our believe should be and must be from the scripture. Anything not from the holy books is deemed to be deviation from true path of teaching, is wrong and not doctrine. We cannot whatsoever depend on tradition, inheritance. SOME peoples in society practiced ‘what they believe’, not what the scripture says. That happened in both Christianity and Muslims as well. They tend to deviate without realizing that it is wrong. Can we practice in wrong believe, guessworks, or ‘superstition’?.

    If I’m not mistaken, during Jesus time, Jesus did not mention about the cross idea in anyway or anything to do with it because the cross was cropped up and instituted by peoples who callem themselves as “Christians” after he was crucified. Today we see, in Philippines or some Latin America, some peoples even torture themselves to commemorate Jesus endurance or to demonstrate true conviction.

    As for Muslims in Iran, they beat and hurted themselves until bleeding in
    the a ritual to remember Ali, and his sons Hussin and Hassan. This is unacceptable and a clear deviation according to Ahlul Sunnah Waljamaah, the main and dominant sect of Muslims.

    Further, what do you think in the Bible, Jesus was refered as ‘Son of Man’ (83 times) and “son of God’ (13 times). After all why Jesus is called and accepted as Son of God after all. I am perplexed. How do you think ? I mean most of the times Bible says son of man.

  67. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Sorry, I guess many Christians will adapt to the idea of “both correct” to mean that Jesus is bot son of man and son of God as well – man cum god or so. Just to hear your view on this. Thanks

  68. Scott Thong Says:

    If I’m not mistaken, during Jesus time, Jesus did not mention about the cross idea in anyway or anything to do with it because the cross was cropped up and instituted by peoples who callem themselves as “Christians” after he was crucified.

    I guess that you are asking why the cross is used as a Christian symbol?

    Indeed, Jesus did not mention using anything as a symbol of the Christian faith. However, it is a reminder of the sacrifice that Jesus made on behalf of all people.

    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. – 1st Corinthians 1:18

    May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. – Galatians 6:14

    And in the very early days, Christians used the symbol of the fish – since Christians were persecuted, a believer who thought he had met another believer would draw half an oval. If the other person was also a Christian, he would know what this meant, and would draw another half oval to make a fish symbol.

    The Greek word for fish was used as an acronym that refers to Jesus’ traits, and also because of the relevance of fish in Jesus’ ministry (his disciples were former fishermen, Jesus told them they would ‘fish’ for men from now on). In fact, I sometimes see pendants and very often see car window/bumper stickers with the fish symbol instead of a cross!

    Other than the cross and the fish, the symbol of the dove is also commonly used, representing the Holy Spirit of God.

    In fact, on the matter of the cross, there is even some dispute about what shape it really was. Some parties say that it was only a straight vertical piece of wood, while others think that is was a capital T shape (I find this logical, as then the crossbeam where the person is nailed to would be supported from underneath by the vertical beam, which is more stable than nailing the crossbeam to the vertical beam from the side).

    I suppose in the end, religious believers (and secular groups too) like to have a symbol to represent them. Hence the cross for Christians, yin-yang symbol for Taoists, crescent moon and star for Muslims, star of David for Judaism, red and a single star for Communists.

    But make no mistake – ‘cross worship’ is not practised in any mainstream Christian church. Many churches do not even put up crosses in their halls.

    —————————————–

    Today we see, in Philippines or some Latin America, some peoples even torture themselves to commemorate Jesus endurance or to demonstrate true conviction.

    Well, I am not one to belittle other people’s method of showing their zeal for their religion. I take a less literal understanding of Jesus’ command to ‘carry your cross and follow Me’. But I wouldn’t be able to undergo the suffering these practitioners put themselves through, so I can’t judge them!

    —————————————–

    Further, what do you think in the Bible, Jesus was refered as ‘Son of Man’ (83 times) and “son of God’ (13 times). After all why Jesus is called and accepted as Son of God after all. I am perplexed. How do you think ? I mean most of the times Bible says son of man.

    Firstly, the term ‘son of man’ comes from a prophecy by Daniel.

    “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. – Daniel 7

    Daniel used the term ‘one like a son of man’ probably because that person looked human, as opposed to the strange creatures in the rest of Daniel’s vision.

    This ‘son of man’ could approach God face to face. He would be given supreme authority and rulership, over the entire universe and for all time. Daniel’s vision is interpreted to be a prophecy about the Messiah, who will seem human and yet be given the authority to rule from God.

    That is why Jesus often referred to Himself as ‘the son of man’ – not only to emphasize His connection to humanity, but also to claim the status of Messiah. Indeed, ‘Christ’ is simply the Greek translation of ‘Messiah’, and both of them mean ‘anointed one’ – that is, the person who is crowned as king. I can explain more about the Messiah concept if you wish.

    This kind of imagery of ‘one like the son of man’ is repeated in Revelation, which deals with the time in the future when Daniel’s prophecy will be fulfilled.

    —————————————

    So a question for you: Do you happen to know off the top of your head why the crescent moon and sometimes an accompanying star are often used to represent Islam?

  69. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Yeah. Malaysian policemen’s emblem on their hats is written in a simple Jawi / Arabic ‘allah’ and ‘muhammad’. Underneath is a tigerhead. It is not Islam taught to do so, but people/ certain authorities did. As for moon crescent, you will find very seldom a Muslim wear it or fix it on their garments or hang it in their homes because it is not something emphasized by Islam. Mosques in China are like ordinary temples in architecture even though they put it also a crescent atop. I don’t know the historical relevance on it uses, but for sure Islam does not emphasize it.nd NOT a basic tenet or part of a ritual.

    I think people (of any group) prefer to distinguish themselves by a symbol of their uniqueness – difference from the rest, maybe.

  70. Scott Thong Says:

    Such as these nations:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_and_crescent#Flags_depicting_star_and_crescent

  71. ruth Says:

    THE WORD CROSS
    occurs 28 times in 28 verses in the KJV
    Matt 10:38..And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
    Mark 10:21 and 15:21 and 15:30 . Luke 9:23 and many more…

  72. ruth Says:

    The crescent moon and star existed long before Islam..There are many ancients relics that prove it.. The crescent moon and star are ancient symbols of the forbidden worship of astrology gods of Deut 4:19..
    I believe the older crescent moon and star symbols of Islam were encircled to represent the sun…
    The very fact Islam still uses the moon and star implies it is a throw back to astrology worship which prevailed over the entire earth before God called Abraham out of it…

  73. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I used to argue plainly (as a layman Muslim) with an avid atheist on internet. To him, religion is nothing but a bunch of a “fairy tales” inherited from generations. I think an atheist won’t believe in anything if it cannot be ‘proved’ by modern science. I told him that we cannot see God by a microscope. Not even with the sophisticated Hubble Space Telescope that is being used by NASA to see distant objects and stars in galaxies or nebula in space. However I said, not only God that our naked eyes can’t but lots more things. And our eyes are very limited in capability – we can’t even see virus unaided, we can’t see electricity current, micro grativity, magnetic field and lot more. Do not they all exist around us? What about radio frequencies or wave, can we see them ? Not to mention God, angels, satan or ghost etc. I also asked him if he can confirm with me whether the effects of black magic such as voodoo in Africa and Carrabean countries do EXIST or not. Just imagine, when a shaman reads his mantras, immediately soon after, his ‘prey’ some 2 kilometers away would collapse in pain ! I asked him whether that evil thing can be prove in his test tube ? How about telepathy (how it works), and hypnotization etc which modern scienec has no answer and can never be analyzed.. So I said, lots more things that EXIST which science can never give an answer. Our eyes even cannot see gaseous such as ammonia, sarin, or air vapor. Do not they exist ?

    However he agrees that the world and whole universe have a beginning. I asked him where do matters come from (soil, sand, water, planets, stars etc) since all were not there 18 billions ago ? He said it was from a hugh gaseous mixture. But then I said, gas mixture itself was not there before it existed, where did it come from if not created by God ?. We ended our agrument unsettled.

  74. Scott Thong Says:

    You did well to argue on the point of ‘Where did everything come from?’. According to science, the entire universe – including all matter, energy, space and time – was created during the Big Bang. Before the Big Bang, there was no space or time.

    So what caused the Big Bang? What changed things, especially when we consider that there is no such thing as time? According to the atheist: Everything was created by nothing, from nothing, because of nothing.

    So they are stuck – because science says exactly the same thing as religion, that everything was created from nothing. The difference is that we have God as the cause that started the creation process, while the atheist has nothing.

    But I disagree with your citing of black magic and psychic phenomena. It is actually easy to test, prove or disprove such occurences. And proving they exist does nothing to support your religion. This is because black magic etc. are actually competitors to your religion. It would be like arguing how Hinduism is true, which helps prove religion in general, but hurts the argument for your religion in specific.

    Perhaps a better example to use is this:

    Imagine I am a blind man who is blind from birth and who has never tasted an apple before. One day, I ask you to describe the appearance and taste of an apple. You can tell me it is red – I ask, what is red? You can then try to describe it to me, but if you compare ‘red’ to other colours, it doesn’t help since I have never seen those colours. Then you try and tell me how it tastes – but although you can say it is sweet, fruity etc, you cannot really explain it to me unless I can taste one myself.

    This is how it is with the ‘experiential evidence’ of God. We know God exists from our own experience – but how can we possibly explain or describe it to someone who has never experienced God himself? It is just like describing colour to a blind man.

    And if you want to have some fun with atheists, tell them that you are an a-atheist and that athiests must be god by their own definition!

  75. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    The said atheist also explained to me that all living thing originated from a single primitive cell, unicell like protozoa, and that DNA or RNA that made things live thru long evolution, more or less. Yes I said, we all learned that in school, but we believe evolution,DNA and cell are made or destined by God. I cannot accept the idea of anything exist or start to appear by itself. It must have a kind of ’cause and effect’ like for example, for thing to drop it needs gravity; for water to vaporize it needs kind of temperature or sufficient heat. For air or cloud to move, it must have been influenced by low or high pressure areas. But after all, those things were destined and fixed by God.

    I asked him also to explained to DNA. I gave him a very simple steps or chronology:

    1—-2—-3—-4

    Imagine Adam (or FIRST ever living thing – any living thing, life, or anything). Remember I said, 17 or 18 billions yrs ago nothing exist. All things except God has a beginning. Modern science accept the hypothesis/ theory (though Stephen Hawkings said alone..the universe has no beginning !)

    Since he said 4 got its DNA from 3, 2 from 1, then I asked him where did 1 gets his gene or DNA since 1 was the first ever ? What evolution is there if not created by God !

  76. Today’s Tidbits Says:

    [...] The Obamessiah (84 Adulations) Idolatry taken to all new heights of ass-kissing.  Humans are no smarter now than they were thousands of years ago, humans now just have more toys. [...]

  77. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Let’s get back to religious interfaith dialogue. More often than not, exhange of opinion and views usually turned haywire and unsettled because we valued someting by a different standard or benchmark. Muslims say God cannot, does not and will not incarnate but for Christians incarnation is part of believe. For Muslims as tells by the Quran verses Al Ikhlas, Allah Almighty is NOT like anything of his creatures – not even similar to our imigination; he does not produce any son or being son of anybody; he is not ‘new’ (everything other than God is ‘new creation’). So, if He ‘incarnates’, that would be something ‘new’ relatively. So, according to Muslim views, the idea of incarnation of God (be it in the form of man, angels or whatever creatures/ forms/images is something unacceptable since it is against Quran statements. You see, we used different standard or value to ‘measure’ or verify issues at hand. Almost futile.

    However, I think checking our scripture again is the better way of discussion. Pinpoint them. That’s my personal approach.

    By the way, Muslim believes that all scriptures of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam – Torah (old Testament), Bible and Quran are all came from the same sources i.e God Almighty. These religions of the ‘peoples of the Books” originated and started in the Middle East as we know. And a Muslim is not a Muslims if he doesnt believe in Jesus. We believe in Jesus as Christians do believe (he born miracalously by virgin Mary without a biological father; he was a Messiah (Quran says this); he performed many miracles e.s curing lepers, raised the death persons, cured the blinds tec. The ONLY thing we Muslim cannot accept is that he is ‘son og God’ (at the same time ‘god’ himself ?) – considered blasphemous.. corruption, interpolation etc. So, that are the difficult parts.

  78. Scott Thong Says:

    he does not produce any son or being son of anybody; he is not ‘new’ (everything other than God is ‘new creation’). So, if He ‘incarnates’, that would be something ‘new’ relatively.

    According to the Christian understanding, Jesus was not ‘created’ at the point when the Virgin Mary conceived – rather, Jesus = God already existed since before time began, and the conception was merely His taking on a physical form.

    Even in the Old Testament, God appears several times in the form of ‘an angel’. (It may be that He is described as an angel because the witnesses simply cannot compare what they have seen to anything else.)

    The ‘angel of the LORD’ is equated with God because He is worshiped and given burnt offerings to, something reserved only for God, and also because of what the witnesses say:

    There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” – Exodus 3:2,4

    The angel of the LORD replied, “Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the LORD.” (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the LORD.) … We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!” – Judges 13:16,22

    Note that Jesus also accepted worship, even while saying that there is only one God.

    ———————————-

    We believe in Jesus as Christians do believe (he born miracalously by virgin Mary without a biological father; he was a Messiah (Quran says this);

    Messiah and Christ mean the same thing – they are Hebrew and Greek for ‘Anointed One’.

    The meaning of this comes from the way a king was publicly declared in ancient times – olive oil would be poured onto his head to anoint him. Thus, ‘Messiah’ carries the connotations of being a king – appointed by God to rule over all creation.

    It therefore makes no sense if the Messiah is merely another human prophet, and not a God-appointed ruler over the universe… At least in the sense of the original meaning of the term ‘Messiah’.

    ———————————-

    The ONLY thing we Muslim cannot accept is that he is ’son og God’ (at the same time ‘god’ himself ?) – considered blasphemous.. corruption, interpolation etc. So, that are the difficult parts.

    Agreed that this issue, along with salvation through Jesus alone and the status of Mohammad as a prophet, are the biggest disagreements between Muslims and Christians.

    I can only say that the attributes and notion of God is very different between our two beliefs. Islam defines Allah as unknowable, unreachable, untouchable, impossible to comprehend. Whereas Christianity defines YHWH as wanting to be known, reaching out to us, touching our lives from within, and having a love that is impossible to comprehend.

  79. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Is it insufficient for these following two Biblical verses to prove Jesus (pbuh) divinity? To me , inadequate. Maybe not to you Br. Thong:

    “Before Abraham was, I am”

    “God and I are one”.

    I dont think it is one in essense, but one in purpose (the ‘purpose’ is to
    get humankind serve and worship the one and only God Almighty). This call to believe in God was made by many many prophets since Abraham, even Adam till Muhammad (pbuh).

  80. Scott Thong Says:

    Yes, the argument that Jesus was merely referring to oneness of purpose is often raised in reference to these verses. Taken alone, I agree that these two verses can easily be refuted. However, there are other arguments and passages that support Jesus’ divinity:

    ——-

    1) Other instances of Jesus equating Himself with God:

    Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit – Matthew 28:19

    Note that Jesus did not say many names, but a singular name – implying that all three of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit share one name (likely to be YHWH).

    In another case, the intentional use of ‘Elohim’ (translated as ‘God’ in the English NIV) is cited as evidence:

    The Old Testament had a singular term for God, Eloah, which they occasionally used, but the vast majority of the time the plural form of God, Elohim, is used throughout the Old Testament.

    Had there been only two persons within God, the Hebrews could have used a dual form Elohiayim, which was typically (although not always) used of things that occured in pairs.

    ——-

    2) Jesus often accepted worship of Himself. To cite just one example:

    Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. – Matthew 28:9

    Worship is reserved only for God, which every Jew knew. This does mean that Jesus is preaching polytheism either, as He says clearly:

    ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. – Mark 12:29

    Since only God can be worshiped, and Jesus is worshiped, and there is only one God, therefore: Jesus is the same as the one God of Israel.

    ——-

    3) Jesus is referred to as God by others.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. – John 1:1

    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” – John 20:28

    One argument against the latter is that Thomas was merely ‘swearing’, that is, going “Oh my God!” the way Hollywood actors always do. However, the original Greek has Thomas exclaiming “The Lord of me and the God of me!” which better fits a declaration by Thomas that Jesus is His God.

    ——-

    4) Jesus did things reserved only for God:

    When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” – Mark 2:6-7

    By the Judeo-Christian definition, every sin is not just an offense against another human, but is also an offense against God because it violates His law and disrespects His authority.

    ——-

    5) In the Old Testament, God speaks through the prophets and says that the Messiah is God Himself.

    Instance one, God refers to the crucified one as being Himself:

    And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced>, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. – Zechariah 12:10

    Instance two, the promised Messiah child is God Himself:

    “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” – Isaiah 6:6

  81. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Among the many verses, to me (and for most Muslims), Mark 12:29 is straight foward verse, explicit and unequivocal that this uncorrupted original Biblical verse (not all are corrupted)..is the prove that God is One. Doesn’t need extra explanation (but you explained ..”Since only God can be worshiped, and Jesus is worshiped, and therefore there is one God..therefore Jesus is the same as the one God of Israel…”. I had noticed this a number of times before in peoples’ arguments. You and other Christian UNDERSTOOD it in oppose of us Muslim. One coin, two (or more) understanding.

    Jesus is refered to as “God” by other according to Bible. If I’m not mistaken (please check yourself) the devil is also called “god” in the Bible !
    And in fact, many other peoples are refered to as son of god in the Bible, NOT Jesus alone. Not! You see how perplexed is the Biblical statements. Pls correct me if I’m wrong. (devil is also called ‘god’, and many other personalities are called ‘son of god’ in the Bible. This leads to what you called ‘trinity’ then ?

    Trinity itself cannot be found in the whole Bible, then..where did this word came from ? Constatinapole and his men got it at Nicaea Council (323 CE) ? I don’t know (really).

    Not only ‘trinity’ cannot be found, I guess its concept also nowhere in the Bible. So, we depend on churches explanations, interpretation.

    If you have time, pls listen to debate between Ahmed Deedat vs Dr Anish Shorrosh – two specialists on youtube, entitled “Is Jesus God ?”. There are 2 series. One, about 22 tapes, the other abou 16 tapes. Debate was held in Royal Albert Hall London in the 80s. Don’t miss some of it parts.
    Deedat explained also ‘Elohim” and many, many other issues. Dr Anis an Arab Christian, were so dependen on his showmanship and palin eloquence, but according to the video English commentator, he lost the task. This debate is viewed worldwide. Both speaker are well versed, famous. Pls listen when you free later.

  82. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    In that video, according to Deedat, like Quran Bible also says what God is NOT. e.g not like any of His creature (Quran version).

    “How then, can man be justified with God? How can he be clean that is born of a woman ?” (Job 25 : 2-6).

    According to Deedat, this explicit Bible verse, anybody born of a woman including Jesus, Muhammad, Adam (or whomever) cannot be ‘god’. Cannot be compared with God.

    Like the above verse you quote (Mark 12:29) is also VERY CLEAR, God is only one God. why confused ? I think because some parts of Bible is corrupted..like verses that implied people worship Jesus, phonography (incest incidents etc. God words cannot contains such heinous thing, I guess). Not to mention CLEAR contradiction.

    Call no man your father on earth; for there is ONLY one is your father in the heaven”
    (Matthew 23:19)

  83. Scott Thong Says:

    devil is also called ‘god’, and many other personalities are called ’son of god’ in the Bible.

    The devil is never called ‘god’, not to my knowledge. The closest the Bible ever comes is referring to him as the ‘morning star’ (disputed, as it could simply be referring to a human king) and ‘prince of the air’. Are you sure about your sources?

    As for ‘son of god’, it is true that others have been referred to using this title. However, no one claims to be the ONE AND ONLY Son of God the way Jesus does. The New Testament only refers to Jesus as ‘the Son of God’, singular. Never to any others.

    This also does not address the fact that Jesus allowed people to worship Him. If He were truly a moral prophet of God, could He allow such a thing if He were not truly God? CS Lewis put it this way in his ‘Trilemma Argument':

    Jesus says He is God (through things such as forgiving sins, being one with the Father, being worshiped). This leaves us with three conclusions:

    1) He is lying.
    2) He is insane.
    3) He is telling the truth.

    If 1 or 2 are the answer, then Jesus cannot be a prophet of God. Agreed?

    Therefore, logically, the only acceptable answer is 3, if Jesus is moral and sane.

    ——————

    Trinity itself cannot be found in the whole Bible, then..where did this word came from ? Constatinapole and his men got it at Nicaea Council (323 CE) ? I don’t know (really).

    Not only ‘trinity’ cannot be found, I guess its concept also nowhere in the Bible. So, we depend on churches explanations, interpretation.

    Don’t get confused – although the WORD ‘Trinity’ is not found in the Bible, the concept is there, as my previous citations of Old Testament passages has shown.

    This can be compared to other words that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible, but are indisputably there – such as ‘substitutionary sacrifice’, which refers to the doctrine that Jesus died for our sins. They are simply modern words used to describe a particular teaching or belief found in the Bible.

    ———————-

    “How then, can man be justified with God? How can he be clean that is born of a woman ?” (Job 25 : 2-6).

    According to Deedat, this explicit Bible verse, anybody born of a woman including Jesus, Muhammad, Adam (or whomever) cannot be ‘god’. Cannot be compared with God.

    I can think of two counters to this argument.

    Firstly, not everything that is said in the Bible is TRUE. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that the Bible is false or lying! What I mean is, the Bible often records the lies and fallacies sinful people tell. For example, the serpent intentionally lying to Eve, and the fallacy of the pagan kings boasting that God cannot win against their pagan deities.

    Similarly, not everything that Bildad the Shuhite (the speaker of this verse) says is necessarily true. He is not infallible according to Christian doctrine, and throughout the book of Job, he and his friends have the WRONG idea that God must be punishing Job for.

    Secondly, the verse is stated in the form of a question: “How then can a man be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure?”

    To which the answer is provided by Jesus:

    When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” – Matthew 19:25-26

    It’s as simple as that – IF the verses uttered by Bildad the Shuhite are true, then ordinarily, no person born of a woman can be clean. Yet with God, and ONLY and PRECISELY because God is involved, it is possible. Men can be justified with God ONLY through the sacrifice of the perfect and sinless Jesus Christ.

    Honestly, I find Ahmad Deedat to often be either poorly versed in the Bible (despite his boasts), or else intentionally misleading. I am familiar with his errors from reading the transcript of the debate he had with Josh McDowell, where Deedat demonstrated a clear lack of reading of the Bible passage he was citing (he said that all the apostles abandoned Jesus at His arrest, yet didn’t seem to know that immediately afterward some of them followed Jesus from a distance).

    (In fact, this raises an interesting potential self-contradiction by Job – Job says that no one born of woman is clean, yet if this is true that what he says could easily be false, since he too is unclean!)

    —————————-

    I think because some parts of Bible is corrupted..

    Again with the corrupted allegation… Let me ask you a question, when the Quran says that the Bible is corrupted by certain men, does it mean that some copies of the Bible were changed, or all copies of the Bible were changed?

    If it is the former, then that does not affect the vast majority of Bibles on which the modern reprints are based on. Compare with Caliph Uthman’s compilation of the Quran – you state that he probably did a good job and managed to preserve the Quran. If he and his four followers managed to do such a thing, is it not possible that the hundreds and thousands of Jews and Christians who have worked on the Bible also can manage an accurate compilation?

    What is more, there are thousands of ancient Bible manuscripts and fragments to compare the modern reprints to, which can be used to verify the accuracy of the Bible. This cross-checking measure is not available with the Quran.

    —————————–

    like verses that implied people worship Jesus, phonography (incest incidents etc. God words cannot contains such heinous thing, I guess). Not to mention CLEAR contradiction.

    This is a strange argument… Are you saying that because God’s word is holy, it cannot contain references to unholy things?

    By this definition, the Quran would also be invalidated as Allah’s word, as it mentions things such as adultery, murder, idolatry, etc. Wouldn’t it???

    And I am very well versed on the alleged contradictions of the Bible.

    If you want to start on the contradictions, I suggest you begin by:

    1) Citing – ONE AT A TIME – an alleged contradiction in the Bible.

    2) I will then respond with my explanation. After this explanation, I will cite – ONE AT A TIME – an alleged contradiction in the Quran.

    3) You may then respond to that allegation and then follow up with a new allegation of contradiction the Bible. In addition, you may also raise any issues with the explanation I provided if you find it unsatisfactory.

    4) And so on.

    That sounds fair to me. If you wish to begin, you may do so at any time.

  84. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Brthr. Thong,

    Pls dont view it as an attack on the Holy Bibly, the Holy Quran. We exchanged views. And I supposed, you are not answerable to me, and I’m not to you, but to the ‘world’. So, we are part of them.

    Now, as usual, I’m so busy with office works. Monday we will be orgabising a national level seminar and my office is the organizer, secretariat. Really busy, but I’m taking time to respond, but not to address ALL issues now.

    You said devil never refered to s ‘god’. However the late Ahmad Deedat said that, in his debate with Dr. Anis Shorrosh, in London, in front the vast audience, i guess many academicians – professors, lecturers, scholars. He lied in front of such a high profile capacity of audience ? I dont think so! So, I’m a layman, cannot and uncompetent to be answerable to anybody. I’m happy if you listen and watch that debate on Youtube today, or tomorrow. Pls dont miss any parts. When at home is better.

    Dr. Shorrosh bukan calang2 orang. Bahasa Arab is his mother tongue and he holds PhD in Divinity, I dont think many peoples including ordinary priest would be on par with this man. But with Deedat, a well known scholar, he (Shorrosh) could not handle or answer many of the fundamental issues, except plain eloquence and ‘showmanship’. Why? because of the status of Holy Bible itself I think. Evidence is the Bible verses itself. Listen to what the video commentators said in one of the tapes.

    We are no now, not to win the debate but to discuss the issues – most of them are known worldwide. Really.

    For now , I like to show you just 1 of many examples of ‘Quran contradictions’ as claimed by certain quarters.

    In an ayat (verse), Quran says one day in hereafter is equals to 1,000 yrs. In the other ayat, equals to 50,000 yrs.

    As common Muslim like me, we read Quran every day in prayer (yes many of it verses are ambiguous, subtle, unclear – it remains so till the day of judgment, and I think nobody including scholars, knows what it is exactly). We read many time “yaumulqiamah” (“yaum” is day in Arabic, “qiamah” is doomsday literally).

    This doomsday we Muslims read almost everyday in prayer. In fact NO So in such a situation, how man like us with little knowledge, argue on something they are no familiar with!

    When we say ‘yaumulqiamah’, does not mean a day of 24hr like today, – with moon, sun, sometimes rainy or drizzle, etc ! Many muslims believe it NOT like today’s ‘day’ (24hr day). But it is eternal, immortal, no ending, infinite. So it could be “50,000 yrs”, 100,000 yrs. Yet Quran called it “A DAY” (in reference to it). 1,000= A day; 10,000= a day; 50,000yrs= a day, as it is called. We argue with no sure knowledge. With no ending. Only God knows best. Could be (i dont know) a day = a period of time.

    Some of the contradiction claims were also invalid claim. Next time I will provide more if i’m free.

  85. Scott Thong Says:

    You said devil never refered to s ‘god’. However the late Ahmad Deedat said that, in his debate with Dr. Anis Shorrosh, in London, in front the vast audience, i guess many academicians – professors, lecturers, scholars. He lied in front of such a high profile capacity of audience ? I dont think so!

    Here is a search of the entire Bible for the terms ‘devil’ or Satan’. None of the passages in which he is mentioned call him God, or even a god or a deity.

    The only passage that barely comes close is when the devil tries to get Jesus to betray God:

    “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
    Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'” – Matthew 4:9-10

    And one passage that I suspect is what Deedat might quote:

    Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. – 1 Chronicles 21:1

    This has been compared to a similar verse before:

    Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah. – 2 Samuel 24:1

    Taken at a shallow level, one could argue that this shows that Satan = the LORD, because they are both cited as inciting David to take a census of Israel. But this is easily debunked if knows about the hierarchy of the heavens as illustrated in the book of Job.

    “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
    The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” – Job 1:9-12

    You can see the similarity with David’s census. The devil cannot do anything unless God removes His protection from a person. Basically, Satan or any other evil force cannot do anything unless God gives them permission. Sometimes, God allows such evil forces to harass humanity in order to accomplish a greater purpose.

    So yes, both the LORD and Satan incited David to take a census, but that doesn’t mean they are one and the same. Because of David’s sin, God decided to punish Israel, and used/allowed the devil to accomplish the punishment.

    A more thorough explanation can be found at this site.

    Is that verse what you heard Deedat talking about?

    I will try and watch the video you recommended to find out what Deedat is going on about. Or else, you can tell me what part of the Bible he is quoting or what the context is.

    ———————————–

    You said devil never refered to s ‘god’. However the late Ahmad Deedat said that, in his debate with Dr. Anis Shorrosh, in London, in front the vast audience, i guess many academicians – professors, lecturers, scholars. He lied in front of such a high profile capacity of audience ? I dont think so!

    As I said before, Ahmad Deedat has previously proven to be either ignorant or dishonest when it comes to the Bible. And yes, he has previously either lied or shown his ignorance before a huge, high profile audience:

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Debates/Deedat_McDowell.html

    AHMAD DEEDAT: Not only that, I can have this case dismissed TWICE in two minutes in any court of law in any civilized country. I said twice because one of the testators in the Gospel of St. Mark, chapter 14, verse 50, tells us that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus, all His disciples forsook Him, and fled. ALL. If they were not there, the testimony of those who were not there to witness what happened will be thrown out of court. I said, twice in two minutes, in just 120 seconds flat, the case would be over. In any court of law. in any civilized country in the world.

    JOSH MCDOWELL: Other people, through limited reading and absence of any type of research, say that the documents of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are hearsay because the writers were not eyewitnesses of the events surrounding the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    The people who say that will often appeal to Mark 14:50. They say that within two minutes they could dismiss the argument because Jesus’ followers all left Him and fled. So therefore, everything was hearsay. Men and women. this line of reasoning ignores common sense in the facts of the case. For example, read just the next four verses. It says this: “And Peter followed Him.” You see, they left Him in a group, but they came back individually – immediately, Mr. Deedat.

    Verse 4 says: “And Peter followed Him at a distance.” He went right into the courtyard of the high priest. And he was sitting there with the officer. Can you imagine? With the officers, and warming himself. In Mark 14, it says, “And Peter was below, in the courtyard.” Men and women, if you have studied the Scriptures, you’ll realize that Mark, in his gospel, was writing down all the eyewitness accounts of Peter. Peter was right there. Then we go to John 18, verse 15: “And Simon Peter was following Jesus, and so was another disciple. Now that disciple was known to the high priest and entered with Jesus into the court of the high priest.” John 19:26, “When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, ‘Woman, behold your son.’ ” They were eyewitnesses. They were there.

    Ahmad Deedat debated Josh McDowell publicly in Durban, South Africa (Deedat’s own town). He made an accusation about the Bible’s account, and Josh McDowell proved him wrong on that point. Thus it was shown publicly that Ahmad Deedat made an accusation about the Bible, yet did not even know/bother to read four verses further where his point is derailed.

    Either Deedat was really sloppy, not bothering to read four verses after what he quoted… Or he had read it (being such an expert on the Bible), yet intentionally did not reveal the truth to the audience, perhaps in the hope that McDowell would be unable to answer his accusation.

    So from history, at least once before, Deedat has proven to be either ignorant or intentionally hiding the facts when it comes to the Bible.

    By the way, you cite Ahmad Deedat’s debate with Dr. Anis Shorrosh:

    But with Deedat, a well known scholar, he (Shorrosh) could not handle or answer many of the fundamental issues, except plain eloquence and ’showmanship’. Why? because of the status of Holy Bible itself I think. Evidence is the Bible verses itself.

    But if you use other examples of Deedat’s debates, such as his debate against McDowell that I just cited, you might find that his opponents can hold their own against him. Therefore, using your own reasoning, since McDowell seems to easily defend his stand in that debate, I would say that the Bible’s status is perfectly valid.

    In fact, from my reading of the transcript of the Deedat-McDowell debate, here’s my conclusion 2 years ago:

    When you read through Mr. Deedat’s speech, you might realize (as I did) that he is a very skillful speaker. He knows how to take facts and present them in a way that is supportive to his arguments.

    He makes himself out to be both knowledgeable and correct about the topic, while his opponents are made out to be mistaken and brainwashed. If one didn’t know his Scripture well, Mr. Deedat’s chosen interpretation would be greatly convincing, turning the crowd to his side.

    That is, until Josh McDowell starts to speak. It’s as if a bright light has been switched on, and the many flaws and selective portrayals in Mr. Deedat’s points are revealed. Then you realize that Mr. Deedat’s interpretations are not the only valid ones. In fact, now they don’t seem very valid at all, whereas you can suddenly see the validity in the interpretations he was ridiculing!

    …Josh McDowell’s excellent defense of the Christian stand. He uses plenty of research, facts and quotes as becomes immediately apparent. A stunning amount even!

    You realize he’s certainly done his homework here, many times quoting from Mr. Deedat’s own writings.

    …than the harping on your own viewpoint and interpretations that Mr. Deedat prefers.

    ———————-

    Some of the contradiction claims were also invalid claim. Next time I will provide more if i’m free.

    Well, that’s up to you if you want.

    In fact, I allow you to raise one alleged contradiction in the Bible per comment, and I will respond as best I can without raising any allegations against the Quran.

  86. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    In relation to ‘day’ ambiguity above. I forgot. The first (1 day equals 1,000yrs) in comparison of today’s ‘day’ to the ahirat (time span in the Daya of Judgment). In the other ayat, Quran refers to the time taken by angel to ascend to God (50,000 yrs). the time taken here is also called ‘a day” or the day by the Quran. Ten peolples argued.

    Well.. from my leisure reading on internet, only John Jilchrist answered and catered Deedat in a more convincing fashion. Shorrosh, Mc Dowell, Sjorberg, Jimmy Swaggard ans many more failed miserably (NOT me who said that..pls read Wikipedia “Jimmy Swaggard” – read what is written (commentary) at the bottom there – a comment by famous priest,, he said Swaggard fell flat. NOT jut me said so, Christian themselves. Read it youirself Brthr Thong. That’s why I told you dont miss any part of those debatetapes, because the English commentator said “SHORROSH LOST THE TASK” in his debate with Deedat. I believe the commentator was not a Muslim, maybe youtube or debate organizer/ moderator.

    One crazy “thing” yet again here! (like verse “How can man be justified with God above! (Job 25:2-6).

    Jesus said :” Away from me, Satan! For it is written; worship the Lord your God, and serve Him alone !” (Matt 4:9-10). Deedat also quoted this in that debate if I remember correctly. TO Muslims, these two verses, IN FACT proved that the uncorrupted parts tells exactly (anyoneone born by woman cannot be god; worship only God Almighty (not worship Jesus). I dont understant why we Muslim and Christian intrepreted “contrastly” the clear cut verses ! You said because peoples worship Jesus, then Jesus is the God, or so.. If i debate with you, I’ll tell you these 2 verses say unequivocally, but Christians understood the other way around. Why?

    Is not thet Jesus (Nabi Isa alaihisallam) remind us, “WORSHIP GOD YOU ONLY LORD” but you worship Jesus the one who brought us messages/ revelations ! What wrong with me a Muslim and with you a Christian ?

    Yes, I have little biblical knowledge, but those 2 verses understandable by kids !

    Then..about the contradiction: we both do not need to feed each other the list of contradictions for Bible and Quran. We can print on internet – hundreds of them, now. Print it. Most of them unsettled for years. You gave me the website “answering Islam”, get it yoursef brother Thong “answering Christian” page. I visited many of them including reading Mc Dowell’s articles previously. All aAt our fingertips..

    So, what is out “grey area’ where we disagree? . Thanks.

  87. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    If you didnt find the comment the pries gave in wikipedia, then visit wikipedia again. Read Deedat profile as well. I read it before, either in Swaggard profile or Deedat, The comment (by Chinese priest) is there !

    He said Swaggard couldnt answer Deedat issues well. Thanks

  88. Scott Thong Says:

    Jesus said :” Away from me, Satan! For it is written; worship the Lord your God, and serve Him alone !” (Matt 4:9-10). Deedat also quoted this in that debate if I remember correctly. TO Muslims, these two verses, IN FACT proved that the uncorrupted parts tells exactly (anyoneone born by woman cannot be god; worship only God Almighty (not worship Jesus). I dont understant why we Muslim and Christian intrepreted “contrastly” the clear cut verses ! You said because peoples worship Jesus, then Jesus is the God, or so.. If i debate with you, I’ll tell you these 2 verses say unequivocally, but Christians understood the other way around. Why?

    It is quite simple.

    1) Jesus says worship only God.
    2) Jesus lets people worship Jesus.
    3) Jesus is supposed to be a holy and righteous prophet of God.

    As you can see, these three statements cannot all be true, unless Jesus is God. Do I make sense?

    If Jesus is not God, then statement 3 is false – something which goes against Christian and even Muslim belief. Correct?

    Well.. from my leisure reading on internet, only John Jilchrist answered and catered Deedat in a more convincing fashion. Shorrosh, Mc Dowell, Sjorberg, Jimmy Swaggard ans many more failed miserably (NOT me who said that..pls read Wikipedia “Jimmy Swaggard” – read what is written (commentary) at the bottom there – a comment by famous priest,, he said Swaggard fell flat. NOT jut me said so, Christian themselves. Read it youirself Brthr Thong. That’s why I told you dont miss any part of those debatetapes

    Well, you are right – I need to listen to or read the debates for myself and decide, for myself. That would be much better than relying on the opinions of others, whom may not necessarily be correct.

    After all, the Pope is the highest authority on Christianity to Roman Catholics, but I don’t agree with what he says. Neither would I automatically agree with what Jimmy Swaggart, Josh McDowell or Rick Warren say.

    And yes, while the Deedat may have won some of his debates, that does not mean everything he says is true. As I have demonstrated, even I can counter some of the points he raised, while ‘professionals’ failed to. Of course, I have the advantage of time and the Internet while they were taken by surprise…

  89. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Dear Brothr. Thong,

    I must thank you for your good attitude in our discussion here. I guess you are a good man of certain calibre and personality of your own. Sometimes we tend to be emotional or somehow ‘egocentric ‘ and thus we cannot see things as it supposed to be, because we allowed or feeling to influence us. But that doesn’t seem to be the case with you. Good.

    Not my intention to ‘proselytize’ Islam to a learned Christian like you (frankly) but purely to exchange views base on facts around us. Furthermore we Muslim believe all three scriptures are from the same sources i.e God Almighty. Quran mentioned many times about this.

    Now let us see more clearly. Among other things, you said my arguments were starange because Quran also somehow related ‘pornography’ or indecencies. Have you read Quran before?

