My response was derived from Tim Stratton‘s Deity of Deception argument. I said:
1) If theology has no human aspect [then God is responsible for all theological beliefs];
2) Considering all the different theological views, therefore God is intentionally giving a majority of Christian wrong beliefs;
3) This is not workable [God is deceptive, God is not truth, God arbitrarily leads us into untruths].
As a side note, in social media circles the theological exhaustive determinist has so far always dodged, handwaved or fudged their response to this dilemma!
I started this playlist awhile back, aiming to provide one example from each source that pushes back against Calvinism. The list has now reached 60+ examples.
The purpose of this list is twofold: As a quick reference for Scriptural and logical refutations of Calvinism; and to demonstrate that you are not alone and not crazy, there are many serious Christians from across a wide swathe of different denominations who do not accept Calvinism either!
Warren McGrew: ‘Well you know, if I’m elect and my children aren’t, you know, that’s okay.’ And I just wanted to highlight how that’s the same kind of spirit and mindset that the ancient worshippers of pagan deities would engage in, when they would sacrifice their children to Baal. Because as long as I get my good crops, I’m willing to throw my child on the pyre. As long as I am being blessed financially, I’m willing to throw my child on the pyre. It’s the same mindset where they’re like well, God may have eternally reprobated my child, but as long as I get into heaven I’m cool with that.
The phrase ‘That’s okay’ can be construed as ‘I don’t care’ but can also just mean ‘accepted’. Similarly, ‘cool with that’ can be taken to mean acceptance, no objection, or possibly agreeing in positive manner such as being happy about it. Warren in follow-ups makes it clear that he does not mean the child-sacrificers are happy about what they do, as the loss of a precious child is a grievous but (to their minds) neccessary loss. Hence the intent is that those who (begrudgingly or not) accept Infant Damnation accept the doom of a child as part of their system’s idea of God’s sovereign right to throw anyone He pleases into hell.
Following this off the cuff quip during a multi-hour stream, a portion was clipped and innocuously posted by Great Light Studios:
Various Calvinists including one James White took umbrage that McGrew was allegedly accusing all Calvinists of being happy to transactionally exchange the eternal fate of their babies in order to secure theirs, calling him a liar and questioning his own salvation. This led to several explanations & responses back and forth, each side not backing down, exacerbated by the fact that commentors jumping on board the wagon often don’t go to the firsthand sources but merely rely on what someone else said about who said what. (To avoid this, link appended in comments here.)
The hashtagged videos are out there on YouTube for the discerning listener to make their own sober judgment.
Calvinists will often try to shame any of us who associate with or even quote Warren McGrew – most often because he holds to Dynamic Omniscience. It’s a form of attempted Guilt By Association, Poisoning The Well, and Genetic Fallacy.
Apparently Calvinists have also been showing approval for Tyler Vela’s material, most recently regarding #BaalGate – you know, the vehemently anti-Provisionist Calvinist who apostatized and says Jesus was a looney and YHWH evolved from a Megazeus pagan deity, but still says the Bible teaches Calvinism and is still vehemently anti-Provisionist.
So… Sorry-not-sorry, the Argument From Association With Idol Killer has zero legitimacy to me.
Obligatory noted quote by noted Calvinist attached.
Bear with me here because this is NOT a stale old take like you hear from the anti-Provisionists.
I’m sure you have heard current-Calvinists deny that there is such thing as a ‘former Calvinist’. Why, if they REALLY understood the Doctrines of Grace, they would never have left Calvinism! All those claims and solemn testimonies and even past recordings of them spouting TULIP-ey stuff? Lies and fabrication!
Well, here I am to tell you that we might as well go all the way with such claims. ‘FORMER CALVINISTS’ DO NOT EXIST.
Don’t get me wrong here, I am not saying that those who claim to have left Calvinism are being dishonest about once having affirmed Calvinism, in whatever form.
I am saying THOSE PEOPLE THEMSELVES ARE NOT REAL HUMANS IN THE FIRST PLACE. They do not exist outside of cyberspace.