    Pls don’t ‘similarize’ or equate Bible and Quran. With regard to the so-called indecency’ passages, what Quran says is this: ” Never nearing yourself to zina (adultery)..it is a great sin and damned”. You will not find many word zina in the Quran but a few only.

    Think of this simple analogy:

    One man came. He cited and described in great detail of sex acts – all of those heinous incests, committing at the road side, involved a ‘noble’ man (not to mention if it a ‘prophet’ or so).. then he goes.

    Came another man. He tells “Don’t you all involve in illicit intercourse acts, it is agreat sin.

    Then I asked you the witness: “What they told you ?” You said: “Those two guys were all bad men, talking nothing but sex”.

    Is it fair or true, you call it strange and generalise to be the same between the two ? Please.. NOT the same. One man came, no condemnation nor condone (but it seemed like to condone, compromise). The othe man warned and condemned. WE sholuldn’t fail to see this clearly opposite character.
    If we set our mind early and not willing to see, then how can we see anything properly?

    I never blame the Bible becuse it is definitely from Allah for peoples of Jesus times (Moses for peoples of his times), Aron, Noah, Solomon, Isaac appealed to their respective peoples Muslim believe). But the blame is on scribes, historian, apostles, deciples may Paul or else I dont know. Damned on their irresponsible hands ! They included such indecencies passages in great length in the Holy Bible. We Muslims do not meddle in quarell about authenticity of the 7 apocryphals ‘bibles’ but you Christian branches – Protestant and Catholic. VERY CLEAR to me, the existence of those 7 extra books is very evidence of corruption, interpolation. If doubts do not arised, that issue is non issue. But it is there ! Who wrote those books ? Irresposible hand of scribes ? Doesn’t it a great doubt..to the extent that Protestant rejected them ? O my God..

  90. Scott Thong Says:

    Is it fair or true, you call it strange and generalise to be the same between the two ? Please.. NOT the same. One man came, no condemnation nor condone (but it seemed like to condone, compromise). The othe man warned and condemned. WE sholuldn’t fail to see this clearly opposite character.

    You are implying that the Bible seems to condone ‘pornography’ or other immoral acts? I will have to ask you to provide citations of such a thing, and why you say the Bible ‘condones’ it.

    Just because the Bible records something, does not mean it condones it. Just because it does not mention a condemnation after every verse, doesn’t mean something has suddenly become permitted.

    The Bible already lays out what is and is not permitted in the Laws of Moses – why do some people insist that it has to repeat itself when later describing the idol worship of the Canaanites, the arrogance of the Persians, the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, the sinful acts of the false Christians, or even the evil plans of the devil?

    Let me ask you: Does the Quran repeat a condemnation every time it mentions Iblis/Shaitan?

    The devil whispered to them, in order to reveal their bodies, which were invisible to them. He said, “Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree, except to prevent you from becoming angels, and from attaining eternal existence.” He swore to them, “I am giving you good advice.” He thus duped them with lies. As soon as they tasted the tree, their bodies became visible to them, and they tried to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise.

    Their Lord called upon them: “Did I not enjoin you from that tree, and warn you that the devil is your most ardent enemy?” They said, “Our Lord, we have wronged our souls, and unless You forgive us and have mercy on us, we will be losers.” He said, “Go down as enemies of one another. On earth shall be your habitation and provision for awhile.” He said, “On it you will live, on it you will die, and from it you will be brought out.” – Sura 7:20-25

    Oh look! The devil tempted and lied to Adam and his wife. Allah punishes them for their sin. But Allah does not punish the devil! Does this mean that the Quran condones the devil’s actions?

    Since the Quran obviously doesn’t always condemn the devil every single time he is mentioned, does this therefore mean that the Quran condones the devil and all his evil deeds and plans?

    If you think this sounds like complete and totally unfair nonsense, then imagine what your accusation of the Bible sounds like to a Christian. Apply your own standards.

    ————————————

    If we set our mind early and not willing to see, then how can we see anything properly?

    I could quote the same thing to you, Nasaei. See my comment which follows this one for what I mean.

    ————————————

    Muslims do not meddle in quarell about authenticity of the 7 apocryphals ‘bibles’ but you Christian branches – Protestant and Catholic. VERY CLEAR to me, the existence of those 7 extra books is very evidence of corruption, interpolation. If doubts do not arised, that issue is non issue. But it is there ! Who wrote those books ? Irresposible hand of scribes ? Doesn’t it a great doubt..to the extent that Protestant rejected them ? O my God..

    First off, be careful not to use the name of God in vain!

    Now then… You say that just because the Roman Catholics include the Apocrypha in the Bible, you conclude that it is evidence of corruption?

    It is only true for the Roman Catholics, as no one major Christian branch accepts that those books are the authentic word of God. And the reason for the rejection of those extra books is based on their content, what era the earliest copies are from, and the testimony of Jesus and the pre-Catholic church.

    In fact, even the Roman Catholics do not consider the Apocrypha to be on par with the rest of the Bible! They merely recommend those books to be useful for knowledge and teaching.

    So your assumption is based on faulty information.

    Besides, you ask “Who wrote those books ? Irresposible hand of scribes ?”. Well, I will tell you who wrote one of the non-accepted apocryphal books, The Gospel of Barnabas.

    It was most likely a Muslim.

    Evidence off this:

    – mentions Muhammad by name
    – includes the shahadah
    – Jesus is described as a prophet and not the son of God
    – Paul is called “the deceived” (weren’t you just saying something like this above?)
    – Jesus escaped crucifixion by being raised alive to heaven
    – Judas Iscariot the traitor was crucified in Jesus’ place

    So what was a Muslim doing adding corruption to the word of God, the holy Bible?

    And no, it is not a legitimate Gospel because the earliest copies are in Italian and Spanish from the 16th century (instead of Greek from much earlier periods), and because of many clear mistakes that a real apostle living in Jesus’ time and country would have known.

  91. Scott Thong Says:

    Nasaei, I have noticed three things. I shall begin with the first:

    ———————-

    1) Your mentioning that the Bible ‘contains pornography’ just made me remember where I had heard this allegation before… Did you happen to pick up on this idea from Ahmad Deedat? Since you obviously have seen many of his debates.

    I have heard the accusation of ‘pornography in the Bible’ from this web page:

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Deedat/combatkit_letter.htm

    Dear Mr. Deedat, 25 November 1993

    A year ago you wrote a booklet called “Combat Kit” in which you accused the Bible of containing vulgarities. Unfortunately you have stooped very low in the way you have ridiculed the Bible. I dare say, if we tried to ridicule your Qur’an, taking its statements out of context, like you are doing with our Bible, you would be outraged.

    We would like you to read our response to your arguments. If you plan to continue printing and using such biased and false criticisms, we expect you to give a written defence of your position in light of the specific points we have made below.

    The rebuttal to Ahmad Deedat’s claims in ‘Combat Kit’ are at http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Deedat/combatkit.html , maybe this will adress your idea that the Bible contains ‘pornography’?

    I) In 2 Kings 18:27 the Bible makes reference to eating filth and drinking urine. Deedat takes offense at the mere mention of such words in a Holy Book, and then, without giving any consideration to who has said them, calls it an “absurdity”.

    This statement is not made by God nor is it an instruction given by God. Rather, it is part of an historical account recording the words of the commander of the Assyrian army who was an-idol worshipper and an enemy of the Jews who worshipped the One true God.

    II) Ezekiel 4:9-17 mentions how the prophet Ezekiel was instructed to eat cake baked on a fire made from human dung. Deedat ridicules this and misconstrues it, saying that Ezekiel is instructed “to eat cake with shit”. Deedat is obviously taking it to mean that the dung is to be eaten along with the cake.

    What the Bible actually says, however, is that God instructed Ezekiel to bake the cake using human excrement, not as an ingredient of the cake, but as fuel for the fire.

    The Bible says the cake was to be cooked “on” or “over” the dung. The Hebrew word ‘al corresponding to “on” or “over” does not mean “with” as Deedat alleges. Any Hebrew lexicon or concordance will show this. Therefore, the cake that Ezekiel was to eat was not meant to be eaten along with the dung. Rather, the dung was the means, the fuel, for baking the cake.

    Much of the material in the “Combat Kit” is like the above taken out of context, and everyone can answer it for himself by just reading the chapter the reference if found in.

    Again, as I have mentioned earlier, Ahmad Deedat has repeatedly shown that he is either ignorant, dishonest or both when it comes to understanding the Bible. That is why I place little weight in any claim made by Deedat, including when he allegedly wins in a debate over poorly prepared opponents.

    —————–

    By the way, do you know what Ahmad Deedat has been doing more recently? Because, I got these links through a site detailing the circumstances of Ahmad Deedat’s death:

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Deedat/downfall.htm

    Many readers have been asking whether Ahmed Deedat, the Muslim debater, is still alive. As of this writing (July 2005) he is alive, but he cannot speak and he is completely paralysed. In fact, Deedat has been in this condition since he suffered a rare kind of stroke nine years ago.

    Few people outside his home city of Durban are aware of this, and even fewer, know the sequence of events leading to this tragedy.

    Four weeks before Deedat was stricken he attacked the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ in front of a large audience in Australia.

    The publication of Deedat’s book “Combat Kit” (1992) marked the beginning of the end. This vicious and ridiculing attack on the Bible set in motion events which proved to be Deedat’s undoing.

    During the next year a small group of Christians prayed about these provocations. Finally I wrote Mr. Deedat a personal letter, in which I refuted two of his most vile and vicious attacks. He did not acknowledge receiving the hand-delivered letter — much less answer it.

    In the following months a group of nearly two dozen pastors from many different churches and denominations deliberated and prayed about these mocking attacks on the Holy Bible. They decided to issue a stern public rebuke through an open letter in the Daily News of Durban. They warned him of God’s judgement because Deedat refused to retract his defamatory and unscholarly attacks against the Bible.

    God declares in his word, “Whoever stubbornly refuses to accept criticism will suddenly be broken beyond repair.” (Proverbs 29:1)

    Giving a sharp rebuke should not be misunderstood as a vengeful act. Deedat was reminded — in the open letter of rebuke — that God could forgive him if he would admit his wrong. Unfortunately, neither at that time, nor on subsequent occasions when we visited him in his paralysed condition, did he stop attacking the Bible.>

    Interestingly, he allowed me (and one of my friends) to pray for him when we visited him at his home — without any apparent healing taking place. On our next visit we followed up this unfinished matter by reminding Deedat that God’s Word says sin hinders our prayers from being answered. We read King David’s words, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear.” (Psalm 66:18) Then we reminded Deedat of the open letter of rebuke which preceded his stroke. We asked him whether he was now prepared to admit having done wrong.

    Deedat spelled out his emphatic reply, one letter at a time, “I have no guilt on my head.” (Such communiques from Deedat are obviously inaudible. He indicates his choice of individual letters by blinking his eye.) It was — and still is — our sincere prayer that Deedat would humble himself and experience God’s mercy and healing.

    Ahmad Deedat died in 2005.

  92. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks. I could comment one ‘issue’ for the time being.

    Let us think and ponder. Look carefully. “Allow me to repat and quote it again. “away from me Satan! For it is written; worship the Lord your God, and serve Him alone !”

    Why Jesus did not say : “Away from me Satan ! For it is written; worship ME your Lord, your God, and serve ME alone!”.

    Why dindnt he say that ?? I guess (I dont know, the burden of proff not on me, but on the whole world, christendom tec to answer): because..

    1) He is not God but Messiah, a great prophet who brought us revelation like Muhammad, Moses, and many more prophets of God;

    2) Because the purported “peoples worship him” passages are also ones of the many verses that corrupted, interpolated by scribes. Listen to Bart Ehrman again, to Deedat and Yusuf Estes too (a former priest).

    3) Because qiute impossible to corrupt and amend the whole Bible. Therefore the remaining intact verses/ passages definitely no in agreement, not compitable with the spoilt ones

    4) Because the difficulties on believers/ Christians, since they would believe in opposite / confused things as well (tritinity, 3 in one etc) which I strongly believe cannot be explained and understood. “inspired passages??” What inspired, who inspired, by whom?

    Ponder. When we remember Holy Ghost in our mind, at that time do we imagine God the Father ? What we have in mind? God the Son? NO. We imagine Holy Ghost. Be frank. Thus, when we imagine Jesus, at that particular time we DON’T imagine Holy Ghost or God The Father ! They are 3 DIFFERENT identitities. Then how come after these 3 images in our mind. Not 3 things superimposed together. Then how come they become ONE on the other occasion, the other moment ? If I say something is black, it must be black, not white. I simply dont understand (millions of Christians themselves DONT quite understand it actually, but BELIEVE !
    (If dont believe, you wont be saved! – By believeing something you dont really understand and UNEXPLAINABLE to your ownself, ‘you will be saved, (NO matter what you do, what you commit? No wonder prostitutes wear big cross on his neck ! I’m sory to say this Brth Thong. We see fact right in front of us. I dont think that Jesus taught us. But difficulties arised because of scribes’ bad hands. Read only the uncorrupted verses, you will not lose i guess because it in harmony with Quran and maybe old Testatament – all from the same One God. Thanks.

  93. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Sorry, alway missed a point. 5) Because Jesus NEVER lie, but scribes did. Paul and Peter were ordinary men like us. Others who lived after them ?
    No guarantee to safeguard. Not at all.

  94. Scott Thong Says:

    Why Jesus did not say : “Away from me Satan ! For it is written; worship ME your Lord, your God, and serve ME alone!”.

    Why dindnt he say that ??

    Jesus didn’t say that, because every suggestion the devil gave Him, He responded to by directly quoting the Bible.

    Observe:

    The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
    Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'”
    (Quoted Deuteronomy 8:3)

    “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
    ” ‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'”
    Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'”
    (Quoted Deuteronomy 6:16)

    Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
    Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'”
    (Quoted Deuteronomy 6:13)

    Very many times, Jesus quoted the Old Testament directly. Often, it was to bring up passages referring to the attributes of Messiah.

    —————————-

    2) Because the purported “peoples worship him” passages are also ones of the many verses that corrupted, interpolated by scribes. Listen to Bart Ehrman again, to Deedat and Yusuf Estes too (a former priest).

    3) Because qiute impossible to corrupt and amend the whole Bible. Therefore the remaining intact verses/ passages definitely no in agreement, not compitable with the spoilt ones

    By your reasoning, wouldn’t it have been easier to change Jesus’ words to “Away from me Satan ! For it is written; worship ME your Lord, your God, and serve ME alone!”?

    Why didn’t the Christians do that, and also make Jesus say directly “I am God, worship Me”? Instead of ‘hiding’ references to Jesus = God in less obvious places?

    —————————-

    4) Because the difficulties on believers/ Christians, since they would believe in opposite / confused things as well (tritinity, 3 in one etc) which I strongly believe cannot be explained and understood. “inspired passages??” What inspired, who inspired, by whom?

    We Christians come to the opposite conclusion as you.

    Since the doctrine of the Trinity is so complex, confusing, apparently contradictory and easily critisized, why is it even included in Christian belief? Why do Christians hold firm to such a strange idea? Wouldn’t it be easier and better to just discard the whole notion?

    The reason we do not deny the Trinity is simply because that is what the Bible says. If Christianity were a fake religion, based on lies, or ‘corrupted’, then why would the early Christians (the fakers and corrupters) have introduced such crazy doctrine that makes new believers apprehensive?

    ———————————–

    Ponder. When we remember Holy Ghost in our mind, at that time do we imagine God the Father ? What we have in mind? God the Son? NO. We imagine Holy Ghost. Be frank. Thus, when we imagine Jesus, at that particular time we DON’T imagine Holy Ghost or God The Father ! They are 3 DIFFERENT identitities.

    You are correct: All three are different and individual identities. However, they are also one and the same person.

    The Trinity is the only logical conclusion to the following facts in the Bible:

    1) The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God and are all worshiped. (This causes some to believe that all three are one person with NO DISCTINCTION. But this cannot explain number 2.)

    2) The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct entities, such as when Jesus prays to the Father and promises to send the Holy Spirit. (This causes some to believe that all three are separate with no shared person. But this cannot explain number 1.)

    The only way to reconcile these two facts is if The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three, yet one. This may not seem to make sense, but it is not impossible either. I shall explain why not below…

    ——————————

    Then how come after these 3 images in our mind. Not 3 things superimposed together. Then how come they become ONE on the other occasion, the other moment ? If I say something is black, it must be black, not white. I simply dont understand (millions of Christians themselves DONT quite understand it actually, but BELIEVE !

    You of course think that 3 cannot be 1, and black cannot be white etc.

    But did you realize that in OUR OWN PHYSICAL WORLD, there are many examples of 3 = 1?

    For example, take the physical quantity of SPACE.

    SPACE is height, width and depth. That is, x-axis, y-axis and z-axis on a graph.

    Now then fellow learners, follow these 4 points…

    1. What is Height? (Answer: It is space.)

    2. What is Width? (Answer: It is also space.)

    3. What is Depth? (Answer: It is space too! Wow!)

    4. What is SPACE? (Answer: Space is not just Height. Space is not just Width. Space is not just Depth. Space is ALL THREE TOGETHER – Height, Width and Depth.)

    Now let’s use that example with the Holy Trinity.

    1. Who is the Father? (Answer: He is God.)

    2. Who is Jesus the Son? (Answer: He is also God.)

    3. Who is the Holy Spirit? (Answer: He is God too! Wow!)

    4. Who is GOD? (Answer: God is not just the Father. God is not just the Son. God is not just the Holy Spirit. God is ALL THREE TOGETHER – Father, Son and Holy Spirit.)

    For another example, scientists who deal with chemistry all accept the fact of ‘chemical resonance’.

    Basically, for a single carbonate ion (CO³-), it should have three different structures, and keep changing between these structures. In each of these structures, there should be one link (double bond) that is shorter than the other two links (single bond each).

    http://scottthong.files.wordpress.com/2006/07/resonance_1.gif

    However, through experimentation, it is found that there is only one structure, with all three links being the same length!

    http://scottthong.files.wordpress.com/2006/07/resonance_2.gif

    The conclusion? The carbonate ion exists as ALL THREE forms simultaneously. It does not keep switching – it is all three forms at the same time, all the time! Even a single, solitary carbonate ion exists as three forms all the time!

    A full explanation with images and many more examples of ‘trinity’ in everyday life can be found on my post here.

    This is not made up – it is what is taught in university level chemistry. I know, as I took the course. I was surprised by this chapter in the chemistry textbook, but then realized that it is an excellent demonstration of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

    Even scientists can believe in 3 = 1. And why not? God invented the universe, so why should not the universe’s laws follow His example?

    As for ‘understanding’… Can you understand how Allah existed before any of creation? Where did Allah come from? Did Allah create Allah? Or did Allah always exist – if so, where did Allah come from?

    As you can see, you cannot understand or even begin to comprehend something so far beyond the human mind’s capability. Yet, you believe!

    Am I so different?

    Remember, apply your own standards!

    ———————————-

    Read only the uncorrupted verses, you will not lose i guess because it in harmony with Quran and maybe old Testatament – all from the same One God. Thanks.

    I am sorry to say, Nasaei, that much of what the Quran states is very different from what the Old Testament states. Too much, in fact.

    Consider just the following:

    At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: “O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

    O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!” Sura 19:27-28

    Reading the rest of this passage, it is clear that the woman is Mary, the mother of Jesus. Yet, the Quran also calls her the sister of Aaron, whose name is actually Miriam.

    To any reader of the Bible, this is a clear mistake. Mary the mother of Jesus lived around 1400 years AFTER Miriam, Aaron and Moses had died!

    When we use the Arabic/Islamic names, the reason for the mix-up becomes clear: Mary is Mariyam in Arabic. This is very easy to mix up with Miriam.

    Hence, it seems that Mohammad was confused about Mariyam vs Miriam, and thus said something very silly. Anyone who knows the Bible, or even shallowly knows the more popular stories, would know the difference between Moses’ setting and Jesus’ setting. No wonder the Jews who were listening to him refused to accept his status of prophethood?

    So not only does the Quran contradict what the Bible states, it also appears to have a very careless mistake!

    What is your explanation for the above?

    ————————–

    (If dont believe, you wont be saved! – By believeing something you dont really understand and UNEXPLAINABLE to your ownself, ‘you will be saved, (NO matter what you do, what you commit? No wonder prostitutes wear big cross on his neck !

    Nasaei, I am ashamed that you have resorted to such a cheap insult tactic. What does the actions of a hypocrite and a false religious person have to do with what the religion itself teaches?

    Do you wish me to cite the many terrorist groups who shout “Allahu akhbar!” while cutting off the heads of women and bombing fellow Muslims in the markets?

    Do you wish me to cite today’s news report of ‘Ustaz ditangkap memiliki dadah dan VCD lucah’?

    Are these kind of people ‘proof’ that Islam and the Quran teach misguided, immoral and inhumane things?

    Remember, apply your own standards!

    ——————————-

    But difficulties arised because of scribes’ bad hands.

    Again with this idea.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls copy of Isaiah is exactly the same as the modern Bible’s version of Isaiah, word for word.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls copy of Isaiah has been dated to 300 BC by secular scientists.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls copy of Isaiah contains the passage that says the Messiah will a son who is also God:

    “For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” – Isaiah 6:6

    That is 300 years before Jesus, 900 years before Mohammad, and 2300 years before today. The Dead Sea Scrolls copy of Isaiah was hidden away in a cave and was not discovered until the 1940s. Yet it has the same contents as the copies of Isaiah in Hebrew in Israel, in Greek in the Septuagint in Europe, etc.

    Tell me when the ‘scribes’ bad hands’ could have altered ALL of these copies in many different hidden places at the same time.

    That would be a BIGGER miracle than Moses parting the sea.

  95. Scott Thong Says:

    Sorry, alway missed a point. 5) Because Jesus NEVER lie, but scribes did. Paul and Peter were ordinary men like us. Others who lived after them ?
    No guarantee to safeguard. Not at all.

    So the thousands of temple scribes in Israel over the centuries, all the Apostles, and all the archaeologists and scholars and researchers and people preparing new translations of the Bible…

    Digging through more than 24,000 ancient manuscripts, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Vulgate, the Septuagint, the Codex Vaticanus, the Codex Sinaiticus, the Masorectic text…

    In dozens of languages of translations such as Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, Syriac, Arabic…

    Across three continents being Asia, Africa and Europe…

    Between many rival churches such as the Roman Catholic, the Eastern Orthodox, the Protestants, the Baptists, the Brethren and also with regard to the Jews…

    And even the Gnostics who collected the Scriptures but were considered heretics and thus stayed away from the Christians…

    Had no guarantee to safeguard to accuracy and legitimacy of the Bible text?

    Meanwhile, ONE caliph Uthman and his FOUR followers, working with just a few dozen or hundred oral reciters and manuscripts, in only Arabic, in only the Mecca/Medina area, under one rulership, and burning all other copies that they disagreed with so we can’t even look at and compare them…

    Does guarantee to safeguard to accuracy and legitimacy of the Quran text?

    Compared to the Quran, the Bible’s scriptures had more people it was entrusted to, more manuscript copies, more different languages used, more area where it was distributed, and more difficulties in getting all Christians of all sects to work together. All this means it would be hundreds of times more difficult to make a mistake, intentionally change or purposely ‘corrupt’ the Bible’s text than the Quran’s text.

    Yet as you claim, ‘the Bible is corrupted but the Quran is the same as the original!’

    Am I the only one who sees the double standard here?

    Remember, apply your own standards!

  96. Scott Thong Says:

    Again and again and again, you mention that the Bible has been corrupted – not by Jesus, but perhaps by scribes or even the apostles. That brings me to the second realization as I mentioned earlier.

    2) Where do you get the idea that the Bible is corrupted? From men, or from the Quran?

    Because, as I have learnt from this site, the Quran does not actually say that the Bible has been corrupted by Jews and Christians:

    ————

    Does the Qur’an teach that it abrogates the Jewish and Christian scripture? Some may point to 2:106 to say it does.

    None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar (2:106, AYA)

    However, it is unlikely that this verse is referring to the Christian and Jewish scripture, for just five verses after 2:106 the Qur’an asks Christians and Jews to bring your proof (2:111) from their scriptures.

    This would be an irrelevant and contradictory command if it had just taught that their scripture was abrogated.

    In fact, just thirty verses after 2:106 the Qur’an says that it makes no distinction between (2:136) itself and any of the former scripture.

    Al-Bukhari records that 2:106 refers to abrogation within the Qur’an itself:

    Narrated Ibn Abbas: Umar said, “Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an) yet we leave (out) some of what he recites”. Ubai says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever”. But Allah said: “None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar” (Qur’an 2:106). (Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 527, p. 489; book 61)

    Sura 16:101 also shows that this abrogation has to do with the content of the Qur’an and not the scripture of the Jews and Christians.

    And when We exchange a verse in the place of another verse – and God knows very well what he is sending down – they say (to Muhammad), “Thou art a mere forger!” (16:101, Arberry)

    The Qur’an encourages Jews to judge by the Torah:

    How come they (come) unto thee (Muhammad) for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? (5:43, MP)

    And the Qur’an urges Christians to judge by the Gospel:

    Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (5:47, MP)

    Again, we see that the Qur’an refers to the scriptures of the Christians and Jews as God’s reliable word. Jews and Christians are commanded to consult their scriptures when desiring to know God’s will.

    The Qur’an therefore considers these scriptures to be reliable. Surah 5:43-48 also shows that the Qur’an is not claiming to abrogate (replace) the Gospel and Torah but is a parallel revelation to them.

    Also, the former scriptures of the Jews and Christians are appealed to to prove that Muhammad is an authentic prophet.

    Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them (7:157 MP).

    They say: “If only he would bring us a miracle from his Lord!” Hath there not come unto them the proof of what is in the former scriptures? (20:133 MP).

    And lo, it is in the scriptures from the men of old. Is it not a token for them that the (religious) doctors of the Children of Israel know it? (26:196-197 MP).

    How can these scriptures be appealed to, to prove Muhammad is genuine, if they have been corrupted? The Qur’an must view these scriptures as reliable to make such a request.

  97. Scott Thong Says:

    I will be away from the computer for a few days. So, I won’t be able to respond to any of your comments or questions.

    Until I return, why don’t you instead take the time to read my previous remarks and answers (today’s ones are very long), and perhaps try and give your explanation for some of the issues I raised – such as the Miriam/Mariyam confusion?

    Until then, here is the third thing I noticed as I promised.

    ———————————–

    3) Many of your objections to Christian beliefs come from an Islamic viewpoint, one that is based on the Quran which you take as the word of Allah.

    For example, firmly stating that God cannot come in the form of anything in Creation, or that the Bible has been corrupted. Both are stated in the Quran.

    However, while Islam regards the Bible as Allah’s earlier word but ‘corrupted by Jews and Christians’ and regards Jesus as an earlier prophet but not God or the Son of God, Christianity does not regard the Quran as God’s word nor does it regard Mohammad as a legitimate prophet of God.

    This is not to insult or belittle Islam, the Quran or Mohammad. I am merely stating the standard Christian beliefs and doctrines.

    ON PROPHETS:

    The Bible warns that after Jesus ascended to heaven, false prophets would come.

    At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people… – Jesus in Matthew 24:10-11

    The way to recognize them is:

    Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. – 1 John 2:22

    It is put there plain and simple: If anyone denies that Jesus is the Messiah (and ruler over all creation) and the Father and the Son, he is a liar.

    By the way, it is relevant that ‘anti-Christ’ means ‘replacement of Christ’. Jesus’ claim of salvation through faith in Him alone was replaced by Mohammad’s claim of salvation through adherence to Allah’s laws as laid out in the Quran.

    Other requirements as stated in the Bible include: The prophet cannot contradict Moses’ laws; must act in a moral, righteous and holy manner; his prophecies must come true; and he must show good deeds (bear good fruit).

    Without going into detail, Mohammad fails all some of these criteria to varying extents.

    Also, although Mohammad manages to pass this one:

    This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. – 1st John 4:2-3

    —————————

    ON GOD’S WORD:

    All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness… – 2nd Timothy 3:14

    I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. – Revelation 22:18-19

    This passage is taken to mean that after Revelation (the last book in the Bible), no further additions, claims or writings are considered God’s word.

    —————————

    Thus, simply put, objections to Christian views of God, Jesus, the Bible, etc. based solely on Islamic views are not valid from a Christian viewpoint.

    A Muslim would say that so-and-so claim must be true, because the Quran says so and the Quran is Allah’s word. But you must understand that Christians cannot accept that argument by itself, as we do not consider the Quran to be God’s word.

    (Indeed, try and argue with an atheist using that method, and I can guarantee he will start mocking and ridiculing.)

    To put it into perspective, imagine if a Christian came and objected to Islamic beliefs because “Mohammad is a false prophet and the Quran is false because it denies Jesus as God. This is true, because the Bible says so, and the Bible as the word of God is true!”

    Hence, I have been answering your questions and objections (that come from an Islamic basis) by giving the Christian stand.

  98. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Pls be fair, I never said Bible condone immoralities but it doen not seemed to condemn or condone either. What is that after all? That why all I can say is it seemed to condone (since it doesn’t condemn in a firm or steadfast manner).

    About the ‘double standard’, I didnt think so. As far as Quran is concerned (sincerely) the chance for corruptin is very slim. God say He is the protector of Quran, not man. Explaining to non Muslims is difficult, perhaps 10 or 20 pages. Still, they will not believe. The beauty of Quran also difficult part. Allah says He sealed the hearts of anybody (whoever) he wishes (for being unbelivers); in such a circumstance,they cannot see sincerely, cannot easily be understood by them.

    I remember one hadis narration, when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) asked one of his companion (Saad Ibn Waqaf) to go to China to spread Islam and meet the Chinese Empror, he immediately excited and happy to go.
    No aircraft, no automatic weapon, no car. BUt must go thru land routes, prabably thru’ rough and mountaneous Khyber Pass. Imagine wild animal, possible starvation, enemies such as tribal attacks etc. Not like asking our friend to go to KL from Ipoh like today, but go to a foreign country thousand of miles away. I believe their iman (conviction of believe) is very strong, to the extent that they were willing to die in battale. Only 2 men out of about 14 men, reached China. The rest died on the way. So, to hope this kind of peoles to corrupt Quran is slim. Furthermore, many companions were ‘hafiz’. As a result of his sincere efforts, today, there are more Muslims in China than in Malaysia!

  99. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Your cut and pasted Quotation above reads: “God is not just the Son. God is not just the Holy Spirit. God is ALL THREE TOGETHER, Father, Son and Holy Spirit”. This is very typical Christian explanation.

    Since I am non Christian, I would certainly ask for more understanding about what it is all about. Applying the concept, we say Jesus is ‘Son of God’ to mean Jesus; and we also say “God the Father” for God Almighty, (besides “God the Son?”). Jesus is the son; son of whom, son of himself?.. since he is also ‘God’. And ‘father’ of whom ? It doesn’t make sense at all.

    I know that was a very simple question frequently asked by..maybe kids. But I dont think many peoples understood it. My mind is wandering.

    The response maybe.. “no, no, Jesus is “SON” not ‘father’. May I quote again Dr. Anis Shorrosh. In his book entitled Liberal Christian, he said (more or less) that he was so grateful that GOD (in reference to Jesus) did a very noble thing and sacrificed his life for mankind and him (Shorrosh). Every wonder – God DIED? Pls see again the debate tape (Youtube) between him and Deedat. I dont lie.

  100. Scott Thong Says:

    I will compare your remarks about the Quran with what the Bible says about itself. You see if you are using the same measuring rod for both.

    About the ‘double standard’, I didnt think so. As far as Quran is concerned (sincerely) the chance for corruptin is very slim. God say He is the protector of Quran, not man.

    All Scripture is God-breathed – 2 Timothy 3:16

    “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.” – Matthew 5:18

    “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” – Matthew 24:35

    Just as the Quran says that Allah protects the Quran, the Bible says that YHWH protects the Bible.

    Allah says He sealed the hearts of anybody (whoever) he wishes (for being unbelivers); in such a circumstance,they cannot see sincerely, cannot easily be understood by them.

    He said, “Go and tell this people: ” ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
    Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes.
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” – Isaiah 6:9-10

    Just as the Quran says that Allah seals up the hearts of unbelievers so that they cannot comprehend, the Bible says that YHWH closes the hearts, eyes and ears of the stubborn and proud so that they refuse to comprehend.

    I remember one hadis narration, when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) asked one of his companion (Saad Ibn Waqaf) to go to China to spread Islam and meet the Chinese Empror, he immediately excited and happy to go.
    No aircraft, no automatic weapon, no car. BUt must go thru land routes, prabably thru’ rough and mountaneous Khyber Pass. Imagine wild animal, possible starvation, enemies such as tribal attacks etc. Not like asking our friend to go to KL from Ipoh like today, but go to a foreign country thousand of miles away. I believe their iman (conviction of believe) is very strong, to the extent that they were willing to die in battale. Only 2 men out of about 14 men, reached China. The rest died on the way. So, to hope this kind of peoles to corrupt Quran is slim. Furthermore, many companions were ‘hafiz’. As a result of his sincere efforts, today, there are more Muslims in China than in Malaysia!

    By that same notion, every single one of the original 12 apostles of Jesus (minus John who died in exile, minus Judas, but plus Paul) died a painful death, usually through torture, because they refused to stop believing in Jesus Christ and traveled to hostile societies in Rome, Syria, Africa, Turkey and more to preach the Gospel.

    So by your same standard, this would prove that So, to hope this kind of peoles to corrupt Quran Bible is slim. Does it not?

    And there are also huge numbers of Christians in China (at least as many as Muslims), which happens to have the fastest growing Christian percentage currently. What’s more, they practise their faith under strict persecution by the authorities, making them truer Christians than in most Western nations where their faith has degraded due to easy lives, secularism and moral corruption.

    ————————————

    Applying the concept, we say Jesus is ‘Son of God’ to mean Jesus; and we also say “God the Father” for God Almighty, (besides “God the Son?”). Jesus is the son; son of whom, son of himself?.. since he is also ‘God’. And ‘father’ of whom ? It doesn’t make sense at all.

    Perhaps it would be better if you tried taking it the other way around.

    Right now, you are basing your understanding of the attributes of God on your understanding of human relationships. This is actually backwards!

    God did not base His own Father-Son relationship on human family – since God came first and ‘made man in His image’, it is actually human family that is based on God’s Father-Son characteristic! So why can’t God do whatever He pleases? Does God have to conform to your human expectations?

    Another way you could look at it is this – The Quran says that ‘Allah does not have a son':

    Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him (far exalted is He) above having a son – Sura 4:17

    It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him when He determines a matter, He only says to it ‘Be,’ and it is. – Sura 19:35

    However, did you know the difference between the two Arabic words for son, walad and ibn?

    Walad means a son from sexual union. Whereas, ibn means son in a wider sense, the person who inherits the family name.

    So let’s look at those two verses of the Quran again:

    Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him (far exalted is He) above having a son (walad) – Sura 4:17

    It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son (walad). Glory be to Him when He determines a matter, He only says to it ‘Be,’ and it is. – Sura 19:35

    As you can see, the Quran specifically uses walad and not ibn. It is saying that Allah cannot have a son through sex.

    So to return to your remark, maybe God cannot have a son through sexual intercourse, since there is no ‘Mother in heaven’. But why cannot God ‘adopt’ someone as His son, in the legal or family relationship sense? Even the Quran does not state that ‘Allah does not have ibn’.

    http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/02/25/walad-and-ibn-christianity-agrees-with-islam-god-did-not-have-a-son-sexually/

    In conclusion, yes, it is quite hard to imagine how 3 = 1 can possibly work out. But as I have said before, whether or not we think it is impossible does not matter! I have already shown how in real life, 3 = 1 is accepted in physics and chemistry.

    I have also compared with other ‘impossible’ notions that even Muslims accept, such as “Where did Allah come from, who created Allah, how could Allah create Allah?”.

    And I have said that what God can (or ‘should’) do should not be dictated by what we mere humans decide.

    You keep saying that my explanations and views are typically Christian. But at the same time, do realize that yours are typically Muslim.

  101. Scott Thong Says:

    Nasaei, I’d like to ask you what you think of the secular view of Mohammad and Islam, and what rebuttal you have that would silence an atheist critic who raises these points:

    1) Whether sincerely believing he was called by god or not, Mohammad invented Islam as a sociopolitical tool, using religion as a claim of legitimacy to unite the Arab tribes under his leadership.

    2) He based Islamic teachings and the Quran on Jewish/Christian teachings and the Bible, which already existed in the area he lived in.

    3) To solidify his credentials, he attempted to win the approval and support of the Jews and Christians, claiming himself to be the last prophet of their god. This is the period that led to the Suras speaking of friendship with the People of the Book.

    4) His lack of familiarity with the Jewish/Christian teachings and the Bible caused the Jews and Christians to reject his claim of prophethood. This led him to become antagonistic against them, and is the period that led to the Suras speaking poorly of the People of the Book:

    O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. – Sura 5:51

    “May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of the prophets.” – Hadith Bukhari, Vol. 1, #427

    5) Support for these claims can be seen from his behaviour and actions as recorded in the various hadiths.

    Please note that this is not what I am claiming, but merely what secular researchers and scholars claim, as they do not believe in anything supernatural and therefore attribute all actions to purely human motives.

    I do not intend to provoke or insult your beliefs any more than you intend to provoke and insult mine, and am merely interested in discussion as you are.

    If you will notice, this ‘conspiracy theory of Islam’ is very similar in its construction as the various ‘conspiracy theories of Christianity’, in that a popular leader founds a religious movement that is used to gain power and control, and the historical truth is later covered up with lies . In fact, I believe you have quoted some of this before.

  102. Test Says:

    is a view somewhat different to reality,
    but it made me think. thanks.

  103. Scott Thong Says:

    From Nasaei Ahmad:

    Sorry Brth Thong if I’m using the wrong thread/ link. I’m not good at computer or blog. I couldnt get back to our previous communications. I believe because my yahoo email account has a problem (recently it reminded users to re-register – may be because of this).

    The issue of burning of earlier Quran verses and its compilation by Caliph Uthman is not an issue at all to Muslims. Generally (and of majority) we Muslims do not have any ill-faith in it, really. But you quoted that sahih (authentic) Bukhari hadith a number of times to raise doubt (to your doubtful self).

    Burning of the written Quran (parts/ books) happened till today. If you go to Quran printers, you will know what they do with the spoilt parts – they burn it. At Muslims’ homes, if a ‘mushaf’ (any written Quranic verses of any forms) is incomplete, lost it portions due to wear and tear, we burn it anytime. Because if we keep them, it might be loosen or scattered even in unclean places. This prohibited. It cannot be stepped over also. like a “taboo” more or less.