After all, if current-Calvinists are willing to dismiss all standard evidence that these ‘people’ used to believe in Calvinism (and eyewitness testimony is evidence, go look up some Cold Case Christianity by J Warner Wallace videos)… Then to take such a stance to its logical conclusion, why believe ANYTHING these ‘people’ claim about themselves? Including that they are actual existent people?
Warren McGrew? Leighton Flowers? Tim Stratton? Tyler Fowler? Joshua Davidson Katherine Witherell? Jason Breda? Michael L Brown? Alana L? Kevin Thompson? Anyone else who is alleged to have Left Calvinism? *pffffffffffffffffft!*
I have never met any of these alleged ‘people’ in real life. How do I know they actually exist outside of teh Interwebs? They’re probably all troll accounts, set up by the Chicoms to discredit the BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY of Calvinism. Their ex-Calvinist testimonies are lies, and their entire existence is a lie! And even if I did meet them, they’d surely be Truman Show-esque plants designed SOLELY to fool me into tumbling back into the Matrix.
And throw in James White too, he is OBVIOUSLY a professional paid actor who is hired by those sneaky anti-Calvinists to portray Calvinists in the most obnoxious, offensive and self-inconsistent manner possible and dishonestly steer church opinion away from the TRUE GOSPEL of TULIP! He’s probably not even really bald, and those coogi sweaters are just tax-deductible stage costumes that are unwearable outside in public like why ABBA wore such ridiculous stuff (look it up sheeple!).
And all of you ‘members’ reading and reacting to this post? Nice try with your human-looking ‘profile pics’, but you gotta wake up pretty early in the morning to pull one over ME, you Skynet bots!
………Come to think of it, how do YOU know that I exist? How do *I* know that I myself am a real person, and not just a brain in a vat? Thanks for attending my TED Talk on hyper-skepticism.
NB: I’d credit a certain member with inspiring this post by his dismissal of Warren McGrew as a ‘fake ex-Calvinist’, but xe is clearly just a figment of my Lotus Eater Machine as well. You know who you are……. OR DO YOU???
The following is a more of pastoral post that does involve some concepts about libertarian free will.
Watch this clip from Shrek 2, where they have an argument. Focus on 20 seconds onwards, where Fiona suddenly realizes she was about to say something hurtful. She pauses, but then Shrek eggs her on and you can see her expression change as she DECIDES to go ahead with saying it.
I bet that felt good to Fiona when she did it – she DESERVED to let her temper loose! Shrek was asking for it!
In my experience, this is what ‘Losing Your Temper’ is really like. There is no “I couldn’t help it, I lost my temper” – there is only “I CHOSE to throw my temper”.
But why does it feel like sometimes, we really do react instantly with anger? There seems to be no Buffer Time between the provocation and our seemingly reflexive outburst of anger.
I believe this is why Paul likened our spiritual walk, growth and maturity to athletics and sports. When we first start out exercising, we can barely do a few pushups or run a lap before getting winded, tired and sore. But keep at it for weeks, and gradually our body grows and gets used to it. We had weak muscles and no worthwhile physical capacity to speak of, but eventually we can do much more physical exertion.
The same goes for things like self-control, controlling one’s temper, consciously deciding not to dwell on bad thoughts or temptations. When we have not trained our spiritual and emotional self, we have a weak self-control and no worthwhile self-conscious capacity to speak of – we have no Buffer Time for something like throwing our temper.
It is my personal experience that just like physical exercise, learning to control my temper takes conscious, repeated effort. Just like the inability to run a marathon at first, the Buffer Time is pathetic to start with. But by continuing to remind myself and exercise self-control whenever I realize I am tempted to throw my temper, I find that the Buffer Time where I have a clear ‘Fiona’ realization about this gradually increases – little by little, day by day.
The flip-side also is true – like the alleged Native American advice about Two Wolves Fighting Inside You, the one you feed will win. While exercising self-control, starve out negative thoughts and emotions by consciously refusing to indulge in them. Just like the slow start to exercise, it won’t be easy going or fast progress at first. But gradually you will find that those vices tug at you less and less.
That is the encouragement I want to give you – no, it certainly won’t be quick or easy, but it CAN be done with patience and perseverance. The reward is there if you’re willing to work towards it.
I will leave you with some exhortations from Scripture:
Take every thought captive to obey Christ – 2 Corinthians 10:5
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. – 1 Corinthians 10:13
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. – 2 Corinthians 3:18
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. – 1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. – Hebrews 12:1-4
I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. I can do all things through him who strengthens me. – Philippians 4:12-13
Firstly there is way too much IQ concentrated at one end of the table here, lol!
But secondly and the main point I want to make, is that from around 33:00 onwards John Lennox recounts several times where his polite, gentle demeanor won over opponents more than any intelletual points he made.
This is similar to Leighton Flowers, who has plenty of testimonies from listeners who disagreed with his views but gave him a chance to make his case due to his gentlemanly attitude.
Believers today may have forgotten that we are never promised a good, comfortable, prosperous life by following Jesus. We are instead promised persecution like our Master faced (Jn 15:20), tribulation (Jn 16:33), and even death (Mt 24:9) – not just from mortal persecutors but spiritual as well (Eph 6:12).
To decide to follow Christ is not signing up for a country club. It is signing up for a lifelong tour of duty on the front lines. It is to take up our crosses and charge onto the battlefield. We forge ahead on a trail marked with His shed blood, because He was the first to the battlefront, leading us by example.
Expect and welcome suffering, refining and often painful growth with the V-Day waiting only in the next life – and you will be far better prepared in heart and mind for the war and strife soldiers of Christ must face.
Stealth Calvinism refers to a phenomenon whereby Calvinists infiltrate nonCalvinist churches – including ones which specifically state that they do NOT want to hire a pastor who espouses Calvinism as it would go in opposition to the church’s beliefs – by hiding, obfuscating or outright lying about their true beliefs until they can subvert, overtake and split the congregation. You can search this group for keyword ‘stealth’ to see plenty of testimonies by members about encountering this behaviour.
Well by way of contrast, here is Jason Breda (of YouTube channel Living Christian) who became a Calvinist while attending his Calvinistic church, and then by studying the prooftexts in context came to stop believing that Calvinism is Biblical… Just before his church asked him to become the pastor!
What do you think he did then, having the perfect opportunity to do a ‘Stealth NonCalvinism’ since he had both the perfect cover (being assumed to be fully Calvinist by the leadership) and the perfect opportunity (being offered a pastorship where he could slowly turn the congregation to nonCalvinism without suspicion)?
Spoiler, he took the honest path and told the leadership about his soteriological stance – thus not getting the pastorship.
Yup, he went ahead and told the truth – y’know, probably since he no longer holds a theology that teaches a God who commands one thing but makes people do another (Revealed vs Secret Will), or deludes people unconditionally rather than judicially (deity of deception and Calvinist usage of Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar & Potter texts), or tricks people into thinking they’re saved in order to torment them worse (Evanescent Grace).
In essence, what he did was the polar opposite of Stealth Calvinism.
1:32:50 “Guys, if you understood what this says you would all agree with me, this debate would be over, but you don’t know what this means, so I’m gonna have to spend this entire debate explaining it to you why are we here – because of your ignorance. I thought about starting like that just to see what would happen.”
Free thinking, but not a Free Thinker.
A Christian and a scientist, but not a Christian Scientist.
Believing in a universal church, but not a Catholic.
Trying to be a saint in these latter days, but not a Latter Day Saint.
A witness for Jehovah, but not a Jehovah's Witness.
Sumitted to God, but not a Muslim.
Seeking knowledge, but not a Gnostic.
Rational in thinking, but not a Rationalist.
Upholding humanity, but not a Humanist.
A supporter of liberation, but not a Liberal.
A supporter of democracy, but not a Democrat.
Acknowledging the importance of social values, but not a Socialist.
Seeking and valuing truth, but not a Truther.
THE SCOTTTCAST 