    If I ask you, WHY UTHMAN ASKED CERTAIN ‘VERSIONs’ of the earlier Quran to be burned, maybe you dont have the answer. (Note: Not like Bible, literally Quran has only one ‘version’ but earlier ones had no reading signs (kasra, fatha, tanween) like today’s copies. Without these reading signs, very difficult for non-Quraish/non Arab to read correctly because it was a plain letters/ characters. In Arabic for example, “jamaal means beutiful (e.g for woman name), but “jamal” means camel. It is spelt exactly the same number of letter. So Uthman wanted it to be uniform. As the “forgortten” left verses by Zaid etc.. I don’t know. All muslim believe is, as Quran itself tells, Allah is the sole protecter that preserve Quran, not Uthman, Zaid etc. You must know for sure why Uthman burned them, not just cut and paste that Bukhari works.

    To compare with the Bible, as I said before, not need for me to suplly to you the contradictions, its hanky panky, status etc. Just type on your internet, you’ll find hundreds of them. Never been reconciled. The whole world knows. It not a heresays or else. It is fact. Perhaps you also know what William Campbell said about it ? “The most confused book ever printed in the world”. Not Bart Ehrman alone. Sir William Muir said more or less the same. Christian themselves said that, NOT Muslims!

    Allah says in Quran no ones capable of creating another Quran, not even its surah or numbers of verses. Millions of Christian Arabs whose mother toungue is Arabic failed to create one – for 1400 yrs. No one capable. Because it is protected and preserved by Allah God Almighty. Read what Andrew Rippin (a professor and scholar said- he said no one capable, impossible to produce such a kind). You can say this ” Errr.. no one also capable of creating Bible as well..!” or else… I say this: The BIbile at hand is already been imitated, corrupted but you keep going, keep believing in it. It riddled with many interpolations, but you keep believeing it. SINCERELY Brthr. I think it is worth pondering because it is facts known worldwide. When I said it contain indecencies/ pornography that immposible to be intact, impossible to be word of God.. then you returned to me by saying Quran is also the same ! HAVE YOU READ QURAN before ? Before you say that (the same) ? Because of little knowledge about Quran, you missed the target, hit the wrong tree.

  104. Scott Thong Says:

    Burning of the written Quran (parts/ books) happened till today. If you go to Quran printers, you will know what they do with the spoilt parts – they burn it. At Muslims’ homes, if a ‘mushaf’ (any written Quranic verses of any forms) is incomplete, lost it portions due to wear and tear, we burn it anytime. Because if we keep them, it might be loosen or scattered even in unclean places. This prohibited. It cannot be stepped over also. like a “taboo” more or less.

    That is not the issue here. Today, you can easily tell whether a copy of the Quran is mistaken by comparing it against other copies.

    The issue is: How do you know, for sure, that Caliph Uthman did not make a mistake with his earliest copy? What makes you so sure that he was so careful, so perfect, so mistake-free? He was not an infallible prophet, as I said before. How do you know for sure he did the job right? Or do you just believe so?

    For me, I put no faith in just a single, solitary keeper of the Bible. But because there are thousands of people who have worked on the Bible since the time it was first written by hand, I can have more faith that the margin for error is lower.

    You have no pre-Uthman manuscripts of the Quran to compare it to! Whereas, I can easily compare today’s Bible to thousands of pre-modern, pre-Catholic, pre-Jesus era manuscripts.

    My reasoning is simply this, and I ask you to answer as best you can:

    There are thousands of ancient manuscripts of verses of the Bible that can be compared against today’s modern Bible, kept by hundreds of people who have no contact with one another throughout the world.

    Compare this to NO ancient manuscripts of the Quran from before the time of Caliph Uthman. And he was the sole person (along with 4 aides) who undertook this work.

    So, using no religious arguments, why do you still think it is more likely that the Bible has mistakes than it is likely that the Quran has mistakes?

    Quite frankly, by using neutral and objective standards, the probability of the Bible containing inaccuracies is much lower than for the Quran.

    Just pretend an athiest, secular, scientific professor is judging between us. What would he say to your ‘Because Allah, Mohammad and Muslims say so’ argument, as compared to my ‘Physical evidence, archaeology and logic’ argument?

    ——————————

    To compare with the Bible, as I said before, not need for me to suplly to you the contradictions, its hanky panky, status etc. Just type on your internet, you’ll find hundreds of them. Never been reconciled. The whole world knows. It not a heresays or else. It is fact. Perhaps you also know what William Campbell said about it ? “The most confused book ever printed in the world”. Not Bart Ehrman alone. Sir William Muir said more or less the same. Christian themselves said that, NOT Muslims!

    Nasaei, you continue to selectively quote people who think the Bible is full of errors, while ignoring those people who think the Bible is accurate.

    You state things is such a way as if you are 100% sure that the Bible is full of problems. It is not hearsay, but neither is it fact. It is just an argument, and one that many scholars – Christian or secular – are still debating. You can repeat your allegations all you want, but that does not make it fact.

    You know what else yo ucan find on the Internet? Lots of sites detailing how the Quran is full of problems. How do you respond to that?

    The reason I ask you to provide me some alleged contradictions, ONE BY ONE, is so I can prove to you how they are not actually problems. It is my opinion that whatever alleged problems within the Bible, it can be answered satisfactorily. Whereas you automatically assume that there are no answers to such accusations! That is simply not fair.

    At the same time, you do not consider that the vast majority of non-Muslim scholars do not consider the Quran to be an accurately handed down document. In fact, even some Muslims (and those who leave Islam after their discoveries) have serious doubts about the authenticity of the Quran.

    Does that make the Quran inaccurate? Just because some people say so?

    If not, why should the arguments of some people make the Bible inaccurate, when there are others who act as a counterweight to their claims?

    And why do you even consider the people who criticize the Bible to be ‘Christians’? Let me ask you, if a Muslim believes that the Quran is merely a book written by a human instead of the word of Allah, is he really a Muslim? Or just an impostor?

    Similarly, just becase someone calls himself a Christian, does not mean he really is one. A true Christian believes that the Bible is the accurately transmitted word of God – if he believes otherwise, how does he even know what it means to ‘be a Christian’, since all our reference comes from the Bible????

    ———————————

    Allah says in Quran no ones capable of creating another Quran, not even its surah or numbers of verses. Millions of Christian Arabs whose mother toungue is Arabic failed to create one – for 1400 yrs. No one capable. Because it is protected and preserved by Allah God Almighty.

    Nasaei, I want you to do one thing for me: Please do not use any arguments that an atheist would laugh at you for using.

    Just pretend an athiest, secular, scientific professor is judging between us. What would he say to your ‘Because Allah, Mohammad and Muslims say so’ argument, as compared to my ‘Physical evidence, archaeology and logic’ argument?

    What is so wonderful about the Quran, anyway, that can be explained in an objective and neutral manner?

    Of course Muslims will say that ‘Oh, the Quran is so perfect and wonderful and impossible to match!’. But that is what Christians will say about the Bible too.

    And of course Muslims willl claim that Allah protects the Quran. But Christians will say that YHWH protects the Bible.

    So what advantage does the Quran have over the Bible, if we use such subjective arguments? Do you understand what I am getting at here?

    That is why I ask you not to bring up ‘evidence’ that an atheist would laugh at, because it just wastes our time. You will keep quoting Quran suras, I will keep quoting Bible verses, and our discussion will end in a deadlock.

    —————————-

    When I said it contain indecencies/ pornography that immposible to be intact, impossible to be word of God.. then you returned to me by saying Quran is also the same ! HAVE YOU READ QURAN before ?

    Actually, what I did was two things;

    1) I asked you exactly what indecencies you meant. You did not answer.
    2) I explained one example of an alleged indecency that was raised by your favourite polemicist, Ahmad Deedat. You did not acknowledge it.

    I surmise that you have not been reading my replies fully, even in the 10 days since I last posted a reply.

  105. Scott Thong Says:

    Okay Nasaei, I will make it as simple as possible: WHY do you personally think that the Bible is corrupted, using your own reasons AND NOT any quotes from other people or scholars?

    Here are my own reasons why I think the Bible is more likely to be accurate VS. the Quran:

    1) Number of people responsible - From the time the scriptures were written down onwards, there were thousands of individuals involved in keeping the Bible accurate over the milennia – from Jewish scribes and reciters, to letter-copiers who made copies of the Gospels and Paul’s letters, to monks in their monasteries, to even non-Christian groups like the Gnostics. With so many people involved, it is very difficult for one mistake to spread through ALL THE DIFFERENT PEOPLE since the rest would be able to compare their own work and spot the mistake.

    Compare this to the Quran – only Caliph Uthman and four aides were involved in compiling the entire Quran. If one of them made a mistake, how would it be found out in time? In fact, one of the aides even admitted to leaving out a portion of a Sura, and remembered just in time! How many other omisssions of typos were made?

    2) Area of distribution - The ancient copies of the Bible were spread over Asia, Africa and Europe amidst various churches, groups and enclaves that had no contact with one another. In fact, they were often antagonistic – like the Roman Catholic Church vs the Eastern Orthodox Church, and even the Gnostics who were considered heretics! How is it possible that some changes or corruptions could be introduced to all the copies across all these places (as Muslims claim)? Therefore, it is very difficult for one mistake to spread to ALL THE SEPARATE REGIONS.

    3) Languages - Related to the area of distribution, the ancient copies of the Bible were written in the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, but also were translated to Arabic, Syrian, Egyptian and many other languages. How is it possible that someone who intended to change or corrupt the Bible (as Muslims claim) could make the correct changes to every one of these dozen-plus languages? Therefore, it is very difficult for one mistake to END UP THE SAME in ALL THE DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.

    Compare this to the Quran – it is only in Arabic (and also much shorter than the Bible). If someone did intend to make edits to it, he would only need to know one language!

    Compare this to the Quran, which was localized in only Arabia – and with all copies in Caliph Uthman’s tent! If he wanted to make some changes, what is there to stop him from affecting every single copy?

    4) Ancient manuscripts - There are thousands of copies of Bible passages that we can use to compare with the modern Bible. For just one example, the Dead Sea Scrolls copy of Isaiah from 300 BC is word-for-word the exact same as today’s modern Bible in Hebrew. Therefore, it is very difficult for one mistake to spread to ALL THE INDIVIDUAL COPIES.

    Compare this to the Quran – no copies from before Caliph Uthman’s time exist. How can we compare the modern Quran to what Caliph Uthman saw before he made his own copy? What if he had made a mistake in his copy of the Quran – how would you know, since you have nothing to compare it to?

    ——————

    Do you see what I did? I argued my point of view without using any arguments from the Bible. I did not invoke the ‘Because YHWH says so’ line of thinking. Any atheist would be able to accept, or at least consider my points.

  106. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks Brth. Thong. Forgive me if I had used some improper words. I’ll try to be fair, but when it comes to telling facts, I’ll speak ‘direct to the point’.

    As I repeatedly said, we (Muslims) ‘confirmed’ and agree that Torah (Old Testament), Bible (part of the Bible) and Quran are all from the same sources – God Almighty. Quran mentioned them many, many times. Quran
    also named one of its surah “Maryam” in reference to Jesus pious and righteous mother. The names of earlier prophets like Daud(David), Harun (Aron), Sulaiman (Solomon) and many more, besides Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismael (Ishmael), Musa and Isa (Jesus) alaisallam/pbu them all). You acknowledge that too I think. It is ‘compulsory’ for all Muslims to believe
    those prophets were all mesengers of Allah that revealed us revelations to guide man from being astray. If no prophets were sent down, might be peoples still belive in idols, animism like that of aborigines – worshipped sun, moon, fire, trees etc. even worship a man.. And law of the jungle might rule.

    We see, at times of Moses people were well versed with evil witchcraft. So God gave moses the superior of them all. During Jesus reign, people were good at curing deseases. So God gave miracle to Jesus that unmatched by anybody. Jesus cured lepers, even the blinds and raised dead bodies. What God gave Muhammad when peoples were master of literature and poetry ? Quran ! No one can match it, till today. To me, non Muslims usually read translation of Quran, not Quran in Arabic. So the ‘masterpiece’ of literature cannot be felt, cannot be appreciated by them.

    If I have time, tomorrow I will respond to some of your comments. The important ones first. I noted that, you inaccurately mentioned something
    about facts of Quran. Inaccurate means not true, somehow. Thanks

  107. Scott Thong Says:

    As I repeatedly said, we (Muslims) ‘confirmed’ and agree that Torah (Old Testament), Bible (part of the Bible) and Quran are all from the same sources – God Almighty. God Almighty. Quran mentioned them many, many times.

    The names of earlier prophets like Daud(David), Harun (Aron), Sulaiman (Solomon) and many more, besides Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismael (Ishmael), Musa and Isa (Jesus) alaisallam/pbu them all). You acknowledge that too I think. It is ‘compulsory’ for all Muslims to believe
    those prophets were all mesengers of Allah that revealed us revelations to guide man from being astray.

    But as I have said earlier, Christians do not believe that the source of the Quran is God Almighty. Christians acknowledge the prophets, but do not acknowledge that they were sent by the same authority as Mohammad. It is compulsory for all Christians to believe that Mohammad was not a prophet of the same God the former prophets followed.

    And you must understand that even though the names and references to the prophets seems to be identical at a glance, they are actually very different people.

    For instance, in the Bible, Ishmael was never almost sacrificed by Abraham – Abraham was about to sacrifice Isaac. (Whereas in Islam, Ismael was almost sacrificed by Ibrahim.)

    Solomon never spoke to the animals or commanded jinns. (Whereas Sulaiman did.)

    And Jesus (Yeshu/Yeshua in Hebrew) taught that He was the way to salvation and God’s one and only Son AND also God in the flesh, all of which were denied by Isa.

    Either they are different people entirely, or one of the sources is wrong (and we will each argue on opposite ends on this issue).

    I am sorry if I offend, but you must understand that to a non-Muslim, be he Christian or Jew or Buddhist or atheist, basing any reasoning on something the Quran teaches holds no weight to them.

    —————————

    What God gave Muhammad when peoples were master of literature and poetry ? Quran ! No one can match it, till today. To me, non Muslims usually read translation of Quran, not Quran in Arabic. So the ‘masterpiece’ of literature cannot be felt, cannot be appreciated by them.

    Maybe you satrt by saying WHAT exactly make the Quran so unmatched. Not just the general idea of being unmatched – is it the style? The content? What makes it great? Give us details!

    ———————————-

    Quran also named one of its surah “Maryam” in reference to Jesus pious and righteous mother.

    Sooooooooooo……..

    Does the Quran also say that Jesus’ mother is Moses’ sister???

  108. Belle Says:

    All I can say is GOD help anyone that belives obama is the messiah you better read your BIBLE to find the truth before it,s to late.only JESUS is are Messiah you should have no other, AMEN.

  109. ruth Says:

    Mohammed was not a prophet of god…
    The men that had Jesus killed also said they worshipped Abraham’s god and were children of Abraham.. But Jesus said they were SEED of Abraham, not Sons of abraham and worshipped satan as the god of Abraham..
    The same pharisees doctrine which is spoken of in the Gospel is identical to Islam’s doctrine.. It denies Jesus is Son of God and even killed him for blasphemy for saying it..
    These also denied his death.. These wore long gowns, said long prayers, stoned women…
    And history proves these same pharisees were forced converted in judaism and were of edom and were the descendants of Ishamel and Esau.. It was these Jesus said killed all the prophets and righteous men…
    Islam is nothing but the revived Babylonian worship…It is not of God… These are of those who say they are jews but are not..
    Islam is a death cult…
    Obama is the messiah of Islam come to save his children of darkness and their doctrines of demons.. Make no mistake about it..we are in for some dark times..

  110. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Atheists, if they are willing to see and think beyond may not belittle my logic views whatsoever. The problem is that they believe only in what they believe. They’re quagmire starked in their own mental horizon.

    Do you think the following few samples (among the many) of Biblical verses to be ‘God’s words’ ?:

    “But Rabshakeh said unto them, hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak this words? Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you ” (II Kings 18:27)

    God talking about the possibility or drinking your own urine (piss) and eat you own faeces ?.

    Cow dung can be made ammonia fertilizer, but eating own dung is..unspeakable. Don’t attribute it to God, please, please..brother and sisters. It cannot be word of God” ! It cannot be. Most likely the word of scribes, Paul, Peter or irresponsible hands that attributed it to “God”.

    And see this sample of indecencies, immorality, obscinity:

    “Yet she multiplied her whoredoms (of prostitute), in calling to rememberance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours (prostitute partners), whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and, and whose issue is like the issue of horses” (Ezekiel 23: 19-21)

    “and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission (ejaculation ??) was like of stallions” (Ezekiel 23: 21, NRSV). Sources: internet

    Oh my God, I cant imagine it to be your words !

  111. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I will try not to quote Bible more, esp. of those not so “words of God” because it tells something immoral, not nice to ears and eyes. You know Brother Thong, I use internet at my office, therefore difficult to respond to many of your previous comments, because of time constraint. Anyway, I will try. Some of you comment on Quran, and your statements, you “enquiries” needed to be explained. Many non Christian like me do not understand Bible, and on the other hand many non Muslims think Quran so and so..which are not right from Muslim perspective. Some of the issue raised are a bit funny also, absurd etc.

  112. Scott Thong Says:

    Atheists, if they are willing to see and think beyond may not belittle my logic views whatsoever. The problem is that they believe only in what they believe. They’re quagmire starked in their own mental horizon

    Nasaei, the problem here is that you ‘logic views’ are flawed – the problem atheists and all non-Muslims have with many of your arguments and quotes is that they only argue from the Quran.

    By doing so, you are presupposing – without any debate first – that a god exists, that the Quran is truthful, and that the Quran is really Allah’s word. Since the Quran is right, therefore your arguments are automatically correct because.

    But for a non-Muslim, they start by believing the OPPOSITE – that no god exists, that the Quran is not truthful, and that the Quran is not Allah’s word. Since they believe the Quran is WRONG, so they automatically find your arguments wrong, since your arguments are all based on the Quran.

    Do you catch my drift?

    To put it into perspective, imagine if you asked why a Taoist believes what he does. He answers “Because the Tao Te Ching says so.” You ask why he thinks what it says is true, and he says “Because the Tao Te Ching says it is true.”

    Can you get anywhere with that kind of reasoning?

    So, if you really want to get anywhere with convincing people of your viewpoint, you have to either:

    1) Use arguments that do not need to begin with assumptions that a god exists, that the Quran is truthful, and that the Quran is really Allah’s word

    or

    2) First prove that a god exists, that the Quran is truthful, and that the Quran is really Allah’s word – then continue with your standard line of argument.

    Otherwise, why on earth do you think a nonMuslim would find your argument convincing when he doesn’t believe the same things about Allah and the Quran as you do?

    ——————————

    Do you think the following few samples (among the many) of Biblical verses to be ‘God’s words’ ?:

    “But Rabshakeh said unto them, hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak this words? Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you ” (II Kings 18:27)

    God talking about the possibility or drinking your own urine (piss) and eat you own faeces ?

    Cow dung can be made ammonia fertilizer, but eating own dung is..unspeakable. Don’t attribute it to God, please, please..brother and sisters. It cannot be word of God” ! It cannot be. Most likely the word of scribes, Paul, Peter or irresponsible hands that attributed it to “God”

    Yes, Nasaei – it is really irresponsible hands that attribute such words to God, when it is clearly not God who said such things. How irresponsible of YOU!

    Yes, Christians consider the Bible to be ‘the word of God’. But you take it far too literally… When a father reads a storybook to his children, and reads about the part where the giant dragon says “I will eat the princess!”, does this mean that the father wants to eat the princess?

    Of course not! The father is simply reciting what the dragon said. Similarly, God simply had the prophets write down what actually happened in history. Though the Bible is still God’s word, not everything in the Bible is what God endorses. Please try to understand that. Or else, see my comparison to Islam below if you persist in your stubborn mindset.

    You see Nasaei, this is why I feel you do not bother to read my carefully written replies.

    If you did, you might have realized that I already PREDICTED that these were the exact Bible passages you had a problem with, that you got these passages from your favourite Ahmad Deedat, and that I already provided the clear cut explanation for the passages.

    Observe:

    http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/the-obamessiah/#comment-35726

    I) In 2 Kings 18:27 the Bible makes reference to eating filth and drinking urine. Deedat takes offense at the mere mention of such words in a Holy Book, and then, without giving any consideration to who has said them, calls it an “absurdity”.

    This statement is not made by God nor is it an instruction given by God. Rather, it is part of an historical account recording the words of the commander of the Assyrian army who was an-idol worshipper and an enemy of the Jews who worshipped the One true God.

    Did you get that? Even as your own copy-paste quote shows, the one saying those foul words is not God, but a rude man named Rabshakeh – a pagan unbeliever who is the enemy of God’s people. Does the Bible recording the sinful deeds of men mean that the Bible is ‘pornography’???

    Ahmad Deedat is proven to be ignorant, a liar, or both. This is what I find from my own reading of his own words, not from what other people say. So any arguments that come from his or match his, I do not give much credit to.

    The Bible contains an account of the history of the people of God. So if in that history, a pagan uttered foul words to incite God’s righteous anger, are you saying that the Bible should not quote those words to show just what God took offense at?

    So tell me, why is not the Quran also considered full of ‘filth’ when it talks about orgasms, peeing, farting, excreting and fondling women?

    If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women – Sura 5:6

    It is talking about hygiene habits, but why does it have to be so rudely explicit???

    Use your same standard for judgement on yourself!

    Even by your own criteria that you previously mentioned (Quran is not evil when it mentions evil things, because it also condemns those evil things) the Bible passages you cited are exempt – because the army of the evil Rabshakeh is later totally defeated by God!

    See what great punishment is exacted upon the heads of evil men who utter foul language against God!!! So how can you still say that this passage means the Bible cannot be God’s word?

    In short: I feel your objection is based on an immature attitude towards what does or does not constitute ‘pornography’. Not only that, it is an attitude that is heavily influenced by Ahmad Deedat no less. And finally, you did not read my earlier long remarks – that were posted in the 10 days of my absence, so you had lots of time to consider them. So do you even consider any of my remarks, or are you here just to try and prove your already-decided point?

    —————————-

    And see this sample of indecencies, immorality, obscinity:

    “Yet she multiplied her whoredoms (of prostitute), in calling to rememberance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours (prostitute partners), whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and, and whose issue is like the issue of horses” (Ezekiel 23: 19-21)

    “and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission (ejaculation ??) was like of stallions” (Ezekiel 23: 21, NRSV). Sources: internet

    Oh my God, I cant imagine it to be your words !

    Do you even know the background of these verses? Who is God speaking to, through the prophet Ezekiel?

    God is condemning the sinful people of Israel who have abandoned His precepts, and had the very same sins and lustful mindsets as God is condemning!

    If you want to play ‘cite the verse’, here I have some passages which show that Mohammad was also full of pornography:

    And if a man’s discharge proceeded that of the woman, then the child resembles the father, and if the woman’s discharge proceeded that of the man, then the child resembles the mother.” – Sahih Bukhari 6:60:7

    Ugh! Look! Just like Ezekiel, Mohammad is talking about orgasm secretions! So, does my citing these kind of passages mean that Mohammad is a dirty minded and foul mouthed? Does it mean that the Hadith is pornography?

    Or should all verses be taken IN CONTEXT instead of picking out certain parts to use as attacks?

    Use your same standard for judgement on yourself!

    ——————————–

    I will try not to quote Bible more, esp. of those not so “words of God” because it tells something immoral, not nice to ears and eyes.

    I suggest you try not to quote the Bible more, because you aren’t exactly good at the context.

    From my experience, I suspect you get your understanding of the Bible solely from other sites and especially people like Ahmad Deedat, instead of your own readings.

    As for immoral things that are not nice to the ears and eyes, I rather take more offense at the actions of Mohammad such as:

    Mohammad gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has.”” – Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulallah pg 515

    “She was of Banu Umayya bin Zayd. When Abu Afak had been killed she displayed disaffection. When Mohammad heard what she had said he said, “Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?” Umayr bin Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. In the morning he came to Mohammad and told him what he had done. Mohammad said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said, ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.'” – Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulallah pg 676

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin: When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair were up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine. – Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4917 –

    How can you look up to such a man and follow his actions as an example, which is what Allah through the Quran commands?

    ——————————–

    You know Brother Thong, I use internet at my office, therefore difficult to respond to many of your previous comments, because of time constraint.

    I operate from the office too – it is not as you are the only working person who goes online.

    Some of the issue raised are a bit funny also, absurd etc.

    That is exactly how I feel about your attitude when you talk about the Bible.

    I await your responses patiently. Especially on this ‘funny also, absurd’ sura in the Quran:

    At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: “O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

    “O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!” Sura 19:27-28

    So I ask of you again: Does the Quran say that Mary the mother of Jesus was also the sister of Aaron (and Moses)?

    Do you ever answer any of my questions directly?

    Does the Quran say that Jesus’ mother is Moses’ sister??? Yes or no???

  113. ruth Says:

    The bible is the word of god….There are many verses recording the acts of men….Some accuse God of being evil or the bible not being of god because god had these acts recorded in the bible…
    It is the koran that God did not write …An angel wrote the koran ..The Bible forewarned of satan coming as an angel of light with a perverted gospel, wherein were lying teachings about Jesus and the Spirit of god…2 Corinth. 11 -4,14
    The koran has many many verses instructing muslim to destroy complete cities simply because they will not accept the lies of koran….God never forced anyone to beieive in him…Even in the Garden he gave man a chance to accept his wisdom treee or satan’s counterfeit wisdom tree… God has not changed… He has given man another chance to accept his wisdom book or satans wisdom book (koran).Islam is a religion of death…

  114. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Before I engage with you in this sincere exchange of views, many times I noticed that Christian apologists claimed the Dead Sea Scroll was one of the proofs that oldest record and parchments of Biblical scripture doesn’t vary, but exactly same to the current Bibles. In Jimmy Swaggard vs Deedat debate that followed by millions , Deedat challenged Swaggard if he had the guts and face (without feeling silly) to read a portion of Bible verses for $USD100. The said verses purportedly contained sexuality, incest or filthy things. But Swaggard did a trick. He took out from his rostrum’s drawer a King James Version (if I’m not mistaken) and read it, but Deedat was referring to the other version he had with him (maybe NSRV or what)t hat does NOT have the ‘dirty’ verses. So Deedat lost USD100 ! Deedat, at the end of that famous debate also challenged all, by saying ‘none of the Bibles” is identical ..”that a cjhallenge” he said.

    So, oviously (to an outsider like me), a certain Bible version does not contained the other version’s portion or verses. I simply do not think Deedat was lying in front of university’s professors, scholars and audience. If he did, Swaggard would probably came forward to rectify it immediately, rather than kept silence on that particular issue.

    I’m asking you also Brther Thong, you mentioned the Death Sea Scroll doesnt contradict, or in conformity with.. with which BIble today’s versions ?

    You also made an inaccurate statement that there is NO pre-Uthman copies of Quran. For your information, pre-Uthman Quran is in Topkapi Museum in Turkey, anyone can verify it today; the othe similar text is in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. If I’m not mistaken, there is also one being kept by Germany museum today. Those copies is not Uthman ‘version’. The letters is like jawi, no reading signs, just plain arabic letters. Uthman made it reading signages by putting (kasra, fatha, tanween, qalqalah etc) up and underneath of the letters so that non Arab and non Quraish Muslim could read it correctly like today’s Quran.

    I usually heard also, space scientists say, the distance from earth to the moon, for example is about 240,000 miles, and sun about 93million miles; or earth to Pluto is certain thousand “light years”. They never say like you did.. the distance from earth to the moon “is space” (thru space, of cource)
    or the width from a particular point in space to another is “space”. That must be something conforting your ownself, that in line with your views. I dont know any single physicist agree with you in Ipoh brother. That was first time I heard such a hypothesis. Unless if someone asked, what is in between a space to another point of space = space but NOT the with, distance, weight (whic is difficult to weigh an empty or vacuum thing). I agree.

    Thanks

  115. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    When you free, i urge you to watch on Youtube Yusus Estes, a PhD holder, a former priest embraced Islam. Dont get me wrong, NOT to proselytise Islam, but maybe to know your idea why, what’s the reasons for an educated peoples to leave Christinity and becoming Muslim for ‘nothing’ !
    I mean, peoples can think clearly, to opt for a badly imaged religion like Islam.. maybe a last thing to do.. Ere not they somehow naive? crazy?
    One of the topic to search on Youtube : “why did Yusuf Estes embrace Islam?”. Just to exchange views, your opinion about this man. I urge you to view the recording-his statements. He doesnt attack Bibles nor calling peoples to be Muslim either, but telling his expriences only. I urge you Brthr Thong to view it.

    And, it would be good also to learn why other educated persons such as Dr. Gary Miller, Dr. Jeffrey Lang, Dr. Ingrid Mattson, Brth Abdul Green,
    Dr. Jeremiah McAuliffe – all wre former christians becomed Muslim for reasons known only to themselves (to me because Islam is NOT all that bad things a portrayed by West’s media – terrorists, hijackers, killers etc, etc). And many more intellects joined and became Muslims. Except Brthr Dr. Yusuf, the rest do not have many websites which describe experience propagating or teaching Islam. Yusuf Estes made many websites and links
    on internets, very prolific person I think.

  116. ruth Says:

    First question , was the catholic priest who converted to Islam a pedaphyle???
    Pedaphylia is legal in Islam..They call it marriage…
    Islam is a religion of death…It is not of God…
    The real truth of Islam is: Allah was seperated from Arabia’s 360 pagan astrology gods and declared to be the God of Abraham..
    As I see it the only way satan could impersonate God would be to say he is the God of Abarham..

  117. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Specifically for Ruth..

    Talking about man’s behaviour is a ‘big endless chapter’ I think. We should talk about cars, not its driver’s behaviour which jumped red lights, etc. All religions taught good things, but lot of bad things done by its followers, immoral and sometimes unspeakable, heinous crimes. You see what was (and is) happening to some of churches in the West (its priests) for sexual harassment, scandal ? (mostly sexual scandals). Unbelievable. The whole world knows this. Recently they paid a huge sum of money to ‘compensate’ the victim. Didn’t you read the news? Priest sodomised a boy and (some other priests had sexual relation with men, women, etc).
    In today world, news spreaded so fast worldwide, you cannot hide it.
    I don’t think Christianity taught them so. We can find many bad apples in many followers of almost all religions. Didn’t Ruth read or get the news ? Legal actions was taken by victims, and some are still pending. The men we supposed teach and lead, and have high moral integrity did such things, just imagine. This happens in many places, not certain religions only.

    Religion taught to marry only one wife..after all we notice they have one ‘formal’ legal wife, but keep another secret woman outside marriage.
    Can the hide that from being known to public ? Yes, man are cunning, they can cover it, BUT they CANNOT cover everything ! Some are explicitly having relation with women.

    AS for paedophilia.. I don’t know. AS far as I’m concerned, some girls reach their puberty age at 10 I think, though in the West, it is only ‘legal ‘when they reach 18 or 21. So you interpret according to this written laws parameters/ benchmark. Anythink below = paedophilia !

    Your comment on pagan gods above is exactly lack of knowledge. Wild allegations, nothing more, nothing less. Ridiculous. Unlearned (maybe).

  118. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Brthr Thong,

    In that debate, (pls view it yourself), Deedat said Dr Anis Shorrosh mistakenly thought that Mary (Jesus’s Mother) and Moses’s sister the same person, whereas it is NOT (different Mary). (NOte: The tapes have series 1= 22; series 2= 16 tapes on Youtube). If you view all, then you will be able to listen to Deedat statements about the “Mary/ Mariams” issue. He did not eloborate but ‘corrected’ Dr Anis Shorrosh on the issue in just several second time.

  119. ruth Says:

    How else would satan counterfeit God except by claiming he is the God of Abraham…
    2 Corinthians 11 -4, 14 says satan transforms himself into an angel of light…He teaches another spirit of god, another Jesus and another gospel…This means satan himself comes as a messenger of god (messiah) and he teaches allah as the sprit of God.. He teaches that a man called Issa is Jesus and he teaches that the koran is a gospel from god…
    As for Allah being one of the 360 pagan gods of Arabia.. This is recorded in history…Have you never considered the cresent moon and star of Islam..This pagan symbol can be traced back to the ancient worship of the sun, moon and stars and host of heaven that God strictly forbid…There are acnient relics of this moon and star sysmbol that existed long before mohamamed..This ancient worship was astrology wherein all pagan gods originated….This is the pagan religion from which god rescued Abraham….Islam did nothing but go backward both to the old covenant and to the worship of pagan gods…
    Islam is the broad way of Matt7 that leads to death and hell…Better wake up.. Not much time left..l

  120. ruth Says:

    Matthew 16-13 through 23….says the pagans and unbelievers said Jesus was a man, a prophet, etc..Sounds like muslims to me…whereas
    Peter said Jesus was SON OF GOD…Jesus said this was revealed knowledge…IT is not revealed to muslims..
    And then Peter told Jesus “He would not die” To which jesus replied, “Get thee behind me SATAN”…
    These words in Matt..reveal the lies of Islam.. Muslims say Jesus is only a man and not Son of God and Muslims deny Jesus death… Jesus called Peter satan when he denied Jesus death to warn us that it is Satan who denies Jesus death.. Does this mean mohammed was satan??? I think it does…

  121. ruth Says:

    Edom (Idumea) was populated with Esau and Ishamel’s descendants…100 years or more before Jesus, a Jewish warrior named John Hycanus conquered Idumea and forced the people to convert to judaism..The two murderous herods were of Idumea and were arabians..(descendants of Ishmael)…
    John 8 reveals much about these forced convderts..
    Many of these forced converts became pharisees…These are the men who had Jesus killed.. These forced concerts had the exact same doctrine as Islam tpday…..They claimed they were sons of abraham.. They claimed to worship abraham god….Jesus said they were SEED, not sons of Abraham.. He also said they worshipped the devil and were his children… These also denied Jesus was Son of God and considered it blasphemy… They also denied his death and resurrection.. These honored the prophets, they wore long gowns, they stoned women. These washed often and prayed often..They loves salutations like peace to you, peace be upon you…
    Jesus said these sit in Moses seat… This means they live by old covenant laws and expect the prophet like Moses to rescue them..These forced converts were NOT ISRAEL.. These were of Esau- and Ishmael…
    Jesus said these men were those who killed the prophets..

    Islam goes back a long way in history…..They just change their name alng the way…
    As for todays Islam the bible says in Revelation 20- 7, 8 that satan gathers and deceives the men who are numbered as the SAND OF THE SEA to battle Jesus…Ishamels descendants are as the SAND OF THE SEA…and the koran is their weapon to battle Jesus.. They lose big time and soon..

  122. ruth Says:

    Isaiah 34-5..For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
    Zech65-2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof [is] twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.
    Zech 5-3..
    Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it.
    This says Idumea is the people of the curse…Bear in mind Idumea are Esau and Ishamels descendants…
    The next two verses say a book (roll) will go all over the entire earth and it is a curse that desolates those who accept it…THIS IS THE KORAN..
    wHEN jESUS PROPHECIED OF THE END TIME FALSE PROPHETS WITH THE GREAT DECEPTIONS HE SAID their gospel would be preached in the entire world right before the end..
    So keep on sharing your koran gospel with the world ..It hastens the end…

  123. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Quran is ‘unmatched’ in what ? in what aspects it is unmatched? In one of its verses, God (Allah) said, “if you are in doubts (of the status of Quran), then produce your own surah (chapter) like it. (You can) take men and jin
    to be your helpers. Surely you may not be able to produce it”. For 1,400 years, attempts been made by men to produce suck a kind. Where is it ?
    After all they dumped it (the drafts) in the trash bin – where it belongs !

    Andrew Rippin, a professor of religios studies said it is impossible to produce such a scripture. However to me a layman Muslim, I think what non Muslims usually read is Quran’s translations, not Quran. They will never know, feel or experience the ‘masterpiece’ of Arabic of the highest literature, poetic or classic, harmony, melody (etc) of that kind. But God said, Quran is not a poem or whatever.

    If you read hadiths (saying of prophet) you will be able to distinguish between the two, because it is not the same. Quran is Quran – different (I mean the Arabic of the two (NOT translation that non Muslims usually read).

    Secondly, if I’m not mistaken Quran is the one and only holy book that peoples able to memorize the whole content, though not everybody can do it, of course. Millions of pious Muslims (hafizs) memorized it from cover to cover. I think quite impossible for any book of more than 6000 verses and hundreds of thousand words in it, to be memorized, other than Quran. Why ? I dont know. For sure, a professor for instance, doesn t remember in order, all the contents of his books- any givenm book of such volumes. I hope this (among others) answered Brthr Scott Thong question “in what aspect Quran is “unmatched”. Only God knows best, after all.

  124. Scott Thong Says:

    In that debate, (pls view it yourself), Deedat said Dr Anis Shorrosh mistakenly thought that Mary (Jesus’s Mother) and Moses’s sister the same person, whereas it is NOT (different Mary). (NOte: The tapes have series 1= 22; series 2= 16 tapes on Youtube). If you view all, then you will be able to listen to Deedat statements about the “Mary/ Mariams” issue. He did not eloborate but ‘corrected’ Dr Anis Shorrosh on the issue in just several second time.

    Nasaei, I cannot accept your answer.

    I did not quote from the debate, but directly from the Quran. Whether or not Dr Anis Shorrosh thinks that Miriam and Mariyam were the same person is not the issue here: The issue is whether Mohammad thought they were the same person, as the Sura states.

    So are the Quran and Mohammad mistaken? Or am I reading it wrongly, just as Deedat claims Dr Anis Shorrosh did?

    Here it is for reference again:

    At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: “O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

    “O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!” – Sura 19:27-28

    No wonder Dr Anis Shorrosh could be ‘mistaken’, it seems to be exactly what the Quran says!

    So how come Ahmad Deedat claimed the opposite of what the Quran so clearly states? Or is it more of Deedat’s previously-demonstrated dishonesty/ignorance?

  125. Scott Thong Says:

    I’m asking you also Brther Thong, you mentioned the Death Sea Scroll doesnt contradict, or in conformity with.. with which BIble today’s versions ?

    As I have said often – The Dead Sea Scrolls contains parts of the Old Testament. It contains the entirety of Isaiah in Hebrew. Comparing that to the book of Isaiah in a modern Hebrew Bible, there are only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Comparing it to a modern English Bible, the meaning is still the same.

    You also made an inaccurate statement that there is NO pre-Uthman copies of Quran. For your information, pre-Uthman Quran is in Topkapi Museum in Turkey, anyone can verify it today; the othe similar text is in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. If I’m not mistaken, there is also one being kept by Germany museum today. Those copies is not Uthman ‘version’.

    I am interested to know whether the copies say the same things as a modern Quran.

    I usually heard also, space scientists say, the distance from earth to the moon, for example is about 240,000 miles, and sun about 93million miles; or earth to Pluto is certain thousand “light years”. They never say like you did.. the distance from earth to the moon “is space” (thru space, of cource)
    or the width from a particular point in space to another is “space”. That must be something conforting your ownself, that in line with your views. I dont know any single physicist agree with you in Ipoh brother.

    I think that is because you totally do not understand my comparison. I am talking about ‘space’ as a physical measurement, not ‘outer space’ like in sci-fi and rocket ships. To quote Wikipedia: Space is the boundless, three-dimensional extent in which objects and events occur and have relative position and direction.

    ‘Space’ as a physical measurement has three dimensions – length, width and depth. If you take a computer, for instance – you would say its measurements are 60cm long, 80cm wide and 100cm deep.

    So length is a dimension of space, width is a dimension of space, and depth is a dimension of space. But space (the measurement, not the ‘outer space’) is all three together and simultaneously.

  126. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks Brother Thong. I appreciate this cordial discussion. Back to the ‘core issues’ that we disagree or differ, I think because we measure something by the different yardsticks. Take for example “God incarnate”.
    Incarnation might be something noble and may take place all along in Christinity believe. I dont know. However in Islam, God said in surah Al Ikhlas, He is NOT like anything. Not even like any of our mind wanders or imagination because God is not new (all His creatures are relatively new in comparison to Him). Therefore God will never appear in the form of any man, shape or form. No man in history has seen God image. Only Moses heard God’ voice directly but did not see His image though. So God is not like in a ‘box-office’ film that came to earth to enact in the form of man etc. according to Quranic verses. So we argue without ending, without agreeing because our standards are not the same.

    Anyway, it is good that we learned something new.

    I would suggest that you try to listen to Quran recitation on internet “Quranexplorer.com”. At least you know what it is all about. The advantage is (beside learning or experience a new thing) you can listen to it’s instant translation and you may choose which reciter you prefer,by the way. It will enrich your knowledge I’m sure. It takes less than 25 second to downnload and listen. Definitely it is not like regular Arabic !

    See you then.

  127. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thank you Brother Thong for this interactive discussion. I appreciate. I have few more questions to ask, just to exchange ideas and to learn more about Chritianity and to furnish my knowledge pertaining belief;

    1) Holy Ghost: Who is it according to your understanding?

    2) Do you accept if somebody says not ALL words/ verses in the Holy Bible contained God’s words ? (I cannot accept if anybody says there is 2 or three words found to be man’s word in the Quran).

    3) Why do you think (give the reasons) Muhammad wrote the Quran ? Unbelivers/ believers humankind wre challenged by God to produce such a kind of scripture but but after thousand of years it is proven no one capable (remember we have more than 16 millions Arab Christians in Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan Israel etc all failed to accept that challenge; and Muhammad (pbuh) an illiterate capable of doing it?

    4) I am sorry to redundantly repeat this: it is widely known worldwide that Holy Bible contradicts itself. To me I cannot accept such a reality. Unless if we confirm or accept that “it was corrupted”. Just to know your position in these issues

    I think Quran does not say Mary in those 2 verses to be the same person of Mary (Jesus mother). Perhaps you (or any other peoples) thought by those 2 verses, Quran says that. Pls do not interpret on our own idea.

  128. wits0 Says:

    Scott:

    “Nasaei, the problem here is that you ‘logic views’ are flawed – the problem atheists and all non-Muslims have with many of your arguments and quotes is that they only argue from the Quran.

    By doing so, you are presupposing – without any debate first – that a god exists, that the Quran is truthful, and that the Quran is really Allah’s word. Since the Quran is right, therefore your arguments are automatically correct because.

    But for a non-Muslim, they start by believing the OPPOSITE – that no god exists, that the Quran is not truthful, and that the Quran is not Allah’s word. Since they believe the Quran is WRONG, so they automatically find your arguments wrong, since your arguments are all based on the Quran.

    Do you catch my drift?”

    ———————————

    He uses faith to presume as truth and abandons logic at the very first flush. Arab style illogic set in stone.

  129. ruth Says:

    How could a mere man say the holy ghost contridicts himself when it is man who lies and contridicts God.. The holy Ghost is the spirit of truth.. truth does not contridict…
    John 14-26..But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. .
    Luke 12-10…And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
    When muslims BELIEVE Mohammed is the HOLY GHOST COMFORTER it is the unforgiveable sin.. It is same as saying satan is God…John 14-26 says clearly that the holy ghost is the comforter…The holy ghost is that spirit that indwells all of Christs’s believers..It is that spirit Adam should have had but for original sin..
    Mohammed was not the the holy ghost comforter..
    Mohammed was nothing but a counterfeit of the real Christ..Christians call this anti christ… 1 John 2-22..
    The spirit of anti christ denies Jesus is son of God and God is father.. He also denies Jesus death.. Matt 16 -21,22, 23..WAKE UP BEFORE IT IT TOO LATE…

  130. ruth Says:

    tHE KORAN WAS NOT WRITTEN BY MEN.. iT WAS WRITTEN BY THE ANGEL OF LIGHT.. Paul predicted this event in 2 Corinthians 11 – 4,14..He said satan will transform himself into an angel of light and bring another Gospel, another Jesus (Issa) and another spirit of God ( Allah)..
    The entire concept of Islam is nothing but a counterfeit of God’s work with mankind..Islam teaches old covenant ..This is counterfeit of the Jews… Islam teaches Koran lie.. This is counterfeit of the Gospel of Christ… Mohammed himself was a counterfeit of the real messiah Jesus..Allah is a counterfeit of the God of Abraham..
    Islam has been exposed to the entire world to be of satan…Satan’s time is almost over…..
    Also satan has not changed the Koran because it is what he wants… Jihad and world domination… Did not satan say to Jesus “Bow down and worship me as the god (of Abraham) and I will give you the world (jihad)…
    Christians win this battle between good and evil …BETTER WAKE UP…

  131. ruth Says:

    The pharisees who had Jesus killed were of Ishmael and Esau (Idumea),,,, Their doctrine was the EXACT SAME DOCTRINE AS ISLAM.. Jesus said these were of satan…
    Their doctrine was denial that Jesus is Son of God and considered it blasphemy and killed him because of this…
    They professed to be Abrham sons.. Jesus said NOT SONS, but SEED of Abraham.. This would be Ishamel/Esau descendatns..(john 8 and Matt 23.)
    These professed to worship Abrham’s God… Jesus said they worshipped satan…These stoned women, circumsized, wore long gowns, said long prayers, washed ofter, sit in Moses seat ( means they claim the prophet like Moses and are of old covenant)… Jesus also said these encompass land and sea to make men proselyte and the proseltyization makes them into children of hell..
    Jesus further spoke of men who claim to be Jews but are NOT AND ARE LIARS.. These are the men who I just mentioned.. These men say Ishamels is the chosen line thereby making them the chosen people (i.e. Jews),…
    In fact the aforemention SEAT OF MOSES was excavated in 1920s and was found to habe been made by a descendants of Islamel named yudan..all inscribed on the stone seat of Moses.. Archeology does not lie..

  132. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Let Ruth says what he wants.. We need to learn and study..even if something is not our scripture of believe.. so that we do not talk nonsensical.

  133. ruth Says:

    I have always known there is only one truth.. That truth is Jesus…He alone can teach us what is truth and what is not truth…
    Following men’s doctrines only leads to confusion,
    The Bible says THE HOLY GHOST COMFORTER IS OUR TEACHER…HE indwells believers..
    Jesus said when the false teachers come to you to lead you away from the truth of the Gospel ,”Do not premeidate what you will say;, I will speak through you.”..Christ within, the hope of glory..
    THE HOLY GHOST CcOMFORTER IS A GIFT FROM GOD TO BELIEVERS.. ACTS 2: 38..
    Mohammed was not the Holy Ghost Comforer.. John 14 -26.

  134. Scott Thong Says:

    Thank you Brother Thong for this interactive discussion. I appreciate. I have few more questions to ask, just to exchange ideas and to learn more about Chritianity and to furnish my knowledge pertaining belief;

    1) Holy Ghost: Who is it according to your understanding?

    2) Do you accept if somebody says not ALL words/ verses in the Holy Bible contained God’s words ? (I cannot accept if anybody says there is 2 or three words found to be man’s word in the Quran).

    3) Why do you think (give the reasons) Muhammad wrote the Quran ? Unbelivers/ believers humankind wre challenged by God to produce such a kind of scripture but but after thousand of years it is proven no one capable (remember we have more than 16 millions Arab Christians in Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan Israel etc all failed to accept that challenge; and Muhammad (pbuh) an illiterate capable of doing it?

    4) I am sorry to redundantly repeat this: it is widely known worldwide that Holy Bible contradicts itself. To me I cannot accept such a reality. Unless if we confirm or accept that “it was corrupted”. Just to know your position in these issues

    I think Quran does not say Mary in those 2 verses to be the same person of Mary (Jesus mother). Perhaps you (or any other peoples) thought by those 2 verses, Quran says that. Pls do not interpret on our own idea.-Nasaei Ahmad

    1) The Spirit of God, for none is holy but God alone. This would be equivalent to Ruh-Allah in Arabic, rather than Ruh-Kudus which is used for Jibril.

    2) It depends on the definition. I believe that God did not dictate the Bible word for word to the human writers, but instead inspired them with truths which they then wrote out according to their own individual styles. This is why you have styles as diverse as David’s poetic Psalms, Luke’s systematic account in Acts and Peter’s lousy Greek in his letters. A good comparison would be a speech by Ronald Reagan – not every single word in it was actually written by him, as he hired speechwriters. But he would have read through the whole speech and given his approval to it before reading it out, thus making it ‘A speech by Ronald Reagan’.

    3) Personally, I would rather not speculate why he wrote (or took credit for writing) the Quran. I contend that the standard of ‘a scripture/writing comparable to the Quran’ is so subjective, it doesn’t matter how good or bad a piece of manmade writing is – Muslims would still say it isn’t comparable! After all, how does one objectively rate or measure literature?

    4) My position is simple – the Holy Bible does not contradict itself, and the ‘widespread known’ you talk about is merely rumour, conjecture and ignorant repitition of myths. Therefore, there is no issue of ‘corruption’. I offer two simple tests: One, quote me one instance at a time that you think is proof that the Bible contradicts itself, and I will debunk the claim. Two, compare the large amount of pre-Christianity documents available to study against the modern Bible.

    On the Quran speaking about Miram/Mariyam, may I ask how do you yourself interpret it? Here it is again:

    At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: “O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

    “O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!” Sura 19:27-28

    Perhaps it is my ignorance or confusion, but it seems to be saying that the mother of Jesus is the sister of Aaron.

    Please help my understanding of this passage of the Quran.

  135. Scott Thong Says:

    Back to the ‘core issues’ that we disagree or differ, I think because we measure something by the different yardsticks. Take for example “God incarnate”.

    Incarnation might be something noble and may take place all along in Christinity believe. I dont know. However in Islam, God said in surah Al Ikhlas, He is NOT like anything. Not even like any of our mind wanders or imagination because God is not new (all His creatures are relatively new in comparison to Him). Therefore God will never appear in the form of any man, shape or form. No man in history has seen God image.

    -Nasaei Ahmad

    I agree that our viewpoints and understanding are influenced by our different backgrounds.

    I disagree that just because God is not like anything, it automatically means that God cannot appear in the form of something. If God appears as a human man, that is not His true form – merely a temporary ‘disguise’, if you will.

  136. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Brther Scott, my general understanding, as a regular Muslim and as believed by Muslim scholars, verses 27-28 of Surah 19 doesn’t refer to Mary the mother of Jesus (pbuh). Thus the baby she carried/ cuddled was not Jesus as some people conjure. However, with inadequate knowledge, I am not qualified to explain this particular issue. Godwilling I’ll get back to you later (if I have the details, or scholar explanations why it was a different Mary – spelling the same, yes).

    In the Quran, if you aware, there many, many statements that do not detailed out every single thing/ issue. Quran also doen’t tell the specific way..how to perform solat / pray. But some hadith explained it clearly. So, a commoner Muslim should not depend on his/her guesswork to interpret such a subtle verse. Let me take one or two example. If you read Quran you will “meet” a verse saying “over it are nineteenth”. Nineteen what ??
    Nobody knows exactly what it is. In surah al Kauthar, (the shortest surah – with 3 verses only) “kauthar” is mentioned. No one knows what kauthar is, though Muslim scholars said one or two hadiths said it was a kind of well or river in the hereafter. If you translate “kauthar” you will get a different meaning (in English etc) – nothing to do with any well, river or water spring etc.

    By the way I hope you take your time to listen to another qualified person, Dr. Jerald Dirks who holds Phd and Master degree in religion – from Havard ! (www.metacafe.com/watch/2662480). Or you can also try under the title “From Jesus to Muhammad, Youtube, Jerald Dirks”.

    I would suggest also you take time to listen to Joshua Evans. Just type ‘Joshua Evans, Youtube’. I think Jerald Dirks is better (hope you get the right tape of him-he has several on youtube)- just to listen what other’s opinion. That’s it.

    A former priest which produced many useful websites is Yusuf Estes. Pls listen and visit his also, then we will exchange views. Thanks

    A former

  137. Scott Thong Says:

    Brther Scott, my general understanding, as a regular Muslim and as believed by Muslim scholars, verses 27-28 of Surah 19 doesn’t refer to Mary the mother of Jesus (pbuh). Thus the baby she carried/ cuddled was not Jesus as some people conjure.

    Ah, it is just as how regular Christians and Christian scholars believe that the Bible contains no contradictions or pornography! So that matter is settled, and so easily too I might add!

    Let me take one or two example. If you read Quran you will “meet” a verse saying “over it are nineteenth”. Nineteen what ??
    Nobody knows exactly what it is. In surah al Kauthar, (the shortest surah – with 3 verses only) “kauthar” is mentioned. No one knows what kauthar is, though Muslim scholars said one or two hadiths said it was a kind of well or river in the hereafter.

    This is similar to the Bible, where the meanings of some ancient Hebrew or Greek terms which are no longer commonly used are uncertain. Usually, a NIV Bible will contain footnotes explaining that a certain word is not fully understood.

  138. Scott Thong Says:

    In the Quran, if you aware, there many, many statements that do not detailed out every single thing/ issue. Quran also doen’t tell the specific way..how to perform solat / pray. But some hadith explained it clearly.

    So do you consider the Hadiths to be an accurate and true account of the life, sayings and actions of the prophet Mohammad? Or at least some, such as the more highly trusted Sahih Bukhari?

  139. ruth Says:

    Right from the garden of eden satan has tried to usurp God’s position…The Tree of life was God’s wisdom…Proverbs 3 -18, 19..
    Satan usurped this with the other tree.. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was also wisdom, but it was satans wisdom, not Gods.Satan has continued to counterfeit God throughout time..
    He counterfeited God calling Abraham out of the astrology worship…He called several men out of the astrology worship and proclaimed to them there is only one God not many as astrology taught… However this one God that satan proclaimed was the Sun God of astrology..
    He merely monotheised astrology worship…This is recorded in history…
    Satan just about outdid himself with his counterfeit of the real messiah Jesus..His counterfeit of Jesus also claimed blood lines to Abraham as did Jesus.. The counterfeit brought a covenant gospel as did Jesus… The counterfeit claimed to be the holy ghost comforter who is really Jesus…The counterfeit messiah counterfeited all the works of Jesus..He said he was the way, the truth, the light, the intercessor, the word of God, said he ascended into heaven, descended into hell and promised to return in judgment hour….It is very easy to see that mohammed was this counterfeit messiah… He also said when he returns he would have the name he left his descendents.. That name is HUSSEIN via his grandsons..Brings to mind barack HUSSEIN Obama..
    The bible speaks of satan and his religious followers in Isaiiah 14 -12-23 and Rev 3-9, 10 and of course rev 13 and rev 17 …This is satans last battle against God and man.. He loses forever this time..
    How else would satan rise up and be like God except by saying he is the real God of Abraham…

  140. caecilia Says:

    Matthew 24 v 24

    24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

  141. His Cups Says:

    Jeremiah Wright, now estranged (spiritual mentor for 20 years) to the president of the United States, surfaced Tuesday, and he saw a shadow–the shadow of “them Jews,” as the Daily Press of Newport News, Va., reports:

    Wright told the Daily Press that he has not spoken to his former church member since [Barack] Obama became president, and he implied that the White House won’t allow Obama to talk to him.

    “Them Jews ain’t going to let him talk to me,” Wright said. “I told my baby daughter that he’ll talk to me in five years when he’s a lame duck, or in eight years when he’s out of office. . . .

    “They will not let him to talk to somebody who calls a spade what it is. . . . I said from the beginning: He’s a politician; I’m a pastor. He’s got to do what politicians do.”

  142. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Brother Scott, I am sorry, I inadvertently made a gross mistake above ! Only a qualified Muslim scholar could relate or understand many Quranic messeges but not a commoner Muslim like me. When I checked it out in the Quran, it is true, it was Mary (Jesus mother) and the baby she was carrying was Jesus as an infant. This passage (of 19: 27-28 and many related verses there were not subtle or ambiguous but straight forward, clear cut verses. Sorry again.

    So, your problem is that Aaron (Harun) is said to “sister of Maray” (“O Mary..sister of Aaron). How come ?? As we know Harun was brother of Moses (Musa) and they lived thousands of years earlier, in Pharoah era, right ? It cannot be. BUt wait a minute !

    If we read Quran, we will see quite many occasions for instance, God said : “O sons of Adam…” ; “O Israel / O sons children of Israel” etc.

    On the other example, “Abraham talked/ called his father..” and so forth. Actually it was NOT his father, but his elder, yet Quran regarded the man as “father” of Abraham. Similarly, mankind is referred to a “sons of Adam” by Quran. Am I son of Adam ? No, I am one of his distant grand, grand children.

    It is something like “nickname”, respecful “title” given to certain men/ peoples. Why? I am not sure.

    In Arab tradition even before Islam many men bear the nicknames. For example Abu Bakar As Siddique. “As-Siddique is actually not his name, but
    becoming part of his identical name given by his peoples to demonstrate this noble man’s character (as siddique means “always truthful, or truly).
    Many many Arab (till today) have additional “nickname”, like Al- Assad (“lion”), so no wonder some warrior are called “warrior of the desert” etc.

    And peoples called many caliphs “Amirul mukminin” (meaning “The Head of all believers”).

    Even Prophet Muhammad himself, his real name was Abu Qassim. “Muhammad is a “gelaran” for his righteous, truthful etc.

    So.. may be by this fashion Mary was called “sister of Aaron” in comparison of their righteousness or else, (like “son of Adam” ) whereas not realy “a son”. Scholar would be able to clarify this.

  143. Scott Thong Says:

    Ah Nasaei, you have given a very well researched/well thought out response! I am impressed by your line of reasoning.

    Might I then ask, would it be acceptable to you then if the title ‘Son of God’ merely refers to the character of Jesus, and does not literally mean that God has a genetic offspring?

  144. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks Brthr. Scott for the response. By that facts/ logic (of the true situation about use of “titles”, nickames in Arab tradition)therefore, to me, one cannot simply concludes Quran made a wrong statement as they thought. Should peoples think Muhammad was the writer/ author of the Quran, he might have made it in many other areas or things, for instance he says “total number of stars in the sky is 250,000″ (whereas it is untrue). Or he might have said something else clearly incorrect or ridiculous.

    But in this particular issue, as I said, not everybody understand or know exactly why/ what it is, even ulamak or scholar. Many, many verses remained so forever.

    Now you say (somehow) it is also similar to “Son of God” situation, when you all just called him “son of God” but not really meant it !

    If I’m not mistaken our Christian brothers and sisters REALLY thought that Jesus is the REAL son of God, not withstanding whether he was ‘biological’ (like the rest) or otherwise; and whether he went thru’ normal ‘process’ (ot not).

    What you wanted to emphasize actually ? Once again, if we asked Christians “Is Jesus really son of God?” (what do you think their answer will be); or if they are asked : “Jesus is NOT Son of God??” (what is their answer !).

    Brother Scott, I really hope you take time to listen to what other have to say – i.e the website youtube that I mentioned above. You’ll lose nothing to just listen to anything. I hope you will watch/ listen to ALL the obovementioned youtubes. It is very good also to listen to live Quran recital on ‘quranexplorer.com’ where you can feel, experience whether it is like normal Arabic or else.. (it is NOT!). This quranexplores site has instant translation and you can choose any reciter you prefer (I prefer Mishari Rashid and Saad Al-Ghamdi – two best ones before you comment further in our communication. The language also optional – you can choose Englis for the best lstening. There’s also Malay/ French, Deutch, Indon etc. Take your time. Thanks.

  145. Scott Thong Says:

    We do believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but my point is that ‘Son of God’ does not have mean that Jesus is the genetic or sexual offspring of God.

    As I have said before, the Quran says that ‘Allah does not have walad‘ (walad = son by sexual union). Christians agree with this 100%. Only cults and deviant teachings (such as Mormonism) say that God had sex with Mary, which mainstream Christians view as blasphemy!

    What I am saying is that Jesus is God’s son in the sense of ibn (ibn = son in name/title). He existed at the beginning of time with God, and the way they interact is like that of a father and a son. Jesus listens to God and does whatever God asks, and God gives all of creation to Jesus to rule as an ‘inheritance’. (Let’s not get into the Trinity and Father = Son at this point.)

    One could even say that Jesus is like an adopted son to God… Just like you were saying how people in the Quran were given titles!

    So if Jesus is the ‘Son of God’ in the sense that it is His title, God views Him as a son in relationship, and Jesus is NOT God’s son through physical union with a woman… Do you find that acceptable?

  146. ruth Says:

    The Bible speaks of sons of god and also of sons of satan…These are made thus by the spirit that indwells them.. God’s spirit indells Christians and satan’s spirit indwells his children…God is a spirit.. He does not reproduce of the flesh as men do..He reproduces of his sprit… Men and women who god indwells are considered sons of god….Likewise with satan’s children
    Adam was a son of God untill he believed the lies of the serpent.. He lost God’s likeness and image and became like the serpent i.e. satan (Genesis 3-22).Jesus came as Son of God and when we accept Him we are restored as So’s of God..
    Genesis 1-1 In the beginning God…. John 1-1 In the beginning was the wrod and the word was with God and the word was God.. and as many as received Him to them gave he ower to becomne the sons of god;;;Beloved now are we the sons of god, It does yet appear what we shall be but when He shall appear we shall be like him..

  147. Scott Thong Says:

    Nasaei, have you heard of the Sana’a Quran? It is dated to much older than Uthman’s authoritative version and differs greatly from modern Qurans. What do you think about it and its implications?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscripts

    http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2009/06/sana-qurans-proof-koran-is-poorly.html

  148. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    About 4 years ago when I was searching on internet about issues (articles) that attacked Quran, I accidentally read article wrote by a German reseacher Puin’s himself. He among others said, Quran is somewhat “a cocktail” of scripture – to mean a “mixture” of many different sources. Who said that ? – Puin! Who was Puin ? Did he eloquence enough or well verse in Arabic ? I don’t know.

    Among others Puin said, the dilapidated ancient parchments he was working in Yemen was so ‘doubtful’, minor variations, unusual compilation etc. I did not pay much attention to this man’s very own idea, becase I didn’t know his intergrity, his motive and the most important whether is really understand Arabic/ classic Arabic in order to reseach succesfully.

    He also said “Muslims were afraid” to let this thing known to the world – more or less to my understanding. I’ll try to retrieve and find again that article on internet. Who claimed so ? Puin !

  149. Scott Thong Says:

    Gerd R. Puin

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerd_R._Puin – Authority on Qur’anic historical orthography. Specialist in Arabic calligraphy.

  150. Scott Thong Says:

    Gerd R. Puin

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerd_R._Puin – Authority on Qur’anic historical orthography. Specialist in Arabic calligraphy.

  151. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Actually I have no idea about Puin and his works on ancient Quran etc. In Islamic world there was no “commotions”, heavy responses or “panic” ever take place after Puin published his reseach then. Even in the West as well, as we noticed, there was no big deal with regard to Puin’s ‘discovery’. And I don’t think he is ‘more Arab’ than the Arabs themselves. In his article (that I read) he did not describe in a specific way or proof what made them differ, if any, (he didn’t even mention about difference compare to which Quranic texts etc) I think. He just casting his doubts. Puin pointed that that manuscript was not been manage or attended by nobody, dilapidated, scaterred and spoilt by temperature and maybe even
    mices. That was the evarall picture from my understanding.

    After reading it for the first time years ago, I asked a Yemeni student in my university (currently we have more than 100 Yemeni here) – now the said student graduted in PhD in Accountancy and returned to Yemen). He had no idea about Puin discovery. I think Puin didn’t disclose or make public his research in Yemen. He instead published anywhere else in the world. Otherwise how come not many people respond to his work..

  152. ruth Says:

    Nasaei.. maybe the Islamic mullahs did not make it known about the koran fragments lest they contridict their version of the koran and people lose faith..
    All I know is the Koran say allah taught men to write with a pen…. but Enoch said one of the fallen angels taught men to write…
    Penemue taught the art of writing with pen and ink.Look it up…I have found many mistakes and strange things in the Koran.. For instance .I believe malik is one of allah’s names.. but this is the name used for the death angel too..Look it up on line..
    Koran 1-1 says All ah is the god of the worlds…The bible says satan is the god of the world..
    You would be wise to research things diligently..

  153. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks Ruth.. I have no idea of what you’ve said. The problem with us is that as I said before in this Scott’s Thong blog, we ‘measure’ things using the different yardsticks. Maybe to you, anythong against Bible is wrong. On the other hand to me, anything contradicts Quran is unacceptable and wrong. So..? We go nowhere afer all.

    I would suggest we should start talking about what Bible’s statement/or verses that correct or true.. that confirmed by modern science theories. (What Quran’s prophesies, verses that conform with it as well).

    WE believe something is true. Sometimes we were ‘so sure’ of it. Who knows for sure his/ her idea is absolutely correct ? Thus what I’m saying might be wrong (or right). Yours are the same !

  154. Scott Thong Says:

    That’s a good point, Nasaei. Since we are comparing two faiths which each claim to be correct from a philosophical or religious point of view, we must use a neutral and objective test to judge between them – to put it simply, a test that even an atheist scientist could accept.

    Your suggestion of scientific fact is a good one. I can also suggest textual accuracy/integrity, historical proof and internal correctness (i.e. no self-contradiction).

  155. Scott Thong Says:

    Before we move on to the objective arguments, how about sharing the subjective reasons why you prefer your faith?

    For me, I prefer Christianity because it has a God who is not just the creator and master of humans, but also a father and a friend. It has a God who cares for us on a personal level. A God who loves us so much, that He would sacrifice everything to bring us back to Him (in the form of Jesus’ death).

    In Christianity, we can know God – not just know about Him and His commands, but know Him on a personal basis, as someone who will actually listen and care when we have troubles that we want to share.

    In Christianity, we don’thave to earn our way to heaven – it is a free gift from God paid for by Jesus, all we have to do is accept it (through Jesus). And let’s be honest, who among us ordinary humans can do enough good to outweigh all the bad?

    That’s my subjective reaons why I prefer Christianity. How about you?

  156. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks. You know Br. Scott, to reason out with atheists are very hard.., I mean to convince them with religion. Much easier to explain it to peoples who is a believer in any religion. They (atheists) are simply naive, very stubborn. And somehow like you explain religion to an aborigine. I’m not saying they do not understand it, but the’re people who look at thing by eyes only (not by heart and mind). That’s why they claim that they are the ‘reasonable’ peoples who only deals with facts, proof and ‘rational’ and
    science (so to them, others who believe in religion are irrational !) “Pseudo rational” I maybe..

    Why am I a Muslim? Beyond the shadow of doubts that Islam is the truth (like you believe, you feel towards Jesus and Christianity I guess..). Don’t be surprised, we Muslim (all Muslims) believe Isa Ibn Maryam (Jesus pbuh) and all the prophets mentioned in the Quran were MUSLIMS ! They all submissively surrendered to one God, The Almighty, the “lord” the Creater, the one and only.

    I know many says in Christianity they feel closer or ‘nearer’ to Jesus/ God, and in Islam (they said) ‘God is far, far away..

    I don’t feel so. I believe if you don’t care about God..the more you forget God, the more you feel God is far, far away ! It depends on you. God doesn’t depend on us but the vice versa, the other way round.

    And I also heard, our Christian brothers and sisters claimed, in Christianity, it is pretty sure..meaning that believers are rest arrured of salvation. In Islam (they said) no such assurances. Yeah, there are only statements in Quran.. for those who do good deeds will be rewarded greatly in afterlife / hearafter. But no definite term of assurance for any individuals. (However many believe thet Prophet and his 4 closest companions -Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali) deserve it definitely). To me, whoever (muslims) that whole heartedly obeys Allah, I mean righteous and pious Muslims will be reawarded abudantly, eternally. Only God knows best.

    We can start ‘dealing’ with those harbi/ dhimmi (atheists). I used to respond to an ardent atheist who post lies on the net about Islam before. And we could also provide proof of what Quran and Bible’s statements that confirmed by modern science soon.

  157. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks. You know Br. Scott, to reason out with atheists are very hard.., I mean to convince them with religion. Much easier to explain it to peoples who is a believer in any religion. They (atheists) are simply naive, very stubborn. And somehow like you explain religion to an aborigine. I’m not saying they do not understand it, but the’re people who look at thing by eyes only (not by heart and mind). That’s why they claim that they are the ‘reasonable’ peoples who only deals with facts, proof and ‘rational’ and science (so to them, others who believe in religion are irrational !) “Pseudo rational” I maybe..

    Why am I a Muslim? Beyond the shadow of doubts that Islam is the truth (like you believe, you feel towards Jesus and Christianity I guess..). Don’t be surprised, we Muslim (all Muslims) believe Isa Ibn Maryam (Jesus pbuh) and all the prophets mentioned in the Quran were MUSLIMS ! They all submissively surrendered to one God, The Almighty, the “lord” the Creater, the one and only.

    I know many says in Christianity they feel closer or ‘nearer’ to Jesus/ God, and in Islam (they said) ‘God is far, far away..

    I don’t feel so. I believe if you don’t care about God..the more you forget God, the more you feel God is far, far away ! It depends on you. God doesn’t depend on us but the vice versa, the other way round.

    And I also heard, our Christian brothers and sisters claimed, in Christianity, it is pretty sure..meaning that believers are rest arrured of salvation. In Islam (they said) no such assurances. Yeah, there are only statements in Quran.. for those who do good deeds will be rewarded greatly in afterlife / hearafter. But no definite term of assurance for any individuals. (However many believe thet Prophet and his 4 closest companions -Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali) deserve it definitely). To me, whoever (muslims) that whole heartedly obeys Allah, I mean righteous and pious Muslims will be reawarded abudantly, eternally. Only God knows best.

    We can start ‘dealing’ with those harbi/ dhimmi (atheists). I used to respond to an ardent atheist who post lies on the net about Islam before. And we could also provide proof of what Quran and Bible’s statements that confirmed by modern science soon.

  158. Scott Thong Says:

    Don’t be surprised, we Muslim (all Muslims) believe Isa Ibn Maryam (Jesus pbuh) and all the prophets mentioned in the Quran were MUSLIMS ! They all submissively surrendered to one God, The Almighty, the “lord” the Creater, the one and only.

    Nasaei, if you look on my main page top right corner, you will see the following about me:

    Free thinking, but not a Free Thinker.
    A Christian and a scientist, but not a Christian Scientist.
    Believing in a universal church, but not a Catholic.
    Trying to be a saint in these latter days, but not a Latter Day Saint.
    A witness for Jehovah, but not a Jehovah’s Witness.
    Submitted to God, but not a Muslim.
    Seeking knowledge, but not a Gnostic.
    Rational in thinking, but not a Rationalist.
    Upholding humanity, but not a Humanist.
    A supporter of liberation, but not a Liberal.
    A supporter of democracy, but not a Democrat.
    Acknowledging the importance of social values, but not a Socialist.
    Seeking and valuing truth, but not a Truther.

    As you can see, just because some labels have certain narrow definitions, does not mean that everyone who fits that definition is automatically a ‘member’ of that group! After all, you yourself are not a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) just because you are trying to live as a good person, are you?

    In one sense of the word, yes, all the prophets can be considered Muslims because they were ‘submitted to the Almighty’. But in a more specific sense, Moses and Solomon and so on were not Muslims, as they did not follow the Quran (which had not been revealed yet). Rather, they were all monotheists but specifically would be considered followers of Judaism as they worshiped a God whose name they thought to be YHWH (rather than Allah).

    If I were to use a similar definition as you mentioned, I could say that all the prophets were Christians because they believed that the Almighty is their salvation… Since Jesus’ name Yeshu means ‘YHWH is salvation’.

    I know many says in Christianity they feel closer or ‘nearer’ to Jesus/ God, and in Islam (they said) ‘God is far, far away..

    I don’t feel so. I believe if you don’t care about God..the more you forget God, the more you feel God is far, far away ! It depends on you. God doesn’t depend on us but the vice versa, the other way round.

    Agreed. But is it thinkable for Allah to comfort an unmarried, pregnant teenage girl who has just had her heart broken by an insincere suitor, telling her it’s all right and He still loves her no matter what mistakes she has made, the way a forgiving father would gently speak to his own daughter? That is the idea of ‘closeness’ in Christianity (as demonstrated by father in the Parable of the Prodigal Son).

    We can start ‘dealing’ with those harbi/ dhimmi (atheists).

    I am familiar with those terms, but I believe that harbi actually means a person that Muslims are supposed to make war against, and dhimmi is any non-Muslim who pays the jizya tax and lives as a second-class citizen under Muslim rule.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_world_in_Islam#Dar_al-Harb – The term refers to the relationship between an Islamic state and neighbouring non-Muslim states with whom it has not signed a peace treaty or pact.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi – a non-Muslim subject of a state governed in accordance with sharia law, required loyalty to the empire, and a poll tax known as the jizya.

    I think zindik would be more accurate for atheists, in particular mu’attila:

    http://www.darkfiber.com/atheisms/atheisms/zindiq.html – mu’attila, who deny the creation and the Creator, reducing the world to an unstable mixture of the four elements

    Sounds like atheist denial of the supernatural and focus of science to me! Shirk would be more for Hindus or ancestor worship. But both are considered great sins in islam, are they punishable by death under Islam?

  159. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Br. Scott.. polemic on the status of the earlier prophets (including Jesus) should be laid to rest or ‘defer’ for now. I was telling you what Muslim believe on it. Of course we have different positions.

    Your terminology on dhimmi and harbi are correct.

    Regarding syariah ‘penal code’, I think Islamic jurisdiction is for Muslims only. So, non believers are irrelevant. As in the case of apostate, i.e a Muslim who left. I know Christianity is more open – anyone is free to come and go. The apostate law is to strictly warn, to stop the ‘cancerous act’, to protect the whole ummah maybe. So, (to me) Islam doesn’t force anyone to be Muslim, like we do not force anyone to own a car, but once owned, he must abide by the rules – have licence, drive the car according to the law, not jump red light etc). Law on vehicles/ cars and pedesterians are the same. Just like if you choose to be a member or any organization, once you are a member, you must abide its rules.

  160. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Regarding the penalty, one or two Muslim scholars say capital penalty for an apostate is not right. Syeikh Dr. Taha Jabir Al-Alwwmi is the one who opposes.

  161. Scott Thong Says:

    Your terminology on dhimmi and harbi are correct.

    Regarding syariah ‘penal code’, I think Islamic jurisdiction is for Muslims only. So, non believers are irrelevant.

    However, the very concept of ‘dhimmi’ means that nonMuslims must submit to Islamic law and standards.

    The apostate law is to strictly warn, to stop the ‘cancerous act’, to protect the whole ummah maybe. So, (to me) Islam doesn’t force anyone to be Muslim, like we do not force anyone to own a car, but once owned, he must abide by the rules

    This is a problem when people did not choose to become Muslim, such as children born into a Muslim family. What solution do you suggest for such people? Can they be allowed to choose for themselves once they reach a certain age?

    And you should know that there are many who have chosen imprisonment or even death over remaining in their former belief system, because the strength of a person’s conviction is greater than the fear of punishment. After all, what good is it to gain the world but lose your soul?

  162. ruth Says:

    If the Koran and Allah are God’s final plan for man forget it.. *** is a bloodthirsty entity that sanctions the murder of your own family members…This is same as the ancient human sacrifice to the devil idols…
    Islam is a religion of force.. If this were not so they would not be so afraid of other religions and forbid the peoseltying of them…
    The real God of Ab raham gave Adam and Eve a choice in the Garden of Eden.. They were free to choose god’s wisdom vwhich was the tree of life or they could choose the serpents wisdom which was the tree of knowledge of good and evil..I think maybe this Genesis story is still true today. via God’s wisdom the Bible and allah’s verions the Koran..

  163. Scott Thong Says:

    Ruth, I appreciate your contributions to this discussion here… But do realize that I am in Malaysia, and even remarks by commentors that some parties consider ‘provocative’ or ‘incendiary’ or ‘insulting’ to Islam can result in me being arrested!

    Try to tone down a little, or at least use more metaphors, ok?

  164. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Let Ruth says what he wants. Anyone can honestly ask himself a question
    to check, if any attack or insult to ANY RELIGION is the work of an insane man, ignorant or invalid (lie etc) or else:

    In any part of the world, attacks NORMALLY/ USUALLY come from:

    i) Scholars, researchers, academicians (professors, dean etc)
    ii) Laymen, men in the street, the unlearned (IGNORANTS with little
    knowledge)
    iii) Politicians/ leaders

    The sure answer is (ii) definitely ! The IGNORANT. Correct me if I’m wrong ! tq

  165. Scott Thong Says:

    But Nasaei, the very people you quote attacking Christianity and the Bible are scholars, researchers, academicians (professors, dean etc)… Such as Ahmad Deedat. Doesn’t that contradict your statement that the IGNORANT are the ones who usually attack?

  166. ruth Says:

    Speaking of attacks on religion, does not Islam attack Christianity and the life and words of Jesus…
    They have twisted and changed the Bible to fit their doctrines….
    Jesus said mankind will be judged by HIS WORDS… He knew of the many false gospels including some even in Christianity and including koran that would change, omit and lie about the Gospel of Christ..This of course is done to their own destruction..
    Jesus said only the elect will not be deceived…The bible says repeatedly you must believe in the son of God or you are already condemned (from Adam’s sin)…..Therefore no muslim can be part of the elect unless they change direction..

  167. ruth Says:

    The picutres of Obama in this site shows exactly how Obama convinced people he is a messiah…He is a master at deceiving..He is putting seeds in our minds via pictures… His present day plan is to convince us that America’s July 4th celebration is about muslims.. via his inviting Iranian muslims to a July 4th white house party….And allowing the largest muslim gathering in USA on July 4th in Washington D.C..It will look like a muslim celebration in Washington D.C. on July 4th..

    I think you may have missed one of Obama’s deceptive pictures.. It was only available for a limited time.. It is an obama tree of life poster .. This tree of life poster coupled with his promise to make a kingdom on earth makes him look like the returned Jesus..Isn’t that what antichrist does??? Impersonate God/Jesus…??? The picture can be seen on the artist’s site…
    Scott Hensen..http://blog.iso50.com/2008/05/23/iso50-obama-progress-print-out-now/
    Personally I think this is the other tree.. Satan’s wisdom tree of knowledge of good and evil..

  168. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I mean attack in the uncivilized manner. Scholars tells you the facts, maybe face to face like in a debate (where the the opposite site were given equal opportunity to respond immediately. And debate is been witnessed/ by many qualified participant, or other sholars as well. If you view it as an “attack”, then everything that goes against your view, you called it “attacks”.

  169. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Last time I exchanged views and emails with an avid atheist on the internet. He was adamant, unwaived whatsoever that the universe (all planets, galaxies and nebulas, solar system and all life came into existence by a chance (not created by God). To him, this universe is a ‘mystery’ – his very own word.

    So I asked him, whether he agree with the most scientists that the universe had a beginning. He said ‘yes’. He agreed that at one time, billion of years ago when there was no space and time, before the ‘big bang’ there was nothing exist. Therefore, at that particular time no matters, substance, gaseous particles or atom etc ever exist. He agreed.

    Then I said that was very interesting to me, it really bogged my mind and like to know where does matter come from, since they were all didn’t even exist then ? Today we see.. soil, sand, water, planets, air etc. Where did these thinge come from, since all were never existed then, not even in gaseous form at that particular time..

    He couldn’t satisfy me with his explanations. He just advice me to read on the net about evolution process. I said, if that was the case, apparently he (an atheist) was not sure enough of what he believe. How come he believe in something whereas he was not sure enough. It is like he believe in a falsehood or heresay.

    What I want to know is, the starting point the very moment that ‘trigered’ or mutated the atmosphere to change – from zero life/ non exixtence to creation or appearance of the first ever creature. Any atheist can explain it to me ?

  170. Scott Thong Says:

    Thanks for the link, ruth! It’s not as clearly depicting Obama as the Messiah.

    And don’t worry about the 4th of July invite… The Iranians ignored Obama long enough for him to withdraw the invitation!

    “…no one has RSVP’d”

  171. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    The issue of ‘God incarnate’ is not fully understood by non Christians, Muslims at large. Might be some Christians themselves are different in opinion about it. I just like to understand it ‘concept’ from you Brth Scott if I may.

    Do you think Jesus (God) came in person this world and ‘inpersonated’ or ‘incarnated’ as .. as Jesus a man physically, acted as Jesus the Messiah, like in an action film ? Or..how? In other words, can we assume that God the Father was in the body / form of ‘God the Son’ (Jesus). Since Jesus was God, therefore he came down as ‘Jesus’ for us.
    I find it tough to grasp this idea though..who came down as whom… because Jesus is God, and the father is also God – the exactly the same essence. Could you please furnish my understanding on this? Sorry for my ‘clumsy’ depiction and hanky panky English. tq

  172. Scott Thong Says:

    It is ok, Nasaei… The concept of the Trinity is very difficult to grasp. Even people with perfect English and years of studying theology find it a difficult issue!

    It is so troublesome at times, that sometimes we just wish we could forget all about the Trinity. But we cannot do that, because that is what the Bible says.

    Allow to to try and explain it to you.

    First, what is this ‘Trinity’ doctrine? It is the belief that there is ONLY ONE GOD. However, this one God is also THREE DISTINCT PERSONS at the same time.

    (Yes, it is very hard to understand. It seems illogical and impossible. But even in the real world, there exist many phenomena where 3 = 1. For example, in physics the measurement of space is height x width x length. Also in physics, light exists as both wave and particle at the same time. While in chemistry, chemical resonance theory says that a molecule can exist as two or three or more separate forms at the same time.)

    So why do Christians think there is such a thing in the Bible? Isn’t it easier to believe that God = 1, or that God the Father is separate from Jesus and separate from the Holy Spirit?

    Allow me to explain why Christians believe this difficult doctrine.

    1) The Bible says that there is ONLY ONE GOD. For example, Jesus says: “Hear O Israel, the LORD your God, the LORD is one.”

    2) The Bible gives attributes that ONLY GOD DESERVES to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. For example, Jesus is worshiped and can forgive sins. The Holy Spirit is said to be the spirit of God, speaking to the Old Testament prophets.

    Also, it is stated several times very clearly and directly that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, such as God the Father being pierced (i.e. crucified), and the Messiah being born of a virgin yet being called ‘everlasting Father’ and ‘Mighty God’.

    Now, if only 1) were true, then Christianity would be the same as Judaism or Islam – only one God. This is what some non-mainstream sects believe, that Jesus is not divine. Others sects instead believe that Jesus is divine, but is also exactly the same as God the Father – no separation at all, no distinct person.

    Or if only 2) were true, then there would be multiple gods – polytheism. This is what many Muslims think Christianity says. It is also the belief in Hinduism and new age religions.

    But as I said, both 1) and 2) are claimed by the Bible – so Christians believe in the Trinity, where both 1) and 2) apply at the same time.

    I hope you understand now why Christians believe such a difficult thing – it is because the Bible tells us so. It would be much easier to get rid of this idea, but that would be practising falsehood.

    As for incarnated/impersonated… Actually, several times in the Old Testament, humans meet ‘the angel of the LORD’. This is different from normal angels, because the angel of the LORD accepts worship and sacrifices, while ordinary angels always tell humans not to worship them but only worship God. Also, when Moses first met God, God took the form of a bush that burned but didn’t become black or destroyed. God told Moses to remove his shoes, as the ground around the bush was holy.

    Therefore, even before Christianity or Jesus’ birth, God can appear in a ‘physical’ form such as an angel or burning bush according to the Bible. This is not to say that God looks like an angel or a plant! Just that God, the all-powerful, can choose to do anything He wishes.

  173. ruth Says:

    This is how I understand trinity.
    .John 1-1 states that Jesus who is called the Word of god was with god in the beginning and that he was God…If you read Genesis 1-1 it says
    ” IN THE BEGINNING GOD”…It is evident that John who knew Jesus personally thought he was the God of Genesis 1…So do I..

    When God created Adam he breathed his spirit into Adam and this act is what transformed Adam from a lump of clay into a SON OF GOD..
    Adam and Eve however lost this spirit of God when they believed the lies of the serpent and consequently death followed in time..

    So God transformed himself into the image of a man (Jesus) so he could show men the way back to god and restore the spirit that the Adams lost for themselves and all of mankind..It is called rebirth and/or the infilling of the Holy Ghost
    When God himself became a man He also became a Son of God..by the simple fact that God’s spirit indwelled him.. This spirit that indwells men and makes them into sons of God is called Holy Ghost Comforter..

    God is a spirit, He became the man Jesus ..He was both God and man…
    The holy Ghost is that part of God’s spirit that indwells those that accept Jesus as son of god.. This is why the truth that Jesus was Son of God is rejected among unbeleivers..This unbelief actually hinders their salvation..
    John 3-18..He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (condemned already because of Adam’s sin) .

    And lastly, God was an invisible spirit walking and talking in Geneisi 1… Jesus was God’s word or voice.. God was omnipresent and filled all space.. This is the Word John said was made flesh…

    Jesus had no earthly father.. Neither did Adam… Both had God’s indwelling spirit and both were called sons of God…All that accept Jesus as Son of God are filled with God’s holy ghost spirit and and also called sons of god..
    But make no mistake about it JESUS WAS STILL THE GOD OF GENESIS 1-1.. MAN IS NOT..

    If God could create Adam from a lump of clay I am sure he could reproduce a man without the aid of man in the Womb of Mary..

  174. ruth Says:

    I almost forgot the most important part…Wisdom or knowledge cannot save us… We are saved by faith…We have to be saved by faith because man is truly not capable of understanding Gods ways and wisdom and words until God himself reveal it.

    After original sin God said in Genesis 3-22 that man had become like the serpent in understanding good and evil…This mindset which was full of lies and delusional could never understand the mind of God…So God saves us by faith…and then teaches us as we walk with Him…All of mankind is born in the likeness and image of Adam, not God..Jesus alone can restore mankind to the likeness and image of God..and to enlightenment..

  175. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thank you all for the explanations. It is helpful, but still vague to a non Christian like me. I was trying to imagine what Christians have in mind with regard to that particular part of believe. Don’t you think some other Christians might have slightly a different opinion ?

  176. Scott Thong Says:

    Well, just as true Muslims are supposed to believe and practice certain things (such as the Five Pillars of Islam and the Shahada), Christians are supposed to believe the following ‘statements of faith’:

    1) There is only one true God, all the rest are fakes.
    2) Jesus is God who came in the form of a human.
    3) Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected, and rose to heaven again. Only believing and accepting this sacrifice and turning away from our former life of evil can cleanse us of our sins and gain us entry into heaven.
    4) The Holy Spirit is God, who is with each of us even today to guide and help us.
    5) The Bible is inspired by God, and contains His message and guidelines for us.

    There are other points, such as reading the Bible or worshiping God, but I think these are the most important.

    So if someone who claims they are Christian does not believe one or more of those points, he is not considered a true Christian. For instance, the Jehovah’s Witness follow the Bible and worship God, but they do not believe that Jesus is God. They say that Jesus was merely was the first being created by God. So they are not considered proper Christians by the mainstream groups. You can compare this to how Sunni and Shia Muslims view the Ahmadiyya sect, I think.

    To be more strict, there are many who claim they are Christian, but do not ‘live’ it. For example, many Westerners say they are Christian – but they never worship God, never read the Bible, don’t even know what Christians believe, lead sinful lives, and only ever say ‘Jesus Christ’ as a swear word! For comparison, would you accept as ‘Muslim’ someone who claims to follow Allah, but who never attends prayers at the mosque and sleeps around freely with women?

    So in conclusion, Christians are all supposed to believe that Jesus is God, but also that there is only one God. Otherwise, they are no longer considered ‘Christian’ – no matter how much their mouths say it.

  177. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I agree, there are many sects that somehow divided both Christians and Muslims. For Muslims, beside mainstream and dominant Sunni, we also have Shia, Ahmediayah (‘Qadianis’), “sufi”, “salafi” “wahabbi” etc. in Christian maybe you have Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Amishs and many more. I think Catholics and Protestants digree in some very fudamental dogmatic issues that made them quite opposed to each other. For Ahmediyas, to me they are no doubts ajaran sesat. Shias differ in some trivial believe with Sunni esp. with regard the status of Ali.
    Salafi and Wahabbi are okay.

    Why is this happened? Maybe because of the interpretations of the scripture. Not all language or words of the Quran and the Bible are easy to grasp the meaning. Secondly I think in the past, there were some isolated deviationist leaders or individuals who claimed to be well versed, interpreted the scripture by their own way. I read in the newspapers just last week that a man have more than ten wives and commited incest with daughters ..oh what a satanic act ! The man said, surah Al-Mukminun in the Quran allows, and a father has absolute ‘authority’ over his daughters ! You see how a layman with limited knowledge deviated. Maybe satan has played his role effectively.

  178. Scott Thong Says:

    I think Nasaei, Sunni/Shia/Salafi/Wahabbi in Islam are comparable in Protestant Christianity – although they have differing teachings, the teachings are still acceptable.

    Whereas, Ahmadiyya is comparable to Jehovah’s Witness or Mormons – their teachings are too different that they are not accepted by the mainstream.

    This may be a good example: Let’s say this fellow comes out of nowhere and says that he has the latest knowledge from Allah. He claims to follow Mohammad’s example, but also says that he is the NEW last prophet with a NEW revelation from Allah, the Quran Part 2. Surely most of the Muslims of the world would reject his new group! However, many might end up believing him – just as happened with Ayah Pin.

    This is somewhat like how Joseph Smith started the Mormons – he claimed that he found the third part of the Bible after the Old Testament and New Testament, the Book of Mormon. This is just one of the teachings which makes Christians unable to accept Mormons as proper Christians.

    Whereas, most of the denominations such as Baptist or Pentecostal merely differ in their style and understanding of minor points.

  179. Shappy Says:

    Well, I have been trying to make a go of it and blogging my brains out, but I certainly have to give you credit. That was excellently done. I don’t always make such clear points and a lot of blogs I read are poorly written and leave wondering just what were they trying to say.

    I find it so hard to come up with new ideas and rewritting someone else’s work can backfire. Particularly if you don’t know whether they are truly an expert in their field. The longer I work on the internet the more I wonder about most of the content. However, to be fair their are many aurthors in the print media out there that espouse their ideas as fact when they are clearly questionable. It is almost as easy to have a book published as an ebook.

    Anyway, thanks for the great blog.

  180. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Br. Scott, in case, should a Christian friend asked you about the origin of the Quran, – who wrote it etc. what would you say frankly, sincerely ?

    As we know, Muhammad was a confirmed illiterate man. His ability was merely memorizing . And I heard that in Western world this question had been asked to many, many scholars, researchers and academics etc but none were “sensisible” answers. I mean the answers given did not fit or believed by non Muslims themselves.

    A ‘wild’ answer among the many was “from Satan” ! But in the Quran, it says..before you read Quran you should recite..”I seek refuge besides Allah from the damned Satan” (Each time to begin reciting Quran we Muslims read that). It doesn’t make sense if satan himself asks us to read a sentence that condemned him. What is your opinion as a non believer ? Thanks.

  181. Scott Thong Says:

    Well Nasaei, I will sort-of answer your questions in one go by listing the following views of Mohammad, Islam and the Quran. Please do not take offense at the following theories:

    1) Mohammad the conquerer – This view held by some secularists says that Mohammad was an ordinary warlord and conquerer, who created Islam and all its parts (including the Quran) based off Judaism and Christianity merely as a method to build a following, gain the support of Jews and Christians, and aid in capturing territory. Among the arguments for this are: Mohammad was exposed to Judaism and Christianity for many years; Mohammad attempted to convince Jews and Christians that he was the last prophet; Mohammad changed from friendly to them to antagonistic against them after they rejected him as a prophet; Mohammad seemed to gain new revelations that fit the situations perfectly just at the right times to be beneficial to him (such as marrying Zaid’s wife Zaynab, taking slave women as wives).

    2) Mohammad the sincere but mistaken – Similar to view 1, but with the difference of Mohammad sincerely believing he was a prophet following Allah’s will.

    3) After Mohammad’s death – This view held by some secularists says that the Quran was only written and compiled as a document after Mohammad’s death. Therefore it is likely to be inaccurate at best, or a completely made-up collection at worst. Among the arguments for this are: The Quran was only compiled by Caliph Uthman more than 12 years after his death and all other fragments were destroyed; impossible to prove that Mohammad really wrote the Quran as that first copy is missing.

    4) Roman Catholic conspiracy – This very strange view says that Katija, Mohammad’s first wife, was actually a Roman Catholic agent sent by the Pope to manipulate Mohammad – then a simple trader – to become the leader of a powerful force and control the Holy Land on Rome’s behalf. To be honest, I don’t think many people outside of the Chick Tract this story appears in think of it as a serious theory. See http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0117/theprophetindex.asp

    5) Devil’s scheme – Satan wanted to mislead humanity away from the true God, so he disguised himself as an angel of light called Jibril (Satan was after all originally a beautiful angel called Lucifer – meaning the light bringer). Among the arguments for this are: When he had visions Mohammad at first thought that he was demon-possessed and wanted to commit suicide; Mohammad says in Sahih Bukhari that Jibril is the foremost enemy of the Jews among all the angels (traditionally a role reserved for you-know-who); ”I seek refuge besides Allah from the damned Satan” doesn’t refute this theory because Satan is well known to be a liar and cheat. Obviously, saying that you believe this theory to be correct in public (including on a blog) would get you arrested in any Muslim country, and many secular Western ones as well.

    The secular theories seem to support the idea that Mohammad was illiterate, as if he could read, then he would have been able to read the texts of the Jews and Christians, and therefore would not have had his claim to prophethood rejected by them due to his mistaken knowledge about those texts.

  182. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks Br. Scott for your opinion/ comments. I have my own opinion but for the time being I do not intend to debate on your personal view. I think it is good if anyone try to know more about Quran and Bible before we say more/ something (we might be wrong or else). If we can, we should try to know them ‘like our own parents’ (we sometimes thought we know our childs or parents but we do not understand them 100 % maybe). I fully aware that not many of us have the knowledge on par with the world famous scholars of comparative religions such as Dr. Anish Shorrosh, Josh McDowell, John Gilchrist or Ahmad Deedat. To me, I’m learning this very interesting yet very important topic.

    Muslims’ position about Bible is clear. It is from Allah as Quran tells.
    But since Muhammad is the seal of all previous prophets and by the revelation of the last scripture to mankind via him, God made Islam a complete religion for mankind to follow. Muslims believe every earlier prophets were sent to their respective clans/ people; and Quran is the last – for all mankind till the day of judgment. You may not agree on this, that’s okay.

  183. ruth Says:

    Hey Scott, take it easy ..We need you in the battle not in jail…
    please…..

  184. Scott Thong Says:

    Trying my best! Hopefully my neutral and objective language and not advocating any particular point of view is enough of a buffer.

  185. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Yeah Brthr. Scott and Brthr. Ruth ! (I’m quite free at office this week).You know, just know I surfed Youtube just to see AGAIN some of the attacks on Quran and Bible as well. I mean what are their problems with the scriptures actually. (Next time if free I’ll discuss with you what are the issues of “contradictions” they usually objected or raised about Bible and Quran specifically- some of them we have responded may be). I think they are atheists, they are the peoples who usually attacked. I surfed the net (Youtube), and under the exact topic: “Bible contradictions” (or you can also try it site http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXvnz-p6Lm8).

    In thas short vidoe clip with 2 speakers talked about ‘improbabilites’ of truth about the Bible in particular. Since among the many issues, they also refute the verse that says “God created the universe in 6 days” (which all Muslims do also believe); and, Noah’s ark that accommodated lot of creatures on it, (Muslim also believe in this) so, they attack Quran as well.

    Please watch that video soon so that we can discuss it later.

    I know, many more issues that were raised by them. We could talk about certain issues for now. I think you’ll get that clip video easily if you type the title exactly (i.e. “Youtube, Bible contradiction”. Pls watch it.
    Thanks

  186. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    That’s why I said atheists just look at things with just eyes but not heart and mind as well. They might be rational but not smart enough, I think. I appeal to you to watch their another video clip on Youtube to understand their mentality, entitled “10 questions that every intelligent Christians must answer”. Please watch it !

    They asked why God can’t ‘cure’ amputees if He really exists! Then.. if the amputees failed to get back their hands, to those atheists, it is absolute ‘proof’ that God is simply imaginary, and doesn’t not exist ? When I was in America in 1994-1995 I couldn’t see my mother back home in Malaysia then. Was that the proof my that mother doesn’t not exist? What an inanity, what a gibberish !

    In that Youtube video, they (atheists) also ‘proved’ God doesn’t exist because God never ever responded to the hungers’ prayers for help. To them God is simply a myth; imaginary. According to them, the divorce rates among the Christians and non believers are also the same as of non believers. Therefore God is not love and failed to curb such a negatif thing? Please watch that on youtube. Really funny atheists..

    How do you explain this, or explain to them? If I were to ‘explain’ I would prefer explaining the aborigines, rather than to atheists !

  187. Scott Thong Says:

    Their questions apply equally to any Abrahamic faith, Islam included. So how would you answer them if they asked why Allah does not heal innocent children who have fatal diseases? (I already know my own answer, I will share it after you.)

  188. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    How can we discuss or tell something to peoples who appreciate different values of believe ? Atheists thought that their mind is ABSOLUTE truth, God planning or actions must fit their views. Otherwise they are wrong ! Obviously atheists want everythings that happened or took place must be in agreement with their views. God must consult atheists before deciding or planning something.. what a gibberish.

    I cannot represent Muslims’ world view. But as far as I know, every Muslims believe that human beings do not fully understand God’s works or his plans. Our mental capabilities is also NOT absolute and have limitations, therefore we are not perfect. A scientist do not have solution for all things. In fact, scientists fraternity have NOT being able to solve many, many things. As I said before, an atheist could not explain satisfactorily to the question : “where does matter come from ?” , not only that but thousands of other questions remain unsolved.

    This is quite a limited space for us. We can try to tell them later about our believes (not about atheist’s believe…). So human beings cannot understand all things. (yet atheists believe they know all thing?)

    Of course.. like atheists, like a child..we cannot under these :

    i) Why innocent children were “killed” by tsunami last time
    ii) Why a beggar never get money or food fallen from the sky ?
    iii) Why atheists fishermen themselves got more catch than the
    believers’ ?
    iv) Why many prayers ‘never been answered’ by God?

    and thousands of questions more..

    I’ll try to explain Muslims’ believe later. TQ

  189. Scott Thong Says:

    Try citing Suras from the Quran as well when you give your answers. This is to show that you are not simply making answers up, but they actually come from Islam.

    I do the same for Christianity, citing verses from the Bible to show why not all prayers are answered.

  190. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    We have many references in Quran and hadiths that supported Muslim’s believe. In order to save time I just describe my general understanding pertaining to such issues. I will provide some Quran’s statements or verses then. TQ for advice Br. Scott.

  191. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    God does NOT work like us (or any of His creatures). He does not need anything to assist Him. From Islam’s view point, He doesn’t need food, drink, rest, sleep, transportation etc. And remember, we cannot fully understand his planning, his destiny. Our mental capability and our knowledge is also restricted, very limited that we cannot envisage or anticipate far beyond.

    For a man to build a house or any structure for instance, he needs tools, equipments like handsaw, wood planks, hammer nails, bricks etc. But for Allah (God) He doesn’t need one. He doesn’t work like a carpenter. When He wishes or intends something, it is enough for him to just say “kun fayakun”, then anything He wishes exists! We do not believe also God rest on Sunday because He never get tired, sleepy or exhausted.

    In Surah Yassin (36:82-83) that reads : “Verily, when He intends a thing, His command is “Be”,..and it is !” So glory to Him, in Whose hands is the dominion of all things. And to Him will ye all be brought back”.

    My ‘advice’ to atheist, never compare God’s works to your brain logic alone, and that they may not “fit” your rational; remember you cannot read God’s plans. You can NEVER understand His way of doing things.

    Let me relate one possible example. Maybe for certain peoples, he might
    works say : “Oh, I’m a teacher by profession; this I didn’t wish to be when I was in my childhood. I wished to be a police officer instead”

    Maybe God has certain plans that ‘save’ you. If you were a police officer, your type of character can easily fall prey to your ownself (weaknesses) – talking bribe (for example). This might be ‘damaging’ to you. Or, you are a chareless by nature, then you can be exposed to many ‘danger’ (if you are a policeman).

    We see, a beggar asked God for food or money. God doesn’t come in person and say “..Hey..this is your food that you asked for..”. But God touched somebody else’s conscience and filled his heart the feeling of pity, sympathetic towards that begger (for example). Then he gave him some money to buy food. The fact is that, the giver /donor did not control his feeling whether to give or not, to feel pity or otherwise. Who control it ? God !

    So why prayers unanswered? To me, from Muslims’ understanding there are many reasons that we do not really understand. We do not know for sure. But many ulamas say, persons who ate from non-hal sources, his prays will not be ‘entertained’. So does with person who are not kind to their parents. I don’t know. God knows best.

    From Muslim’s understanding also, we (Muslims) do NOT simply make dua’ (prayer) for the sake of the worldly life alone; we asked for the Day of Judgment’s well being. So, our prayers, if not be fulfilled today, Allah reserved for the next. Also some ulamaks say, God is testing your patience. And that asking for His help is considered rewarding and recorded as good deeds too, whether it is fulfilled or not.

    After all, why an agnostic, unbelievers were also granted luxuries of life, ‘get more catch’ etc ?

    We Muslims believe Go’s mercy is so wide. So gracious. He grants everything to anyboby IN THIS WORLD (but NOT in the heareafter for the kafir). In this world, His graciousness and mercy covers all, even little creatures like ants, cat, dogs or man.

    In Surah Baqarah (2: 126) Allah says” “And remember Abraham said: “My Lord, make this City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits, such of them, as believe in Allah (God) and the Last Day..” He (God) said: “Yea, and such as reject faith, for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the tormet of fire, an evil destination (indeed)”

    So, we believe all kafirs, by Allah mercy, get their parts in this world but they they cannot escape the ‘penalty’ in The Day of Judgment.

  192. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Recently my friend from Detroit narrated to me that one day, he witnessed a kind of ‘weird’ thing took place .. The ‘event’ happened at about 6.30pm when he was jogging alone on the suburb walkways. Unbelievable! At first he was surprised looking at something complete unusual in his life! He saw materials looked like iron parts, bars, screws, bolts, composites and plastic components were ‘flying’ over the sky by a typhoon-like cyclone. It looked like a cumulonimbus cloud just about to drop a torrential rain..pushed by quite strong wind and drizzle. Suddenly..to his shock, all those loose materials combined and became one unit and fell on the ground just about 40 meters away from where he stood. When he approached closer, he was in complete shock that a brand new Ford Sedan car wrapped in plastic shield, unscratched fallen from the sky. Unbelievable ! The effect of the fall was tremendous..and massive. However he didn’t dare to remain on the spot. He left the scene..with the car still shaken and ‘hot piece’.

    Would anyone believe this story ? Atheist anyone?

    We the rational people do not believe in anything that happened by chance or by itself . Usually it has originated or made by the ‘maker’. That ‘sedan car’ was made by Ford at its assembly line of the factory, NOT exist by chance as atheists tend to claim or conjure up ! This universe is also the same. Anything ‘happened by chance’ will never have any purpose or function. Simple test can be done to find out if anything happened or took place by chance will result in serving certain purposes or function. If you drop a glass bottle, what does it create ? Mess? debris? Does it (debris, mess) serve any function? None.
    If we drop 100 times, not a single chace does it create any function.

    However, we notice this universe functioned as a perfect system. The Sun, planets, moon, earth in everything in it served and functioning. This is what we called a system, a creation (by who?). God!

    Oxygen for our lungs, vegetation, plants, grains as our food. Water for our drinnks. Fishes in the ocean supply protein that needed by our body. Petroleum, rubber tree, iron,plastic etc for our cars. Impossible to mention million of things and creatures that God created for the benefit of man and other living things. Do not the smart atheists think?

  193. wab2345 Says:

    “Impossible to mention million of things and creatures that God created for the benefit of man and other living things.”

    H1N1 virus, cholera, etc. it`s truly impossible to mention the benefits.

  194. Scott Thong Says:

    Actually, according to the Sin Theory of Evolution, that would be jointly the handiwork of Satan and humanity’s own evil. Go read up.

  195. ruth Says:

    wab2345…Some where along the way some men developed the idea that they are still living in the garden of Eden and so when things go wrong they blame God…
    Whereas the serpent was very specific when he told the Adams they would know GOOD AND EVIL..Know as in to experience both good and evil…
    This world wherein much evil does exist is the world that will end with the return of Jesus..It will be soon..I hope you are ready..

  196. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Wasp2345.. you joked or REALLY unaware that God NOT only created / gives/ provided happiness, but illness, sufferings, miserables as well? I thought all adults knew and acknowledged that. (I am not aware if there are peoples who hope God created anything that are beneficial to them only). I didn’t talk about it last week.

    According to scripture (I mean scripture of my believe, not yours), in the past God made some peoples perished because of their sins (for example their damned homosexual inclining, ungrateful; cruelty, etc., etc). Why ? Only God knows best.

  197. ruth Says:

    Nasaei..Jesus came to show us who and what God is.. He did not make men sick or blind.. He calmed the winds and sea. He fed multitudes.. He did not harm men…. He loved and healed them….
    According to the Bible it was satan who harmed men and expected men to bow down to him…
    The god you know is not the God Christians know…
    The Bible says everything God made was good…He did not make sickness, or sin or hatred , insanity, poverty, etc, pagan gods, etc.,.. These things entered humanity with original sin..
    When men accepted the serpents version of what is good and what is
    evil..
    Jesus came to heal, not to kill..and he died to pay the sin penalty.. He alone is the only one worthy for men to worship..

  198. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks Ruth.. that is (among others), the differences in believe between Islam and its closest kins – Christianity and Judaism maybe. Muslims believe ALL things came from Allah (God). NOT a single thing is not from Him. It is quite difficult to explain this, even to my Muslim peers as well.

    As you might have acknowledged, Muslims believe in five (5) core tenets namely:

    i) Believe in (existence) of Allah (God/ Supreme Being)
    ii) Believe in all prophets (including Jesus, Abraham, Moses etc and
    Muhammad is the Last
    iii) Believe in (the existence) of angels (Archangel Gabriel, Mikaeel, and
    Israfil and so forth)
    iv) Believe in the Day of Judgment
    v) Believe in ‘Qadha and Qadar” (all is destined by God, from God)

    No Muslim is Muslim if he or she doesn’t believe in Jesus as no (ii) above
    I know Jesus doesn’t make people sick or suffer. But God made it. You see.. we do not believe Jesus is god ! He was one of the great prophets. We kow (as stated in the Quran/ hadith) that Jesus cured lepers and the blinds, raised the deaths, etc.

    No 5 (v) is quite difficult to explain, even to my Muslim peers, since it could be mistaken God did the evil or wicked things ! We mean, NOTHING CAN TAKE PLACE without God’s permission. For example, let say you have a gun in your hand right now. Your ‘enemy’ (or let say “an innocent man he is)..is standing right in front of you now. You can CHOOSE between the two – to shoot him; or not to shoot him. You will be held responsible for your choice, and God may (OR) may NOT permit you to do it. However, we believe not a single thing is not from God. As I said, however we cannot say God did the evils, or such things. Only God knows best.

    To me (personally) I don’t believe Jesus is God because (among other things):

    i) God cannot be born (Jesus was born, and in his mother’s womb 9 month as stated by Bible)

    ii) God cannot die

    iii) God has NO beginning nor ending (so I do not believe “…Before Abraham was, I am”.. the Biblical statement to be sufficient proof that Jesus claimed to be God. He never said: “I am God, worship me” or so

    iv) No men capable of killing God whatsoever (not even Jews)

    V) We believe God doesn’t like His creatures (need sleep, drink, transportation (Jesus rode a donkey/ ass according to Bible) like we do. (we are so weak..need everythings even clothes etc). We believe God does not need anything. No need rest on Sunday like us..etc

    vi) We (Muslims) do not believe Jesus life was like an action film. I mean he just came as a human being, portrayed himself like one of us..and that he was not real man (but God’s impersonated/ incarnated). We believe he was REAL as he was (a real man prophets, with blood, heart, feeling etc. So he needs foods, drinks, sleep as recorded by the Bible).

    v) We believe God is NOT like any of his creations (as told by Quran). Therefore God doesn’t have a son, father, or grandfather etc.

    Just to exchange view on our differences.

    i) God

  199. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Br. Scott, in our previous discussions, as we both might have acknowledged, there are some issues which are ‘pending’. I mean, some of your replies did not satisfy my understanding. Though I do not intend to seek or pursue all ‘answers’ from you the learned Christian, however, I would be grateful if you don’t mind to ‘revisit’ some of them again, in particular for one or two issues which no concrete or ‘convincing’ answers given.

    One of them is regarding the status of Jesus that we discussed. I have asked you that from Muslims’ point of view, Jesus cannot be ‘god’, and thnat there were no statements whatsoever in the Bible to show Jesus ever said “I am God, worship me.” or such an explicit statement, except obviously the more ambiguos ones, which to my opinion is insufficient to proof that he was ‘god':

    i) “I and the Father are one..”
    ii) “Before Abraham was, I am.”

    Not to mention, besides this, many other peoples were also called ‘god’ by the Bible.

    Then you replied. You gave me several verses/ biblical statements that mentioned peoples worshipped him. Period. fullstop.

    Did you mean, to proof, or, one absolute criterion to identify as to whether something is god or not is to see..if anyones worship it/ him, then it must be ‘god’.. Is that what you mean? (since you gave me four or five statements to show peoples worshipped Jesus).

    From Muslims perspective, that may not be a criterion. Before the time of Islam, according to many literatures, pagan worshipped calf (young of a cow); sun; moon; or even fire. But all those things were not the true God. I appreciate your further explanation. I’ll ‘revisit’ some other topics again next. TQ

  200. ruth Says:

    Nasaei, Jesus had specific reasons why he did not openly claim to the masses that HE IS GOD..
    One reason was because we are to follow his example…You must remember Adam was a son of god but Adam lost this position when he sinned and followed the serpent…Jesus came to restore men as SONS OF GOD..Remember the serepent told the Adams “YOU WILL BE AS GODS”….Adam was made to be a son of god not as god…..

  201. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks Ruth. Good to exchange views. If you have time, pls. do also explain about the status of Jesus in my posting above. Might be Scott has a different view on it.

  202. Tommy Hilfiger Says:

    Thanks Ruth. Good to exchange views. If you have time, pls. do also explain about the status of Jesus in my posting above. Might be Scott has a different view on it.; Thanks Ruth. Good to exchange views. If you have time, pls. do also explain about the status of Jesus in my posting above. Might be Scott has a different view on it.;;

  203. Scott Thong Says:

    Nasaei, Jesus had specific reasons why he did not openly claim to the masses that HE IS GOD.. – ruth

    Also probably to avoid having to dodge stones every day… Remember when in John 8:58 Jesus said “Before Abraham was, I AM”, the Pharisees picked up stones to stone Him to death with because they realized Jesus was claiming to be God (YHWH, or ‘I AM’ as God revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14).

    It may also be for the same reason why Jesus often spoke in parables to the crowd – so that only those who actually cared enough to take the time to ponder His words would understand the hidden meaning. (They may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding – Mark 4:11-12)

  204. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I hope Br. Scott would allow me to type here in his blog a randomly picked Quranic verses (I guess not very long), for anyone’s glance reading (or to ponder, the better). Actually Quran messages are not strictly for Moslems alone, but for all mankind. May we find this a good reading to furnish our knowledge.

    Surah no LXIV (At-Toghabuun), verses 1-9:

    In the name of God, the Most Gracious, Most Merciful

    1. Whatever is
    In the heavens and
    On earth, doth declare
    The Praises and Glory
    Of God: to Him belongs
    Dominion, and to Him belongs
    Praise: and He has power
    Over all thnigs.

    2. It is He Who has
    Created you; and of you
    Are some that are unbelievers,
    And some that are believers:
    And God sees well
    All that ye do.

    3. He has created the heavens
    And the earth; in just proportions
    And has given you shapes
    Beautiful: and to Him
    Is the final goal.

    4. He knows what is in the heavens;
    And on earth; and He knows what you conceal
    And what you reveal; yea God knows well the (secrets)
    Of all hearts.

    5. Has not the story reached you,
    Of those who rejected faith aforetime?
    So they tasted the evil
    Result of their conduct;
    And they had a grievous penalty.

    6. That was because there
    Came to them apostles
    With clear signs,
    But they said:
    “Shall (mere) human beings direct us?”
    So they rejected (the message) and turned away.
    But God can do without (them);
    And God is free of all needs,
    Worthy of all praises.

    7. The unbelievers think
    That they will not be raised up (for judgment)
    Say: “Yea, by my Lord,
    You shall surely be
    Raised up; then shall ye
    Be told (the truth) of
    All that ye did.
    And that is easy for God”

    8. Believe, therefore, in God
    And His Apostles, and in the Light which We
    Have sent down.
    And God is well acquainted
    With all that you do.

    9. The Day that He assembles
    You (all) faor a Day
    Of Assembly, – thet will be
    A day of mutual loss
    And gain (among you).
    And those who believe
    In God and righteousness
    He will remove from them their ills,
    And He will admit them
    To gardens beneath which rivers flow, to dwell therin,
    Forever: that will be
    The supreme achievement.

    This is quite a typical of reminder of the Quran, however, a different ayat (verse) has a different message. I notice, reading the original Quran is not the same by reading the translation, because we could feel the tranquillity, the effect of the Quran on our heart (can’t be describe by
    simple words). (Of course a non believer doesn not feel anything, unless if God guide them..)

    Have a nice reading.. TQ

  205. Scott Thong Says:

    Nasaei, I have been coming across ‘Mahdi’ and ’12th Imam’ a lot lately, mostly when Iran is being discussed. Can you explain a bit about this topic?

  206. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Well..I guess Muslim knowledge pertaining this mysterious Imam Mahdi is very little, due to the absence of scriptural evidences. However, his purported future emergence is mentioned in several hadiths. Though it is not comprised a major tenet of Islamic believe, we Muslim acknowledge it, since it was mentioned by the Prophets (pbuh). No evidence of the Holy Quran verses or hadiths that elaborated this further.

    As you know, Muslim believes that, prior to the end of the world – perhaps thousand of years nearing the doomsday, there would be a lot of great disarray situations in term of Muslim ‘akidah’ (firm belief of Islam). Widespread act of infidel and betrayals, evils and unthinkable deeds committed and surfaced by mankind. Many of them abandon their faith due to gross loss of iman (belief). And..the emergence of another ‘mystical’ great evil leader called “Dajjal” (aquivalent to “anti-Christ” in meaning). Dajjal, the colossal figure (described by some to possess a single eye), with his great physical power leads and instigates peoples to disobey God. And no ones capable of defeating him except Imam Mahdi. So, the ‘crusade’ against Dajjal is lead by Mahdi. And…

    Do you know what we all (Muslims) really believe? Besides Mahdi, our beloved ‘hero’ is none than Jesus. Yes.. Jesus and Mahdi will ‘demolish’ (kill) Dajjal ! Some peoples say, if the eclipses of moon and son happens in the same Ramadhan month, it is the sign Mahdi would appear.

    Therefore among the many signs the ‘doomsday’ (day of jugment) approaching (besides the situation where many Muslims abandon their believe)..is the emergence of Mahdi, Jesus, and finally sun rises against its norm (anti-clockwise or, from the west) and sets in the east.

    Basically no one knows for sure his identity, time of coming, the power in him, etc. etc. Some say, anything that hinder, damages or diminished the faith or conviction of Muslims can be regarded as true “dajjal” anyone, or any great leader who salvages the ummah is “mahdi”. Only God knows best for the many ‘unclear’ mystics, or unseen things.

  207. ruth Says:

    I have read Islamic literature that says the Mahdi will have Mohammed’s name.. Mohamed had no surviving male heirs to leave his name.. So he said the angel told him to name his grandson HUSSEIN.. This is the name he passed to his offspring… This is the name of many of the imams.. This is the name of the last Imam..
    Iran said they have a prophecy from a 17th century book that Mohamed’s son in law revealed… He said the 12th imam will be a tall black man and will take the governmental reigns in the west..It would apear Obama is the 12 th imam.. But to many Christians he is antichrist.
    Muslim prophecy of the 12th imam says he will redistribute the wealth n the world… Obama is doing that in America.. It also say he will come in peace..

    But the Bible says they will say peace, peace but then cometh sudden destruction…Everythin I have said is available online…

  208. Scott Thong Says:

    Um, but Nasaei… The Islamic idea of Isa also scolds the Christians for worshiping Him, denies being the Son of God or divine, breaks all the crosses and kills all the pigs…

  209. Mike James Says:

    Any ‘Libtards’ that are still drinking the Kool Aid will be in for a rude awakening staring in 2010 when Republicans take back Congress.

  210. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Dear Br. Scott,

    May I seek your opinion again related to he burning of mushaf (Quranic written texts) by Caliph Uthman. As I said before, ACTUALLY in Islamic circle, we Muslim do not think it was “a big deal”. Hardly any “uproar’ ever existed this far by that issue. We do not think it was ill-motivated, though we agree with you “he was not a prophet and thus not free from mistakes”.

    I just like to have your personal views (if I may) from you pertaining to
    the following aspects:

    1) In your opinion why did Uthman burn those mushafs

    2) Did he burn all but one, or some portions of parchments; or certain
    collections ?

    3) Do you think besides the last call for pieces/ papers from
    Khuzaimah (that he gave soon after), was there any more remaining
    parts / portions from other individuals, etc ?

    4) From the information at your disposal, do you think all the hafizs
    (those Prophets’ companions who memorized Quran) died in the
    battles ?

    5) How many variations of collection were there proir to the “burning
    incident?”

    6) Did he (Uthman) act on his own capacity as the Caliph; and as to
    whether he was subjected to criticisms or oppositions by his decicion
    to burn?

    I have not read much historical records except we Muslim acknowledged that Bukhari did narrated in his hadith.

    TQ for response.

  211. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Br. Scott, perhaps you are quite busy these days to furnish me the knowledge with regard to the burning of Quran above.. Pls respond when you free. Tq

  212. YOUSUF GABRIEL Says:

    HEART QURAN AND NUCLEAR PHENOMENON
    By Allama Muhammad Yousuf Gabriel
    The Quran says “Woe to every backbiter, defamer, who amasseth wealth (of this world) and arrangeth it (against the future). He thinketh that his wealth will render him immortal. Nay, for verily he will be cast into Al-Hotama. And what could teach thee what Al-Hotama is? It is fire of Allah, enkindled, which leapeth up onto the hearts. It is (a fire) closed in on them in outstretched columns”.
    (Quran-CIV-Al-Hotama)
    The Quran says “Hotama is a fire which leaps up into the hearts”. The atomists have used the word nucleus, while the Quran has used the word “Heart”. Nucleus and Heart are synonymous. Arab lexicographers have translated the nucleus as “Heart”, and there exists characteristic and functional resemblance between the two. The death of either the nucleus or the heart means the death of the body. Delicacy and sensitivity is the feature associated with both. It is the atomists themselves that call the nucleus as heart. Edward Teller, in 1939 spoke of obtaining energy from the heart of atom in a lecture on atomic energy delivered by him, (Vide the Hydrogen Bomb by James. R. Sheply and Clay Blair Jr. pages 48-49) while passages like the following meet one’s eye when reading the standard text books of atomic physics:-
    “Each fast particle comes from the break up of very heart of a single atom _- The Nucleus — of the radioactive material”.
    (Vide Physics, Physical Science study committee— second edition — D.C. Heath and Company Lexinton, Massachusetts, July 1965 page 130).
    And:-
    “How many heartbeats are in the life-time of a radioactive nucleus which lasts only billionth of a second”.
    (Vide IBID page 21 Short problems)
    Even the part of the atomic reactor wherein the process of the atomic energy generation takes place is called the heart of reactor (Vide Our Nuclear future by Edward Teller and Dr. Albert L. Latter 1958, from a photograph of the reactor).
    Atomic fire leaps up onto the hearts. After the identity between the nucleus and the heart is established, let us show how the atomic fire leaps up onto the hearts. Both in fission and fusion process of the generation of the atomic energy it is the nucleus of the atom that is involved. In the fission process the atomic particle leaps up onto the nucleus of the atom, and disintegrates it, and energy is released. For instance the Neutron leaps up onto the Uranium-235 atom and ejects two neutrons from the nucleus that is the heart of the atom. The broken nucleus like the broken heart is disintegrated, and energy is released. The two ejected neutrons in turn leap up onto the nucleus of other uranium atoms in the lump, and do exactly as the first neutron had done, to wit, that they attack the nucleus of an atom each, and eject therefrom two neutrons each. The nucleus is disintegrated and divided and energy is released. Thus the neutrons keep doubling and ejecting the neutrons from the atomic nuclei and the operation continues till the whole of the lump of uranium explodes. In fusion process the nuclei of several small atoms, say four, are crushed together and the energy is released. Fusion of an atom is not possible until a heat with a temperature of the order of millions of degrees is available. To produce such a temperature is not within the reach of chemical processes. Atomic fire is therefore required and is provided by means of a fission device. The heat thus produced is directed onto the fusile material, say hydrogen. This process is called as the thermonuclear process and perhaps provides the best example of atomic fire’s leaping up onto the hearts. Hydrogen bomb is the example of the thermonuclear process. A fission bomb is placed inside the fusile material, and hydrogen is spread around it in a shell. When the fission bomb is detonated, the tremendous heat liberated leaps up onto the nuclei that is the hearts of the hydrogen atoms and fuses them in groups of four, and the energy is released. And there we see very clearly how the atomic fire leaps upon onto the hearts. This nuclear trait is exclusively of atomic fire and is its distinct feature. However, by just uttering the name of nucleus, the point of leaping upon the hearts is established, because the nuclear energy is the energy produced from the nucleus that is hearts.
    Atomic radiations too leap up onto the nuclei that is hearts. Atomic radiations attack the nuclei of atoms. In inanimate matter they cause transmutations of atoms by disintegrating and changing the order of the nuclei. In living bodies they eject nucleons from the nuclei of atoms, while in the nucleus of the cell they break the chromosomes.
    The effect of radiations is beyond the brain at the level of the heart of life itself. Radiation’s effect the coordination of function at the level where it is beyond the control of the brain. It may be said that they attack the very heart of life itself.
    Radiation’s exceptional attraction toward all that is related to heart in the body. The decided attraction of radiations for all that which is related to heart in the body as against the brain, the nerves and muscles is a fact. Bone-marrow which forms blood corpuscles, and also all the blood forming organs are far more sensitive to the effect of radiation than the brain, the nerves, and the muscles. Further it may be noted that all the multicellular organism, that as a rule are possessed of more elaborated and more perfected circulatory and respiratory system than all the unicellular organism, are more sensitive to the effects of radiation than the unicellular organism. The relation of the circulatory and respiratory system to heart through blood is obvious. It may further be noted that the action of radiations in the absence of oxygen is retarded. And again the relation of oxygen to heart through blood is well known. Just as is the relation of blood with heart.
    The heat flash and radiations of atomic bomb explosion too leap up onto the nuclei that is hearts. Heat-flash of the atomic bomb explosion burns the skin of the exposed persons dark or brown, but it has no time to penetrate further into the body of its victims, yet it kills those who happened to be within a certain distance from the zero point by applying shock to the heart of the victim. The atomic radiations whether emitted by the explosion itself or whether emitted by the fission products, also leap up onto the nuclei of the atoms both in the inanimate matter and in the living body, and do also attack the nuclei of the cell and break the cell chromosomes.
    Atomic fire a nuclear crusher. The Quran has said “Hotama is a crushing fire which leaps up onto the hearts (Quran-Al-Homaza-104). The atomic fire crushes the nuclei of the atoms; hence it is a nuclear crusher that is the crusher of hearts. Atomic fire is a thermonuclear crusher. The Quran has said” Hotama is a fire which leaps up onto the hearts”. The atomists use the term thermonuclear for Hydrogen bomb, for, in the hydrogen bomb, heat is generated by an inner fission device and then the heat is directed onto the outer wrapping of the fusile material, say hydrogen, where the heat impinges on the nuclei of the fusile material, and causes them to fuse together in groups of , say, four. Here we see the atomic fire leaping up onto the nuclei of the atoms of the fusile material in a clear manner. This term thermonuclear proves the anticipative and scientific miracle of the Quran, and the term thermonuclear it is that brings credit to the atomists for the marvel of a term which is indicative of a proper understanding of the phenomenon and the appropriateness in choosing the term to express the phenomenon. The term thermonuclear and the Quran’s word, namely, ” A fire which leaps up onto the hearts”, have been found to be the intertranslation of each other, while the thermonuclear process is the one that shows in the clearest of colours the phenomenon of a fire which can be seen to leap up onto the nuclei that is hearts.
    We will bring this point to its end by quoting a little couplet of Wordsworth that contains a sparkling truth in relation to our theme:-
    ‘TO LET A CREED, “says Wordsworth,
    BUILT IN THE HEART OF THINGS,
    DISSOLVE BEFORE A TWINKLING ATOMY”.
    Wordsworth lived when the atomic energy as yet was not discovered, nor were its effects manifest in any way, yet the couplet of Wordsworth mean exactly:
    “To let the universe built in the nuclear system
    Dissolve before the tempting energy

    Do you also see the wonder of the little couple?
    Website: http://www.oqasa.org
    Adara Afqar-e-Gabriel main bazaar Nawababad Wah Cantt
    Distt Rawalpindi Pakistan
    Yousuf_gabriel21@yahoo.com

  213. Scott Thong Says:

    Actually, I was more wondering about how the following lesson in Islamic genetics affects all those silly DNA scientists who have the totally wrong idea about heredity:

    When ‘Abdullah bin Salam heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said… Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle?

    Allah’s Apostle said, “Gabriel has just now told me of their answers… As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her.”Hadith Sahih Bukhari 55:546

    In short, whoever orgasms first = baby looks like him/her.

    This is real and factual! Because Islam = Really Real Science! Am I correct?????

    PS. Thank you for the spam. Try putting it in your own words next time for a change.

  214. ruth Says:

    It does not take a rocket scientist to know God said DO NOT KILL… Mohammed and kaoran said kill whole cities that will not bow to the allah *****…God said do not lie.. Mohammed and koran said lie your heart out if it serves a purpose…. God said do not commit adultery… Mohammed and koran said polygamy, slave girls, 15 minute marriages all permissible..
    One of these is of god’s wisdom and laws and one of these is satans version of ‘god’s wisdom and laws…As I said it doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand if the koran is from god..It isn’t..

  215. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I would appreciate if Scott or Ruth could explain more to all of us about the status of the Apocrypha bibles. This is for non Christians to understand why the existence of such “bibles’ ever been produced by ‘irresponsible hands’ long, long time ago. We just know Protestants objected to it firmly, yet some Christian denominations accepts them. In such a situation, how do we are sure for the rest – or the ‘canonical’ ones to be100 percents intact ?

    Thanks for any explanations.

  216. ruth Says:

    Nasaei, The real truth is hidden from the masses. As we progress spiritually we also gain insight into truth…God leads his own into truths.. This is why they are able to label the koran, the book of mormon and jehovah’s witnesses literature as false..We still live in a world of deceit , delusion and evil so of course the devil would invent many versions of God’s word…He has counterfeited God since the garden of Eden..
    There were two significant trees in the Garden of Eden.. Both of these are identified as being WISDOM.. The tree of life is God’s wisdom…The tree of knowledge of good and evil was satan’s version of wisdom..
    After the Adams ate of satan’s wisdom tree they became perverse.. They (man ) began practicing polygamy, killing, lying, idolatry, etc..The serpent made man think these things are good , not evil.. Does not the koran teach polygamy, killing, and lying???
    There is only one Christ….He is God in flesh as He prophecied in Isaiah 43-10…All others are liars..He is not the impotent little man ISSA of Islam..
    And Nasaei…Are you aware that the men who had Jesus killed did so because JESUS SAID HE WAS SON OF GOD…and these converted pharisees had the exact same doctrines and practices as Islam..
    These converted pharisees’ bloodlines were of Ishamel and Esau.. THIS IS PROVEN BY HISTORY…

  217. Heathcote Says:

    Showing some love to this topic “new to this wordpress”. I defiantly agree with it also. If you really think about it than it all makes alot of sense

  218. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Ruth from where did you know and concluded that Quran teachs killing and lying ? Polygamy= yes up to four (remember if you feel you could be fair to all the four). If not better don’t. Many do mary four in Islamic soceities after all.

    As for killigs, the portion of verses that you read were refering to self defence and the situation in “official” war – yes you can kill the army, but NOT the children, old folks, handicapped ones, (civilians). This is what all Muslims interpretation/ believe. Might you quote out of context according to your interpretation – based on interpretation made by those who hate Islam. Therefore you got it wrong. Pls read the proper sources, not from the anti Islam sources. Of course you will not find the word “self defence ” in Quran, but it is meant for what we called “self defense” by today’s understandang/ terminology.

    In the West, you can only marry 1. However.. err..how many of them do not keeping girlfriends.. (outside marriage, illegal, immoral ones?). This I believe make you all “damaged” in the eyes of God, even though you say..
    I believe in Jesus” or so. “I believe in Jesus” doesn not guaranty you salvation if you are bad apple (I believe so..you believe you still deserve
    Paradise?.

  219. ruth Says:

    Nasaei, The koran has dozens of verses instructing muslims to kill whole cities, if they do not accept Islam..As for polygamy Mohammed had 19 wives and contless sex slaves , not to mention the 15 minute marriage which was nothing but prostitution.. The koran also instructs muslim to lie or pose as Christian, Jew, or whatever to advance jihad…
    God said “do not swear by Him, or heaven,”
    etc.. yet mohammed did..
    Do yo read the koran?????It is all in there..not to mention history proves these things too..

  220. ruth Says:

    Nasaei, would you like for me to look the koran verses up and post them for you..IT will take a while since koran word search is very inacurate.

  221. wits0 Says:

    Aiyah Ruth, it’s all there @ http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://www.faithfreedom.org

    No way the MCMC can surreptitiously block this site. :D

    Among Jesus, Buddha and Mohammad, which one alone has blood on his hands as a warrior?

    When you have blood on your hands, and promote world domination by force how do you qualify to preach peace?

  222. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Till your death you will never get anything good about Islam BECAUSE.. once again..you read the from the anti Islam sources (including “the faith freedom.com” posted by our Chin friend Wits0 above. Till the end you will always cheated by those stuffs ! I’m sorry of you all..

    We Muslims never at any time believe killing is allowed by Islam. Killing will deserve you a dealth penalty like being done by Saudi Arabia’s Islamic laws. Yet killing is allowed you all say.. I’m sorry of you all..

    This must be something wrong somewhere with your ideas.. What makes you get it wrong ? Your sources of reference.

    If I were to know Christianity, I would prefer to ask my Christians friends and read from Christian’s sources..

    Till the end you will never get the better understang..

    ..and, usually if you hate something.. you tend to find other hate stuff to suit your hatred mentality.. YOU WILL GET IT ! Hundreds or thousands of them on the net..!

  223. wits0 Says:

    Malaysian Communications and Multimedia Commission (MCMC)spinning itself in convolution here:
    http://www.thenutgraph.com/mcmc-were-just-doing-our-job

  224. ruth Says:

    Nasaei, how else would satan make war with God and destroy men except by giving them a false gospel and a false deity that contridcts the real word of God and the real God…
    The koran instructs muslims to kill whole cities if they will not believe the koran..
    Well Naseai, God also promised something for unbelievers.. He promised to send them a lie that would damn them..Koran is that lie..
    You have been warned.. You better wake up…Jesus is coming back very soon..

  225. ruth Says:

    Nasaei, has it never entered your mind that you could be wrong..???

  226. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I know Ruth, usually our ideas could be either wright or wrong. It CANNOT BE BOTH! This applies to everybody. So.. “has it never entered your mind that you could be wrong” Ruth???

    However there are “half truth” ideas or statements, meaning that someone/ anybody’s perception are partially wrong, mistaken, not right even though he or she is “dead sure” the idea is correct.

  227. wits0 Says:

    “I know Ruth, usually our ideas could be either wright or wrong. It CANNOT BE BOTH! This applies to everybody.”

    But you believe with the absolute certitude that you’re MORE right than Ruth, don’t you. Otherwise you wouldn’t be here.

    Believing in a thing(your way) does not mean that’s true, no matter how much assertions you make about it, quoting things here and there or how many other people apparently(and choicelessly) subscribe it by de facto peer pressure. You quote authority, heavily borrowed (ayrab cultural) tradition but largely forsake reason for things dogmatic and then assume your own perception is correct without very deep examination.

  228. wits0 Says:

    Kalama Sutra

    “Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching. Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the spirit of the words. Rely not on theory, but on experience.Do not believe in anything simply because you
    have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is
    written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. BUT AFTER OBSERVATION AND ANALYSIS, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

    – the Buddha

  229. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    “But you believe in absolute certitude that you are MORE right than Ruth. Don’t you? Otherwise you wouldn’t be here”..

    I never ever said that I was ‘more right than Ruth’. Didn’t you read properly that I said “this applies to all / everyones” above (including myself, yourself – anybody else).

    You must be Ipoh mali too..

  230. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    The following is worth asking Scott – a knowledgible person who probably kept abreast with the ongoing or current developments (of news etc):

    i) What Oprah Winfrey said recently ? She said “Jesus didn’t come to die on the cross..”. I don’t know what she had in mind, however, if I’m not mistaken she admits she is a regular/ common Christian like anybody else. She just said.. “the way to God” is not just a single way..or..the one and only” . I don’t know much about Christianity.

    2) (Other thing): Among the many Biblical proof Jesus is not God:

    When asked by the disciples whether He (Jesus) would know about the
    last day/ hour he (Jesus) said:

    “But for that day or hour, no one knows, neither the angels in the
    Heaven; nor the Son, but only the Father..”

    FRANKLY I really wonder of our Christian friends. They still have other “extra-terrestrial” top-up explanations to clarify that obviously very CLEAR Bible statement. Among others they say:

    “Jesus at that particular moments was speaking on his HUMAN side’ not divine, of godly conscience..” bla..blaa…etc.

    The question (by his desciples) was about belief, divine, doctrine, or something which is not under control of any human being (the last day or “doomsday”) yet they said it is “the other side od the coin” or something like that.

    If Jesus is “god” he must have known it. And remember, He said the Father (God) supposed to know it, NOT himself (The Son). Is not it CLEAR and easy to understand ?

  231. 72raisins Says:

    I never ever said that I was ‘more right than Ruth’.
    -Nasaei Ahmad

    Ah, I see then you must be less right. Ossified Osama is disgusted with today`s shallow youth.

  232. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Sorry. The above verses is in Gospel of Mark:13-32.

    PLEASE do not think that I’m attacking Christiany or else. We all are same in the sense that we are seeking truth. TQ

  233. Scott Thong Says:

    Yes, Oprah was a disappointment: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/oprah-fool.htm

    But we don’t really expect better from Hollywood types, the same gang who argue that Roman Polanski shouldn’t be arrested for boozing, drugging, raping and sodomizing a 13-year old girl and then running from the law for decades. Note that Oprah is a big Obama fan as well, and as examples #39, #51 and #61 on this very page show, she thinks too highly of him.

    A similar comparison would be the recently sentenced ‘Rasul Melayu’. Would you as a Muslim listen to this guy and take advice on Islamic theology from him? Same idea with Oprah and Christianity.

    As for the issue of Jesus making a distinction between Himself and the Father, this is why Christian believe in the Trinity instead of Unity or non-divinity.

    Unity: God = Jesus, no distinction. Problems arise as you have described – if they are 100% the same person with no distinction, then why does Jesus say ‘Only the Father knows’ or speak to the Father as another person?

    Non-divinity: God = God, Jesus = not God, just a prophet or an extra special creation. The former is same as Islam believes. Problems arise – why does Jesus then allow worship of Himself as God while saying ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is one’?

    Trinity: God = Jesus and Father and Holy Spirit alltogether; distinct yet one. Only way to fulfill the problems listed above.

    Hey, I even made a whole new post on this: Why Christians Believe Jesus is God in Three Easy Bible Passages

  234. wits0 Says:

    “Ossified Osama is disgusted with today`s shallow youth.”

    He himself epitomizes shallowness and even worse, reeks of it and has a big pompous mouth.

  235. Loop Says:

    “You have been warned.. You better wake up…Jesus is coming back very soon..’-ruth
    The koran has dozens of verses instructing Jesus to come back and kill people like YOU very soon..

  236. ruth Says:

    IS THAT A THREAT LOOP..You have forgotten one very important thing. tHE KORAN IS A LIE…First, Jesus is not a killer and second you will have to go through Jesus to get to me.. Can you do it..???I don’t think so..

    Do you really think Jesus is taking instructions from the koran.. ?????
    JESUS IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM..

    Hasn’t the koran caused enough death on this planet to teach you anything???

  237. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    “The koran has dozens of verses instructing Jesus to come back and kill people like YOU very soon..”

    – Loop says (above)

    I hope Loop could attach the dozens of the verses for our viewing here. He could be right (or maybe wrong interpretation).

  238. Scott Thong Says:

    The koran has dozens of verses instructing Jesus to come back and kill people like YOU very soon.. – Loop

    Really? I thought all Nabi Isa is supposed to do is break all the crosses, kill all the pigs and scold the Christians.

    Unless you count the Islamic instances of Jews and Christians being turned into apes and pigs, meaning you equate Christians with pigs, and therefore Nabi Isa will return to kill all Christians who = pigs.

    But then, I am an unschooled amateur in the ways and knowledge of Islam who doesn’t know anything about the Quran and Hadith. Unlike well-read scholars like you, right?

    And btw, what about my challenge to you on ‘One Question, One Answer’?

  239. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Possibly likely many Christians learn about Islam from the Christian (or non Muslim sources/ writers who hate Islam). Western media also “doing good job’ and successfully inculcating hatred by their bias and highly prejudice reporting. They have been doing this for decades. So, many peoples believe the media. Just take for example, many peoples (non-Muslim) believe Quran promotes or encourage killing. Muslims say NO, killing is only allowed for a valid reason, for example in a war, or by the court of law.

    If it rue that Quran allows killing of non Muslim or their fellow Muslim, then
    we can kill anyones as we please. But that was not the case. You’ll get death penalty if you commit a killing in Saudi Arabia. Everybody knows.

    Saudi authorities misinterpret Quran ? Christian interpretation is the true one?

  240. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Brther Scott, pls be fair.. I NEVER ever claimed I’m a scholar! Sharp teasing edged razor blade we rarely applied here. To me “scholars” are like John Jilchrist, McDowell, Dr. Shorrosh, Deedat, etc. Frankly we acknowledge that you know much better than peoples around here (in this your blog)

  241. Jamie Says:

    ‘If it rue that Quran allows killing of non Muslim or their fellow Muslim, then
    we can kill anyones as we please. But that was not the case. You’ll get death penalty if you commit a killing in Saudi Arabia. Everybody knows.’

    Let me also add this…

    You also get death penalty if you get raped in Saudi Arabia. Everybody knows.

    Saudi authorities misinterpret Quran?

  242. Scott Thong Says:

    Oh no, Nasaei, I was not referring to you. I was replying to Loop, in particular the blockquote from him/her/it.

  243. Scott Thong Says:

    Western media also “doing good job’ and successfully inculcating hatred by their bias and highly prejudice reporting.

    Actually, when I read the news reports featured on blogs, I find that the Western media seems to go to great lengths to avoid portraying Islam or Muslims negatively.

    For example, crimes or riots involving Pakistani-Muslim gangs in Britain are concealed under the name of ‘Asians’. Honour killings by Muslim fathers angered that their daughters are acting ‘too Western’ or dating a nonMuslim boy usually have the religion unmentioned, and the motive (saving face due after transgression of religious norms) is almost never stated. Even the recent thwarted terror plots in several places in the USA, the religion of the suspects are not mentioned even though it is obvious from their names, the mosque they attend, and their cited writings about jihad.

    If you can cite some specific examples of the Western media inculcating hatred, do share with me so I can broaden my knowledge!

  244. ruth Says:

    The young women run over by her muslim father in America just died…He hit her with his auto because he said she was too westernized.. Well I say this homocidal maniac is too demonized….What kind of a god would sanction a man murdering his children..???
    The real God of Abraham will only tolerate the insanity called Islam another 2 or 3 seconds and then it will be erased from this earth..A lot of muslims will be in hell then..

  245. Loop Says:

    ‘tHE KORAN IS A LIE…First, Jesus is..’-ruth Says: November 3, 09 at 2:29 am

    At this point you are pretty right that I am pretty lie to say The koran has dozens of verses instructing Jesus to come back and kill people like YOU very soon.It’s just to prod you to see how you’ll react! And you react like an idiot. So wickedly.So ruthlessly.

    ‘I hope Loop could attach the dozens of the verses for our viewing here. He could be right (or maybe wrong interpretation).’-Nasaei.

    Ok Nasaei, I attach some verses for your viewing.But instead of Holy Quran it is the bible that said that Jesus will return for the second time to kill this wicked person , neither gathered, nor buried.

    All the Wicked are Killed by the Brightness of Jesus Coming – None of the wicked, except the Devil and his angels, will survive the Coming of Jesus.
    2 Thessalonians:
    2:8 … and shall destroy [them] with the brightness of his coming:
    Jeremiah
    25:33″And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried.” (Because there will not be anyone left?)
    Isaiah
    24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
    24:2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
    24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
    24:4 The earth mourneth [and] fadeth away, the world languisheth [and] fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
    24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
    24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

  246. Loop Says:

    So did Jesus return for the second time to destroy the Islam or the wicked christian like you?lol

  247. ruth Says:

    Loop… First of all you are not capable of understanding god’s words..
    Jesus will destroy Islam simply by exposing the lies of Islam and the character of Mohammed..They/it will self destruct..

    And you are a perfect example of an unbeliever of God’s words that will believe the delusional lie that damns men.. 2 Thess. 2…
    Mohammed and Islam could not save a fly….And by the way.. the unforgiveable sin is blasphemy of holy ghost.. The comforter is the h oly ghost.. John 14-26.. I think acknowledging mohammed as comforter is this unforgiveabel sin.. Better wake up..

    Islam and muslims are at war with God himself.. and do not even know it..

  248. Loop Says:

    ruth..do you really capable of understanding and knowing god’s words when modern Bible versions have been removing words, phrases, and even whole verses?..completely removes one of the basic doctrines found in every evangelical church. When shows to people they just stand with their mouths open and say, “I can’t believe it!”

    and you stand here talking jesus will bla bla bla bla bla… no wonder you just like the one of those in the lake of fire.

    Do you believe in hell Ruth? it is one of the word that is missing in yr bible.

  249. Adifferentview Says:

    Loop, you add NOTHING to the discussion. You lie when it suits you. You accuse others of all sorts of things. You even wrote that hell is one of the words missing from ruth’s bible. I think she may be too polite to say that hell is reserved for someone like you.

  250. ruth Says:

    Loop read Luke 16-23 through 31…about hell.. v.23..And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    v.24.. And he cried and said, FATHER ABRAHAM, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    V.29… Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
    V.31..And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Muslm does not hear o.t. prophecies about Jesus..

    It appears men who claim Abraham is their father (through Ishmael) and profess to believe the old testament prophets are in hell…Abraham says they will not believe the death of Jesus… more verses about hell in my bible to come

  251. ruth Says:

    Luke 13-28…loop… There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
    Ishamel is still cast out.. notice he is not in the kingdom of god…

  252. ruth Says:

    Loop.. muslims call Christians fools for believing the gospel..
    Matt 5-22.. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of HELL fire.

  253. ruth Says:

    matt 11-23..And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to HELL: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
    I believe Capernaum is one of the places where Idumean pharisees lived.. Their doctrine was exactly the same as Islam.. The Idumeans were descendants of Ishamel-Esau and were forced converts to Judaism..

  254. ruth Says:

    loop Matthew 16-18..And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of HELL shall not prevail against it.
    And then Jesus gives us a hint of THE GATE OF HELL..
    V.21 Jesus tells Peter he will be put to death..
    Peter denies Jesus will be put to death..
    V.23 Jesus calls Peter satan to inform us that it is satan who DENIES JESUS DEATH…This lie is part of the doctrine of the gate of hell religion..
    More verses on hell coming

  255. ruth Says:

    lOOP MORES hell VERSES..
    Matt 16-18..And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    That Rock is revelaed knowledge that JESUS IS SON OF GOD..
    Verse 16 …And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    This revealed knowledge that JESUS IS SON OF GOD is the ROCK Jesus built his church on…Every Christian knows Jesus is SON OF GOD..
    The GATES OF HELL cannot prevail against thisaROCK.

  256. ruth Says:

    Loop…MATTHEW 23-15..Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of HELL than yourselves.

    This verse about HELL shows us exactly how satan transforms men into his children…It is by proseltyizing…as Islam does…

    One interseting thing.. is that these Idumean pharisees proseltyized the exact same identical doctrine as Islam..

    These professed to worship the god of Abrham, but Jesus said they didnt even know what they were worshipiing..
    These professed to be SONS OF ABRHAM, but Jesus said NOT SONS but SEED of Abraham,, This means they were not of Isaac but of Ishamel-Esau..
    These stoned women, circumsized, loved salutations like PBUH, wore long gowns, said long prayers,, DENIED JESUS DEATH, DENIED JESUS IS SON OF GOD..and loop

  257. ruth Says:

    Loop I only have one more thing to say.. Read Matthew 7 about the narrow way (Christians) built on the ROCK and the broad way build on SAND…..This broad way is the gate of hell…God is gathering those that do not believe the gospel into this broad way….It leads to hell..

  258. ruth Says:

    lOOP. i HOPE YOU WILL FORGIVE MY OUTBURST, BUT i JUST GET ANGRY WHEN PEOPLE LIE ABOUT THE BIBLE AND jESUS.. aS FOR MANY DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THE bIBLE Do you know not that the truth is hidden.. It must be searched for… the pearl of great price…only true hearts FIND THE TRUTH.. God is allowing this..

  259. Loop Says:

    Sorry Ruth.I think I owe you and adifferentview an apology.But you really outburst me with that ‘ koran has dozens of verses instructing muslims to kill whole cities, if they do not accept Islam..’

    In Quran its clearly stated that God doesn’t care at all for those who disbelieve becoz Islam really distinct from error:

    [2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

    You owe me much explaination for the statement ..’ Koran has dozens of verses instructing muslims to kill WHOLE CITIES (?), if they do not accept Islam..’ And you better be good ‘because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north’- Ezekiel 21

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  261. Loop Says:

    The Bible-Genesis 34 promote a mass killing

    Genesis 34-Shechem raped Dinah(Jacob’s daughter) and all the sons of Jacob return home in great fury;descend on the town , kill Shechem and all the males , the women and children and plunder the whole city.

    This ‘Dinah strategy’ applied by the Jews toward Palestin and The Christians toward Iraq and others Islam country.Thus it is your Bible that condone violence to Muslim.

    And Jesus return to carry his followers to the way of Islam on his second return!

  262. Scott Thong Says:

    I will counter your accusation by pointing out how the Bible actually condemns this act.

    First, look at who instigated the massacre:

    Three days later, while all of them were still in pain, two of Jacob’s sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah’s brothers, took their swords and attacked the unsuspecting city, killing every male. – Genesis 34:25, the slaughter of the Shechemites

    And look how their actions are judged:

    Simeon and Levi are brothers — their swords are weapons of violence. Let me not enter their council, let me not join their assembly, for they have killed men in their anger and hamstrung oxen as they pleased.” – Genesis 49:5-6, Jacob’s dying words to his sons

    Silly Loop, surely you would have noticed that part if you had actually read an actual Bible or commentary! So did you just pick up this attack from some website without researching it yourself? Or are you intentionally trying to be dishonest?

    Next, let me point out who commits atrocities in response to ‘dishonour’ these days:

    The father and uncle of honour killing victim Banaz Mahmod were jailed for life today for her murder. Banaz Mahmod, 20, was brutally raped and stamped on during a two-hour ordeal before being garotted.

    One of her killers, the Old Bailey was told, was 30-year-old Mohamad Hama, who had been recruited by Banaz’s father Mahmod Mahmod, 52, and his brother Ari, 51. The shocking details of the killing came to light when Hama was secretly recorded talking to a friend in prison. He admitted “slapping” and “f***ing” Banaz, who was subjected to degrading sex acts. Hama and his friend were heard laughing as he described how she was killed in her family home in Mitcham, South London, with Ari Mahmod “supervising”.

    Banaz’s body was packed into a suitcase and buried in a garden in Birmingham, where it was found three months later. The trial of the two brothers heard that Banaz was killed because she had walked out of an unhappy arranged marriage – which she was forced into at just 17 – and fallen in love with Iranian Kurd Rahmat Suleimani, 28.

    The Daily Mail

    Oh wow! Rapists/killers named Mohamad Hama, Mahmod Mahmod and Ari Mahmod. Those sound totally Jewish/Christian to me!

    The pair had been secretly seeing each other, but her family were furious when they found out because Mr Suleimani was not “immediate family” or a strict Muslim.

    Oops! Oh well, anyone can make a wrong guess now and then, right?

    And now I shall finish up with a real approval of murder:

    “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’

    Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet.

    The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’

    Umayr said. ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’

    ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”Ishaq: 676

    Not enough! How about one more!

    According to Ibn Ishaq, Abu Lubaba felt pity for the women and children of the tribe who were crying and when asked whether the Qurayza should surrender to Muhammad, advised them to do so. However he also “made a sign with his hand toward his throat, indicating that [their fate] would be slaughter”.

    The merciful Muhammad, founder of the religion of utmost peace, proceeded to murder the entire surrendered, unarmed, helpless city.

  263. Scott Thong Says:

    Sorry Ruth.I think I owe you and adifferentview an apology. – Loop

    None for me? The recipient of many more of your insults and mockings?

  264. Scott Thong Says:

    Do you believe in hell Ruth? it is one of the word that is missing in yr bible. – Loop

    English = Hell
    Greek = Hades
    Hebrew = Gehenna

    And 600 years later, you get the Arabic ‘jahanam’.

    Kind of puts into perspective the claim that Arabic is the ‘first language’, eh? Wonder why the Quran had to use such an unoriginal, second-hand language…

  265. Scott Thong Says:

    I hope Loop could attach the dozens of the verses for our viewing here. He could be right (or maybe wrong interpretation).’-Nasaei.

    Ok Nasaei, I attach some verses for your viewing.But instead of Holy Quran it is the bible that said that Jesus will return for the second time to kill this wicked person , neither gathered, nor buried.

    – Loop

    Congratulations, Nasaei! You have just been the recipient of the classic Loop Cop Out where he/she/it does not answer the original question and instead goes off on a completely different track in an effort to avoid the topic! Took me dozens of comments to achieve that, and just a few for you!

  266. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    If a certain topic doesn’t need more ‘superflous’ explanation, I just get bored and skip it. Sometime the explanations and justification do not go anywhere after all. By this atmosphere, I forget it, unless if I have anything else to ask you all later.

    Now I have something to enquire any knowledgible Christian. I have a bit sense of a suspicious about the possibility of people misundertood the word “worship” in comparison to what we Muslims understand it.

    If people put up their fingers in combo near their forehead to greet or respect anyone (like the Thais/ Buddhists were doing to greet people), could it be considered worship ? I suspect that people did the same to Jesus as recorded by Holy Bible ..(..and then they “worshipped him (Jesus)”.

    The word “lord” more or less the same. To me, “lord” must never be confused to be God or divine. The word been used in many occasions and applied to many peoples/ things. And we have Lord President, landlord,
    warlords, “your lord” etc. One sure thing as I see it, it applies NOT only to God. People adressed it in respect of a highly admired personalities etc. such as in England esp in the past. People such as VIP – Duke/ Duchess, Justices, ministers etc, might be fitting it.

    Then, I notice our Christians friends couldn’t differentiate between praying
    and Muslim doa’ rituals. At times we open up our palms for doa’ for example, there is no other words in English for doa’ (both are referred to as “prayer” (whereas we actually did not pray. Praying in Islam must include prostration- bow and sujud- touching to ground)

    Reporters write their ‘caption’ to demostrate a Muslim having doa’ by saying: “Muslims / Malays performing prayers (or so). This is an example of a bit of a confusion.

    Then the concept of “God” also greatly constrasted between Christian and Muslim – it closest ‘kin’.

    To us (Muslims), God doesn’t need food or drinks; doesn’t fall asleep or ever feel sleepy; doesn’t need to rest on Sunday; He doesn’t feel tired whatsoever; cannot die, cannot be born, live forever, has no beginning nor end like any of His creatures. He doesn’t need a transportation (sport car etc) to move from a place to another. Jesus was recorded as riding an ass for example, and live on foods).

    Muslim also believe Allah will never incarnate (in any form whatsoever; no human being ever met Him. Except in the Day of Judgment some righteous men will see His image). With the exception of Moses – he just listened to God,s word directly, but not see Him after all).

    How opposite we are (Christian-Muslim) in believe…

  267. Loop Says:

    Oh wow! – The Daily Mail. I don’t notice that. Is this a new verse from your bible that to be publish soon?

    Oh wow! These really Jewish/Christian to me!
    “A shocker! Someone very close to me, having dire marital problems, went to a curate of our church for advice. Taking advantage of her pain and self-loathing, he took her to a motel and seduced her. “

  268. Scott Thong Says:

    Loop, you’re really clutching at straws now. Do you want this to degenerate into a competition where we each cite the worst examples from each other’s religions? The difference is, of course, that my citations will be backed up with links to actual news reports, while yours will predictably be unproveable hearsay and rumour.

  269. Scott Thong Says:

    The word “lord” more or less the same. To me, “lord” must never be confused to be God or divine.

    Agreed, however know that in the NIV English translation of the Bible, the most holy specific name of God – YHWH – is translated to LORD. This always refers to the God who called the Israelites of of Egypt. (It is comparable to the specific name ‘Scott Thong’ which always refers to me.) There is also a more general term for lord, Adonai, which is translated in the NIV as Lord. Based on the context, this often refers to God as well.

    Thus it is simply a matter of translation that English speakers use the word LORD or Lord to refer to God. The Hebrew YHWH and Adonai both carry connotations of God’s lordship or rulership over the universe, so using LORD or Lord actually fits quite well.

    Then, I notice our Christians friends couldn’t differentiate between praying
    and Muslim doa’ rituals. At times we open up our palms for doa’ for example, there is no other words in English for doa’ (both are referred to as “prayer” (whereas we actually did not pray. Praying in Islam must include prostration- bow and sujud- touching to ground)

    I admit that I too did not know the difference! To me, prayer is anytime when one speaks to God directly.

    God doesn’t need food or drinks;p doesn’t fall asleep or ever feel sleepy; doesn’t need to rest on Sunday; He doesn’t feel tired whatsoever; cannot die, cannot be born, live forever, has no beginning nor end like any of His creatures. He doesn’t need a transportation (sport car etc) to move from a place to another. Jesus was recorded as riding an ass for example, and live on foods).

    We actually do agree on every one of the following from the above!

    God does not need to rest on Sunday or the Sabbath; it is simply a figure of speech, meaning He paused creating on one day of the week as an example for man to follow.

    God as spirit cannot be born or die, an does not need to ride or eat. However, God intentionally incarnated Himself in the physical form of a human, and humans can experience all of those things. When Jesus’ physical body died, His spirit did not (all spirits cannot die anyway).

    So actually, the only thing we disagree on is whether God would ever choose to incarnate Himself as a human. In Christianity, this is an integral part of who God is – someone so incredible and all-powerful, yet who loves us so much that He would undergo horrific suffering for our sake. As the lyrics of this song describe:

    ABOVE ALL

    Above all powers, above all kings
    Above all nature and all created things
    Above all wisdom and all the ways of man
    You were here before the world began

    Above all kingdoms, above all thrones
    Above all wonders the world has ever known
    Above all wealth and treasures of the earth
    There’s no way to measure what you’re worth

    Crucified
    Laid behind a stone
    You lived to die
    Rejected and alone
    Like a rose
    Trampled on the ground
    You took the fall
    And thought of me
    Above all

    To Christians, the fact that God is ruler above all creation but would be willing to sacrifice everything to bring us to Him is something that is truly wonderful!

    Imagine if the Prime Minister would throw himself onto a bomb to save the lowly aides surrounding him – how selfless! But many would also say it is senseless – why should the Prime Minister die instead of some unknown underlings?

    That’s probably how Muslims think of the idea that God would allow Himself to be crucified – senseless, unbelievable, impossible! But that is exactly what makes the Christian idea of God so attractive to me. Our God is not only all righteous and all powerful, but also all loving.

  270. ruth Says:

    As I see it the world is and always has been full of pain and death and deception, injustice, etc.I could never worship a god that was so selfish he allowed men to proceed in this madness winthout intervention….
    But a God who loved me so much he died in my place is the god worthy of worship…
    But there are still those who deny Jesus death…Matthew 16-21,22,23 shows clearly that it is satan who denies Jesus death..Does not allah deny Jesus death???If so, why does allah deny Jesus death???Is allah trying to prove the bible a lie????

  271. ruth Says:

    The muslim description of allah is saying he is nothing… A spirit that demands the worship of the entire world and he certainly has not earned it..
    As I see it this is a battle over who GOD IS and which WORD is god’s word…
    One is the real God of the universe and one is satan posing as the god of the universe…As for which WORD is really god’s word.. Take you pick.. Jesus sealed his WORD with HIS BLOOD.. Mohamed’s koran is sealed with the blood of his victims..It doesnt not take a rocked scientist to see which god is good and which god is evil.
    Allah tthrew his victims onto an unjust deceptive earth to sink or swim.. He is much too selfish to take the time to become a man and die for their sins and redeem them….
    Before I understood even one word of doctrine at age 5 I knew allah was not god…

    Muslim scholars do not understand one thing about the bible but they twist it to try to fit Islam and they brainwash their pupils..
    These lies have closed the minds and reasoning of muslims..and caused them to be evil… like the For Hood shooter.. Amerca gave him everything and he gave them death in return.. He preferred to kill his fellow soldiers to gain entrance into muslim paradise…He is pure evil… taught to him by Islam

  272. Loop Says:

    ‘The merciful Muhammad, founder of the religion of utmost peace, proceeded to murder the entire surrendered, unarmed, helpless city.’
    You are wrong Scott and the verse you intentionally gave partial quotes to make Prophet Muhammad look like a violent .
    Let us look at few examples of the Biblical Prophets’ “murders” and the real violent:

    Killing of Innocent People and Animals:

    1- All men, including the unarmed ones, were to be executed (Deuteronomy 20:13).

    2- All women and children were to be taken as spoils of war (Deuteronomy 20:14).

    3- For the others, kill and destroy every creature that is breathing – that is all men, women, children and animals (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

    Not enough! How about one more!

    WHAT ABOUT THE BIBLE’S PROPHETS’ MURDERS that were blessed by GOD?

    Cutting the hands and feet of the enemies in the Bible, and hanging their live bodies on trees until they DIE.

    “They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man……..Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-18)”

    And now I shall finish up with a real approval of murder too:

    Ezekiel 21
    3 and say to her: ‘This is what the LORD says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked.
    4 Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north.
    5 Then all people will know that I the LORD have drawn my sword from its scabbard; it will not return again.’

    Am I avoiding you Scott?See now how Prophet Muhammad acts against violence:

    When Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him tried to migrate from Mecca to the city of Al-Ta’if, the pagans there had their own children throw rocks on the Prophet until his face and body were swollen and bleeding. The Prophet peace be upon him prayed for the people of Al-Ta’if to be Guided to Islam. And ultimately they were Guided and they embraced Islam.

    Conclusion:
    While Prophet Muhammad loved and forgave children for throwing stones at him, the Bible shows ZERO tolerance to even innocent name-calling from children; let alone having them throwing stones!!

  273. ruth Says:

    Loop, it is muslims who live by old covenant laws not Christians..Muslims customs and doctrines are the exact same as the customs and doctrines of the Idumean pharisees who had Jesus killed.. Do you want me to quote them for you…
    Why do you attack Christians with old covenant testament..Christains live by the new covenant testament of Jesus…
    This is not 100 ad nor is it 600 ad..Man has evolved past the barberism of those days.. at least Christian men have..OPEN YOUR EYES…LOOK AT BOTH SIDES…

  274. ruth Says:

    As for mohammed history records so many of his evil deeps it is impossible to think he was of god..Unless you shut your mind to truth..

  275. Loop Says:

    ‘While Prophet Muhammad loved and forgave children for throwing stones at him, the Bible shows ZERO tolerance to even innocent name-calling from children; let alone having them throwing stones!!’

    2 Kings 2
    23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. “Go on up, you baldhead!” they said. “Go on up, you baldhead!”
    24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

    Like I said the ‘Dinah strategy’ applied by the Jews toward Palestin and The Christians toward Iraq and others Islam country.Thus it is your Bible that condone violence to Muslim. And I added somemore evidence to exposing the corrupted bible and the evil that exists in it.

  276. ruth Says:

    Loop, can you explain this old testament verse about the people of palestine…
    Isaiah 14-29..Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit [shall be] a fiery flying serpent.
    I know exactly what it means…The rod is the ABRAXAS gnostic God who evidently was the god of some of the palestinans. and’or Arabians…. The same god that is depicted as having serpent root like legs..It is out And I promise you the dragon beast of Rev 13 is all about Islam and it people..

    Maybe you should start a bible study..

  277. ruth Says:

    Loop…You do know that God dubbed Ishamels descendants as the SAND OF THE SEA SHORE, don’t you…He did it so we could identify whos who in the last days..
    For instance….Matt 7, jesus tells us of the broad way (religion) build on SAND foundation.. and lo and behold, John stands on this very same SAND foundation. IN REV 13-1 WHEN HE VIEWS THE BEAST DRAGON….
    Rev 13-1..And I stood upon the SAND OF THE SEA, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
    And there is more… Rev 20- 8 says satan deceives and gathers the men who are numbered as the SAND OF THE SEA…These are gathered into the beast religion of rev 13-1…This is Ishmael’s descendants..
    prove me wrong….do not insult me please.. just prove me wrong..

    Israel was dubbed by God as the STARS OF HEAVEN..Christians are dubbed by god as the STARS OF GOD…

    lUCIFER OF iSAIAH 14: 12-13 SAID…I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the STARS OF GOD: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    the way lucifer exalts his throne above the stars of god (heaven) is to claim Ishamel is the chosen line for messiah to enter not Isaac..Lucifer says I WILL ALSO sit upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.. I am pretty sure this is about the dome of the rock in jerusalem…
    As for the dome of the ROCK how dare muslims call that building DOME OF THE ROCK.. JESUS IS THE ROCK and he is no part of Islam…
    Not only is Jesus THE ROCK,, but the revealed knowledge that HE IS SON OF GOD is the ROCK Jesus buiilt his church on that the GATE OF HELL will not prevail against.. Now I ask who might this gate of hell be that cannot prevail against those that believe JESUS IS SON OF GOD????

    And did you know the Idumean pharisees who had Jesus killed did so because JESUS SAID HE WAS SON OF GoD..Were these pharisees right?????

    And Loop if you really want peace quit trashing truth in the street.

  278. wits0 Says:

    http://www.aina.org/news/20091105184042.htm

    Egypt (AINA) — On October 24, 2009 Egyptian State Security arrested a Christian Copt in the village of Deir Samalout, Samalout, Minia province, for praying “without a license.” He was held in prison for two days before being released on “compassionate grounds.” Maurice Salama Sharkawy, 37 years old, had invited Pastor Elia Shafik, to conduct the sacrament of the ‘Anointing of the Sick’ for his sick father, who had suffered a stroke. State Security broke into his house while the prayers were ongoing, handcuffed Maurice, put him into a police car and took him to a police station for interrogation………………

  279. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Thanks Scott for the above explanation. Even without Jimmy Swaggard, Deedat, McDowell or Dr. Shorrosh, we can still make things ‘lively’ or vivid here…especially with you Scott at the helm.. And..the people like Ahmad, Mega, Loop and so forth.

    May I ‘swerve’ my topic a bit. You know Scott, from long time ago, before I came to your blog, I find that the people who criticized Quran do not have many bullets with them to attack Quran because of the fact that only a few “descrepancies” found in the Quran. I don’t actually called them descrepancy, but deffinitely due to subtility, or ambiguity of some Quranic verses. Less than 10 ‘issues’ they allegedly attacked, namely:

    1) One or two verses already be mentioned by peolpe of the past (e.g Hammurabi the King of Babylon); the verse, roughly “… eye for eye, blood for blood..”

    2) The verse that related to foetus / embroyology was inaccurate according to modern science;

    3) The fractions of the property left by the deceased, when sum up or divided to receivers, would be more than 100%;

    4) The total number of days for creation is 8, not six;

    5) Quran’s grammar is inconsistent;

    6) Contradictions in “day” i.e. 1,000 yrs or 50,000 yrs?;

    7) “Quran allows killing !”;

    8) etc.

    However in my experience when reading their criticism, I rarely came across (or none of them) objected to the burning of mushaf (Quran written materials) as you did. That is okay however.

    Last time I said I would also forward with other Quran’s statements that are confirmed to be correct by modern science (next time, Godwilling).

    I think there are other 3 or 4 “issues” they usually forwarded. I forgort the others (one or two of their accusations ..since I’m typing casually from my office now based on my memory only).

    Do have any more to add up of what I listed above Scott? . So that we could talk about it later, (or sooner, provided time permitted). Thanks.

  280. Scott Thong Says:

    2 Kings 2
    23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. “Go on up, you baldhead!” they said. “Go on up, you baldhead!”
    24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. – Loop

    The key words are forty-two and youths. Ever been to the inner city and have dozens of young gangsters surround you and pick a fight? By rights, even mocking the representatives of God (‘baldhead’) would have earned them instant death by an act of God – which the bears were.

    Besides, didn’t I previously quote a passage showing how ‘loving and forgiving’ Muhammad was?

    “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’

    Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’

    Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet.

    The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’

    Umayr said. ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’

    ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’” – Ishaq: 676

    So maybe you’re right, and Muhammad loved and forgave children for throwing stones at him. He just gets his followers to kill their mothers later.

    You have obviously ignored my warning that your attitude would lead to this discussion degenerating into a contest of polemics – one where you seldom (if ever) come out on top.

    But if that’s what you want…

  281. Scott Thong Says:

    I note that Loop is not interested in any real discussion, as all he/she/it does is throw a random attack, ignore the reasoned response, avoid answering difficult questions, repeat.

    In other words, he/she/it is acting on full automatic, with no response to outside stimuli. Like a robot with an outdated program.

    Who else has reached the same conclusion?

    I hypothesize that if no one replied from now on, or we all spoke Klingon, or we al suddenly agreed 100% with Loop, there would actually be no change in his/her/its actions.

  282. Scott Thong Says:

    ‘The merciful Muhammad, founder of the religion of utmost peace, proceeded to murder the entire surrendered, unarmed, helpless city.’
    You are wrong Scott and the verse you intentionally gave partial quotes to make Prophet Muhammad look like a violent . – Loop

    So tell us the full context.

    As far as I know, Muhammad made a peace treaty with Banu Qurayza. Muhammad sent anonymous raiders to harass them. They finally got fed up and declared war. Muhammad cried victim and besieged them. Muhammad offered them mercy if they surrendered. They surrendered. Muhammad slaughtered them.

    Can you explain it in a more impartial way?

    Come on, Loop. Surely after all this time, you know how to debate properly. You don’t just attack attack attack, and say “You are wrong” when someone attacks back. You need to ‘rebutt’ the attack, by explaining WHY “You are wrong” to the attacker.

    Killing of Innocent People and Animals:

    1- All men, including the unarmed ones, were to be executed (Deuteronomy 20:13).

    2- All women and children were to be taken as spoils of war (Deuteronomy 20:14).

    3- For the others, kill and destroy every creature that is breathing – that is all men, women, children and animals (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

    “They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man……..Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-18)

    Wait, these people were idolaters and polytheists. Doesn’t the Quran itself presribe the mass slaughter of such people?

    Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. – Sura 9:5

    So what’s your complaint here, o devout Muslim? Is it because the Bible only records God commanding the execution of specific idolaters and polytheists who now no longer exist, and not every single idolater and polytheist up to this very day? Are you outraged at the lax Christians who have stopped killing such people in modern times?

    (Watch out, Hindus and Buddhists! Devout Muslim Loop could go berserk with righteousness at any moment!)

    And as for the virgins…

    Slave-girls as sexual property in the Quran

    And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war) – Sura 4:24

    [Most certainly true believers] . . . guard their private parts scrupulously, except with regard to their wives and those who are legally in their possession, for in that case they shall not be blameworthy. – Sura 23:5-6

    Again, Jews and Christians cannot take captured Midianite girls to their beds, as there are no longer any Midianites. Wherea the Quranic verses are not limited to any particular tribe, but are applicable to ALL prisoners and slaves.

    So are you just upset that Christians are so ‘unmanly’ as to no longer practise raping of slaves?

    Ezekiel 21
    3 and say to her: ‘This is what the LORD says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked.

    Wait, weren’t you citing these very kind of verses a few comments back, gleefully looking forward to the slaying of us unrighteous Christians by a returned Jesus?

    In any case, this prophecy refers to the coming judgment of Israel due to the sin of the majority of its people.

    ———————-

    PS. One more on modern day ‘raping slaves’, from a modern day Quranic scholar:

    Ahmadinejad’s Spiritual Advisor: Raping Prisoners Is OK But Wash Your Hands First

    “Can an interrogator rape the prisoner in order to obtain a confession?” was the follow-up question posed to the Islamic cleric.

    Mesbah-Yazdi answered: “The necessary precaution is for the interrogator to perform a ritual washing first and say prayers while raping the prisoner. If the prisoner is female, it is permissible to rape through the vagina or anus. It is better not to have a witness present. If it is a male prisoner, then it’s acceptable for someone else to watch while the rape is committed.”

    This reply, and reports of the rape of teen male prisoners in Iranian jails, may have prompted the following question: “Is the rape of men and young boys considered sodomy?”

    Ayatollah Mesbah-Yazdi: “No, because it is not consensual. Of course, if the prisoner is aroused and enjoys the rape, then caution must be taken not to repeat the rape.”

    I’d be thrilled if you could find me a modern day Jew, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist or Scientologist scholar who says something similar.

  283. Scott Thong Says:

    Do have any more to add up of what I listed above Scott? . So that we could talk about it later, (or sooner, provided time permitted). Thanks. – Nasaei

    Well, one I always think of is the following compared to modern genetics of heredity:


    When ‘Abdullah bin Salam heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said… Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle?

    Allah’s Apostle said, “Gabriel has just now told me of their answers… As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her.” – Hadith Sahih Bukhari 55:546

  284. Lamberth Says:

    cool pics

  285. Loop Says:

    ‘Maybe you should start a bible study..’- Which bible ruth? I confused.Old covenant laws not Christians but the New Testament books has been challenged too .The school of historical criticism has exposed various apparent contradictions within the texts, as well as questions of authorship and dating.

    You and other Christians potray the Pharisees in the New Testament as narrow-minded hypocrites and the mortal opponents of Jesus. However, recent scholarship has shown that some Pharisees were supporters of Jesus and the early Christian movement, and some scholars see a direct influence of Pharisees such as Hillel on the teachings of Jesus-http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Pharisee

    ok then, we can still make things ‘lively’ or vivid here…especially with you and Scott at the helm..

  286. ruth Says:

    loop, first, not all pharissees conspired to have Jesus killed because he was SON OF GOD.. The evil ones who did this were the descendants of Ishamel-Esau…These lived in Idumea…Idumea was conquered prior Jesus life…A man named john Hycanaus conquered Idumea and forced its people to convert to judaism..These were blood descendants of Ishmael-
    Esau.. The Herod that had John Baptist HEHEADED was an Arabian…ishamel’s descendant… as aso was the Herod who killed all the babies..Ishmael’s descendants blamed the Jews…
    As for the koran, research the name allah…This is the name used for the chief god of ancient Arabia…He was in reality the astrology moon god named sin the Bible condemns him..Mohammed and his father were named abd allah after this ancient moon god a long time before mohammed met the angel..

    As for the koran, the very first words identify who allah really is.. It says ‘He is the god of the WORLDS.. WORLDS being plural… Mohammed also speaks many times of the SEVEN HEAVENS…This is SEVEN WORLDS, WITH SEVEN HEAVENS. of the astrology doctrines..
    There is only one heaven. that is corrupted then restored… This heaven was obscured by satan and his angels, this heaven will be restored …These are the three heavens spoken of in the Bible.. NO WHERE ARE SEVEN HEAVENS SPOKEN OF IN THE BIBLE..

    The seven heavens and seven worlds that allah is the god of are of the ancient astrology doctrines that engulfed the world.. This astrology lie is called the foundation of the world.. It will end soon and there goes islam..

  287. Loop Says:

    ‘Wait, these people were idolaters and polytheists. Doesn’t the Quran itself presribe the mass slaughter of such people?’-scott

    HO HO HO why Quran? there were no such verses in the bible or maybe it been removed too. Do you know that there are Jihad in the Bible too where Christian often refer to Islam as a terrorist religion, and they abuse the Arabic word “Jihad” and portray it as a reference to terrorism. We must not forget that JIHAD began in the Bible, where GOD Almighty Commanded His followers to fight for His Holy Cause. Let us look at what the Bible says about Jihad:

    GOD Almighty Chose the land of Palestine to be the Jews’ “Promise Land”, and thus, ordered them to go into it and fight the pagans there so they can have possession over it:

    Numbers 13:26-28
    26 They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land.
    27 They gave Moses this account: “We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit.
    28 But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there.

  288. ruth Says:

    There you go loop attacking CHristians with old testament scriptures or are you really ATTACKING GOD’S CHARACTER???

    Loop as I said before the Idumean pharisees had the exact same doctrine and customs as islam today.. Did you also know all the woes of revelations is directed towards these pharisees descendants of IsHMAEL.Beginning at Matt 23-23 Jesus announced these coming woes to those who practice this pharisee doctrine. as Islam does…..WOE, WOE, WOE, WOE,

    Let me run it by you again…

    Doctrine of Pharisees and muslims
    deny Jesus is SON OF GOD
    DENY jESUS DEATH
    PROFESS TO WORSHIP aBRAHM’S GOD.. jESUS SAID THEY WORSHIP SATAN
    Profess they are SONS of Abraham.jesus said SEED of Abrham, sons of satan
    Circumcise, stone women, wear long clothing, say long prayers, wash often,
    loved salutations like pbuh…

    WOE IS COMING LOOP….very quickly..

  289. Loop Says:

    ‘As far as I know, Muhammad made a peace treaty with Banu Qurayza. Muhammad sent anonymous raiders to harass them. They finally got fed up and declared war. Muhammad cried victim and besieged them. Muhammad offered them mercy if they surrendered. They surrendered. Muhammad slaughtered them.’-scott

    Your attitude that led this discussion degenerating into a contest of polemics. Yes they made a peace treaty with Banu Qurayza(Jews) but the truth is these Jews double cross and try to attack Muslim from the back while the kuffars invaded Madina in a war from the front at that time.So the Muslim killed them but not the women and their children.
    Your ‘opera’ look bad Scott.

  290. ruth Says:

    Loop Jesus said,
    Matt 5-34-37..But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:
    Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
    Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
    But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these COMETH OF EVIL…

    Now lets see how mohammed contridicted him…then read the prededing sentence again and see THE EVIL..

    74.32] Nay; I swear by the moon,
    77.1] I swear by the emissary winds, sent one after another (for men’s benefit),
    [77.5] Then I swear by the angels who bring down the revelation
    79.1] I swear by the angels who violently pull out the souls of the wicked
    86.1] I swear by the heaven and the comer by night;
    [86.11] I swear by the raingiving heavens,
    89.1] I swear by the daybreak
    90.1] Nay! I swear by this city.
    91.1] I swear by the sun and its brilliance,
    92.1] I swear by the night when it draws a veil
    93.1] I swear by the early hours of the day,
    95.1] I swear by the fig and the olive
    100.1] I swear by the runners breathing pantingly,
    103.1] I swear by the time,

    THERE ARE MANY MORE OATHS FROM MOHAMMED IN KORAN

    DID NOT JESUS SAYS THIS IS EVIL?????..

    SHOULD I CONTINUE TO DISSECT THE KORAN FOR YOU LOOP..

  291. Loop Says:

    Wait Ruth. I just try to reply the Scott.

    OPEN YOUR EYES…LOOK AT BOTH SIDES…

    Killing of Women and Children According to the Bible

    1 Samuel 15:2,3

    2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”

    Numbers 31:17,18

    17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    Deuteronomy 20:16

    16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

    Killing of Women and Children According to Islam

    The Prophet made some exceptions to the Killing of Women and Children

    Imam Ibn Hajar Al Asaqalani says in Fath Al- Baari that the point is not to target the women and children intentionally but if there is absolutely no other way to kill the enemy than by injuring the women and children because they are mixed with the men then there is no other choice. (Source: http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=4747)

    Another possibility is that the hadith has been abrogated and that even if women and children accompany the enemy during war then they still should not be killed. (See http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=4747 for the evidence)

    Imam Nawawi says in his tafseer of Saheeh Muslim that women and children are only killed only if they cannot be distinguished. But because it was so dark and they could not be distinguished, the Muslims had not choice. (Source: http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=4215)

    The tafseer of Abu Dawud says the same thing here (Source: http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=4&Rec=3291)

    OPEN YOUR EYES…LOOK AT BOTH SIDES…There are some exception to the killing between Muslim and the Bible

  292. ruth Says:

    lOOP READ mATTHEW 16-13 THROUGH 23..
    iT SAYS (MUSLIMS,) PHARISEES, ETC THINK jESUS WAS A PROPHET.
    iT SAYS THE APOSTLES AND HIS FOLLOWERS KNOW HE IS son of god
    IT SAYS THIS IS REVEALED TO THEM BY GOD THE FATHER
    IT SAYS JESUS TOLD THEM HE WOULD DIE
    IT SAYS PETER DENIED JESUS WOULD DIE
    IT SAYS ONLY SATAN DENIES JESUS DEATH..

  293. ruth Says:

    john 3-18..He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    1 john 5-10
    He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    1 john 3-8.. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    1 john 2-22..Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. DOES ISLAM QUALIFY TO BE ANTICHRIST..

  294. e1313ruth Says:

    GOD SAID DO NOT KILL
    Koran said KILL
    God said do not lie
    Koran said lie
    God said do not commit adultery
    Koran said polygamy and 15 minute marriages and slave girls and little boys
    God said do not steal
    Koran said steal everything in sight and the land foremost
    God said do not swear by heaven, earth or your head
    Koran says swear by everything..

    Which way is the right way???

    Jesus said we will be judged by HIS WORDS..koran contridicts every word Jesus spoke..which way is right???

  295. wits0 Says:

    Army shooter’s mosque run by Muslim Mafia
    Islamic center preaches violent jihad, Shariah law

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=115465

    —————————————————————————–
    And Monkee shows his cavalier response as usual….

  296. IS BARACK OBAMA THE ANTICHRIST OR PRECURSOR?http://goldenheart888.wordpress.com/obama-antichrist-2/obama-antichrist « Jimmymarkjohnson's Blog Says:

    [...] the obamessiah (58 adulations) [...]

  297. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    You (Scott) said, we (Muslims) believe other than prophets are subject to sin or faulty like us. But you seem to believe 100% in Bukahari narration
    as well..

    It is true that majority Muslims placed Bukhari’s works better than other narrator, but to me (personally) he was a common people like us..

    No such thing in Quran says for instance.. “Refer to Bukhari hadiths for better understnading..” etc etc

  298. Scott Thong Says:

    That’s an excellent point, Nasaei. If I say Caliph Uthman could have made a mistake, who is to say that Bukhari did not make mistakes when compiling his records?

    But that just raises more questions – how much of the Hadith can therefore be believed as accurate? After all, most of it was compiled long after Mohammad had passed away.

    In fact, there are actually Muslim groups who reject the authority of the Hadith, and follow only the Quran. But I think that belief is officially not accepted in Malaysia. Do you know anything about this?

  299. Scott Thong Says:

    OPEN YOUR EYES…LOOK AT BOTH SIDES…There are some exception to the killing between Muslim and the Bible – Loop

    I will use just one simple, straightforward argument to rebutt all of yours…

    The Bible has some passages that may seem to command killing. The same might be said of the Quran.

    However, which religion today has its followers following those commands to kill?

    Tell me, when was the last time you heard a pastor inciting his congregation to kill nonChristians for the glory of God? (In contrast to this guy).

    When was the last time you read of a Catholic priest killing Amalekites? When was the last time we saw a Franciscan monk massacre Midianites and rape their virgin girls? When was the last news report about churchgoers summoning bears to attack pro-gay protestors?

    By contrast:

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
    2009.11.09 (Jolo, Philippines) – Abu Sayyaf militants cut the head off of a local school principal and leave it in a paper bag at a gas station.
    2009.11.09 (Yala, Thailand) – A young Buddhist man collecting plants is brutally ambushed and killed by Religion of Peace advocates.
    2009.11.09 (Peshawar, Pakistan) – A woman and a rickshaw driver are among three people blown up by a Shahid suicide bomber.
    2009.11.09 (Narathiwat, Thailand) – Islamists shoot and kill a 53-year-old riding home on his motorcycle.
    2009.11.08 (Rajouri, India) – A man and his wife are murdered in their home by intruding Islamic gunmen.
    2009.11.08 (Pattani, Thailand) – A young man eating in a restaurant is among two people killed in separate Mujahid shootings.

    You OPEN YOUR EYES…LOOK AT BOTH SIDES… And tell me which is likelier to have verses that actually command killing…

    The Bible which almost no Jew or Christian seems to use as an excuse to kill today?

    Or the Quran which Muslims seem to be using as a reason to kill every single day in Iraq, Afghanistan, South Thailand, Pakistan, Somalia etc.

  300. Scott Thong Says:

    Imam Ibn Hajar Al Asaqalani says in Fath Al- Baari that the point is not to target the women and children intentionally but if there is absolutely no other way to kill the enemy than by injuring the women and children because they are mixed with the men then there is no other choice. (Source: http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=4747) – Loop

    No wonder Palestinian militants always like to fire their rockets and mortars from among the midst of children and women!

    So does this mean that according to Imam Ibn Hajar Al Asaqalani, it is okay for Israeli fighter planes to bomb women and children if there are Hamas gunmen (dressed in women’s burqas) hiding among them?

    Palestinian Freedom Fighters Using Kids as Human Shields

    Haha! No wonder Israel ignores the UN resolutions condemning civilian casualties, it is Islamically okay according to their targets!

  301. Scott Thong Says:

    Your attitude that led this discussion degenerating into a contest of polemics.

    Let’s delve into the history of this very page, where we find your first appearance on this post:

    The koran has dozens of verses instructing Jesus to come back and kill people like YOU very soon.. – Loop, November 3, 09 at 12:42 am

    Before which, nobody had even addressed you on this page, as you hadn’t joined the discussion yet.

    So we see here your first appearance that begins with an insult, provocation and even threat against ruth, whose comment immediately precedes yours.

    And then you continue with comments attacking the Bible on the issue of hell and Ezekiel and ‘mass killings’, which is when I finally respond.

    So who began the polemics?

    And let’s go back to your very first appearance that I can remember (which is quite a feat, since you keep on changing your ID – something that would get you banned instantly by Susan Loone), at here, where you immediately begin by citing a convert from Christianity to Islam, then follow up with calling Buddhists and Christians ‘losers’ and calling me ‘jahil’ before I respond.

    So who began the polemics?

    So typical of your sort… Just like indignantly blaming the Crusades for starting the whole Christians-Muslims conflict, when 461 years of nonstop Muslim invasions preceded the First Crusade!

    I am very clear on my own commenting – I only begin polemics in the comments when a commentor starts first.

    Yes they made a peace treaty with Banu Qurayza(Jews) but the truth is these Jews double cross and try to attack Muslim from the back while the kuffars invaded Madina in a war from the front at that time.

    I have read the full story at here, and normally would rephrase it in my own words, but I find it very succinct and thus have excerpted portions directly:

    Shortly after arriving in Medina in 622, Muhammad began raiding the merchant caravans traveling to and from neighboring Mecca. He would steal their property and kill anyone who defended it (Ishaq 424-425). The Jews of Qurayza had nothing to do with this. Like the Meccans, the Jews were traders as well and appreciated the value of security in doing business. They neither encouraged Muhammad’s raids, nor shared in his ill-gotten gain.

    After a few years of this, the Meccans eventually realized that they would have to try and capture Medina, since it was being used as a base of operations by Muhammad and his pirates. In 627, they sent an army to the outskirts of the city and appeared poised to take it in what has been called the Battle of the Trench (Muhammad dug a trench around the exposed northern and western parts of the city to stop the Meccan military advance).

    The Qurayza, who lived to the east of Medina, were thus caught in a bad situation. Not responsible for Muhammad’s war, they were nonetheless drawn into it, particularly when they were approached by a Meccan leader and asked not to assist Muhammad in his defense against the siege (to that point, the Qurayza had contributed digging tools to the Muslims, but not fighters).

    The chief of the Qurayza did not wish to even entertain the Meccan envoy, but was tricked into allowing him into his home (Ishaq 674).

    After much “wheedling” by the Meccans, however, the Qurayza leader finally gave in and agreed to stay neutral in the conflict. He would neither contribute troops to the city’s defense nor to its impending capture at the hands of an army with superior numbers. The Muslims would be left on their own to finish what they started with Meccans.

    Muhammad claimed that this was a breach of the original constitution of Medina, which he had drawn up for the tribes five years earlier. Since its signing, however, a lot of water had gone under the bridge.

    For one thing, several prominent Jewish leaders and poets had been assassinated on Muhammad’s order. At least one innocent merchant was slain by his Muslim business partner following Muhammad’s order in 624 for his men to “kill any Jew who falls into your power” (al-Tabari 7:97). Neither had the “constitution of Medina” stopped the Muslims from attacking the other two Jewish tribes – parties to the same agreement – looting their property and then evicting them from their land.

    Contrary to popular misconceptions, however, the Qurayza did not attack the Muslims. Had they attacked, then it surely would have been the end of Muhammad and his band of pirates, since the southern end of the city was completely exposed to the Qurayza. In a terrible irony, it was the decision not to engage in violence that later sealed the fate of the Jews, who were only the first in a very long line of victims, all off whom horribly overestimated the value that Islam places on the lives of unbelievers.

    So it looks like Muhammad was the one doing the double-crossing, raiding caravans and even conquering two tribes despite the peace treaty he had with the Meccans.

    Do you disagree? Can you refute the citations from Ishaq and al-Tabari?

    So the Muslim killed them but not the women and their children.

    O rly? From the same link:


    Ibn Ishaq records the reaction of one woman who literally lost her mind as her family was being killed. The Muslims found her maniacal laughter annoying and beheaded her as well. As Aisha later recounted: “I shall never forget my wonder at her good spirits and her loud laughter when all the time she knew that she would be killed.” (Ibn Ishaq 691)

    Boys as young as fourteen were executed as well, provided that they had reached puberty. The Muslims ordered the boys to drop their clothes. Those with pubic hair then had their heads chopped off (Abu Dawud 4390). There was no point in trying to determine whether or not they were actual combatants because there were none. There had been no combat!

    Go ahead and refute Ibn Ishaq and Abu Dawud.

  302. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    If you don’t believe in Bukhari’s then what is the point you frantically pursue that particular hadiths several times after all?

    Probably we need some findings of the biology research as well..if it true
    if husband ejaculate first then the baby will be girl (not boy; or vice versa).

    Yet to mind, maybe in the intercourse, most of couples had it many times prior to getting their baby. The first time, hubby ejaculated first; in the second intercourse, the wife. The next, the next.. So your research must include the first timer ejaculation maybe. Or what the prophet meant..in 20 times, most of the time hubby were the first who ejec. We dont know if Bukhari made mistake or else. Please provide your finding/ research for better. You are Biologist by training, you should tell us human science etc

    And better to provide here those specific verses that “promote” killing for us to see. Do not truncate or leave the other earlier verses and if can, the related (from other Surah as well). This is to avoid misinterpretation.

    As for Bukhari hadith, he compiled thousands of them. If one of them is “erroneous” please don’t assume all of them are the same. (I think many are not been proved “scientifically” when refering to soul, day of judgment angels etc because science cannot prove such things).

    It is true Kassim Ahmad and his “anti-hadith” group reject them ALL.

    I think Muslim position is, we accept any of his hadiths as long as it doesn’t go against Quran. Doesn’t mean we accept all, reject all. Or we can leave it as it is.. it won’t hurt. Islam doesn’t reject anything that “won’t hurt”, even Confucious teaching. True.

  303. Scott Thong Says:

    We must not forget that JIHAD began in the Bible, where GOD Almighty Commanded His followers to fight for His Holy Cause. Let us look at what the Bible says about Jihad:

    GOD Almighty Chose the land of Palestine to be the Jews’ “Promise Land”, and thus, ordered them to go into it and fight the pagans there so they can have possession over it: – Loop

    So you agree that Palestine belongs to the Jews? ;)

    Again, there are no more Anakites for us to kill. So the command from God has finished.

    Sadly, the Islamic command to jihad is still being carried out, as ‘kuffar’ still refers to everyone who isn’t Muslim.

    Speaking of which…

    and they abuse the Arabic word “Jihad” and portray it as a reference to terrorism.

    Same old story, Loop… It isn’t Christians who ‘portray’ it as a reference to terrorism, it is Muslims themselves:

    Islamic Jihad Organization – the name used by telephone callers demanding the departure of all Americans from Lebanon and taking responsibility for a number of kidnappings and of bombings in Lebanon which killed several hundred people. Their deadliest attacks were the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing of French and U.S. MNF peacekeeping troops, and the April 1983 United States Embassy bombing in Beirut.

    Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine حركة الجهاد الإسلامي في فلسطين‎, this group defines jihad as acts of war against Israelis. Palestinian Islamic Jihad also opposes many other Arab governments, whom they see as being insufficiently Islamic and too Western. The PIJ’s armed wing, the Al-Quds brigades, has claimed responsibility for numerous terrorist attacks in Israel, including suicide bombings.

    Islamic Jihad of Yemen – الجهاد الإسلامي في اليمن is an al Qaeda terrorist affiliate that claimed responsibility for the 2008 American Embassy attack in Yemen. The group also threatened future attacks against other embassies, including those of Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and the United Kingdom.

    Turkish Islamic Jihad – claimed responsibly for the murder of an Israeli diplomat and the bombing of an Istanbul synagogue. They are also believed to be responsibly for a series of murders against Turkish journalists.

    You can add in Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami, Islamic Jihad Union, Hizbul Mujahideen, Jamaat-ul-Mujahideen Bangladesh, Mujahedin-e Khalq, and Supreme Military Majlis ul-Shura of the United Mujahideen Forces of Caucasus.

    Muslims like the above self-proclaimed ‘jihad means war’ groups are Islam’s own worst argument against ‘Islam means peace’.

    It’s so easy. When Muslims stop thinking jihad means war, then nonMuslims will too.

  304. Loop Says:

    ‘Army shooter’s mosque run by Muslim Mafia
    Islamic center preaches violent jihad, Shariah law
    —————————————————————————–
    And Monkee shows his cavalier response as usual….’

    You can say anything you like because this is the only book seems to me that belong to you:
    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060926183430AAOwHa2

    THONG! THONG! CHENG!

  305. Scott Thong Says:

    Please provide your finding/ research for better. You are Biologist by training, you should tell us human science etc – Nasaei

    I think what Muhammad meant was, whoever orgasms first, then the baby will look more like that person. This makes sense to a Medieval person – whoever orgasms first will get more of his/her material into the unformed child, so the resulting baby will look like that person more.

    Whereas modern science says that how much secretions or whose is first has no effect on the baby’s physical appearance. It is all based on the genes carried by the sperm and the ovum.

    Therefore, even if the man orgasms first, the baby can look like the mother. We can clearly see this in cases of artificial insemination, where the man orgasmed months or years earlier, while the woman does not orgasm at all! Yet the baby can look like the mother.

  306. Loop Says:

    So much to say. donno which to start. Let start with this one

    ‘Again, there are no more Anakites for us to kill. So the command from God has finished.”- Yes with JIHAD but your TERRORISM never end.

    9/11: The biggest lie in history!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E3oIbO0AWE
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-649993991751648213 (9/11 Justice)

    9/11: The biggest lie in history! (Part I) Watch this video from White-Americans (not Arab-Muslims) proving that the Pentagon-bombing was done by a Global Hawk drone! No human-bodies, no airplane-debris of boeing 757, and no luggage were found! Also, no noise was either recorded or detected by any ordinary person!

    Part II.

    Part III.

    Part IV.

    Building 7 & Twin Towers Demolition (“Deceptions” part 2) Did the building really collapse on its own?

    Painful Questions about September 11 -Part 1.

    Part II.

    Part III.

    Pentagon attack Analysis (“Deceptions” part 1)

    Media Deception from Oklahoma to 911 (“Deceptions” part 3)

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5651675924179685534&q=loose+change&hl=en (part 1)

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change&hl=en (part 2 and this one discusses the pentagon and united 93 crashes in more detail)

    A six-part video with ample evidence about the bombing of the Pentagon being A HOAX!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7zp-08Axi8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ4cNxFVNow&mode=related&search=
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rG7RoEW_Ak&mode=related&search=
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdUOTJaCkm0&mode=related&search=
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r81RCp7mqY&mode=related&search=
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSJws-Yxsyc&mode=related&search=

    What some Leaders and People-in-Charge Said:

    Bush Administration Insider Says U.S. Government Behind 9/11.

    An interview with the former German Defense Minister saying that the US carried out/helped with the 9/11 attacks!

    An interview with a former US Army General who also personally knows who shot down flight 93!

    Rumsfeld said flight 93 was shot down!

    NO MORE JIHAD BUT TERRORISM!

  307. Scott Thong Says:

    Here’s another proof using realistic engineering physics that 9/11 was an inside job:

    I’ll simply respond with one site that covers it all:

    Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

    And if you’re too lazy to check it out, just look at this first fun cartoon here:

    Bush Is Teh Roxxor Genius For Planning 9/11!!!

    NO MORE JIHAD BUT TERRORISM, sure thing, but as I said get all the Muslim terrorist groups to stop calling their violent actions jihad, and then the rest of us will stop too. No one would even know about this thing called ‘jihad’ if the Muslim terrorist groups didn’t use the word so much, yes?

  308. wits0 Says:

    Loop wears his leaden book on his head 24/7 and believe that’s all that is required to understand everything in the Universe – and beyond.

    He’ll need many more miserable lives(on earth) before he can begin even to understand the first opening line of the Ta Te Ching:

    “The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and
    unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and
    unchanging name.”

    Loop is incapable of abstract understanding because he is entirely earthy and earthbound in rigid brainwashed mental perception.

  309. Adifferentview Says:

    Caught in his own loop.

  310. wits0 Says:

    Caught in his own loop and stewing in his narcissistic hubris of (self) righteousness.

  311. Adifferentview Says:

    Give him enough loop and he’ll hang himself.

  312. ruth Says:

    Only a muslim who is capable of killing 3000 of his own people would accuse USA of doing 9-11..
    Islam is a dissigrace to the entire world and it is coming down faster than the twin towers they brought down..9-11 was a fatal mistake FOR Islam.. The people became aware of Islam and investigated it and have exposed the filthy lies since..IT only has a few seconds left on this earth..

    The koran is nothing but a manuel to create liars and killers….and it does as is evidenced by the actions of muslims..IT is demonic.. AND IT WAS CREATED BY AN ANGEL ALRIGHT, ONE OF THE FALLEN ANGELS.
    MUSLIMS ARE ENEMIES OF GOD AND are
    CHILDREN OF SATAN..

    Matthew23-15.. Islam encompasses land and sea to make one proseletye and when he is made he is two fold more a child of hell than his teachers…The proseltyization of Koran makes men into liars and killers..

    Jesus said woe, woe, woe, woe to the men whose doctrines was the exact same as Islam today… These woes are spoken of in Revelation… They have just begun…

  313. ruth Says:

    LOOP..
    GOD SAID….’I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel
    What do you think he will do to the muslims who have killed jews??????

  314. ruth Says:

    Why are muslims so dumb they do not know the angel who posed as Gabriel was one of the fallen angels????Have you never heard of DOCTRINES OF DEVILS…
    1 Ti 4-1..Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    wHY ARE MUSLIMS SO DUNB THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THE ONLY WAY satan could claim he is god is by claiming he is THE GOD OF ABRAHAM..
    Why are muslims so dumb they do not understand they are at war with god..This war is satan and his band trying to prove that he (allah) is the god of Abraham and that the bible is a lie and his koran the truth…

    The word Allah means THE GOD…The astrology moon god was called ALLAH a long time before mohammed lived…THIS IS HISTORY..The very first words of koran identiy who allah is.. It says Allah is the god of the WORLDS.. and he was.. He was the main god of all the 365 astrology gods of astrology lore.therefore he was the God of astrology worlds, ie. sun, moon and stars…
    There is much more evidence of this in koran

    MOHAMMED EVEN SLIPPED IN STAR 53, and named allahs three moon god daughters..

  315. wits0 Says:

    The guy who received Loop’s verses apparently did so during a trance state.

    A trance state is NOT a recognized or high state as a true meditative state in Oriental esoteric understanding. A trance state is where you can be easily possessed/invaded by demonic sources because you have no control. A temple medium e.g., need to have no particularly high enlightenment but when the act is done under the auspice of a reputable temple, the evil entities are kept away.

    Buddha’s enlightenment came from the highest meditative state, NOT a trance state.

  316. ruth Says:

    The gnostics and astrology lore both taught there are SEVEN HEAVENS.. so does koran….These seven heavens are the heavens that surround the 7 astrology worlds…all lies….
    There is one Heaven..IT is the heaven God created,, this heaven was corrupted,,and there is what Paul called the 3rd Heaven, this heaven is the same heaven as the one god created and the one satan corrupted but it has been restored.. Paul had a vision of the NEW RESTORED HEAVEN..
    The only heaven there is went through 3 phrases
    God creates Heaven- 1st heaven
    satan corrupt the heaven 2nd heaven
    new heaven after satan and his angels are kicked out.. third heaven..
    THESE THREE ARE ONE HEAVEN…
    Koran seven heavens of astrology lore…..
    2.29] He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.ASTROLOGY lie of 7 …

    17.44] The seven heavens declare His glory and the earth (too), and those who are in them; and there is not a single thing but glorifies Him with His praise, but you do not understand their glorification; surely He is Forbearing, Forgiving.

    23.17] And certainly We made above you seven heavens; and never are We heedless of creation.
    [23.86] Say: Who is the Lord of the seven heavens and the Lord of the mighty dominion?…
    The lord of the seven heavens and seven worlds is satan- astrology lore..

    65.12] Allah is He Who created seven heavens, and of the earth the like of them;
    7 heavens, and 7 worlds…astrology lore

    The Bible speaks of TWO FOUNDATIONS.. i.e. the foundation of the EARTH and the foundation of the WORLD
    tHE FOUNDATION OF THE earth is what god did in Genesis 1 and 2
    The foundation of the WORLD is in Genesis 3 when satan taught astrology lore about the worlds…the astrology worlds of sun, moon and stars.. Satan is truly the GOD OF THESE WORLDS..

    THIS FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD is what the Bible prophecies to end….iT IS HAPPENING NOW ..IsLAM IS NOTHING BUT ASTROLOGY LORE BUT HAS BEEN MONOTHEISED..

  317. wits0 Says:

    Loop can perhaps only play “hoop-a-loop” :
    http://funschool.kaboose.com/arcade/games/game_hoop-a-loop.html

    But what makes him think he’ll even win there?

  318. Loop Says:

    “Give him enough loop and he’ll hang himself.”

    Ive been thinking and you are right again adifferentview (but won’t hang myself-really big big sin for me) But Scott never bleeding too. He will keep on singing.Pretty sure because he is ‘the Opera’.

    – Kulup.

  319. Loop Says:

    Hmmm..nice play too, ruth

  320. e1313ruth Says:

    sorry guys.. I just keep getting carried away…I love you all but I hate Islam…

  321. e1313ruth Says:

    Loop, we are trally trying to help you …..The truth alone can set you free..Islam and koran is not the truth

  322. wits0 Says:

    Monkee, of course, can never comprehend:

    Fort Hood killings ‘incomprehensible,’ Obama says
    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/11/10/fort.hood.memorial/

  323. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Better be focus, not go ‘out of proportion’. Better use your mental prowess to make a “very simple” thing understandble by many people, by the world !.. including Christians themselves. (I believe many Christians themselves DO NOT COMPREHEND IT TOO !! If you ask 200 Christian men, you’ll get 200 version of ‘trinity’ maybe.

    Tell the world, WHAT TRINITY IS! Take 10 or 20 pages..explain it!

  324. e1313ruth Says:

    Nasaei
    Show me the word trinity in the Scriptures…..
    John knew Jesus, and he told us that Jesus, who is the word, is the god of the beginning.. in John 1-1
    And the beginning is Genesis 1-1 which says Genesis 1-1 IN THE BEGINNING GOD.

    Jesus told Peter to baptise in the NAME of the father, son and holy ghost…
    Peter baptised in the NAME OF JESUS because Peter knew Jesus was the name of the father, name of the son and name of the holy ghost…

    JESUS SAID NO MAN KNOWS WHO THE FATHER IS BUT THE SON ..This means only the sons or children of god know who the father is..

  325. e1313ruth Says:

    luke 10-22..All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].

  326. Scott Thong Says:

    Loop seems to be getting fatigued – such short replies which are hardly coherent, and no lengthy polemical attacks.

    (The insults are still there though – what’s up Loop, you resort to invoking foreskins because you miss yours? lol!)

    Or perhaps Loop is feeling pressured, as four commentors (myself included) are sparring with him/her/it?

    Quick someone! Take Loop’s side! If he/she/it quits these comments, where will I find my daily amusement?

  327. Scott Thong Says:

    If you ask 200 Christian men, you’ll get 200 version of ‘trinity’ maybe.

    Tell the world, WHAT TRINITY IS! Take 10 or 20 pages..explain it! – Nasaei

    Have you actually tried? Anyone from any of the four churches I have regularly attended at different stages in my life can quickly answer: “The Trinity is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.”

    Just because something is complex, does not mean it is not true. Take God existing without being created – can you explain how that is possible and how it makes sense? If you cannot, does that mean it is not true?

  328. wits0 Says:

    Loop can relax and maintain a modicum of humanity by playing more harmless computer games(nary created by “allah’s best people”).

    Polemics are, for most of the time, just stale parroting and means little if the person cannot present things(understanding) in his own words. Polemics of the rote-book quoting sort hides an intent to impress like a pundit without personal understanding involved.

    I’ve no difficulty with the Christian Concept of TRINITY. Some ideas are meant to be understood by an application of an abstract mind. Not everything can be understood otherwise. Literalist and hair splitters have their own inherent difficulties.

    If you don’t have a a good measure of the abstract mind, how do you understand poetry? How do you have natural imaginations? You’ll probably stay pretentiously prideful and locked within your own assumptive beliefs.

  329. Cleaves Says:

    Believe you have to consider all aspects in the current economic climate – personally do no think we have seen the full extent of the recesssion, so would be cautious in considering.

  330. Adifferentview Says:

    We believe some things though we don’t understand them. Nothing wrong with that on the whole, especially when we accept that we are human and thus, finite. Finite in lifespan, finite in understanding. The Trinity? Difficult to grasp, even for theologians, and often explained by parallels drawn from human life. The fact that it is not truly understood does not mean that it is not believed. Scott is right when he says that a normal churchgoer can affirm, “The Trinity is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.”

  331. Scott Thong Says:

    Uh, wits… I think your concepts are about ten or eleven levels too high for Loop to grasp. I mean, just consider the comprehensibility of his/her/its second last comment:

    But Scott never bleeding too. He will keep on singing.Pretty sure because he is ‘the Opera’. – Loop

    Seriously, what is that supposed to mean?

    Maybe we’re both wrong, wits… Loop’s ranting seem very abstract to me!

  332. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I am pretty sure Loop still have many bullets with him..and flowers as well.
    Take your nap Loop..

    and come back.

  333. silverdevil Says:

    Yeah and then I`ll throw in the silver bullets for loony loopy

  334. hutchrun Says:

    Loop Says: But Scott never bleeding too. He will keep on singing.Pretty sure because he is ‘the Opera’.
    ____________________________________________

    Most people in Lancre, as the saying goes, went to bed with the chickens and got up with the cows.
    [footnote: Er. That is to say, they went to bed at the same time as the chickens went to bed, and got up at the same time as the cows got up. Loosely worded sayings can really cause misunderstandings.]

    — (Terry Pratchett, Maskerade)

  335. e1313ruth Says:

    Loop, better than the explanation of the word trinity is the reason God himself became a man….
    One of the reasons was to give man an example to follow and be restored as SONS OF GOD..
    Adam was GOD’S SON simple because God indwelled him.. God breathed his spirit into Adam and God indwelled him. and Adam was a son of god..
    But satan as he does today with Islamic doctrine knew full well the way to make Adam lose God’s spirit was to teach Adam lies.And he did
    God is the spirit of truth, when Adam believed the lies of satan he lost the truth, consequently he lost God’s indwelling spirit…It is this spirit that makes men into SONS OF GOD….After original sin Adam became a son of satan… If you do not beleive it read Gensis 3-22… It says Adam became like the one who taught him good and evil..
    So God himself came to earth as a man to show man the way back to sonship… The baptism of Jesus was example for men to follow…Water Baptism, AND baptism of Holy Ghost and God as he did Jesus declares you a SON OF GOD…PRETTY SIMPLE…
    JESUS TEMPTATION WAS ALSO for example for men to follow when they encounter satan’s last day temptation of Rev 3 – 9, 10…Let me show you
    Satan said to Jesus”””FALL DOWN and worship me as the god (of Abraham) and I will give you the world (in jihad)…”””Muslims believe satan.. Christians do not..
    .
    John 20-22…And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: This alone brings eternal life to man…

    Man is saved by faith in the SON OF GOD..He is not saved by GNOSTIS of Islam

  336. e1313ruth Says:

    John 3-3..Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God

    John 3-18…He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    You cannot be restored as a SON OF GOD if you do not believe in Jesus THE SON OF GOD..So you remain condemned from Adam’s inheritance to you..

    Satan does not want to let go of muslims..That is why he denies JESUS IS SON OF GOD in Islamic doctrines..

    1 John 2-22.Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    1 John 4-3…And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    2 John 1-2..For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    Islam is antichrist.

  337. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Hehehe..AntiChrist? But we Muslim are not anti Jesus.. He was and IS our beloved prophet..like Abraham, David, Moses etc.

    I dont think Jesus ever said, for example: “My religion and my teaching..my preaching…you all should called it “CRISTIAN”.

    You must investigate well where does this word came from..a translation of what/ which word.

  338. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    The are several article on the net about the 9/11 conspiracy. Not Muslim who suggested it, but Americans ! Get the article on the net NOW..

  339. e1313ruth Says:

    Nasaei..read this carefully…
    John 3-18…He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    you do not believe in the name of the son of god..YOU BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF A FICTIONAL MAN CALLED ISSA THAT IS NOT SON OF GOD…

    Satan does not want anyone to be restored as sons of god..

  340. Unak Says:

    “Not Muslim who suggested it, but Americans !”

    VERY TRUE………which is why they need more Fort Hoods and Sept 11. Allahu Akbar!!

  341. e1313ruth Says:

    UNAK.. those are words of war you are speaking.. 9-11 cost muslims two countries.. Not to mention the fact Islam has been dissected from h to breakfast and it is crumbling..Are you sure you can handle more 9-11s and lunitics muslimsingrate who sponge off usa and bite the hand that feeds him..

  342. e1313ruth Says:

    Unak remember the mohammed sniper put to death yeasterday..and think before you speak..
    9-11 and fort hood are actions of war…It has already cost muslims 2 countries and islam before it is over.

  343. Unak Says:

    “and think before you speak..”

    U should learn to read and understand before you shoot off your mouth. In fact you should not only think, but cogitate in depth.
    Just as it is your right to pray to whatever, it is equally my right to wish for more Sept 11s and Fort Hoods till the Americans wake up. And if you have problems with that it certainly is not my bother. It is Hilarious Clinton`s problem and you goody a*sehole liberals spouting your love and peace and brotherhood crap.
    And why should it bother you if many muslims die, that is jihad. Let us die, but can you freaky whiteys take it. No way, already Afghanistan is a big mess with that Blackie in the White House and the US Army has already handed over Kandahar to the taliban. You are losing baby. You gonna die whitey as our suicide bombers exact a greater death toll on the US.
    Already the Pope is our slave and our mosque is in the Vatican. It is only a matter of time.

  344. Unak Says:

    US BAW (Black And White) Minstrel Show as Blackie Gandhi tries to get out of Afghanistan

    http://news.malaysia.msn.com/top-stories/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3700951

  345. kesava Says:

    “,,The violence at Fort Hood, President Obama told mourners on Tuesday, was “incomprehensible.” The “twisted logic that led to the tragedy,” he reiterated, may be “too hard to comprehend.” If the Bush administration suffered a systemic failure of imagination on homeland security, the Obama administration is suffering an willful failure of comprehension.

    What exactly is so hard to comprehend? Fort Hood jihadist Nidal Hasan made his means, motives, and inspiration all too clear for those willing to see and hear. In his 2007 slide presentation to fellow Army doctors on “The Koranic World View As It Relates to Muslims in the Military,” Hasan spelled it out: “We love death more then (sic) you love life!”…”
    http://michellemalkin.com/2009/11/11/p-c-in-the-u-s-a-a-deadly-bipartisan-infection/

  346. Dolby Says:

    Believe you have to consider all aspects in the current economic climate – personally do no think we have seen the full extent of the recesssion, so would be cautious in considering.

  347. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    My friends say Dead Sea Scroll conformed only with a part of the Bible. How about the other parts of the Bible? Intact?

  348. Adifferentview Says:

    The Dead Sea Scrolls have FRAGMENTS of 38 of the books of the OT (Protestant Bible). One complete scroll of Isaiah is present. The Scrolls are NOT THE OT. Still, they are important becoz they come from the time of the 1st century BCE. They are far older than the Masoretic Text, the Hebrew version of the OT. What is significant is that they are agree with the Masoretic Text as well as variants.

  349. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    How about the integrity of 65 other Bible’s part/ books? (let’s say minus Isaah, and the 7 apocryphals). Who wrote those 7 compilations ?

  350. Barbara Hickey Says:

    I have been amazed at this blogsite. I am not an Obama fan–far from it. He is destroying our country! Only Jesus can save us from the destruction that he is bringing on us in America. Thanks for putting this together. I have forwarded this to all my friends.

  351. Scott Thong Says:

    Thanks! You may also be interested in the many ways that Obama has disregarded Christian traditions, even while promoting Muslim ones..

  352. Scott Thong Says:

    Thanks! You may also be interested in the many ways that Obama has disregarded Christian traditions, even while promoting Muslim ones.

  353. wits0 Says:

    I SAID ALL ALONG B. HUSSEIN = MUSLIM
    http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_21737.shtml

  354. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    While Muslims believe there is no human’s words to be found in the Quran, what do you all think about Bible? Does it contain 100 percent word of God, or some of the verses were man’ ideas? What vever it is, Muslims believe Bible (Injeel) is definitely revealed by God Almighty to guide mankind at times of Jesus (pbuh).

    Anyone with ideas please clarify it, so that we keep learning. Remember, not all ordinary men know everything about the holy scriptures be it Bible or Quran. tq

  355. Scott Thong Says:

    Officially, God inspired the writers of the Bible with the topic and content, but did not ‘mind control’ them or use them as puppets. Perhaps you can compare it to God being a teacher giving out guided composition homework, and the writers of the Bible each use their individual style to carry out the assignment.

    That is why those who study the New Testament in its original Greek have said that Paul’s letters are very fluent (he was trained as a learner Pharisee and held Roman citizenship), while Peter’s letters contain atrocious Greek (he was a simple fisherman).

  356. ruth Says:

    Nasaei, sorry to tell you this but if Mohammed had been a prophet of God he would have understood the Bible and all of the parables.. He did not…He did not even understand the first sealed mystery of Gensis 1-26..Jesus clarified this mystery in Matthew 13 -35 through 40..It is about the children of god and the children of satan…These are referred to as SEEDS and these are the two seeds of Gensis 3-15, another sealed mystery of which mohammed was totally ignorant..
    Face it Satan sent a blind, deaf, and dumb man to try to confound the wisdom of god..It is finished now…
    I love you Nasaei and speak only for your enlightenment…

  357. ruth Says:

    Nasaei.. about Genesis 1-26 of which mohammed was ignorant…
    This verse is not about the creation of man…Genesis 1-27 is about the creation of man… Whereas Genesis 1-26 is a prophecy and a sealed mystery as Jesus affirms in Mtthew 13 -35-40…
    This verse (gen 1-26) is about the re-making of man..Men are either born again of CHrist and become the image and likeness of god…But some men are transformed by proseltyizing of satan’s version of god’s word.. and made into the likeness and image of satan, i.e. children of satan as Matt. 23 -15 informs..
    The Bible says THE SEED is the word of God and the good seed are the children of god…Translated this means those who believe the word of god are god’s children..
    The tares are those in the likeness and image of satan sowed by satan….translated this means those who believe satans lies are transformed into satan’s children..
    As I see it , the Bible is the word of God and the Koran is a wannabe….but it just cannot make it because it’s author was so ignorant of the mysteries and was also himself an unbeliever in the Bible..

    Note: Genesis 1-26 uses the word MAKE MAN.. It does not use the word CREATE MAN (Gen 1-27)…These are two completely seperate events..

    And we still love you Nasaei!!!!

  358. ruth Says:

    Nasaei.. The entire Bible is the word of god, Word for word, comma for comma…Jesus said ‘His words will stand forever”
    The feat is to find the real amidst so many counterfeits.. Jesus said to search for the pearl of great price..as you are doing…
    The solution is to accept Jesus, the real Jesus who is son of god and god in flesh and he will lead you into all truth..

    I have found the original kjv to be the best and most accurate…
    Satan has tried to make the Bible obscure by diluting it via many versions of the Bible…He does not do likewise with the koran because he wants it to appear as the only word of god.. It isn’t even close..

  359. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Ruth, by Islam’s viewpoint, any Muslim, if he or she does not accept Jesus.. he or she is actually NOT a Muslim (“disqualified” automatically). So Muslims always accept Jesus (pbuh) as a Messiah (Quran called him “al-Masih”=Messiah).

    But we Musslims NEVER called Jesus ‘god’ because he is not. God Almighty sent him to be messiah or great prophet to fulfill revelations and deliver messages from God to all mankind DURING HIS TIME. That was the ‘grey areas’ of differences between us (and Jews) – the three brotherly abrahamic faith/beliefs that obviously originated from the very same believe.

    I have slighly different view regarding the Bible’s “word of God”. I’ll comment next, after the one week leave starting tomorrow.

  360. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Ruth, I was made to understand that in 1 Corinthians 7.25 Paul said he was about to write a passage or some verses that was NOT from God. If that was the case, obviously Bible also contains man’s words. This is gravely serious (if it true). Could be I have mistaken because I didn’t open the Bible and see the said verses myself. Please clarify. Thanks

  361. ruth Says:

    Nasaei… Do you think the men who wrote the Bible were mindless willess salves with no personal opinions..???
    You missed the entire point.. Being that Paul was able to discern his individual thoughts from the revelations of God.. A feat not easy to accomplish..

    I have had many revelations from the Lord, but I always search myself to make sure these do not arise out of my own mind or personal experiences…And I always wait for verification which always comes..

    Again I will ask you Nasaei, to whom was god speaking in genesis 1-26…Mohamed did not know this sealed mystery though it is expounded by Jesus in Matthew 13 -35 through 40.. Mohammed was not a prophet..
    He did not understand the prophesies and parables in the Bible, none of them..He contridicted every word of the Bible and every word of Jesus..
    Jesus said He would build his church on the revealed knowledge that JESUS IS SON OF GOD…Mohammed built his church on the LIE THAT JESUS IS NOT SON OF GOD..which qualifies Islam to be antichrist.

    Have you even considered that twice satan challenged Jesus as to whether he was SON OF GOD in the temptation??? Matt. 4..Satan also offered the kingdoms of the world if Jesus would FALL DOWN and worship him as god.. Of course he meant the god of Abrham.. That is the only god there is..The world is being tempted as Jesus was with the lies of Islam.. and if they FALL DOWN and worship him as the god of Abraham he gives them the world in jihad..BETTER WAKE UP Nasaei.. It is almost finished.

  362. ruth Says:

    The Bible says satan is THE GOD OF THE WORLD and has blinded unbeleivers…..Koran 1-1 says allah is the god (lord) of the worlds. koran has blinded unbelievers

  363. Scott Thong Says:

    Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. – 1st Corinthians 7:25

    Here Paul simply states his opinion about the matter of marriage vs not marrying, and makes it clear that this is his own opinion and not a command from God so that the listeners do not misunderstand. One could say that the following verses therefore contain mere ‘man’s words’.

    It may be an issue with the Quran, but it is not an issue for the Bible. Whereas the Quran is supposed to have been dictated word for word by Allah as instructions, the Bible is not a list of directives from YHWH. It never claims to be. It also contains, for example, historical records.

    In those records, we read of various people who utter sinful or incorrect words – such as the Assyrian’s insults or the mistaken assumptions made by Job’s friends. It is clear that these sayings are not inspired by God, yet are included for us as an example and a lesson. (God later corrects Job’s friends and defeats the Assyrian army to drive home this point.)

    Again, the fact that ordinary men’s words are recorded in the Bible is not an issue for Christians – it does not invalidate the Bible, which we do not regard as literally spoken from the mouth of YHWH and recorded word for word by a secretary taking a transcript.

    PS. If one were to raise the issue of ‘outsider’s words in holy texts’, one might also ask about Sūra an-Najm after verse 20, in conjunction with Quran 22:52.

  364. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    Brthr. Scott, what can you understand from Quran 53:20 and 22:52 ? I’m afraid you would possibly got the “invalid” wrong interpretation. Three years ago, in my communication with him, a staunch atheist named Syed Kamran Mirza told me..that Quran claim something about those Uzza and Manaat. If you got it (correct translation), that is fine. (Syed Mirza posted many anti Islam articles on the net, if anybodey search it, they’ll get those
    articles and the profile of the writer.)

  365. Nasaei Ahmad Says:

    I came acrossed in many occasions that some Quranic verses seem to be ‘equal’ or in agreement/ in harmony in its message, with the Holy Bible, though not many (verses). Of course, they are not precisely verbatim, but connoted almost the same meaning.

    However I cannot agree to the suggestions “Muhammad copied Bible” because many statements were not mentioned in the Bible, after all. For example, after eating from ‘the knowledge tree” (we Muslim called it Khuldi tree but not “knowledge”..) then God is said to be “searching all over over for Adam..” (roughly. You cannot find in the Holy Quran “God searching” Adam. It seems half-told, half added or so.. I don’t know.

    Any ideas ?

  366. raintree Says:

    What happens immediately after Adam and Eve eat from the Tree.

    In the immediate aftermath of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, Adam hears “the voice of God strolling in the Garden”, and he hides, aware that he is naked. It is interesting that it is the hearing God’s voice — not anything in particular that God says, but just the awareness of His voice — that prompts Adam’s anxiety. Having just hearkened to the snake’s gambit, having accepted, if only because he wanted to, the idea that God really speaks to me through my instinct, through the voice inside me — at that moment, hearing the voice of God coming from the outside was especially jarring. It was a stark reminder that God does, indeed, speak to man with words; that His expectations go beyond our simply yielding to the engine inside us, letting it take us where it will.

    Adam’s anxiety takes the form of discomfort over his nakedness. Interestingly, the emotion Adam talks about here is not embarrassment — what we might have expected from someone who just realized he is naked — but fear:

    I was afraid because I was naked and I hid (ibid. 3:10).

    Fear is a world away from embarrassment. I become embarrassed when a peer teases me, when I make a gaffe in public; I am afraid, on the other hand, of something I sense is bigger than me, of something beyond my control, of something that can crush me. Before he ate from the tree, Adam was well aware that he was naked; he just wasn’t afraid of it. Sexuality, in the old world, had been just a natural part of life — why bother with clothes? Now, though, things felt different. Sexuality — the biological manifestation of our drive to create — was stronger, more overwhelming, now. Nakedness — direct, unfiltered confrontation with our own sexuality — is now a source of fear.

    These newly powerful passions, this drive to create — it may be godly; it may be intoxicating; but it can also crush me, can’t it? How does one steer an engine as fearsome as this?

  367. Celtrixa,stretch mark creams,stretch marks Says:

    Will it work on any kind of scar or simply stretch marks?

  368. Scott Thong Says:

    It depends. Obama has massively stretched spending and the deficit, and that will definitely leave some major marks… But the bigger issue is if his ineptness will leave a deep and permanent scar on the American psyche.

  369. Francis+ Says:

    Obama has never claimed to be the Messiah; he was raised as a Christian by a devout grandmother who would have slapped him silly if he’d thought of it.

    It is sadly true that some liberals, because they are human (and thus created by God in His own image), have tried to pin the title “Messiah” on President Obama. It is due to their ignorance and desire for faith– I remember very similar things being said by non-religious Republicans, and pictures taken by the conservative press, of Ronald Reagan during his ‘Morning in America’ campaign. (It is ridiculously easy to “halo” any president by simply putting his face in tight focus with the Presidential Seal, unfocused, behind his head… I did it myself in a joke pic. I took of the Assistant Pastor at my church with a round stained glass window, for his birthday!). The fact that it is true doesn’t say anything bad about those unchurched liberals (or the earlier unchurched Reagan Republicans– and some are still deifying the Gipper)– but it condemns those of us who are believers, and have failed in the Great Commission, have failed to bring the Good News of Christ Crucified to so many Americans. If they do not know Christ Jesus, it is because no one has told them about Him in a way that reaches their hearts. Whose fault is that: theirs, or ours?

    No, Obama is not the Messiah. The Messiah has already come. We crucified Him. [And for those of you who are carefully working out his return according to a fig tree's lifespan: remember the Millenial scare, or if you're a little older, the best-selling 'Late Great Planet Earth'? Or if you're really historical-minded, look up the Millerites. Announcing Jesus' return is a fool's hobby, according to the one person who would know: Jesus said that He would come when we least expect Him, as a thief in the night. Instead of worrying about the date of His return, we´re better off re-reading the 25th Chapter of Matthew's Gospel, verses 31 to 46.]

    Obama, whose first name, Barack, also means “blessing” in Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke), and is very close to the Hebrew word, ‘baruch’, is not the Messiah. He’s a relatively mainstream Protestant Democrat (anyone who wasn’t relatively mainstream wouldn’t have gotten elected).

    His Hawaiian birth was officially verified by the Justice Department under President George W. Bush, as well as being (grudgingly) vouched for by the Republican governor of that state. As a retired Naval officer, I know what kind of detail the feds go to when they do security clearances… if there was any chance that he had been born outside the United States (or its territories– Arizona wasn’t a state yet when McCain was born), believe me, they’d catch it. The feds have a little file on me that probably includes what I ate for breakfast on my eighth day of second grade, because I was assigned to boomer submarines– they have a much thicker file on every presidential candidate.

    No, his transcripts from his universities aren’t public record– neither are mine, and what grade I received in Intro to Biology in 1974 is no one’s business… and what grades he received isn’t either. My Selective Service records aren’t available for anyone to read– it’s no one else’s business that my ohysical showed that I had/never had whooping cough as a child. If Obama had served in the military (before becoming Commander in Chief) those records would be sealed, too… mine are. We value our privacy in America. [I took a language course at a university in Portugal, and was shocked to see all students' names and grades listed on the wall by the door at the end of the semester-- that would never happen in the US. Why do we think that, because a man runs for public office, we're all allowed to pry into every corner of his life, whether or not it has anythiing to do with the job?]

    Rather than ‘majoring in the minors’, let’s instead recognize that, like him or not, Obama was elected by the majority of the American people to be the President of the United States. He’s apparently doing a decent job, since the far-left is mad at him for not pulling all the troops out of everywhere and legalizing drugs, and the far right is mad at him for everything else.

    What we really need to be doing, instead of debating whether or not he’s the Messiah or the anti-Christ (he’s not, either one), is holding him up in prayer, for our sake, for his sake, and for the sake of our nation and our world. We don’t have to like him… there’s nothing in Scripture about “liking”. We do have to love him– not because he’s President, and not because he’s Obama, or black, or a Democrat (do you really think that God cares about any of those things?), but because God made him, in God’s own image. We have to love him because Jesus loves him enough to have died for him.

    And we have to pray for him because, whether we like him or not, he is a human being, and a human being in a job that is quite simply too hard for any human being to do without the help of the Almighty. And whether we like him or not, we don’t want him to fail at that job, because the decisions he makes affects not just each of us, but our children and grandchildren and their grandchildren.

    That doesn’t mean “pray that he succeeds at whatever he wants”; it means “pray that God will guide him in the ways of justice, and mercy, and love”. It means that we must pray that, when Obama proposes something that is what God wills– that fits in with Matthew 25:31ff,for example– Congress and the Courts will support it, because it is God’s will for God’s people. And we must also pray that he, and Congress, and all those in government, be allowed to fail when they push for things which are counter to God’s will for His people.

    If we are Christian, we must remember that it’s not about politics. If we are Christian, we must remember that it’s not even about America. When God looks at us, at the people He made on the planet He created, He doesn’t see our national boundaries: those were made by human beings (and usually at gunpoint!). God sees us, all of us, made by Him in His own image. We divide ourselves up into Americans and Mexicans and Chinese and Ugandans and whatever; we divide ourselves into whites and blacks and Asians and Native Americans and whatever. ‘God made us, male and female He made us, in His own image’. And as Jesus made clear in the “cross-border” parable of the Good Samaritan, God isn’t interested in our political party or our skin color or our passport… just our hearts.

    And thus, if we are going to claim to be Christians in our deeds and not just by baptism (and I for one claim to at least be actively trying to be Christian in deed, although it’s a goal I may never fully attain on this side of the Veil), then we must truly love Barack Obama, because Jesus does, and pray for him, because he, just like each one of us (and Obama even more because of his position), is truly standing in the need of prayer.

  370. Scott Thong Says:

    If they do not know Christ Jesus, it is because no one has told them about Him in a way that reaches their hearts. Whose fault is that: theirs, or ours?

    A little bit of both, really – stubbornness, hubris and selfishness on the one, ssanctimoniousness, hypocrisy, confrontation and apathy on the other. But in the end, it is the Holy Spirit which convicts an individual of his/her state of sin and need of forgiveness.

    He’s a relatively mainstream Protestant Democrat (anyone who wasn’t relatively mainstream wouldn’t have gotten elected).

    Well, as far as 20 years of anti-Semitism and Black Liberation Theology are relatively mainstream. To say nothing of scrapping decades-old Presidential Christian traditions in favour of including new outreaches to Muslims.

    http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/what-kind-of-christian-is-obama/

    Why do we think that, because a man runs for public office, we’re all allowed to pry into every corner of his life, whether or not it has anythiing to do with the job?

    Because, Sarah Palin.

    He’s apparently doing a decent job, since the far-left is mad at him for not pulling all the troops out of everywhere and legalizing drugs, and the far right is mad at him for everything else.

    Which people someone ticks off is not a very good standard of measurement for job success, IMHO. I prefer to look at objective values such as economic indicators.

    http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2009/10/05/youth-engagement-summit-yes-to-base-their-change-on-obamas-massive-failures/

    To wit, people hated Bush with gusto for everything from Iraq to border control, but he managed to reduce the deficit even through two wars and Katrina.

    What we really need to be doing, instead of debating whether or not he’s the Messiah or the anti-Christ (he’s not, either one), is holding him up in prayer, for our sake, for his sake, and for the sake of our nation and our world.

    Amen to the entire few paragraphs on this line of thought! My sentiments exactly, despite what Limbaugh may feel.

    http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/12/09/why-this-conservative-hopes-president-obama-will-succeed/

    Thanks for your well reasoned comment, Francis+!

  371. bleep Says:

    “he was raised as a Christian by a devout grandmother who would have slapped him silly if he’d thought of it.”

    Obama became christian when he was 30 or so when he married, I dont know what he was before that even if his grandmother had slapped him silly.
    But let`s hear it from Black Beauty`s own mouth

  372. bleep Says:

  373. bleep Says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Auwe-aGF4Lo&feature=related

  374. bleep Says:

    http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

  375. bleep Says:

    Advice for Israel in dealing with Obama

    Rush Limbaugh, Fred Thompson and Rudy Giuliani have advice for Israel to deal with Iran here.
    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTU4YzgyMjc3Y2RhN2ZmMGNmNzcyZDE1YWJkMzNlNDU=&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

  376. janiez_lim Says:

    The Jewish people, both in Israel and the diaspora, seem to be suffering from the Stockholm Syndrome. There can be no logical reason why an American Jew could intellectually excuse Obama’s twenty-year friendship and closeness with the anti-Semitic Farrakhan acolyte Jeremiah Wright. There is no way an American Jew could explain away or rationalize Obama’s connections to Rashid Khalidi, Ali Abunimah, Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, and know about those connections without knowing what was coming. These Jews (and our history is plagued with them) love ideas, not people. They are so married to their dogma, their ideology, that they cannot, will not, see what is right in front of them. They worship at the church of human secularism. That is their religion. They have no G-d. They are merely wearing a Jewish coat, but do not speak for Jews.
    http://bigjournalism.com/pgeller/2010/03/25/barack-hussein-obama-iis-war-against-israel/

  377. janiez_lim Says:

    The Brits need it sooner than later
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/7500719/Nuclear-terror-risk-to-Britain-from-al-Qaeda.html

  378. Father Francis+ Says:

    While there is no question that Obama is NOT the Messiah (when He returns in power and great glory, we’ll know about it– just re-read Matthew 25:31-40), your pictures at #66 are way off base. The picture on the prayer candles in not of Barack Obama, but of St. Martin de Porres. Martin de Porres (December 9, 1579 – November 3, 1639) was a lay brother of the Dominican Order who was beatified in 1837 by Pope Gregory XVI and canonized in 1962 by Pope John XXIII. If you google his name, you’ll find exactly that same picture, or look at . For the sake of your site’s credilbility (and as I said, Obama may be President of the United States, but he´s not the Messiah!), you should remove those two pictures, as they raise doubts about the rest of your fact-checking, and about how believable your site is in general.

  379. Scott Thong Says:

    Oho, thanks for the heads up on that! I’ll add in an update to #66 and reduce the current count by one.

    And I’m not entirely sure from your comment’s wording, but just to be clear, I’m actually mocking the liberal obsession with Obama as a new age messiah.

  380. Squeeky Fromm - Girl Reporter Says:

    Well, number 110 could be labeled:

    Obama, God of “Kali”fornia???

    Isn’t she the multi-armed Indian Deity??? OH, google is my friend.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  381. hutchrun Says:

    “I’m shocked to see how many pathetic empty lives there are in this country, that need to grasp at the concept of a mere man being the Messiah. This is downright creepy.” – kathy

    I call him the Mossiah in the White House (it`s his “white horse”)
    ……….wait n see how creepy that gets.

  382. Marjani Says:

    Fortunately Light-V-Dark, you’re entitled to your opinion.

    Unfortunately for YOU, only you and a few other drug-dependent “groupies” with conspiracy theories written on heads of lettuce that they call “Leader’ agree with you.

    Goodbye and good luck with that.

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